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Stats, again?

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  • lilnemo21@hotmail.com
    In regards to my prior post, wouldn t it make sense to make a file containing comprehensive stats for each league available on-site? Let s face it, not
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 24, 2001
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      In regards to my prior post, wouldn't it make sense to make a file
      containing comprehensive stats for each league available on-site?
      Let's face it, not everyone has 20-75 dollars to spend on an NBA
      Register, Guide, or history book. And the statistics, for the most
      part, are not widely available on the net. The stats themselves cannot
      be claimed, they're free, public domain. Why not make them available?
      Don't get me wrong, I enjoy Bob Chaikin, and Dean's databases, but a
      single comprehensive file, with just the stats would allow for all to
      use as a single resource for creating there own theory without going
      through a lot of leg work. Sort of an "open-data" project if you will.
      Single files maintained at the group site, as well as the APBR main
      site. Divided up by respective league, ABA, BAA/NBA, CBA, etc., etc.
      proofread by members, and posted for reference.
      Any comments, ideas?

      Godspeed gentleman,
      Richard A.
    • Dean Oliver
      ... cannot ... available? ... to ... will. ... At this point, I d say we re working on it. The common resources out there for everyone are 1. Bob Chaikin s
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 24, 2001
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        --- In APBR_analysis@y..., lilnemo21@h... wrote:
        > In regards to my prior post, wouldn't it make sense to make a file
        > containing comprehensive stats for each league available on-site?
        > Let's face it, not everyone has 20-75 dollars to spend on an NBA
        > Register, Guide, or history book. And the statistics, for the most
        > part, are not widely available on the net. The stats themselves
        cannot
        > be claimed, they're free, public domain. Why not make them
        available?
        > Don't get me wrong, I enjoy Bob Chaikin, and Dean's databases, but a
        > single comprehensive file, with just the stats would allow for all
        to
        > use as a single resource for creating there own theory without going
        > through a lot of leg work. Sort of an "open-data" project if you
        will.
        > Single files maintained at the group site, as well as the APBR main
        > site. Divided up by respective league, ABA, BAA/NBA, CBA, etc., etc.
        > proofread by members, and posted for reference.
        > Any comments, ideas?

        At this point, I'd say we're working on it. The common resources out
        there for everyone are

        1. Bob Chaikin's database at

        members.aol.com/bradleyrd/basketballdb.exe

        The problem with it is that you can't really work with it. Bob has
        spent a lot of time compiling the info and sells it. Kinda like Sony
        Betamax tapes.

        2. Doug Steele's numbers since 1989 at

        http://shell.rmi.net/~doug/

        Not official, but pretty accurate relative to what is published.
        Free.

        3. Dean L's database. He has sent this out to some folks. It is
        currently undergoing some QC. Once that QC is done, we can take that
        as the basis for developing a flat file. I'm guessing an Excel file
        is what works for many people. I imagine tabs for individual stats
        (regular/post), team stats (regular/post), league stats. I actually
        don't recall how much playoff info DeanL had, so I may be promising
        too much.

        Data are rather valuable, as free/public domain as we'd like info to
        be. The NBA doesn't like freely giving out stats in a usable form. (I
        think they've made the case that the stats are copyrighted actually,
        which has a legal implication about _how_ you get them. You can hand
        enter them from the newspaper, but can't write a program to download
        them from NBA websites -- I think.) Nor does Bob. It takes us all
        time, but it is a goal of APBR to get public domain and easy-to-use
        data. Unfortunately, none of us are fulltime at this either....

        Dean Oliver
        Journal of Basketball Studies
      • lilnemo21@hotmail.com
        ... (I ... hand ... Amen. Perhaps even with an upload of the data of what Dean has now we can QC & post the corrections. Time consuming, but not if we share in
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 24, 2001
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          --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "Dean Oliver" <deano@t...> wrote:
          > Data are rather valuable, as free/public domain as we'd like info to
          > be. The NBA doesn't like freely giving out stats in a usable form.
          (I
          > think they've made the case that the stats are copyrighted actually,
          > which has a legal implication about _how_ you get them. You can
          hand
          > enter them from the newspaper, but can't write a program to download
          > them from NBA websites -- I think.) Nor does Bob. It takes us all
          > time, but it is a goal of APBR to get public domain and easy-to-use
          > data. Unfortunately, none of us are fulltime at this either....

          Amen.
          Perhaps even with an upload of the data of what Dean has now we can QC
          & post the corrections. Time consuming, but not if we share in the
          task.

          Any suggestions on that front?
          Richard
        • Dean LaVergne
          ... From: lilnemo21@hotmail.com [mailto:lilnemo21@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 7:05 PM To: APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com Subject: [APBR_analysis]
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 24, 2001
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            -----Original Message-----
            From: lilnemo21@... [mailto:lilnemo21@...]
            Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 7:05 PM
            To: APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [APBR_analysis] Re: Stats, again?



            Perhaps even with an upload of the data of what Dean has now we can QC
            & post the corrections. Time consuming, but not if we share in the
            task.

            Any suggestions on that front?
            Richard


            [Dean LaVergne] My main area of concern as far as the data is concerned is what is missing.  For example, I know that turnovers are missing for most players.  I have this information and am updating as I have time.
             
            Thanks to Dean Oliver who pointed out some missing players, I have been able to load about another 200 players whose stats I had overlooked.
             
            Also, thanks to the recent Coffe Cup Players thread, I noticed that I was missing most data for the year 1999-2000, and the data that was there was wrong,
             
            Basically, what I think is need is more eyes looking at the data.  The biggest help would be as many people as possible looking at the data and verifying or making note of incorrect or missing data.
             
            I would suggest as many volunteers as possible to look would allow us to divide the all-time player list (alphabetically perhaps) and undertake to verify what we currently have is correct and what is missing.
             
            Unless we have a central place to house the data, I don't see how we can update individual copies and keep them in synch.  Does anyone have a suggestion as to where it could be kept?
             
            As always, suggestions are appreciated.
             
            Dean L.
          • lilnemo21@hotmail.com
            ... can ... It could be kept here on the apbr analysis page, in files, or perhaps on the APBR main site. Richard
            Message 5 of 8 , Jul 24, 2001
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              --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "Dean LaVergne" <deanlav@y...> wrote:
              > Unless we have a central place to house the data, I don't see how we
              can
              > update individual copies and keep them in synch. Does anyone have a
              > suggestion as to where it could be kept?
              >
              > As always, suggestions are appreciated.
              >
              > Dean L.
              It could be kept here on the apbr analysis page, in files, or perhaps
              on the APBR main site.

              Richard
            • Mike Goodman
              I have all the stats I can imagine, going back to 1952: raw totals, per-game averages, and my standardized stuff. Anyone and everyone is welcome to any or
              Message 6 of 8 , Jul 26, 2001
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                I have all the stats I can imagine, going back to 1952: raw
                totals, per-game averages, and my standardized stuff. Anyone and
                everyone is welcome to any or all of it, if they can get it to go
                from my hard drive to theirs. I can't seem to get it to move.
                Online, Doug Steele has complete stats going back to 1989, I
                believe. I don't think I have ever found a glaring error in his
                data. You can download a whole year of individual stats from his
                site, into Excel, where you just align the columns to convert from a
                text file to usable data.
                Unfortunately, Doug combines the stats of players traded
                midseason, so if you want to break those down, you have to go from
                team to team and re-enter them.
                I guess I don't actually have those players who only had a cup of
                coffee. I have everyone (I think) who totalled 100 NBA minutes or
                200 ABA minutes. Dates back to my 240 Meg HD and 66K processsor.
                I often find it is easier to start from scratch than to insert one
                or two columns and hand-enter something like turnovers. However, I
                did just that when I found Bob Chaikin's data to have steals and
                blocks from '74-'77, and some ABA stats. Thanks, Bob!
                Count me in as someone who will check for errors or whatever.
                Sounds like a worthwhile project. I don't see how copyrights can be
                infringed when we have hand-entered data from so many sources, and
                are now just pooling our resources.

                --- In APBR_analysis@y..., lilnemo21@h... wrote:

                > --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "Dean LaVergne" <deanlav@y...> wrote:
                > > Unless we have a central place to house the data, I don't see how
                we
                > can
                > > update individual copies and keep them in synch. Does anyone
                have a
                > > suggestion as to where it could be kept?
                > >
                > > As always, suggestions are appreciated.
                > >
                > > Dean L.
                > It could be kept here on the apbr analysis page, in files, or
                perhaps
                > on the APBR main site.
                >
                > Richard
              • Dean Oliver
                ... a ... of ... one ... be ... No copyright problems when hand-entering. Mike -- Why don t you post your team stats first. That s a little smaller and I can
                Message 7 of 8 , Jul 27, 2001
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                  --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "Mike Goodman" <msg_53@h...> wrote:
                  > I have all the stats I can imagine, going back to 1952: raw
                  > totals, per-game averages, and my standardized stuff. Anyone and
                  > everyone is welcome to any or all of it, if they can get it to go
                  > from my hard drive to theirs. I can't seem to get it to move.
                  > Online, Doug Steele has complete stats going back to 1989, I
                  > believe. I don't think I have ever found a glaring error in his
                  > data. You can download a whole year of individual stats from his
                  > site, into Excel, where you just align the columns to convert from
                  a
                  > text file to usable data.
                  > Unfortunately, Doug combines the stats of players traded
                  > midseason, so if you want to break those down, you have to go from
                  > team to team and re-enter them.
                  > I guess I don't actually have those players who only had a cup
                  of
                  > coffee. I have everyone (I think) who totalled 100 NBA minutes or
                  > 200 ABA minutes. Dates back to my 240 Meg HD and 66K processsor.
                  > I often find it is easier to start from scratch than to insert
                  one
                  > or two columns and hand-enter something like turnovers. However, I
                  > did just that when I found Bob Chaikin's data to have steals and
                  > blocks from '74-'77, and some ABA stats. Thanks, Bob!
                  > Count me in as someone who will check for errors or whatever.
                  > Sounds like a worthwhile project. I don't see how copyrights can
                  be
                  > infringed when we have hand-entered data from so many sources, and
                  > are now just pooling our resources.

                  No copyright problems when hand-entering.

                  Mike -- Why don't you post your team stats first. That's a little
                  smaller and I can do some checking on those quicker. Those should
                  form the basis for a lot of discussions anyway.

                  Dean Oliver
                  Journal of Basketball Studies
                • lk_maxwell@hotmail.com
                  I have just been reading through this thread and this is exactly the type of project I would be willing to have over at my website,
                  Message 8 of 8 , Aug 9, 2001
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                    I have just been reading through this thread and this is exactly the
                    type of project I would be willing to have over at my website,
                    http://www.thescoreproject.org

                    I don't know how familiar everyone is with databases and the Internet
                    so I'll explain a little bit about how it works. The site uses a
                    database as a back-end. What would happen is when someone wants the
                    scores or stats for a particular team or player the database will
                    look up that particular information and send it to the web page for
                    the visitor to view. When the database is updated, the next time
                    someone views the page the changes will be already reflected. There
                    is no need to print out dozens of html or text files and post them to
                    a site. It is all done "behind-the-scenes" so to speak. Also, pages
                    can be designed to view data in a variety of ways very easily and
                    even make calculations to create numbers not held in the database,
                    such as if the raw totals are stored then the points per game is
                    simple to calculate and display on the web page. I can also allow
                    members to update the database over the Internet or if they have
                    large amounts of data, then they could email it to me for direct
                    importation. Either way is very easy.

                    My only concern about volunteering for this is of over-extending
                    myself. I cannot promise when I can have the database or web pages
                    up, and I still have about billion other things to do between work,
                    family, other projects, etc. However, if there are those who are
                    willing to update the site with data, then I will do what I can as
                    fast as I can.

                    Let me know if you have any thoughts.

                    Loren Maxwell
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