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Re: Plus/Minus Numbers

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  • Mike G
    How do you get these numbers? At the ESB site, all I can get is a plug for a book, on baseball. ... This ... He ... to ... I imagine he will be starting next
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 16, 2003
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      How do you get these numbers? At the ESB site, all I can get is a
      plug for a book, on baseball.


      --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "ssims22000" <ssims2@i...>
      wrote:
      > Hi,
      >
      > Elias Sports Bureau apparently keeps plus/minus stats for the
      > playoffs, at least. ...

      > ... Over 48 minutes, the Spurs are
      > approximately 19 points better with Ginobili than without him.
      This
      > effect is too large to be an artifact, and it squares with what I
      > have been watching - the Spurs are obviously smoother offensively
      > and much more intense defensively when Ginobili is on the floor.
      He
      > is an aggressive scorer and defender as well as a fine compliment
      to
      > Duncan. Is there a good reason why he is not starting, I wonder?


      I imagine he will be starting next year. I agree, he was the one
      player (other than Duncan) who did not 'stiffen up' when the rest of
      the team went into their 4th-quarter torpors.
    • John Hollinger
      Because much of the effect you were seeing wasn t Ginobili ON the floor, it was Stephen Jackson OFF it. Jackson had a very solid regular season but was a
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 16, 2003
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        Because much of the effect you were seeing wasn't Ginobili ON the
        floor, it was Stephen Jackson OFF it. Jackson had a very solid
        regular season but was a gigantic turnover machine in the Finals;
        Ginobili was always his replacement.

        In general, I haven't been impressed by what +/- stats show, because
        a lot of the numbers aren't making sense. It isn't humanly possible
        for a team to be 25 points better with one player in the lineup or
        not; that's saying that player turns the a 10-win team into the 96
        Bulls. Methinks there's other cause/effects buried in the data that
        we're not seeing.







        --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Mike G" <msg_53@h...> wrote:
        > How do you get these numbers? At the ESB site, all I can get is a
        > plug for a book, on baseball.
        >
        >
        > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "ssims22000" <ssims2@i...>
        > wrote:
        > > Hi,
        > >
        > > Elias Sports Bureau apparently keeps plus/minus stats for the
        > > playoffs, at least. ...
        >
        > > ... Over 48 minutes, the Spurs are
        > > approximately 19 points better with Ginobili than without him.
        > This
        > > effect is too large to be an artifact, and it squares with what I
        > > have been watching - the Spurs are obviously smoother offensively
        > > and much more intense defensively when Ginobili is on the floor.
        > He
        > > is an aggressive scorer and defender as well as a fine compliment
        > to
        > > Duncan. Is there a good reason why he is not starting, I wonder?
        >
        >
        > I imagine he will be starting next year. I agree, he was the one
        > player (other than Duncan) who did not 'stiffen up' when the rest
        of
        > the team went into their 4th-quarter torpors.
      • ssims22000
        ... I saw them in a couple of articles on ESPN. I expect they re buried in the archives by now. Only Duncan s and Ginobili s numbers were provided. ... of
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 17, 2003
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          --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Mike G" <msg_53@h...> wrote:
          > How do you get these numbers? At the ESB site, all I can get is a
          > plug for a book, on baseball.
          >
          I saw them in a couple of articles on ESPN. I expect they're
          buried in the archives by now. Only Duncan's and Ginobili's numbers
          were provided.

          >
          >
          > I imagine he will be starting next year. I agree, he was the one
          > player (other than Duncan) who did not 'stiffen up' when the rest
          of
          > the team went into their 4th-quarter torpors.

          More important, in my estimation, is that I cannot remember a
          single big Spurs run in which Ginobili was not on the floor.

          --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "John Hollinger"
          <alleyoop2@y...> wrote:
          >Because much of the effect you were seeing wasn't Ginobili ON the
          >floor, it was Stephen Jackson OFF it. Jackson had a very solid
          >regular season but was a gigantic turnover machine in the Finals;
          >Ginobili was always his replacement.
          >
          I don't think this is as significant a factor as you think.
          Jackson played almost 34 minutes per game, while Ginobili logged
          over 27 a game. Even assuming one of them was always on the floor,
          this still means that Ginobili and Jackson played together for more
          than 13 minutes each game (or almost half of Manu's total minutes).
          Jackson had his ups and downs in the playoffs, but he only averaged
          2.8 turnovers per game (hardly a turnover machine). Certainly, he
          seemed to star prominently in those Spurs' 4th quarter collapses,
          but no more prominently than Ginobili starred in the Spurs' great
          4th quarter runs - the ones that won the last three series for them.

          >In general, I haven't been impressed by what +/- stats show,
          >because
          >a lot of the numbers aren't making sense. It isn't humanly possible
          >for a team to be 25 points better with one player in the lineup or
          >not; that's saying that player turns the a 10-win team into the 96
          >Bulls. Methinks there's other cause/effects buried in the data that
          >we're not seeing.

          I'm sure there are other factors at work. The Spurs probably
          would not be 27 points worse without Tim Duncan - but they would be
          a lot worse. When a player as important as Duncan goes out, there
          is a period of adjustment to the radically different offensive and
          defensive flow the game has without him. Since Duncan is only out 6
          minutes per game, there really is not time for the Spurs to adjust
          to his absence. Also, the opposing team usually tries to make a
          push while the opposing team's best player is out. If Duncan missed
          an entire game, both of these factors would smooth out. I still
          think that San Antonio would win no more than 30 games without
          Duncan for a whole season. So maybe the Spurs are actually only 10-
          13 points better with Duncan over a whole game.
          As for Ginobili, I mentioned that I cannot remember him not being
          on the floor for any of the Spurs' big runs. The Spurs in the
          playoffs were a team of runs, and we often saw 20-point turnarounds
          in the same game. If Ginobili was present in a disproportionate
          number of these positive runs, then given his limited minutes, its
          not really surprising that his +/- would be so high. Now, as to
          what effect Ginobili had on causing these runs - that is a matter
          for discussion.
        • Mike G
          ... only averaged ... collapses,... My impression was also that when the Spurs big leads were beginning to teeter, Jackson was inevitably attempting an
          Message 4 of 8 , Jun 17, 2003
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            --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "ssims22000" <ssims2@i...>
            wrote:
            > [Stephen] Jackson had his ups and downs in the playoffs, but he
            only averaged
            > 2.8 turnovers per game (hardly a turnover machine). Certainly, he
            > seemed to star prominently in those Spurs' 4th quarter
            collapses,...

            My impression was also that when the Spurs' big leads were beginning
            to teeter, Jackson was inevitably attempting an impossible pass and
            turning it over.

            His turnover rate doesn't seem startlingly high; but here are the
            guys ahead of him for the playoffs:

            Per-36-minutes, etc

            3.9 Malone,Karl Uta
            3.9 Pierce,Paul Bos
            3.6 Kidd,Jason NJ
            3.4 Webber,Chris Sac
            3.4 Stoudemire,Amare Pho
            3.3 Marbury,Stephon Pho
            3.3 Iverson,Allen Phi
            3.3 Stockton,John Uta
            3.3 Mcgrady,Tracy Orl
            3.3 Walker,Antoine Bos
            3.3 Hamilton,Richard Det
            3.1 Bryant,Kobe LAL
            3.1 Jackson,Stephen San

            That's 12 players with greater TO rates. Among them, only Stockton
            was less of a scorer; and only Stoudamire and Hamilton did less
            passing.

            So Jackson is well ahead of the pack in TO/(everything else) ratio,
            in this group. In other words, he doesn't do enough to justify 3
            turnovers in 36 minutes.


            > The Spurs probably
            > would not be 27 points worse without Tim Duncan - but they would
            be
            > a lot worse.

            When I saw this number 27, I thought it must be pretty close to
            correct. What player on the Spurs doesn't have his efficiency
            improved by the double and triple-teaming of Duncan? Would Robinson
            have had those open dunks? Would Bowen et al have had the open
            looks?

            The Spurs didn't steamroll their way to the title. Their average
            score of 95-89 is pretty humble, actually.

            I can easily imagine -- without Duncan -- a first-round exit with
            average score around 78-99.

            > ... I still
            > think that San Antonio would win no more than 30 games without
            > Duncan for a whole season. So maybe the Spurs are actually only
            10-
            > 13 points better with Duncan over a whole game.

            The Spurs without Duncan are probably no better than Memphis or
            Cleveland.


            > As for Ginobili, I mentioned that I cannot remember him not
            being
            > on the floor for any of the Spurs' big runs. The Spurs in the
            > playoffs were a team of runs, and we often saw 20-point
            turnarounds
            > in the same game. If Ginobili was present in a disproportionate
            > number of these positive runs, then given his limited minutes, its
            > not really surprising that his +/- would be so high. Now, as to
            > what effect Ginobili had on causing these runs - that is a matter
            > for discussion.

            The Spurs' affliction the last few years has been stagnation on
            offense. Ginobili is anything but stale.
          • Leo Walsh
            ... teams drafting the best players available in the draft. Do you have any books, references or formulas to recommend that would help me detrimine the best
            Message 5 of 8 , Jun 18, 2003
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              --- ssims22000 <ssims2@...> wrote:
              > Hi,
              >
              > I'm attempting to play a historical replay based on
              teams drafting the best players available in the
              draft.

              Do you have any books, references or formulas to
              recommend that would help me detrimine the best
              players in each draft?

              Any direction would be greatly appreciated.

              Thank you in advance,

              Leo Walsh

              __________________________________
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            • Mike G
              ... Apologies to Simmy for failing to respond (or failing to see) a previous post on this subject. Here s *one* rating based on what I call career equivalent
              Message 6 of 8 , Jun 18, 2003
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                --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, Leo Walsh <lojowo@y...> wrote:
                >
                > --- ssims22000 <ssims2@i...> wrote:
                > > Hi,
                > >
                > > I'm attempting to play a historical replay based on
                > teams drafting the best players available in the
                > draft.
                >
                > Do you have any books, references or formulas to
                > recommend that would help me detrimine the best
                > players in each draft?
                >
                > Any direction would be greatly appreciated.
                >
                > Thank you in advance,
                >
                > Leo Walsh

                Apologies to Simmy for failing to respond (or failing to see) a
                previous post on this subject.

                Here's *one* rating based on what I call 'career equivalent totals'.
                This system attempts to 'standardize' career totals by accounting for
                the various milieus (i.e., era, team styles) in which the totals were
                accumulated.

                I'll be happy to explain further or just pass along the spreadsheets.

                This list will be pretty short for some early years. It also hasn't
                been updated for a year or two. It includes only players who amassed
                10,000 or more 'equivalent' points + rebounds + etc.

                (I guess the cutoff changes to 15,000 at some point; I've also found
                one error, in 1989, but I don't have time to track it down. So
                consider this a sample..)

                1953
                15987 Carl Braun
                10855 Earl Lloyd
                26842
                1954
                23044 Clyde Lovellette
                17928 George Yardley
                15051 Ray Felix
                10821 Jack George
                66844
                1955
                40542 Bob Pettit
                24754 Johnny Kerr
                16064 Gene Shue
                15768 Larry Costello
                14492 Frank Ramsey
                111620
                1956
                23984 Jack Twyman
                16735 Tom Gola
                13791 Kenny Sears
                12590 Walter Dukes
                8556 Maurice Stokes
                75656
                1957
                40742 Bill Russell
                24770 Cliff Hagan
                22868 Richie Guerin
                20429 Tom Heinsohn
                16893 Willie Naulls
                125702
                1958
                23907 Sam Jones
                23907
                1959
                39390 Elgin Baylor
                30604 Hal Greer
                18628 Guy Rodgers
                17239 Wayne Embry
                10732 Connie Dierking
                10089 K.C. Jones
                126682
                1960
                60802 Wilt Chamberlain
                28284 Bailey Howell
                20637 Dick Barnett
                19889 Johnny Green
                19302 Rudy LaRusso
                11274 Tom Hawkins
                11196 Dave Gambee
                171384
                1961
                44627 Oscar Robertson
                40353 Jerry West
                28604 Lenny Wilkens
                19291 Bob Boozer
                14848 Satch Sanders
                14380 Don Ohl
                11710 Darrall Imhoff
                10346 Al Attles
                184159
                1962
                35100 Walt Bellamy
                17887 Ray Scott
                15707 Tom Meschery
                11051 Adrian Smith
                79745
                1963
                41194 John Havlicek
                28761 Chet Walker
                26543 Zelmo Beaty
                24801 Dave Debusschere
                23216 Bill Bridges
                18508 Don Nelson
                17721 Leroy Ellis
                14293 Kevin Loughery
                12951 Terry Dischinger
                207988
                1964
                28596 Nate Thurmond
                28052 Jerry Lucas
                16627 Gus Johnson
                13389 Don Kojis
                86664
                1965
                25975 Paul Silas
                21517 Willis Reed
                19579 Happy Hairston
                18687 Jeff Mullins
                17201 Joe Caldwell
                13518 Walt Hazzard
                12568 Larry Jones
                129045
                1966
                36776 Rick Barry
                26389 Gail Goodrich
                25293 Billy Cunnngham
                20338 Dick VanArsdale
                17148 Jerry Sloan
                17119 Tom VanArsdale
                14266 Jim Washington
                13331 Jon McGlocklin
                12439 Keith Erickson
                183099
                1967
                25288 Dave Bing
                23947 Lou Hudson
                19025 Bob Love
                17926 Archie Clark
                17691 Jack Marin
                16630 Dick Snyder
                16626 Cazzie Russell
                16228 Freddie Lewis
                12310 Clyde Lee
                11640 Jim Barnett
                10439 John Block
                10352 Bill Melchionni
                198102
                1968
                28601 Walt Frazier
                23812 Earl Monroe
                20983 Louie Dampier
                19565 Mel Daniels
                17840 Connie Hawkins
                16890 Jimmy Jones
                15769 Roger Brown
                143460
                1969
                45587 Elvin Hayes
                29856 Wes Unseld
                23460 Ron Boone
                98903
                1970
                75001 Kareem
                26007 Bob Dandridge
                25721 Spencer Haywood
                22036 Jo Jo White
                17942 Norm Van Lier
                16752 Mack Calvin
                15236 Willie Wise
                198695
                1971
                41200 Dan Issel
                34452 Bob Lanier
                27811 Dave Cowens
                25375 Billy Paultz
                25303 Nate Archibald
                24947 Calvin Murphy
                24173 Sam Lacey
                20630 Rudy Tomjanovich
                20319 Pete Maravich
                19198 Charlie Scott
                18794 John Johnson
                282202
                1972
                52525 Julius Erving
                49025 Artis Gilmore
                28753 George McGinnis
                23451 Randy Smith
                20850 Fred Brown
                20127 Sidney Wicks
                17878 Mike Newlin
                17393 Tom Owens
                17165 Dave Robisch
                15961 Clifford Ray
                263128
                1973
                35815 George Gervin
                30420 Bob McAdoo
                20325 Paul Westphal
                17383 Jim Chones
                15578 James Silas
                15549 Don Buse
                135070
                1974
                25683 Caldwell Jones
                20281 Larry Kenon
                18049 Swen Nater
                64013
                1975
                52972 Moses Malone
                27495 Maurice Lucas
                25196 Bobby Jones
                23415 Jamaal Wilkes
                21314 Mickey Johnson
                20616 John Drew
                20457 Truck Robinson
                19707 Billy Knight
                19035 Scott Wedman
                15035 Brian Winters
                245242
                1976
                27048 Alvan Adams
                23828 Gus Williams
                22511 World Free
                22167 Dan Roundfield
                18047 David Thompson
                17374 Darryl Dawkins
                16592 Junior Bridgeman
                16230 Mark Olberding
                16106 Ricky Sobers
                179903
                1977
                48340 Robert Parish
                35694 Alex English
                33928 Adrian Dantley
                29983 Dennis Johnsn
                19420 John Lucas
                167365
                1978
                34672 Jack Sikma
                27439 Walter Davis
                27168 Bernard King
                23457 James Edwards
                23149 Marques Johnson
                20912 Norm Nixon
                20639 Cedric Maxwell
                18712 Tree Rollins
                18327 Robert Reid
                17341 Greg Ballard
                17133 Rickey Green
                16930 Otis Birdsong
                16055 Ray Williams
                15932 Brad Davis
                297866
                1979
                28832 Maurice Cheeks
                26942 Reggie Theus
                23972 Mychal Thompson
                19373 Mike Mitchell
                18892 Purvis Short
                16086 Wayne Cooper
                15523 Terry Tyler
                15465 Mike Richardson
                15408 Dave Corzine
                15186 John Long
                195679
                1980
                44626 Larry Bird
                44300 Magic Johnson
                23221 Bill Cartwright
                22040 Sidney Moncrief
                19383 Vinnie Johnson
                17927 Michael Cooper
                17038 David Greenwood
                16531 Calvin Natt
                16507 Cliff Robinson I
                15881 Jim Paxson
                237454
                1981
                34312 Kevin McHale
                29905 Bill Laimbeer
                21143 Kiki Vanderweghe
                19690 Mike Gminski
                19094 James Donaldson
                18533 Rick Mahorn
                18486 JoeBarry Carroll
                15964 Darrell Griffith
                15210 Larry Smith
                192337
                1982
                35344 Buck Williams
                34280 Isiah Thomas
                31213 Larry Nance
                30212 Tom Chambers
                27198 Mark Aguirre
                26353 Eddie Johnson
                25046 Rolando Blackman
                22914 Danny Ainge
                21373 Herb Williams
                19233 Orlando Woolridge
                16984 Dan Schayes
                16226 Kelly Tripucka
                15825 Alton Lister
                322201
                1983
                37745 Dominique Wilkins
                32948 Terry Cummings
                29146 James Worthy
                21317 Ricky Pierce
                20286 Sleepy Floyd
                20240 Lafayette Lever
                17668 Mark Eaton
                16845 Paul Pressey
                16512 LaSalle Thompson
                212707
                1984
                40993 Clyde Drexler
                29413 Derek Harper
                27432 Dale Ellis
                25403 Byron Scott
                21944 Jeff Malone
                20306 Glenn Rivers
                19681 Thurl Bailey
                18312 Rodney McCray
                16625 Sedale Threatt
                15240 Mark West
                235349
                1985
                54666 Michael Jordan
                53688 Hakeem Olajuwon
                48938 Charles Barkley
                46087 John Stockton
                32920 Otis Thorpe
                29928 Sam Perkins
                28852 Kevin Willis
                23573 Jerome Kersey
                19739 Alvin Robertson
                18106 Vern Fleming
                16719 Antoine Carr
                16286 Jay Humphries
                15303 Craig Ehlo
                404805
                1986
                59000 Karl Malone
                45786 Patrick Ewing
                30612 Detlef Schrempf
                29206 Terry Porter
                29158 Charles Oakley
                27882 Chris Mullin
                27236 Joe Dumars
                26467 A.C. Green
                21168 Xavier McDaniel
                19057 Tyrone Corbin
                18971 Wayman Tisdale
                17701 Gerald Wilkins
                17684 Benoit Benjamin
                15715 Michael Adams
                15117 Spud Webb
                400760
                1987
                30911 Jeff Hornacek
                24840 Ron Harper
                24701 Dennis Rodman
                21538 Chuck Person
                21100 HotRod Williams
                21092 Mark Price
                20065 Brad Daugherty
                17034 Dell Curry
                16439 Johnny Newman
                15981 Nate McMillan
                213701
                1988
                38788 Scottie Pippen
                32974 Reggie Miller
                29042 Horace Grant
                26769 Kevin Johnson
                21068 Armon Gilliam
                20035 Derrick McKey
                17709 Muggsy Bogues
                17060 Kenny Smith
                16563 Olden Polynice
                220008
                1989
                27540 Mark Jackson
                26785 Mitch Richmond
                24995 Rod Strickland
                24650 Hersey Hawkins
                23408 Rik Smits
                20965 Dan Majerle
                19732 Danny Manning
                18115 John Starks
                17947 Avery Johnson
                17616 Rony Seikaly
                17312 Grant Long
                16265 Vernon Maxwell
                255330
                1990
                38409 David Robinson
                28812 Shawn Kemp
                24703 Tim Hardaway
                24651 Glen Rice
                23319 Mookie Blaylock
                23271 Vlade Divac
                22992 Cliff RobinsonII
                19339 Nick Anderson
                18388 Anthony Mason
                17524 Sean Elliott
                241408
                1991
                27531 Gary Payton
                19505 Derrick Coleman
                17374 Kendall Gill
                16184 Elden Campbell
                14182 Tyrone Hill
                94776
                1992
                23232 Dikembe Mutombo
                20315 Larry Johnson
                18343 Steve Smith
                16867 Terrell Brandon
                16426 Dale Davis
                16352 Kenny Anderson
                111535
                1993
                29991 Shaquille O'Neal
                22567 Alonzo Mourning
                16654 Christi Laettner
                16070 Latrell Sprewell
                15871 Tom Gugliotta
                14723 C.Weatherspoon
                115876
                1994
                16211 Penny Hardaway
                15781 Chris Webber
                14296 Nick Van Exel
                13937 Allan Houston
                13834 Toni Kukoc
                74059
                1995
                17806 Grant Hill
                13235 Jason Kidd
                13162 Glenn Robinson
                12501 Eddie Jones
                11969 Juwan Howard
                9588 Jalen Rose
                78261
                1996
                13221 Kevin Garnett
                11056 Mike Finley
                10885 Damon Stoudamire
                10490 Antonio McDyess
                10482 Arvydas Sabonis
                9523 Rasheed Wallace
                9486 Jerry Stackhouse
                75143
                1997
                10495 Allen Iverson
                8954 Antoine Walker
                8775 Stephon Marbury
                8450 Ray Allen
                8057 Kobe Bryant
                44731
                1998
                10172 Tim Duncan
                7382 Shareef A-Raheem
                17554


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              • Leo Walsh
                Thanks Mike, Thanks for your help. This rating will probably help also in determining the value of the player after his career has begun. I m sure I ll run
                Message 7 of 8 , Jun 18, 2003
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                  Thanks Mike,

                  Thanks for your help.

                  This rating will probably help also in determining the
                  value of the player after his career has begun.

                  I'm sure I'll run into the situation that I will have
                  too many minutes on one team while not enough on
                  another.

                  I'll also run into the situation that I have two small
                  forwards ( for example ) and will have to move someone
                  to balance out the minutes played.

                  I'll have to balance minutes played somehow.
                  --- Mike G <msg_53@...> wrote:
                  > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, Leo Walsh
                  > <lojowo@y...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > --- ssims22000 <ssims2@i...> wrote:
                  > > > Hi,
                  > > >
                  > > > I'm attempting to play a historical replay
                  > based on
                  > > teams drafting the best players available in the
                  > > draft.
                  > >
                  > > Do you have any books, references or formulas to
                  > > recommend that would help me detrimine the best
                  > > players in each draft?
                  > >
                  > > Any direction would be greatly appreciated.
                  > >
                  > > Thank you in advance,
                  > >
                  > > Leo Walsh
                  >
                  > Apologies to Simmy for failing to respond (or
                  > failing to see) a
                  > previous post on this subject.
                  >
                  > Here's *one* rating based on what I call 'career
                  > equivalent totals'.
                  > This system attempts to 'standardize' career totals
                  > by accounting for
                  > the various milieus (i.e., era, team styles) in
                  > which the totals were
                  > accumulated.
                  >
                  > I'll be happy to explain further or just pass along
                  > the spreadsheets.
                  >
                  > This list will be pretty short for some early years.
                  > It also hasn't
                  > been updated for a year or two. It includes only
                  > players who amassed
                  > 10,000 or more 'equivalent' points + rebounds + etc.
                  >
                  > (I guess the cutoff changes to 15,000 at some point;
                  > I've also found
                  > one error, in 1989, but I don't have time to track
                  > it down. So
                  > consider this a sample..)
                  >
                  > 1953
                  > 15987 Carl Braun
                  > 10855 Earl Lloyd
                  > 26842
                  > 1954
                  > 23044 Clyde Lovellette
                  > 17928 George Yardley
                  > 15051 Ray Felix
                  > 10821 Jack George
                  > 66844
                  > 1955
                  > 40542 Bob Pettit
                  > 24754 Johnny Kerr
                  > 16064 Gene Shue
                  > 15768 Larry Costello
                  > 14492 Frank Ramsey
                  > 111620
                  > 1956
                  > 23984 Jack Twyman
                  > 16735 Tom Gola
                  > 13791 Kenny Sears
                  > 12590 Walter Dukes
                  > 8556 Maurice Stokes
                  > 75656
                  > 1957
                  > 40742 Bill Russell
                  > 24770 Cliff Hagan
                  > 22868 Richie Guerin
                  > 20429 Tom Heinsohn
                  > 16893 Willie Naulls
                  > 125702
                  > 1958
                  > 23907 Sam Jones
                  > 23907
                  > 1959
                  > 39390 Elgin Baylor
                  > 30604 Hal Greer
                  > 18628 Guy Rodgers
                  > 17239 Wayne Embry
                  > 10732 Connie Dierking
                  > 10089 K.C. Jones
                  > 126682
                  > 1960
                  > 60802 Wilt Chamberlain
                  > 28284 Bailey Howell
                  > 20637 Dick Barnett
                  > 19889 Johnny Green
                  > 19302 Rudy LaRusso
                  > 11274 Tom Hawkins
                  > 11196 Dave Gambee
                  > 171384
                  > 1961
                  > 44627 Oscar Robertson
                  > 40353 Jerry West
                  > 28604 Lenny Wilkens
                  > 19291 Bob Boozer
                  > 14848 Satch Sanders
                  > 14380 Don Ohl
                  > 11710 Darrall Imhoff
                  > 10346 Al Attles
                  > 184159
                  > 1962
                  > 35100 Walt Bellamy
                  > 17887 Ray Scott
                  > 15707 Tom Meschery
                  > 11051 Adrian Smith
                  > 79745
                  > 1963
                  > 41194 John Havlicek
                  > 28761 Chet Walker
                  > 26543 Zelmo Beaty
                  > 24801 Dave Debusschere
                  > 23216 Bill Bridges
                  > 18508 Don Nelson
                  > 17721 Leroy Ellis
                  > 14293 Kevin Loughery
                  > 12951 Terry Dischinger
                  > 207988
                  > 1964
                  > 28596 Nate Thurmond
                  > 28052 Jerry Lucas
                  > 16627 Gus Johnson
                  > 13389 Don Kojis
                  > 86664
                  > 1965
                  > 25975 Paul Silas
                  > 21517 Willis Reed
                  > 19579 Happy Hairston
                  > 18687 Jeff Mullins
                  > 17201 Joe Caldwell
                  > 13518 Walt Hazzard
                  > 12568 Larry Jones
                  > 129045
                  > 1966
                  > 36776 Rick Barry
                  > 26389 Gail Goodrich
                  > 25293 Billy Cunnngham
                  > 20338 Dick VanArsdale
                  > 17148 Jerry Sloan
                  > 17119 Tom VanArsdale
                  > 14266 Jim Washington
                  > 13331 Jon McGlocklin
                  > 12439 Keith Erickson
                  > 183099
                  > 1967
                  > 25288 Dave Bing
                  > 23947 Lou Hudson
                  > 19025 Bob Love
                  > 17926 Archie Clark
                  > 17691 Jack Marin
                  > 16630 Dick Snyder
                  > 16626 Cazzie Russell
                  > 16228 Freddie Lewis
                  > 12310 Clyde Lee
                  > 11640 Jim Barnett
                  > 10439 John Block
                  > 10352 Bill Melchionni
                  > 198102
                  > 1968
                  > 28601 Walt Frazier
                  > 23812 Earl Monroe
                  > 20983 Louie Dampier
                  > 19565 Mel Daniels
                  > 17840 Connie Hawkins
                  > 16890 Jimmy Jones
                  > 15769 Roger Brown
                  > 143460
                  > 1969
                  > 45587 Elvin Hayes
                  > 29856 Wes Unseld
                  > 23460 Ron Boone
                  > 98903
                  > 1970
                  > 75001 Kareem
                  > 26007 Bob Dandridge
                  > 25721 Spencer Haywood
                  > 22036 Jo Jo White
                  > 17942 Norm Van Lier
                  > 16752 Mack Calvin
                  > 15236 Willie Wise
                  > 198695
                  > 1971
                  > 41200 Dan Issel
                  > 34452 Bob Lanier
                  > 27811 Dave Cowens
                  > 25375 Billy Paultz
                  > 25303 Nate Archibald
                  > 24947 Calvin Murphy
                  > 24173 Sam Lacey
                  > 20630 Rudy Tomjanovich
                  > 20319 Pete Maravich
                  > 19198 Charlie Scott
                  > 18794 John Johnson
                  >
                  === message truncated ===


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