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Re: Plus/Minus Numbers

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  • ssims22000
    ... I saw them in a couple of articles on ESPN. I expect they re buried in the archives by now. Only Duncan s and Ginobili s numbers were provided. ... of
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 17, 2003
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      --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Mike G" <msg_53@h...> wrote:
      > How do you get these numbers? At the ESB site, all I can get is a
      > plug for a book, on baseball.
      >
      I saw them in a couple of articles on ESPN. I expect they're
      buried in the archives by now. Only Duncan's and Ginobili's numbers
      were provided.

      >
      >
      > I imagine he will be starting next year. I agree, he was the one
      > player (other than Duncan) who did not 'stiffen up' when the rest
      of
      > the team went into their 4th-quarter torpors.

      More important, in my estimation, is that I cannot remember a
      single big Spurs run in which Ginobili was not on the floor.

      --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "John Hollinger"
      <alleyoop2@y...> wrote:
      >Because much of the effect you were seeing wasn't Ginobili ON the
      >floor, it was Stephen Jackson OFF it. Jackson had a very solid
      >regular season but was a gigantic turnover machine in the Finals;
      >Ginobili was always his replacement.
      >
      I don't think this is as significant a factor as you think.
      Jackson played almost 34 minutes per game, while Ginobili logged
      over 27 a game. Even assuming one of them was always on the floor,
      this still means that Ginobili and Jackson played together for more
      than 13 minutes each game (or almost half of Manu's total minutes).
      Jackson had his ups and downs in the playoffs, but he only averaged
      2.8 turnovers per game (hardly a turnover machine). Certainly, he
      seemed to star prominently in those Spurs' 4th quarter collapses,
      but no more prominently than Ginobili starred in the Spurs' great
      4th quarter runs - the ones that won the last three series for them.

      >In general, I haven't been impressed by what +/- stats show,
      >because
      >a lot of the numbers aren't making sense. It isn't humanly possible
      >for a team to be 25 points better with one player in the lineup or
      >not; that's saying that player turns the a 10-win team into the 96
      >Bulls. Methinks there's other cause/effects buried in the data that
      >we're not seeing.

      I'm sure there are other factors at work. The Spurs probably
      would not be 27 points worse without Tim Duncan - but they would be
      a lot worse. When a player as important as Duncan goes out, there
      is a period of adjustment to the radically different offensive and
      defensive flow the game has without him. Since Duncan is only out 6
      minutes per game, there really is not time for the Spurs to adjust
      to his absence. Also, the opposing team usually tries to make a
      push while the opposing team's best player is out. If Duncan missed
      an entire game, both of these factors would smooth out. I still
      think that San Antonio would win no more than 30 games without
      Duncan for a whole season. So maybe the Spurs are actually only 10-
      13 points better with Duncan over a whole game.
      As for Ginobili, I mentioned that I cannot remember him not being
      on the floor for any of the Spurs' big runs. The Spurs in the
      playoffs were a team of runs, and we often saw 20-point turnarounds
      in the same game. If Ginobili was present in a disproportionate
      number of these positive runs, then given his limited minutes, its
      not really surprising that his +/- would be so high. Now, as to
      what effect Ginobili had on causing these runs - that is a matter
      for discussion.
    • Mike G
      ... only averaged ... collapses,... My impression was also that when the Spurs big leads were beginning to teeter, Jackson was inevitably attempting an
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 17, 2003
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        --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "ssims22000" <ssims2@i...>
        wrote:
        > [Stephen] Jackson had his ups and downs in the playoffs, but he
        only averaged
        > 2.8 turnovers per game (hardly a turnover machine). Certainly, he
        > seemed to star prominently in those Spurs' 4th quarter
        collapses,...

        My impression was also that when the Spurs' big leads were beginning
        to teeter, Jackson was inevitably attempting an impossible pass and
        turning it over.

        His turnover rate doesn't seem startlingly high; but here are the
        guys ahead of him for the playoffs:

        Per-36-minutes, etc

        3.9 Malone,Karl Uta
        3.9 Pierce,Paul Bos
        3.6 Kidd,Jason NJ
        3.4 Webber,Chris Sac
        3.4 Stoudemire,Amare Pho
        3.3 Marbury,Stephon Pho
        3.3 Iverson,Allen Phi
        3.3 Stockton,John Uta
        3.3 Mcgrady,Tracy Orl
        3.3 Walker,Antoine Bos
        3.3 Hamilton,Richard Det
        3.1 Bryant,Kobe LAL
        3.1 Jackson,Stephen San

        That's 12 players with greater TO rates. Among them, only Stockton
        was less of a scorer; and only Stoudamire and Hamilton did less
        passing.

        So Jackson is well ahead of the pack in TO/(everything else) ratio,
        in this group. In other words, he doesn't do enough to justify 3
        turnovers in 36 minutes.


        > The Spurs probably
        > would not be 27 points worse without Tim Duncan - but they would
        be
        > a lot worse.

        When I saw this number 27, I thought it must be pretty close to
        correct. What player on the Spurs doesn't have his efficiency
        improved by the double and triple-teaming of Duncan? Would Robinson
        have had those open dunks? Would Bowen et al have had the open
        looks?

        The Spurs didn't steamroll their way to the title. Their average
        score of 95-89 is pretty humble, actually.

        I can easily imagine -- without Duncan -- a first-round exit with
        average score around 78-99.

        > ... I still
        > think that San Antonio would win no more than 30 games without
        > Duncan for a whole season. So maybe the Spurs are actually only
        10-
        > 13 points better with Duncan over a whole game.

        The Spurs without Duncan are probably no better than Memphis or
        Cleveland.


        > As for Ginobili, I mentioned that I cannot remember him not
        being
        > on the floor for any of the Spurs' big runs. The Spurs in the
        > playoffs were a team of runs, and we often saw 20-point
        turnarounds
        > in the same game. If Ginobili was present in a disproportionate
        > number of these positive runs, then given his limited minutes, its
        > not really surprising that his +/- would be so high. Now, as to
        > what effect Ginobili had on causing these runs - that is a matter
        > for discussion.

        The Spurs' affliction the last few years has been stagnation on
        offense. Ginobili is anything but stale.
      • Leo Walsh
        ... teams drafting the best players available in the draft. Do you have any books, references or formulas to recommend that would help me detrimine the best
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 18, 2003
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          --- ssims22000 <ssims2@...> wrote:
          > Hi,
          >
          > I'm attempting to play a historical replay based on
          teams drafting the best players available in the
          draft.

          Do you have any books, references or formulas to
          recommend that would help me detrimine the best
          players in each draft?

          Any direction would be greatly appreciated.

          Thank you in advance,

          Leo Walsh

          __________________________________
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        • Mike G
          ... Apologies to Simmy for failing to respond (or failing to see) a previous post on this subject. Here s *one* rating based on what I call career equivalent
          Message 4 of 8 , Jun 18, 2003
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            --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, Leo Walsh <lojowo@y...> wrote:
            >
            > --- ssims22000 <ssims2@i...> wrote:
            > > Hi,
            > >
            > > I'm attempting to play a historical replay based on
            > teams drafting the best players available in the
            > draft.
            >
            > Do you have any books, references or formulas to
            > recommend that would help me detrimine the best
            > players in each draft?
            >
            > Any direction would be greatly appreciated.
            >
            > Thank you in advance,
            >
            > Leo Walsh

            Apologies to Simmy for failing to respond (or failing to see) a
            previous post on this subject.

            Here's *one* rating based on what I call 'career equivalent totals'.
            This system attempts to 'standardize' career totals by accounting for
            the various milieus (i.e., era, team styles) in which the totals were
            accumulated.

            I'll be happy to explain further or just pass along the spreadsheets.

            This list will be pretty short for some early years. It also hasn't
            been updated for a year or two. It includes only players who amassed
            10,000 or more 'equivalent' points + rebounds + etc.

            (I guess the cutoff changes to 15,000 at some point; I've also found
            one error, in 1989, but I don't have time to track it down. So
            consider this a sample..)

            1953
            15987 Carl Braun
            10855 Earl Lloyd
            26842
            1954
            23044 Clyde Lovellette
            17928 George Yardley
            15051 Ray Felix
            10821 Jack George
            66844
            1955
            40542 Bob Pettit
            24754 Johnny Kerr
            16064 Gene Shue
            15768 Larry Costello
            14492 Frank Ramsey
            111620
            1956
            23984 Jack Twyman
            16735 Tom Gola
            13791 Kenny Sears
            12590 Walter Dukes
            8556 Maurice Stokes
            75656
            1957
            40742 Bill Russell
            24770 Cliff Hagan
            22868 Richie Guerin
            20429 Tom Heinsohn
            16893 Willie Naulls
            125702
            1958
            23907 Sam Jones
            23907
            1959
            39390 Elgin Baylor
            30604 Hal Greer
            18628 Guy Rodgers
            17239 Wayne Embry
            10732 Connie Dierking
            10089 K.C. Jones
            126682
            1960
            60802 Wilt Chamberlain
            28284 Bailey Howell
            20637 Dick Barnett
            19889 Johnny Green
            19302 Rudy LaRusso
            11274 Tom Hawkins
            11196 Dave Gambee
            171384
            1961
            44627 Oscar Robertson
            40353 Jerry West
            28604 Lenny Wilkens
            19291 Bob Boozer
            14848 Satch Sanders
            14380 Don Ohl
            11710 Darrall Imhoff
            10346 Al Attles
            184159
            1962
            35100 Walt Bellamy
            17887 Ray Scott
            15707 Tom Meschery
            11051 Adrian Smith
            79745
            1963
            41194 John Havlicek
            28761 Chet Walker
            26543 Zelmo Beaty
            24801 Dave Debusschere
            23216 Bill Bridges
            18508 Don Nelson
            17721 Leroy Ellis
            14293 Kevin Loughery
            12951 Terry Dischinger
            207988
            1964
            28596 Nate Thurmond
            28052 Jerry Lucas
            16627 Gus Johnson
            13389 Don Kojis
            86664
            1965
            25975 Paul Silas
            21517 Willis Reed
            19579 Happy Hairston
            18687 Jeff Mullins
            17201 Joe Caldwell
            13518 Walt Hazzard
            12568 Larry Jones
            129045
            1966
            36776 Rick Barry
            26389 Gail Goodrich
            25293 Billy Cunnngham
            20338 Dick VanArsdale
            17148 Jerry Sloan
            17119 Tom VanArsdale
            14266 Jim Washington
            13331 Jon McGlocklin
            12439 Keith Erickson
            183099
            1967
            25288 Dave Bing
            23947 Lou Hudson
            19025 Bob Love
            17926 Archie Clark
            17691 Jack Marin
            16630 Dick Snyder
            16626 Cazzie Russell
            16228 Freddie Lewis
            12310 Clyde Lee
            11640 Jim Barnett
            10439 John Block
            10352 Bill Melchionni
            198102
            1968
            28601 Walt Frazier
            23812 Earl Monroe
            20983 Louie Dampier
            19565 Mel Daniels
            17840 Connie Hawkins
            16890 Jimmy Jones
            15769 Roger Brown
            143460
            1969
            45587 Elvin Hayes
            29856 Wes Unseld
            23460 Ron Boone
            98903
            1970
            75001 Kareem
            26007 Bob Dandridge
            25721 Spencer Haywood
            22036 Jo Jo White
            17942 Norm Van Lier
            16752 Mack Calvin
            15236 Willie Wise
            198695
            1971
            41200 Dan Issel
            34452 Bob Lanier
            27811 Dave Cowens
            25375 Billy Paultz
            25303 Nate Archibald
            24947 Calvin Murphy
            24173 Sam Lacey
            20630 Rudy Tomjanovich
            20319 Pete Maravich
            19198 Charlie Scott
            18794 John Johnson
            282202
            1972
            52525 Julius Erving
            49025 Artis Gilmore
            28753 George McGinnis
            23451 Randy Smith
            20850 Fred Brown
            20127 Sidney Wicks
            17878 Mike Newlin
            17393 Tom Owens
            17165 Dave Robisch
            15961 Clifford Ray
            263128
            1973
            35815 George Gervin
            30420 Bob McAdoo
            20325 Paul Westphal
            17383 Jim Chones
            15578 James Silas
            15549 Don Buse
            135070
            1974
            25683 Caldwell Jones
            20281 Larry Kenon
            18049 Swen Nater
            64013
            1975
            52972 Moses Malone
            27495 Maurice Lucas
            25196 Bobby Jones
            23415 Jamaal Wilkes
            21314 Mickey Johnson
            20616 John Drew
            20457 Truck Robinson
            19707 Billy Knight
            19035 Scott Wedman
            15035 Brian Winters
            245242
            1976
            27048 Alvan Adams
            23828 Gus Williams
            22511 World Free
            22167 Dan Roundfield
            18047 David Thompson
            17374 Darryl Dawkins
            16592 Junior Bridgeman
            16230 Mark Olberding
            16106 Ricky Sobers
            179903
            1977
            48340 Robert Parish
            35694 Alex English
            33928 Adrian Dantley
            29983 Dennis Johnsn
            19420 John Lucas
            167365
            1978
            34672 Jack Sikma
            27439 Walter Davis
            27168 Bernard King
            23457 James Edwards
            23149 Marques Johnson
            20912 Norm Nixon
            20639 Cedric Maxwell
            18712 Tree Rollins
            18327 Robert Reid
            17341 Greg Ballard
            17133 Rickey Green
            16930 Otis Birdsong
            16055 Ray Williams
            15932 Brad Davis
            297866
            1979
            28832 Maurice Cheeks
            26942 Reggie Theus
            23972 Mychal Thompson
            19373 Mike Mitchell
            18892 Purvis Short
            16086 Wayne Cooper
            15523 Terry Tyler
            15465 Mike Richardson
            15408 Dave Corzine
            15186 John Long
            195679
            1980
            44626 Larry Bird
            44300 Magic Johnson
            23221 Bill Cartwright
            22040 Sidney Moncrief
            19383 Vinnie Johnson
            17927 Michael Cooper
            17038 David Greenwood
            16531 Calvin Natt
            16507 Cliff Robinson I
            15881 Jim Paxson
            237454
            1981
            34312 Kevin McHale
            29905 Bill Laimbeer
            21143 Kiki Vanderweghe
            19690 Mike Gminski
            19094 James Donaldson
            18533 Rick Mahorn
            18486 JoeBarry Carroll
            15964 Darrell Griffith
            15210 Larry Smith
            192337
            1982
            35344 Buck Williams
            34280 Isiah Thomas
            31213 Larry Nance
            30212 Tom Chambers
            27198 Mark Aguirre
            26353 Eddie Johnson
            25046 Rolando Blackman
            22914 Danny Ainge
            21373 Herb Williams
            19233 Orlando Woolridge
            16984 Dan Schayes
            16226 Kelly Tripucka
            15825 Alton Lister
            322201
            1983
            37745 Dominique Wilkins
            32948 Terry Cummings
            29146 James Worthy
            21317 Ricky Pierce
            20286 Sleepy Floyd
            20240 Lafayette Lever
            17668 Mark Eaton
            16845 Paul Pressey
            16512 LaSalle Thompson
            212707
            1984
            40993 Clyde Drexler
            29413 Derek Harper
            27432 Dale Ellis
            25403 Byron Scott
            21944 Jeff Malone
            20306 Glenn Rivers
            19681 Thurl Bailey
            18312 Rodney McCray
            16625 Sedale Threatt
            15240 Mark West
            235349
            1985
            54666 Michael Jordan
            53688 Hakeem Olajuwon
            48938 Charles Barkley
            46087 John Stockton
            32920 Otis Thorpe
            29928 Sam Perkins
            28852 Kevin Willis
            23573 Jerome Kersey
            19739 Alvin Robertson
            18106 Vern Fleming
            16719 Antoine Carr
            16286 Jay Humphries
            15303 Craig Ehlo
            404805
            1986
            59000 Karl Malone
            45786 Patrick Ewing
            30612 Detlef Schrempf
            29206 Terry Porter
            29158 Charles Oakley
            27882 Chris Mullin
            27236 Joe Dumars
            26467 A.C. Green
            21168 Xavier McDaniel
            19057 Tyrone Corbin
            18971 Wayman Tisdale
            17701 Gerald Wilkins
            17684 Benoit Benjamin
            15715 Michael Adams
            15117 Spud Webb
            400760
            1987
            30911 Jeff Hornacek
            24840 Ron Harper
            24701 Dennis Rodman
            21538 Chuck Person
            21100 HotRod Williams
            21092 Mark Price
            20065 Brad Daugherty
            17034 Dell Curry
            16439 Johnny Newman
            15981 Nate McMillan
            213701
            1988
            38788 Scottie Pippen
            32974 Reggie Miller
            29042 Horace Grant
            26769 Kevin Johnson
            21068 Armon Gilliam
            20035 Derrick McKey
            17709 Muggsy Bogues
            17060 Kenny Smith
            16563 Olden Polynice
            220008
            1989
            27540 Mark Jackson
            26785 Mitch Richmond
            24995 Rod Strickland
            24650 Hersey Hawkins
            23408 Rik Smits
            20965 Dan Majerle
            19732 Danny Manning
            18115 John Starks
            17947 Avery Johnson
            17616 Rony Seikaly
            17312 Grant Long
            16265 Vernon Maxwell
            255330
            1990
            38409 David Robinson
            28812 Shawn Kemp
            24703 Tim Hardaway
            24651 Glen Rice
            23319 Mookie Blaylock
            23271 Vlade Divac
            22992 Cliff RobinsonII
            19339 Nick Anderson
            18388 Anthony Mason
            17524 Sean Elliott
            241408
            1991
            27531 Gary Payton
            19505 Derrick Coleman
            17374 Kendall Gill
            16184 Elden Campbell
            14182 Tyrone Hill
            94776
            1992
            23232 Dikembe Mutombo
            20315 Larry Johnson
            18343 Steve Smith
            16867 Terrell Brandon
            16426 Dale Davis
            16352 Kenny Anderson
            111535
            1993
            29991 Shaquille O'Neal
            22567 Alonzo Mourning
            16654 Christi Laettner
            16070 Latrell Sprewell
            15871 Tom Gugliotta
            14723 C.Weatherspoon
            115876
            1994
            16211 Penny Hardaway
            15781 Chris Webber
            14296 Nick Van Exel
            13937 Allan Houston
            13834 Toni Kukoc
            74059
            1995
            17806 Grant Hill
            13235 Jason Kidd
            13162 Glenn Robinson
            12501 Eddie Jones
            11969 Juwan Howard
            9588 Jalen Rose
            78261
            1996
            13221 Kevin Garnett
            11056 Mike Finley
            10885 Damon Stoudamire
            10490 Antonio McDyess
            10482 Arvydas Sabonis
            9523 Rasheed Wallace
            9486 Jerry Stackhouse
            75143
            1997
            10495 Allen Iverson
            8954 Antoine Walker
            8775 Stephon Marbury
            8450 Ray Allen
            8057 Kobe Bryant
            44731
            1998
            10172 Tim Duncan
            7382 Shareef A-Raheem
            17554


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          • Leo Walsh
            Thanks Mike, Thanks for your help. This rating will probably help also in determining the value of the player after his career has begun. I m sure I ll run
            Message 5 of 8 , Jun 18, 2003
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              Thanks Mike,

              Thanks for your help.

              This rating will probably help also in determining the
              value of the player after his career has begun.

              I'm sure I'll run into the situation that I will have
              too many minutes on one team while not enough on
              another.

              I'll also run into the situation that I have two small
              forwards ( for example ) and will have to move someone
              to balance out the minutes played.

              I'll have to balance minutes played somehow.
              --- Mike G <msg_53@...> wrote:
              > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, Leo Walsh
              > <lojowo@y...> wrote:
              > >
              > > --- ssims22000 <ssims2@i...> wrote:
              > > > Hi,
              > > >
              > > > I'm attempting to play a historical replay
              > based on
              > > teams drafting the best players available in the
              > > draft.
              > >
              > > Do you have any books, references or formulas to
              > > recommend that would help me detrimine the best
              > > players in each draft?
              > >
              > > Any direction would be greatly appreciated.
              > >
              > > Thank you in advance,
              > >
              > > Leo Walsh
              >
              > Apologies to Simmy for failing to respond (or
              > failing to see) a
              > previous post on this subject.
              >
              > Here's *one* rating based on what I call 'career
              > equivalent totals'.
              > This system attempts to 'standardize' career totals
              > by accounting for
              > the various milieus (i.e., era, team styles) in
              > which the totals were
              > accumulated.
              >
              > I'll be happy to explain further or just pass along
              > the spreadsheets.
              >
              > This list will be pretty short for some early years.
              > It also hasn't
              > been updated for a year or two. It includes only
              > players who amassed
              > 10,000 or more 'equivalent' points + rebounds + etc.
              >
              > (I guess the cutoff changes to 15,000 at some point;
              > I've also found
              > one error, in 1989, but I don't have time to track
              > it down. So
              > consider this a sample..)
              >
              > 1953
              > 15987 Carl Braun
              > 10855 Earl Lloyd
              > 26842
              > 1954
              > 23044 Clyde Lovellette
              > 17928 George Yardley
              > 15051 Ray Felix
              > 10821 Jack George
              > 66844
              > 1955
              > 40542 Bob Pettit
              > 24754 Johnny Kerr
              > 16064 Gene Shue
              > 15768 Larry Costello
              > 14492 Frank Ramsey
              > 111620
              > 1956
              > 23984 Jack Twyman
              > 16735 Tom Gola
              > 13791 Kenny Sears
              > 12590 Walter Dukes
              > 8556 Maurice Stokes
              > 75656
              > 1957
              > 40742 Bill Russell
              > 24770 Cliff Hagan
              > 22868 Richie Guerin
              > 20429 Tom Heinsohn
              > 16893 Willie Naulls
              > 125702
              > 1958
              > 23907 Sam Jones
              > 23907
              > 1959
              > 39390 Elgin Baylor
              > 30604 Hal Greer
              > 18628 Guy Rodgers
              > 17239 Wayne Embry
              > 10732 Connie Dierking
              > 10089 K.C. Jones
              > 126682
              > 1960
              > 60802 Wilt Chamberlain
              > 28284 Bailey Howell
              > 20637 Dick Barnett
              > 19889 Johnny Green
              > 19302 Rudy LaRusso
              > 11274 Tom Hawkins
              > 11196 Dave Gambee
              > 171384
              > 1961
              > 44627 Oscar Robertson
              > 40353 Jerry West
              > 28604 Lenny Wilkens
              > 19291 Bob Boozer
              > 14848 Satch Sanders
              > 14380 Don Ohl
              > 11710 Darrall Imhoff
              > 10346 Al Attles
              > 184159
              > 1962
              > 35100 Walt Bellamy
              > 17887 Ray Scott
              > 15707 Tom Meschery
              > 11051 Adrian Smith
              > 79745
              > 1963
              > 41194 John Havlicek
              > 28761 Chet Walker
              > 26543 Zelmo Beaty
              > 24801 Dave Debusschere
              > 23216 Bill Bridges
              > 18508 Don Nelson
              > 17721 Leroy Ellis
              > 14293 Kevin Loughery
              > 12951 Terry Dischinger
              > 207988
              > 1964
              > 28596 Nate Thurmond
              > 28052 Jerry Lucas
              > 16627 Gus Johnson
              > 13389 Don Kojis
              > 86664
              > 1965
              > 25975 Paul Silas
              > 21517 Willis Reed
              > 19579 Happy Hairston
              > 18687 Jeff Mullins
              > 17201 Joe Caldwell
              > 13518 Walt Hazzard
              > 12568 Larry Jones
              > 129045
              > 1966
              > 36776 Rick Barry
              > 26389 Gail Goodrich
              > 25293 Billy Cunnngham
              > 20338 Dick VanArsdale
              > 17148 Jerry Sloan
              > 17119 Tom VanArsdale
              > 14266 Jim Washington
              > 13331 Jon McGlocklin
              > 12439 Keith Erickson
              > 183099
              > 1967
              > 25288 Dave Bing
              > 23947 Lou Hudson
              > 19025 Bob Love
              > 17926 Archie Clark
              > 17691 Jack Marin
              > 16630 Dick Snyder
              > 16626 Cazzie Russell
              > 16228 Freddie Lewis
              > 12310 Clyde Lee
              > 11640 Jim Barnett
              > 10439 John Block
              > 10352 Bill Melchionni
              > 198102
              > 1968
              > 28601 Walt Frazier
              > 23812 Earl Monroe
              > 20983 Louie Dampier
              > 19565 Mel Daniels
              > 17840 Connie Hawkins
              > 16890 Jimmy Jones
              > 15769 Roger Brown
              > 143460
              > 1969
              > 45587 Elvin Hayes
              > 29856 Wes Unseld
              > 23460 Ron Boone
              > 98903
              > 1970
              > 75001 Kareem
              > 26007 Bob Dandridge
              > 25721 Spencer Haywood
              > 22036 Jo Jo White
              > 17942 Norm Van Lier
              > 16752 Mack Calvin
              > 15236 Willie Wise
              > 198695
              > 1971
              > 41200 Dan Issel
              > 34452 Bob Lanier
              > 27811 Dave Cowens
              > 25375 Billy Paultz
              > 25303 Nate Archibald
              > 24947 Calvin Murphy
              > 24173 Sam Lacey
              > 20630 Rudy Tomjanovich
              > 20319 Pete Maravich
              > 19198 Charlie Scott
              > 18794 John Johnson
              >
              === message truncated ===


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