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Re: Plus/Minus Numbers

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  • John Hollinger
    Because much of the effect you were seeing wasn t Ginobili ON the floor, it was Stephen Jackson OFF it. Jackson had a very solid regular season but was a
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 16 10:15 PM
      Because much of the effect you were seeing wasn't Ginobili ON the
      floor, it was Stephen Jackson OFF it. Jackson had a very solid
      regular season but was a gigantic turnover machine in the Finals;
      Ginobili was always his replacement.

      In general, I haven't been impressed by what +/- stats show, because
      a lot of the numbers aren't making sense. It isn't humanly possible
      for a team to be 25 points better with one player in the lineup or
      not; that's saying that player turns the a 10-win team into the 96
      Bulls. Methinks there's other cause/effects buried in the data that
      we're not seeing.







      --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Mike G" <msg_53@h...> wrote:
      > How do you get these numbers? At the ESB site, all I can get is a
      > plug for a book, on baseball.
      >
      >
      > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "ssims22000" <ssims2@i...>
      > wrote:
      > > Hi,
      > >
      > > Elias Sports Bureau apparently keeps plus/minus stats for the
      > > playoffs, at least. ...
      >
      > > ... Over 48 minutes, the Spurs are
      > > approximately 19 points better with Ginobili than without him.
      > This
      > > effect is too large to be an artifact, and it squares with what I
      > > have been watching - the Spurs are obviously smoother offensively
      > > and much more intense defensively when Ginobili is on the floor.
      > He
      > > is an aggressive scorer and defender as well as a fine compliment
      > to
      > > Duncan. Is there a good reason why he is not starting, I wonder?
      >
      >
      > I imagine he will be starting next year. I agree, he was the one
      > player (other than Duncan) who did not 'stiffen up' when the rest
      of
      > the team went into their 4th-quarter torpors.
    • ssims22000
      ... I saw them in a couple of articles on ESPN. I expect they re buried in the archives by now. Only Duncan s and Ginobili s numbers were provided. ... of
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 17 6:53 AM
        --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Mike G" <msg_53@h...> wrote:
        > How do you get these numbers? At the ESB site, all I can get is a
        > plug for a book, on baseball.
        >
        I saw them in a couple of articles on ESPN. I expect they're
        buried in the archives by now. Only Duncan's and Ginobili's numbers
        were provided.

        >
        >
        > I imagine he will be starting next year. I agree, he was the one
        > player (other than Duncan) who did not 'stiffen up' when the rest
        of
        > the team went into their 4th-quarter torpors.

        More important, in my estimation, is that I cannot remember a
        single big Spurs run in which Ginobili was not on the floor.

        --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "John Hollinger"
        <alleyoop2@y...> wrote:
        >Because much of the effect you were seeing wasn't Ginobili ON the
        >floor, it was Stephen Jackson OFF it. Jackson had a very solid
        >regular season but was a gigantic turnover machine in the Finals;
        >Ginobili was always his replacement.
        >
        I don't think this is as significant a factor as you think.
        Jackson played almost 34 minutes per game, while Ginobili logged
        over 27 a game. Even assuming one of them was always on the floor,
        this still means that Ginobili and Jackson played together for more
        than 13 minutes each game (or almost half of Manu's total minutes).
        Jackson had his ups and downs in the playoffs, but he only averaged
        2.8 turnovers per game (hardly a turnover machine). Certainly, he
        seemed to star prominently in those Spurs' 4th quarter collapses,
        but no more prominently than Ginobili starred in the Spurs' great
        4th quarter runs - the ones that won the last three series for them.

        >In general, I haven't been impressed by what +/- stats show,
        >because
        >a lot of the numbers aren't making sense. It isn't humanly possible
        >for a team to be 25 points better with one player in the lineup or
        >not; that's saying that player turns the a 10-win team into the 96
        >Bulls. Methinks there's other cause/effects buried in the data that
        >we're not seeing.

        I'm sure there are other factors at work. The Spurs probably
        would not be 27 points worse without Tim Duncan - but they would be
        a lot worse. When a player as important as Duncan goes out, there
        is a period of adjustment to the radically different offensive and
        defensive flow the game has without him. Since Duncan is only out 6
        minutes per game, there really is not time for the Spurs to adjust
        to his absence. Also, the opposing team usually tries to make a
        push while the opposing team's best player is out. If Duncan missed
        an entire game, both of these factors would smooth out. I still
        think that San Antonio would win no more than 30 games without
        Duncan for a whole season. So maybe the Spurs are actually only 10-
        13 points better with Duncan over a whole game.
        As for Ginobili, I mentioned that I cannot remember him not being
        on the floor for any of the Spurs' big runs. The Spurs in the
        playoffs were a team of runs, and we often saw 20-point turnarounds
        in the same game. If Ginobili was present in a disproportionate
        number of these positive runs, then given his limited minutes, its
        not really surprising that his +/- would be so high. Now, as to
        what effect Ginobili had on causing these runs - that is a matter
        for discussion.
      • Mike G
        ... only averaged ... collapses,... My impression was also that when the Spurs big leads were beginning to teeter, Jackson was inevitably attempting an
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 17 9:39 AM
          --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "ssims22000" <ssims2@i...>
          wrote:
          > [Stephen] Jackson had his ups and downs in the playoffs, but he
          only averaged
          > 2.8 turnovers per game (hardly a turnover machine). Certainly, he
          > seemed to star prominently in those Spurs' 4th quarter
          collapses,...

          My impression was also that when the Spurs' big leads were beginning
          to teeter, Jackson was inevitably attempting an impossible pass and
          turning it over.

          His turnover rate doesn't seem startlingly high; but here are the
          guys ahead of him for the playoffs:

          Per-36-minutes, etc

          3.9 Malone,Karl Uta
          3.9 Pierce,Paul Bos
          3.6 Kidd,Jason NJ
          3.4 Webber,Chris Sac
          3.4 Stoudemire,Amare Pho
          3.3 Marbury,Stephon Pho
          3.3 Iverson,Allen Phi
          3.3 Stockton,John Uta
          3.3 Mcgrady,Tracy Orl
          3.3 Walker,Antoine Bos
          3.3 Hamilton,Richard Det
          3.1 Bryant,Kobe LAL
          3.1 Jackson,Stephen San

          That's 12 players with greater TO rates. Among them, only Stockton
          was less of a scorer; and only Stoudamire and Hamilton did less
          passing.

          So Jackson is well ahead of the pack in TO/(everything else) ratio,
          in this group. In other words, he doesn't do enough to justify 3
          turnovers in 36 minutes.


          > The Spurs probably
          > would not be 27 points worse without Tim Duncan - but they would
          be
          > a lot worse.

          When I saw this number 27, I thought it must be pretty close to
          correct. What player on the Spurs doesn't have his efficiency
          improved by the double and triple-teaming of Duncan? Would Robinson
          have had those open dunks? Would Bowen et al have had the open
          looks?

          The Spurs didn't steamroll their way to the title. Their average
          score of 95-89 is pretty humble, actually.

          I can easily imagine -- without Duncan -- a first-round exit with
          average score around 78-99.

          > ... I still
          > think that San Antonio would win no more than 30 games without
          > Duncan for a whole season. So maybe the Spurs are actually only
          10-
          > 13 points better with Duncan over a whole game.

          The Spurs without Duncan are probably no better than Memphis or
          Cleveland.


          > As for Ginobili, I mentioned that I cannot remember him not
          being
          > on the floor for any of the Spurs' big runs. The Spurs in the
          > playoffs were a team of runs, and we often saw 20-point
          turnarounds
          > in the same game. If Ginobili was present in a disproportionate
          > number of these positive runs, then given his limited minutes, its
          > not really surprising that his +/- would be so high. Now, as to
          > what effect Ginobili had on causing these runs - that is a matter
          > for discussion.

          The Spurs' affliction the last few years has been stagnation on
          offense. Ginobili is anything but stale.
        • Leo Walsh
          ... teams drafting the best players available in the draft. Do you have any books, references or formulas to recommend that would help me detrimine the best
          Message 4 of 8 , Jun 18 5:38 AM
            --- ssims22000 <ssims2@...> wrote:
            > Hi,
            >
            > I'm attempting to play a historical replay based on
            teams drafting the best players available in the
            draft.

            Do you have any books, references or formulas to
            recommend that would help me detrimine the best
            players in each draft?

            Any direction would be greatly appreciated.

            Thank you in advance,

            Leo Walsh

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          • Mike G
            ... Apologies to Simmy for failing to respond (or failing to see) a previous post on this subject. Here s *one* rating based on what I call career equivalent
            Message 5 of 8 , Jun 18 6:14 AM
              --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, Leo Walsh <lojowo@y...> wrote:
              >
              > --- ssims22000 <ssims2@i...> wrote:
              > > Hi,
              > >
              > > I'm attempting to play a historical replay based on
              > teams drafting the best players available in the
              > draft.
              >
              > Do you have any books, references or formulas to
              > recommend that would help me detrimine the best
              > players in each draft?
              >
              > Any direction would be greatly appreciated.
              >
              > Thank you in advance,
              >
              > Leo Walsh

              Apologies to Simmy for failing to respond (or failing to see) a
              previous post on this subject.

              Here's *one* rating based on what I call 'career equivalent totals'.
              This system attempts to 'standardize' career totals by accounting for
              the various milieus (i.e., era, team styles) in which the totals were
              accumulated.

              I'll be happy to explain further or just pass along the spreadsheets.

              This list will be pretty short for some early years. It also hasn't
              been updated for a year or two. It includes only players who amassed
              10,000 or more 'equivalent' points + rebounds + etc.

              (I guess the cutoff changes to 15,000 at some point; I've also found
              one error, in 1989, but I don't have time to track it down. So
              consider this a sample..)

              1953
              15987 Carl Braun
              10855 Earl Lloyd
              26842
              1954
              23044 Clyde Lovellette
              17928 George Yardley
              15051 Ray Felix
              10821 Jack George
              66844
              1955
              40542 Bob Pettit
              24754 Johnny Kerr
              16064 Gene Shue
              15768 Larry Costello
              14492 Frank Ramsey
              111620
              1956
              23984 Jack Twyman
              16735 Tom Gola
              13791 Kenny Sears
              12590 Walter Dukes
              8556 Maurice Stokes
              75656
              1957
              40742 Bill Russell
              24770 Cliff Hagan
              22868 Richie Guerin
              20429 Tom Heinsohn
              16893 Willie Naulls
              125702
              1958
              23907 Sam Jones
              23907
              1959
              39390 Elgin Baylor
              30604 Hal Greer
              18628 Guy Rodgers
              17239 Wayne Embry
              10732 Connie Dierking
              10089 K.C. Jones
              126682
              1960
              60802 Wilt Chamberlain
              28284 Bailey Howell
              20637 Dick Barnett
              19889 Johnny Green
              19302 Rudy LaRusso
              11274 Tom Hawkins
              11196 Dave Gambee
              171384
              1961
              44627 Oscar Robertson
              40353 Jerry West
              28604 Lenny Wilkens
              19291 Bob Boozer
              14848 Satch Sanders
              14380 Don Ohl
              11710 Darrall Imhoff
              10346 Al Attles
              184159
              1962
              35100 Walt Bellamy
              17887 Ray Scott
              15707 Tom Meschery
              11051 Adrian Smith
              79745
              1963
              41194 John Havlicek
              28761 Chet Walker
              26543 Zelmo Beaty
              24801 Dave Debusschere
              23216 Bill Bridges
              18508 Don Nelson
              17721 Leroy Ellis
              14293 Kevin Loughery
              12951 Terry Dischinger
              207988
              1964
              28596 Nate Thurmond
              28052 Jerry Lucas
              16627 Gus Johnson
              13389 Don Kojis
              86664
              1965
              25975 Paul Silas
              21517 Willis Reed
              19579 Happy Hairston
              18687 Jeff Mullins
              17201 Joe Caldwell
              13518 Walt Hazzard
              12568 Larry Jones
              129045
              1966
              36776 Rick Barry
              26389 Gail Goodrich
              25293 Billy Cunnngham
              20338 Dick VanArsdale
              17148 Jerry Sloan
              17119 Tom VanArsdale
              14266 Jim Washington
              13331 Jon McGlocklin
              12439 Keith Erickson
              183099
              1967
              25288 Dave Bing
              23947 Lou Hudson
              19025 Bob Love
              17926 Archie Clark
              17691 Jack Marin
              16630 Dick Snyder
              16626 Cazzie Russell
              16228 Freddie Lewis
              12310 Clyde Lee
              11640 Jim Barnett
              10439 John Block
              10352 Bill Melchionni
              198102
              1968
              28601 Walt Frazier
              23812 Earl Monroe
              20983 Louie Dampier
              19565 Mel Daniels
              17840 Connie Hawkins
              16890 Jimmy Jones
              15769 Roger Brown
              143460
              1969
              45587 Elvin Hayes
              29856 Wes Unseld
              23460 Ron Boone
              98903
              1970
              75001 Kareem
              26007 Bob Dandridge
              25721 Spencer Haywood
              22036 Jo Jo White
              17942 Norm Van Lier
              16752 Mack Calvin
              15236 Willie Wise
              198695
              1971
              41200 Dan Issel
              34452 Bob Lanier
              27811 Dave Cowens
              25375 Billy Paultz
              25303 Nate Archibald
              24947 Calvin Murphy
              24173 Sam Lacey
              20630 Rudy Tomjanovich
              20319 Pete Maravich
              19198 Charlie Scott
              18794 John Johnson
              282202
              1972
              52525 Julius Erving
              49025 Artis Gilmore
              28753 George McGinnis
              23451 Randy Smith
              20850 Fred Brown
              20127 Sidney Wicks
              17878 Mike Newlin
              17393 Tom Owens
              17165 Dave Robisch
              15961 Clifford Ray
              263128
              1973
              35815 George Gervin
              30420 Bob McAdoo
              20325 Paul Westphal
              17383 Jim Chones
              15578 James Silas
              15549 Don Buse
              135070
              1974
              25683 Caldwell Jones
              20281 Larry Kenon
              18049 Swen Nater
              64013
              1975
              52972 Moses Malone
              27495 Maurice Lucas
              25196 Bobby Jones
              23415 Jamaal Wilkes
              21314 Mickey Johnson
              20616 John Drew
              20457 Truck Robinson
              19707 Billy Knight
              19035 Scott Wedman
              15035 Brian Winters
              245242
              1976
              27048 Alvan Adams
              23828 Gus Williams
              22511 World Free
              22167 Dan Roundfield
              18047 David Thompson
              17374 Darryl Dawkins
              16592 Junior Bridgeman
              16230 Mark Olberding
              16106 Ricky Sobers
              179903
              1977
              48340 Robert Parish
              35694 Alex English
              33928 Adrian Dantley
              29983 Dennis Johnsn
              19420 John Lucas
              167365
              1978
              34672 Jack Sikma
              27439 Walter Davis
              27168 Bernard King
              23457 James Edwards
              23149 Marques Johnson
              20912 Norm Nixon
              20639 Cedric Maxwell
              18712 Tree Rollins
              18327 Robert Reid
              17341 Greg Ballard
              17133 Rickey Green
              16930 Otis Birdsong
              16055 Ray Williams
              15932 Brad Davis
              297866
              1979
              28832 Maurice Cheeks
              26942 Reggie Theus
              23972 Mychal Thompson
              19373 Mike Mitchell
              18892 Purvis Short
              16086 Wayne Cooper
              15523 Terry Tyler
              15465 Mike Richardson
              15408 Dave Corzine
              15186 John Long
              195679
              1980
              44626 Larry Bird
              44300 Magic Johnson
              23221 Bill Cartwright
              22040 Sidney Moncrief
              19383 Vinnie Johnson
              17927 Michael Cooper
              17038 David Greenwood
              16531 Calvin Natt
              16507 Cliff Robinson I
              15881 Jim Paxson
              237454
              1981
              34312 Kevin McHale
              29905 Bill Laimbeer
              21143 Kiki Vanderweghe
              19690 Mike Gminski
              19094 James Donaldson
              18533 Rick Mahorn
              18486 JoeBarry Carroll
              15964 Darrell Griffith
              15210 Larry Smith
              192337
              1982
              35344 Buck Williams
              34280 Isiah Thomas
              31213 Larry Nance
              30212 Tom Chambers
              27198 Mark Aguirre
              26353 Eddie Johnson
              25046 Rolando Blackman
              22914 Danny Ainge
              21373 Herb Williams
              19233 Orlando Woolridge
              16984 Dan Schayes
              16226 Kelly Tripucka
              15825 Alton Lister
              322201
              1983
              37745 Dominique Wilkins
              32948 Terry Cummings
              29146 James Worthy
              21317 Ricky Pierce
              20286 Sleepy Floyd
              20240 Lafayette Lever
              17668 Mark Eaton
              16845 Paul Pressey
              16512 LaSalle Thompson
              212707
              1984
              40993 Clyde Drexler
              29413 Derek Harper
              27432 Dale Ellis
              25403 Byron Scott
              21944 Jeff Malone
              20306 Glenn Rivers
              19681 Thurl Bailey
              18312 Rodney McCray
              16625 Sedale Threatt
              15240 Mark West
              235349
              1985
              54666 Michael Jordan
              53688 Hakeem Olajuwon
              48938 Charles Barkley
              46087 John Stockton
              32920 Otis Thorpe
              29928 Sam Perkins
              28852 Kevin Willis
              23573 Jerome Kersey
              19739 Alvin Robertson
              18106 Vern Fleming
              16719 Antoine Carr
              16286 Jay Humphries
              15303 Craig Ehlo
              404805
              1986
              59000 Karl Malone
              45786 Patrick Ewing
              30612 Detlef Schrempf
              29206 Terry Porter
              29158 Charles Oakley
              27882 Chris Mullin
              27236 Joe Dumars
              26467 A.C. Green
              21168 Xavier McDaniel
              19057 Tyrone Corbin
              18971 Wayman Tisdale
              17701 Gerald Wilkins
              17684 Benoit Benjamin
              15715 Michael Adams
              15117 Spud Webb
              400760
              1987
              30911 Jeff Hornacek
              24840 Ron Harper
              24701 Dennis Rodman
              21538 Chuck Person
              21100 HotRod Williams
              21092 Mark Price
              20065 Brad Daugherty
              17034 Dell Curry
              16439 Johnny Newman
              15981 Nate McMillan
              213701
              1988
              38788 Scottie Pippen
              32974 Reggie Miller
              29042 Horace Grant
              26769 Kevin Johnson
              21068 Armon Gilliam
              20035 Derrick McKey
              17709 Muggsy Bogues
              17060 Kenny Smith
              16563 Olden Polynice
              220008
              1989
              27540 Mark Jackson
              26785 Mitch Richmond
              24995 Rod Strickland
              24650 Hersey Hawkins
              23408 Rik Smits
              20965 Dan Majerle
              19732 Danny Manning
              18115 John Starks
              17947 Avery Johnson
              17616 Rony Seikaly
              17312 Grant Long
              16265 Vernon Maxwell
              255330
              1990
              38409 David Robinson
              28812 Shawn Kemp
              24703 Tim Hardaway
              24651 Glen Rice
              23319 Mookie Blaylock
              23271 Vlade Divac
              22992 Cliff RobinsonII
              19339 Nick Anderson
              18388 Anthony Mason
              17524 Sean Elliott
              241408
              1991
              27531 Gary Payton
              19505 Derrick Coleman
              17374 Kendall Gill
              16184 Elden Campbell
              14182 Tyrone Hill
              94776
              1992
              23232 Dikembe Mutombo
              20315 Larry Johnson
              18343 Steve Smith
              16867 Terrell Brandon
              16426 Dale Davis
              16352 Kenny Anderson
              111535
              1993
              29991 Shaquille O'Neal
              22567 Alonzo Mourning
              16654 Christi Laettner
              16070 Latrell Sprewell
              15871 Tom Gugliotta
              14723 C.Weatherspoon
              115876
              1994
              16211 Penny Hardaway
              15781 Chris Webber
              14296 Nick Van Exel
              13937 Allan Houston
              13834 Toni Kukoc
              74059
              1995
              17806 Grant Hill
              13235 Jason Kidd
              13162 Glenn Robinson
              12501 Eddie Jones
              11969 Juwan Howard
              9588 Jalen Rose
              78261
              1996
              13221 Kevin Garnett
              11056 Mike Finley
              10885 Damon Stoudamire
              10490 Antonio McDyess
              10482 Arvydas Sabonis
              9523 Rasheed Wallace
              9486 Jerry Stackhouse
              75143
              1997
              10495 Allen Iverson
              8954 Antoine Walker
              8775 Stephon Marbury
              8450 Ray Allen
              8057 Kobe Bryant
              44731
              1998
              10172 Tim Duncan
              7382 Shareef A-Raheem
              17554


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            • Leo Walsh
              Thanks Mike, Thanks for your help. This rating will probably help also in determining the value of the player after his career has begun. I m sure I ll run
              Message 6 of 8 , Jun 18 6:41 AM
                Thanks Mike,

                Thanks for your help.

                This rating will probably help also in determining the
                value of the player after his career has begun.

                I'm sure I'll run into the situation that I will have
                too many minutes on one team while not enough on
                another.

                I'll also run into the situation that I have two small
                forwards ( for example ) and will have to move someone
                to balance out the minutes played.

                I'll have to balance minutes played somehow.
                --- Mike G <msg_53@...> wrote:
                > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, Leo Walsh
                > <lojowo@y...> wrote:
                > >
                > > --- ssims22000 <ssims2@i...> wrote:
                > > > Hi,
                > > >
                > > > I'm attempting to play a historical replay
                > based on
                > > teams drafting the best players available in the
                > > draft.
                > >
                > > Do you have any books, references or formulas to
                > > recommend that would help me detrimine the best
                > > players in each draft?
                > >
                > > Any direction would be greatly appreciated.
                > >
                > > Thank you in advance,
                > >
                > > Leo Walsh
                >
                > Apologies to Simmy for failing to respond (or
                > failing to see) a
                > previous post on this subject.
                >
                > Here's *one* rating based on what I call 'career
                > equivalent totals'.
                > This system attempts to 'standardize' career totals
                > by accounting for
                > the various milieus (i.e., era, team styles) in
                > which the totals were
                > accumulated.
                >
                > I'll be happy to explain further or just pass along
                > the spreadsheets.
                >
                > This list will be pretty short for some early years.
                > It also hasn't
                > been updated for a year or two. It includes only
                > players who amassed
                > 10,000 or more 'equivalent' points + rebounds + etc.
                >
                > (I guess the cutoff changes to 15,000 at some point;
                > I've also found
                > one error, in 1989, but I don't have time to track
                > it down. So
                > consider this a sample..)
                >
                > 1953
                > 15987 Carl Braun
                > 10855 Earl Lloyd
                > 26842
                > 1954
                > 23044 Clyde Lovellette
                > 17928 George Yardley
                > 15051 Ray Felix
                > 10821 Jack George
                > 66844
                > 1955
                > 40542 Bob Pettit
                > 24754 Johnny Kerr
                > 16064 Gene Shue
                > 15768 Larry Costello
                > 14492 Frank Ramsey
                > 111620
                > 1956
                > 23984 Jack Twyman
                > 16735 Tom Gola
                > 13791 Kenny Sears
                > 12590 Walter Dukes
                > 8556 Maurice Stokes
                > 75656
                > 1957
                > 40742 Bill Russell
                > 24770 Cliff Hagan
                > 22868 Richie Guerin
                > 20429 Tom Heinsohn
                > 16893 Willie Naulls
                > 125702
                > 1958
                > 23907 Sam Jones
                > 23907
                > 1959
                > 39390 Elgin Baylor
                > 30604 Hal Greer
                > 18628 Guy Rodgers
                > 17239 Wayne Embry
                > 10732 Connie Dierking
                > 10089 K.C. Jones
                > 126682
                > 1960
                > 60802 Wilt Chamberlain
                > 28284 Bailey Howell
                > 20637 Dick Barnett
                > 19889 Johnny Green
                > 19302 Rudy LaRusso
                > 11274 Tom Hawkins
                > 11196 Dave Gambee
                > 171384
                > 1961
                > 44627 Oscar Robertson
                > 40353 Jerry West
                > 28604 Lenny Wilkens
                > 19291 Bob Boozer
                > 14848 Satch Sanders
                > 14380 Don Ohl
                > 11710 Darrall Imhoff
                > 10346 Al Attles
                > 184159
                > 1962
                > 35100 Walt Bellamy
                > 17887 Ray Scott
                > 15707 Tom Meschery
                > 11051 Adrian Smith
                > 79745
                > 1963
                > 41194 John Havlicek
                > 28761 Chet Walker
                > 26543 Zelmo Beaty
                > 24801 Dave Debusschere
                > 23216 Bill Bridges
                > 18508 Don Nelson
                > 17721 Leroy Ellis
                > 14293 Kevin Loughery
                > 12951 Terry Dischinger
                > 207988
                > 1964
                > 28596 Nate Thurmond
                > 28052 Jerry Lucas
                > 16627 Gus Johnson
                > 13389 Don Kojis
                > 86664
                > 1965
                > 25975 Paul Silas
                > 21517 Willis Reed
                > 19579 Happy Hairston
                > 18687 Jeff Mullins
                > 17201 Joe Caldwell
                > 13518 Walt Hazzard
                > 12568 Larry Jones
                > 129045
                > 1966
                > 36776 Rick Barry
                > 26389 Gail Goodrich
                > 25293 Billy Cunnngham
                > 20338 Dick VanArsdale
                > 17148 Jerry Sloan
                > 17119 Tom VanArsdale
                > 14266 Jim Washington
                > 13331 Jon McGlocklin
                > 12439 Keith Erickson
                > 183099
                > 1967
                > 25288 Dave Bing
                > 23947 Lou Hudson
                > 19025 Bob Love
                > 17926 Archie Clark
                > 17691 Jack Marin
                > 16630 Dick Snyder
                > 16626 Cazzie Russell
                > 16228 Freddie Lewis
                > 12310 Clyde Lee
                > 11640 Jim Barnett
                > 10439 John Block
                > 10352 Bill Melchionni
                > 198102
                > 1968
                > 28601 Walt Frazier
                > 23812 Earl Monroe
                > 20983 Louie Dampier
                > 19565 Mel Daniels
                > 17840 Connie Hawkins
                > 16890 Jimmy Jones
                > 15769 Roger Brown
                > 143460
                > 1969
                > 45587 Elvin Hayes
                > 29856 Wes Unseld
                > 23460 Ron Boone
                > 98903
                > 1970
                > 75001 Kareem
                > 26007 Bob Dandridge
                > 25721 Spencer Haywood
                > 22036 Jo Jo White
                > 17942 Norm Van Lier
                > 16752 Mack Calvin
                > 15236 Willie Wise
                > 198695
                > 1971
                > 41200 Dan Issel
                > 34452 Bob Lanier
                > 27811 Dave Cowens
                > 25375 Billy Paultz
                > 25303 Nate Archibald
                > 24947 Calvin Murphy
                > 24173 Sam Lacey
                > 20630 Rudy Tomjanovich
                > 20319 Pete Maravich
                > 19198 Charlie Scott
                > 18794 John Johnson
                >
                === message truncated ===


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