Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: Individual workouts

Expand Messages
  • harlanzo
    ... I ... LeBron. The thing is with Lebron is he will be 18/19 next year and there have not really been any great 18 yr olds and only a few great 19 yr olds.
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 21, 2003
      --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Dean Oliver" <deano@r...>
      wrote:

      > I actually do expect a lot from LeBron this year. More precisely,
      I
      > expect more from the Cavs. In the weak East, playoffs are a
      > possibility. They should have been better this year. There are a
      > couple statistical signs that they tanked this year to get
      LeBron.


      The thing is with Lebron is he will be 18/19 next year and there
      have not really been any great 18 yr olds and only a few great 19 yr
      olds. Lebron has a man's body so he might do better than most but
      look at the list of teenaged nbaers:



      Player Season Age MPG PPG RPG APG FG%
      Darryl Dawkins 75-76 18 4.5 2.4 1.3 0.1 0.501
      Bill Willoughby 75-76 18 14.1 4.7 4.6 0.5 0.398
      Moses Malone 74-75(A) 19 38.6 18.8 14.6 1.1 0.571
      Shawn Kemp 89-90 20 13.8 6.5 4.3 0.3 0.479
      Kevin Garnett 95-96 19 28.7 10.4 6.3 1.8 0.491
      Kobe Bryant 96-97 18 15.5 7.6 1.9 1.3 0.417
      Jermaine O'Neal 96-97 18 10.2 4.1 2.8 0.2 0.451
      Tracy McGrady 97-98 18 18.4 7.1 4.2 1.5 0.451
      Rashard Lewis 98-99 19 7.3 2.4 1.3 0.2 0.365
      Al Harrington 98-99 18 7.6 2.1 1.9 0.2 0.321
      Jon Bender 99-00 18 5.4 2.7 0.9 0.1 0.329
      Darius Miles 00-01 19 26.3 9.4 5.9 1.2 0.505
      Deshawn Stevenson 00-01 19 7.3 2.2 0.7 0.5 0.341
      Kwame Brown 01-o2 19 14.3 4.5 3.5 0.8 0.387
      Tyson Chandler 01-o2 19 19.6 6.1 4.8 0.8 0.497
      Eddy Curry 01-o2 19 16.1 6.7 3.8 0.3 0.501
      Desagana Diop 01-o2 19 6.1 1.4 0.9 0.3 0.414
      Amare Stoudemire 02-o3 20 31.5 13.4 8.9 0.9 0.471

      I know the list is a bit hard to read so you can link to an article
      I wrote on the subject with a legible table:

      http://www.hoopsanalyst.com/amare.htm
      (not meant to be as shameless a plug at it seems)

      anyway, the upshot is outside of Moses in the ABA, no teenager has
      been great his first year. Lebron may be force-fed the ball so he
      may buck the trend but past precedent is not in his favor.
    • bchaikin@aol.com
      talking about lebron james: If he somehow turns out to be less than awesome (Isaiah Rider).... if you read lenny wilkens autobiography ( Unguarded ,
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 21, 2003

        talking about lebron james:

        If he somehow turns out to be less than awesome (Isaiah Rider)....

        if you read lenny wilkens' autobiography ("Unguarded", copyright2000), you'll get a 1st hand perspective of what it was like to have to coach j.r. rider. in a word - unpleasant. selfish, certainly not team oriented, no defense. a hard worker, but strictly for his own personal goals and not those of the team, and not one to take instruction let alone direction from a coach. everything i have seen and/or heard about lebron to date is just the opposite. lets hope (at least from the cavaliers' perspective) that's the case...

        There were questions of strength and whether he would ever be able to hit that jumper.

        i remember this being said about kobe bryant. but if you've seen lebron james play, you'd know he has what appears to be classic form on his J. plus he appears to be a good shooter for a 6'8" player, and i don't mean glen rice form. i mean a player who can shoot a jumper but also create his own shot and get to the basket like he was a guard. if this kid was to get four years of seasoning in a good college program, he'd be the envy of the whole planet. as it is he'll get that seasoning in the nba, and 2-3 years should be enough....

        I actually do expect a lot from LeBron this year.  More precisely, I expect more from the Cavs.

        i sure hope you're right but in all honesty i think you're dreaming. we're talking about a team that won all of 17 games last year and got outscored by a huge 9.6 points per game, by far the worst point differential in the league last year and also the worst point differential in the league by a team in six seasons (since the 97-98 nuggets). add to that the fact that the cavs haven't won more than 32 games in the last 4 years, and have consecutively lost more games each season in these past four seasons (32, 30, 29, and 17). if they won 30 games in 03-04 i'd be happy, 35 and i'd be ecstatic. anything better than that would be gravy. i don't think there's any chance a 19 year old kid could have the same effect on a pro team like a larry bird or david robinson - someone who could turn a team completely around. those two had far more seasoning under their respective belts...

        i'm guessing they'll slip james right into the small forward spot and just plain leave him there, alongside ilgauskas, boozer, ricky davis, and god know who at pg, maybe wagner (the rumor here is they are looking to acquire a veteran pg for 25-30 min/g to ease any ball-handling responsibilities to james slowly). with ilgauskas and davis being looked upon for scoring, boozer for defense and rebounding, and hopefully a point guard no worse than henry bibby in his prime, james should be able to progress on his own and not be looked upon to take over games in his rookie year. hopefully he'll have his moments though...

        bob chaikin
        bchaikin@...










      • Dean Oliver
        ... copyright2000), you ll ... j.r. rider. ... defense. a ... of the team, ... everything i ... lets hope ... Let s hope from everyone s perspective that s the
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 22, 2003
          --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, bchaikin@a... wrote:
          >
          > talking about lebron james:
          >
          > If he somehow turns out to be less than awesome (Isaiah Rider)....
          >
          > if you read lenny wilkens' autobiography ("Unguarded",
          copyright2000), you'll
          > get a 1st hand perspective of what it was like to have to coach
          j.r. rider.
          > in a word - unpleasant. selfish, certainly not team oriented, no
          defense. a
          > hard worker, but strictly for his own personal goals and not those
          of the team,
          > and not one to take instruction let alone direction from a coach.
          everything i
          > have seen and/or heard about lebron to date is just the opposite.
          lets hope
          > (at least from the cavaliers' perspective) that's the case...
          >

          Let's hope from everyone's perspective that's the case. Paul Silas
          was probably a good hire there, but I dunno for sure.

          >
          > i sure hope you're right but in all honesty i think you're
          dreaming.

          As you pointed out, they have some good talent there.

          What also appears to have happened is that they tanked a lot of the
          season.

          They have several prominent young players who are likely to get
          better, including Boozer, Davis, Miles (whose season was a HUGE
          dropoff from his Clipper days), and (maybe) Wagner.

          > we're
          > talking about a team that won all of 17 games last year and got
          outscored by a
          > huge 9.6 points per game, by far the worst point differential in
          the league
          > last year and also the worst point differential in the league by a
          team in six
          > seasons (since the 97-98 nuggets). add to that the fact that the
          cavs haven't
          > won more than 32 games in the last 4 years, and have consecutively
          lost more
          > games each season in these past four seasons (32, 30, 29, and 17).

          Not a sustainable pattern.

          > if they won 30
          > games in 03-04 i'd be happy, 35 and i'd be ecstatic. anything
          better than
          > that would be gravy.

          Dumb luck gets them to a 25 win season. Not sure what the over/under
          will be on the Cavs this coming year, but if it's 25, I take the over.

          > i don't think there's any chance a 19 year old kid could
          > have the same effect on a pro team like a larry bird or david
          robinson - someone
          > who could turn a team completely around. those two had far more
          seasoning
          > under their respective belts...

          Look at the comparisons, though, between Bird's Boston team and
          Robinson's Spurs team. You've pointed them out yourself. A series
          of ever worsening years, some decent young and old talent. I'll note
          also that the teams also got new coaches around that time (not a
          surprise with ever worsening teams). I'll note that the defenses on
          those teams before the arrival of the saviors were horrible, at their
          peak worst right before the arrival (Cleveland was pretty equally bad
          in '02 and '03, however). I also wouldn't doubt that the Cavs trade
          one of their young guys with potential to get an older guy who helps
          right away.

          >
          > i'm guessing they'll slip james right into the small forward spot
          and just
          > plain leave him there, alongside ilgauskas, boozer, ricky davis,
          and god know
          > who at pg, maybe wagner (the rumor here is they are looking to
          acquire a veteran
          > pg for 25-30 min/g to ease any ball-handling responsibilities to
          james
          > slowly).

          ...like I said...

          > with ilgauskas and davis being looked upon for scoring, boozer for
          defense
          > and rebounding, and hopefully a point guard no worse than henry
          bibby in his
          > prime, james should be able to progress on his own and not be
          looked upon to
          > take over games in his rookie year. hopefully he'll have his
          moments though...

          I don't know James all that well. I didn't see him as much on TV as
          others. What I saw was exceptional. But, more relevantly for the
          Cavs, what I see in their numbers, in the pattern of the season, is a
          team that should not have been so bad last year and is primed to get
          better with a small infusion of talent. They are getting a big
          infusion of talent.

          So who in the East is going to take the dive as a result? Haven't
          thought through that yet. If it's New Orleans, though, look for
          Silas to get a few votes for Coach of the Year even though he has
          King James.

          DeanO
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.