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Re: [APBR_analysis] Hall of Fame

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  • Ed Weiland
    ... Agreed ... Overrated, but also an key part of a great all-time team. In the past this has been given a lot of weight. I m guessing Worthy gets in. I say he
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 12 4:05 AM
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      --- harlanzo <harlanzo@...> wrote:
      > Anyone have opinions on the nominees this year?
      > I'll give mine
      > quickly:
      >
      > Robert Parish: In, was very good (not great) for so
      > long.

      Agreed
      >
      > James Worthy: I think he was actually a tad
      > overrated. good but not
      > so different from tons of other good scoring small
      > forwards.

      Overrated, but also an key part of a great all-time
      team. In the past this has been given a lot of weight.
      I'm guessing Worthy gets in. I say he deserves the
      honor too.
      >
      > Dennis Johnson: all star on seattle and phoenix
      > decent on Boston.
      > closer but not quite.

      Long career, played for more than one champion. My
      first impulse is that he doesn't belong, but if Worthy
      gets in you have to look at DJ too, IMO.
      >
      > Adrian Dantley: had a nice scoring run on utah. but
      > he was a jerk
      > and his teams were just as good (if not better)
      > after he was traded/

      Agreed. He could score, but didn't seem to have much
      impact on his team's success.

      >
      > Bobby Jones: wow. this one is not even close. role
      > player not much
      > more.

      Jones was all-defensive first team 10 times, two of
      those in the ABA, and he played in 4 all-star games.
      He was more than a role player, but probably not a
      HOFer.


      >
      > Gus Johnson: was a great power forward but his
      > career was a bit too
      > short to get in in my opinion.
      >
      > Chet Walker: I never really considered him great or
      > a star. a
      > player like this needs a longer career to get in.
      >
      > Maurice Cheeks: he really was a good player but
      > always subsidiary to
      > true stars. there are many better pguards since.
      >
      > Walter DAvis: another really good shooting guard who
      > was not much of
      > a defender or passer. I like him but I think there
      > are better
      > candidates.

      Agreed on Johnson, Walker and Davis. Cheeks deserves a
      longer look, IMO. Top ten all-time in steals and
      assists. Career FG pct. of .523 is incredible for a
      PG. I think there's a solid case here for Mo.

      Ed
      >
      >
    • harlanzo
      ... Postseason, ... I would not want to overweigh his post season career too much. With Magic gone, Worthy was not great in the playoffs. I would not want to
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 12 7:34 AM
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        --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Mike G" <msg_53@h...> wrote:

        > >
        > > James Worthy: I think he was actually a tad overrated. good but
        > not
        > > so different from tons of other good scoring small forwards.
        >
        > Ignoring the postseason, this would be a true statement.
        Postseason,
        > he was monster. Marginal Top 50 in my book.

        I would not want to overweigh his post season career too much. With
        Magic gone, Worthy was not great in the playoffs. I would not want
        to overcredit a subsidiary player in the playoffs if a similar
        player (Mike Mitchell, Mike Woodson) might have been able to rack up
        good playoff games with magic too. This is not to say that these
        guys are as good as Worthy but there are a bunch of SFs(Bernard
        King, Adrian Dantley, Chris Mullin etc) who were good and had some
        good playoff games too.

        >> >
        > > Adrian Dantley: had a nice scoring run on utah. but he was a
        jerk
        > > and his teams were just as good (if not better) after he was
        traded/
        >
        > Hmmm. He was an offensive superman. I don't see much in
        comparing
        > before and after a trade. If the trade is even, there shouldn't
        be a
        > difference.
        >
        > In 1983, AD was out all but 22 games, and Utah's W-L % was .349
        > In '84, he played 79 G, and Utah was .549
        > In '85, he played 55 G, and Utah was .496
        >
        > Though that's only part of the story; but on this one, I think
        > Harlan's synopsis is stooping just a bit.
        >


        Here are Dantley's yearly records on Utah and his ppg:

        1979-80 24-58 and 28.0
        1980-81 28-54 and 30.7
        1981-82 25-57 and 30.3
        1982-83 30-52 and DAntley injured for all but 22 games
        1983-84 45-37 and 30.6
        1984-85 41-41 and 26.7
        1985-86 42-40 and 29.8
        1986-87 44-38 and Dantley traded for Tripucka

        On Detroit Dantley was good but the team won two championships after
        he was traded. My conclusion, Dantley was a good scorer but hardly
        irreplaceable. You combined that with the fact that a lot of people
        hated him, there is strong argument is not HOF material.



        > >
        > > Bobby Jones: wow. this one is not even close. role player not
        > much
        > > more.
        >
        > I keep forgetting, there are superstars and role players, and
        nothing
        > in between.
        >

        Role player is an oversimplification but he went from good regular
        to role player. He still is not close to HOF.
        ....
        >
        >> While I'm at it, Harlan's website is itself terrific stuff. He's
        > really steeped in the best basketball traditions, and
        knowledgeable
        > where it matters. Check it out if you haven't:
        >
        > http://www.hoopsanalyst.com/

        Thanks for the pop Mike. I'll use the opportunity to again solicit
        articles for the site. We have gotten a number of people posted on
        the site from apbr_analysis. anything hoops related you want to
        write about is welcomed and encouraged. If you don't want to write
        too much, we also like people unveiling methods/formulae and lists
        ranking players as a result. DeanO recently did it, it's fun easy
        and not time consuming. You can reach me at either
        info@... or harlanzo@.... Thanks
      • aaronkoo
        ... not ... I ll play dissenter here. Parish and Worthy are very comparable players in terms of overall contribution. They were very valuable when playing
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 12 7:58 AM
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          --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "harlanzo" <harlanzo@y...>
          wrote:
          > Anyone have opinions on the nominees this year? I'll give mine
          > quickly:
          >
          > Robert Parish: In, was very good (not great) for so long.
          >
          > James Worthy: I think he was actually a tad overrated. good but
          not
          > so different from tons of other good scoring small forwards.
          >

          I'll play dissenter here. Parish and Worthy are very comparable
          players in terms of overall contribution. They were very valuable
          when playing with great players. They didn't have to do a lot
          offensively or defensively. What they did, they did very well. The
          fact that Parish did it longer doesn't mean much to me but means
          something. Neither were very successful when they had to go without
          the big stars but their primes correlated with when the stars were
          there and they were not in their primes when on their own. From an
          objective perspective, I keep these guys out of the Hall. From a
          relative perspective, I'm sure you can find guys in the Hall that
          don't deserve it as much as these guys. (Haven't looked at their
          playoff numbers.)

          152 and 110 are the respective HOF monitor points from the reference.

          > Dennis Johnson: all star on seattle and phoenix decent on Boston.
          > closer but not quite.
          >

          No. 134.

          > Adrian Dantley: had a nice scoring run on utah. but he was a jerk
          > and his teams were just as good (if not better) after he was traded/
          >

          College career impressive and important. Pro career -- was great
          offensive player but horrid defensive player to the point it almost
          neutralized his offense. Guys didn't really like playing with him --
          and I can't measure that. He's a legit possibility for his pro
          career, but I'd definitely hesitate. 130.

          > Bobby Jones: wow. this one is not even close. role player not
          much
          > more.

          Role player offensively but legitimately great defender. If some of
          those old Celtics could get in, he could. But I maintain the high
          standards of MikeT. 93.

          >
          > Gus Johnson: was a great power forward but his career was a bit too
          > short to get in in my opinion.
          >
          > Chet Walker: I never really considered him great or a star. a
          > player like this needs a longer career to get in.
          >
          > Maurice Cheeks: he really was a good player but always subsidiary
          to
          > true stars. there are many better pguards since.
          >
          > Walter DAvis: another really good shooting guard who was not much
          of
          > a defender or passer. I like him but I think there are better
          > candidates.

          100. 113. 118. 112.

          Worthy's HOF Monitor points actually among the lowest of the group.
        • Gary Collard
          ... In, easily, due to career value. ... In, not a slam dunk but his playoff performances and being a key to a dynasty team puts him over the top. ... Very
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 12 9:06 AM
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            harlanzo wrote:
            >
            > Anyone have opinions on the nominees this year? I'll give mine
            > quickly:
            >
            > Robert Parish: In, was very good (not great) for so long.

            In, easily, due to career value.

            > James Worthy: I think he was actually a tad overrated. good but not
            > so different from tons of other good scoring small forwards.

            In, not a slam dunk but his playoff performances and being a key to a
            dynasty team puts him over the top.

            > Dennis Johnson: all star on seattle and phoenix decent on Boston.
            > closer but not quite.

            Very close, falls a bit short to me but would not be a bad selection.

            > Adrian Dantley: had a nice scoring run on utah. but he was a jerk
            > and his teams were just as good (if not better) after he was traded

            Such a liability on defense and poor rebounder that I can't seriously
            consider him.

            > Bobby Jones: wow. this one is not even close. role player not much
            > more.

            The Bill Mazeroski candidate. Great defensive player, but others have been
            at least as good so no way.

            > Gus Johnson: was a great power forward but his career was a bit too
            > short to get in in my opinion.

            Same for me, that short woudl require a dominant player.

            > Chet Walker: I never really considered him great or a star. a
            > player like this needs a longer career to get in.

            Like DJ, I do not support him but would not be horrified if he got in.

            > Maurice Cheeks: he really was a good player but always subsidiary to
            > true stars. there are many better pguards since.

            Yes, excellent but not a HOFer.

            > Walter DAvis: another really good shooting guard who was not much of
            > a defender or passer. I like him but I think there are better
            > candidates.

            Not a serious candidate.

            For the other North American non-college candidates, Chick Hearn,
            Meadowlark Lemon and Tex Winter get my vote.

            --
            Gary Collard
            SABR-L Moderator
            collardg@...

            "If you embrace containment, you must accept proliferation, and
            proliferation - not just unchecked but accelerated - will make the
            violent century just passed seem an era of remarkable tranquility in
            comparison." -- Senator John McCain
          • John Hollinger
            I think you re all forgetting the HOF is combined college and pro. I agree with the sentiment that Worthy was mightily overrated as a pro, but collegiately he
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 15 2:47 PM
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              I think you're all forgetting the HOF is combined college and pro. I
              agree with the sentiment that Worthy was mightily overrated as a pro,
              but collegiately he was the national player of the year on a team
              that won the NCAA title, which means he's walking right in. Worthy
              was also MVP of the 88 finals, which has to count for something.

              After Worthy, I'd take DJ over Parish for one reason: He was the best
              player on a team that won the championship. He also made all-NBA
              once. Chief could never come close to making that claim. DJ can go in
              the Hall's new "All-Ugly" wing.

              He's my third choice from the list, but I actually think Parish
              belong as well. IMHO the Hall has too few professional players and
              far too many college coaches.

              Dantley is No. 4 on the list. 30 ppg four straight years is hard to
              ignore, but he never made all-NBA first team and only made second-
              team twice. I say leave him out.

              The other guys are a bunch of Vada Pinsons. Nice stats, good players,
              but stay out of my Hall please.





              --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, Gary Collard <collardg@e...>
              wrote:
              > harlanzo wrote:
              > >
              > > Anyone have opinions on the nominees this year? I'll give mine
              > > quickly:
              > >
              > > Robert Parish: In, was very good (not great) for so long.
              >
              > In, easily, due to career value.
              >
              > > James Worthy: I think he was actually a tad overrated. good but
              not
              > > so different from tons of other good scoring small forwards.
              >
              > In, not a slam dunk but his playoff performances and being a key to
              a
              > dynasty team puts him over the top.
              >
              > > Dennis Johnson: all star on seattle and phoenix decent on Boston.
              > > closer but not quite.
              >
              > Very close, falls a bit short to me but would not be a bad
              selection.
              >
              > > Adrian Dantley: had a nice scoring run on utah. but he was a jerk
              > > and his teams were just as good (if not better) after he was
              traded
              >
              > Such a liability on defense and poor rebounder that I can't
              seriously
              > consider him.
              >
              > > Bobby Jones: wow. this one is not even close. role player not
              much
              > > more.
              >
              > The Bill Mazeroski candidate. Great defensive player, but others
              have been
              > at least as good so no way.
              >
              > > Gus Johnson: was a great power forward but his career was a bit
              too
              > > short to get in in my opinion.
              >
              > Same for me, that short woudl require a dominant player.
              >
              > > Chet Walker: I never really considered him great or a star. a
              > > player like this needs a longer career to get in.
              >
              > Like DJ, I do not support him but would not be horrified if he got
              in.
              >
              > > Maurice Cheeks: he really was a good player but always subsidiary
              to
              > > true stars. there are many better pguards since.
              >
              > Yes, excellent but not a HOFer.
              >
              > > Walter DAvis: another really good shooting guard who was not much
              of
              > > a defender or passer. I like him but I think there are better
              > > candidates.
              >
              > Not a serious candidate.
              >
              > For the other North American non-college candidates, Chick Hearn,
              > Meadowlark Lemon and Tex Winter get my vote.
              >
              > --
              > Gary Collard
              > SABR-L Moderator
              > collardg@e...
              >
              > "If you embrace containment, you must accept proliferation, and
              > proliferation - not just unchecked but accelerated - will make the
              > violent century just passed seem an era of remarkable tranquility in
              > comparison." -- Senator John McCain
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