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stats to keep track of

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  • bchaikin@aol.com
    dean - i agree...one stat i d really like to see compiled by the league is for turnovers forced - a stat for any turnover where a steal is not given credit
    Message 1 of 3 , Oct 29, 2001
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      dean -

      i agree...one stat i'd really like to see compiled by the league is for "turnovers forced"  - a stat for any turnover where a steal is not given credit for. better yet, what i would like to see is that every time a turnover is committed but a steal not credited, that a defender be given credit for a "turnover forced"....

      now you know as well as i do that half or more of all of these "turnovers forced" will in actual fact have nothing to do with the defender given credit for it, but in the long run patterns will emerge of those players that do indeed force the most turnovers. any turnover that wasn't actually forced i'd just give credit to the defender guarding the player that committed the turnover at that moment. even a 3 sec call i'd credit a turnover forced to the man closest to the player it was called on. zone or no zone credit a turnover forced to the player closest. this may not always be easy but a statistician used to crediting assists and such would get the hang of it eventually...

      bob chaikin
      bchaikin@...
    • Dean Oliver
      ... for ... given ... a ... given ... these turnovers ... given credit ... that do ... forced i d ... the ... forced to ... credit a ... but a ... of it ...
      Message 2 of 3 , Oct 30, 2001
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        --- In APBR_analysis@y..., bchaikin@a... wrote:
        > dean -
        >
        > i agree...one stat i'd really like to see compiled by the league is
        for
        > "turnovers forced" - a stat for any turnover where a steal is not
        given
        > credit for. better yet, what i would like to see is that every time
        a
        > turnover is committed but a steal not credited, that a defender be
        given
        > credit for a "turnover forced"....
        >
        > now you know as well as i do that half or more of all of
        these "turnovers
        > forced" will in actual fact have nothing to do with the defender
        given credit
        > for it, but in the long run patterns will emerge of those players
        that do
        > indeed force the most turnovers. any turnover that wasn't actually
        forced i'd
        > just give credit to the defender guarding the player that committed
        the
        > turnover at that moment. even a 3 sec call i'd credit a turnover
        forced to
        > the man closest to the player it was called on. zone or no zone
        credit a
        > turnover forced to the player closest. this may not always be easy
        but a
        > statistician used to crediting assists and such would get the hang
        of it
        > eventually...

        This is one in my spreadsheet. I allow (since I ain't the NBA)
        forced TO's to be awarded as halves, too, so that the guy guarding
        the man with the ball can get half and the guy who doubles can get
        half, for instance. Same thing with forced misses. Very simple, but
        very important pieces of info.

        I also agree that recording of steals is pretty haphazard. I follow
        the game on the internet as I score it and there are always a few
        calls that I just don't understand. Sometimes a guy not even in the
        play will get a steal. That's the worst. I do think that steals are
        often poorly awarded, too. The guy on the ball often forces a bad
        pass through pressure, then the guy who picks off the pass was
        terribly out of position but gets the steal.

        Blocks are another one that I question.

        (I noticed last night a pattern in studying the Lakers last season.
        Basically their defense picked up significantly in the playoffs. And
        I always wondered why. I think I finally identified "who", which
        links a little bit to the why. This is for later....)

        Dean Oliver
      • Dean Oliver
        ... follow ... the ... are ... Last night, the Raptors set a record for blocks with 24. Pretty dubious record. Dave Cowens expressed some doubt, too:
        Message 3 of 3 , Nov 8, 2001
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          --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "Dean Oliver" <deano@t...> wrote:
          > I also agree that recording of steals is pretty haphazard. I
          follow
          > the game on the internet as I score it and there are always a few
          > calls that I just don't understand. Sometimes a guy not even in
          the
          > play will get a steal. That's the worst. I do think that steals
          are
          > often poorly awarded, too. The guy on the ball often forces a bad
          > pass through pressure, then the guy who picks off the pass was
          > terribly out of position but gets the steal.
          >
          > Blocks are another one that I question.

          Last night, the Raptors "set a record" for blocks with 24. Pretty
          dubious record. Dave Cowens expressed some doubt, too:

          ``Maybe some of the layups that we missed were so bad that they gave
          them a block. I don't know, 24 blocks, that's a lot of blocks.''

          I've definitely seen many cases where guys are awarded blocks when
          someone does simply miss badly. That's what makes efforts at scoring
          the games, like what Stuart is doing or I've tried to do with the
          defensive stuff, particularly hard. Whereas baseball scoring is slow
          and not controversial, basketball is fast and the official scorers
          make some interesting decisions.
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