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RE: [APBR_analysis] Hall of Fame

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  • Michael Tamada
    I pretty much agree with all of Harlanzo s calls. However I like to have fairly strict standards. One thing which some will point out: Dantley s college
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 11, 2003
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      I pretty much agree with all of Harlanzo's calls. However I
      like to have fairly strict standards.

      One thing which some will point out: Dantley's college career
      will give him bonus points which could push him in. That may
      very well be true; I don't know enough about college basketball
      to judge. But based on his pro career, thumbs down from me.

      It kills me to give thumbs down to players who played the game
      right and were so good: DJ, Jones (who in fact was a bit more
      than a role player, though a superstar he was not), Cheeks,
      Davis. Johnson and Walker too. Worthy was a very good player
      but I agree a bit overrated.

      All of these guys are worthy of consideration for the Hall of
      Fame, but I think fall just short. Except for Parish: not the
      best center in the world but deserves to be in.

      Worthy by the way has become a sort of character actor / sports-
      caster in Los Angeles. One of the local news stations will
      have him give commentary during their sports broadcast, and will
      often send him out to do humorous stories; the latest one was him
      being outfitted with surf fashion so he could hit the beach.
      But even in the store he couldn't stay upright on a surfboard.
      A pretty likeable TV presence, it turns out.


      --MKT


      -----Original Message-----
      From: harlanzo [mailto:harlanzo@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 7:14 PM
      To: APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [APBR_analysis] Hall of Fame


      Anyone have opinions on the nominees this year? I'll give mine
      quickly:

      Robert Parish: In, was very good (not great) for so long.

      James Worthy: I think he was actually a tad overrated. good but not
      so different from tons of other good scoring small forwards.

      Dennis Johnson: all star on seattle and phoenix decent on Boston.
      closer but not quite.

      Adrian Dantley: had a nice scoring run on utah. but he was a jerk
      and his teams were just as good (if not better) after he was traded/

      Bobby Jones: wow. this one is not even close. role player not much
      more.

      Gus Johnson: was a great power forward but his career was a bit too
      short to get in in my opinion.

      Chet Walker: I never really considered him great or a star. a
      player like this needs a longer career to get in.

      Maurice Cheeks: he really was a good player but always subsidiary to
      true stars. there are many better pguards since.

      Walter DAvis: another really good shooting guard who was not much of
      a defender or passer. I like him but I think there are better
      candidates.
    • Mike G
      ... Agree, Parish should go in for several reasons: humongous career totals, key man on great teams; and he stepped up his game when Bird faltered, keeping
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 12, 2003
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        --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "harlanzo" <harlanzo@y...>
        wrote:
        > Anyone have opinions on the nominees this year? I'll give mine
        > quickly:
        >
        > Robert Parish: In, was very good (not great) for so long.

        Agree, Parish should go in for several reasons: humongous career
        totals, key man on great teams; and he stepped up his game when Bird
        faltered, keeping the Celtics respectable.

        >
        > James Worthy: I think he was actually a tad overrated. good but
        not
        > so different from tons of other good scoring small forwards.

        Ignoring the postseason, this would be a true statement. Postseason,
        he was monster. Marginal Top 50 in my book.

        >
        > Dennis Johnson: all star on seattle and phoenix decent on Boston.
        > closer but not quite.

        DJ is a sentimental choice. Had a knack for big plays and was a
        defensive stalwart

        >
        > Adrian Dantley: had a nice scoring run on utah. but he was a jerk
        > and his teams were just as good (if not better) after he was traded/

        Hmmm. He was an offensive superman. I don't see much in comparing
        before and after a trade. If the trade is even, there shouldn't be a
        difference.

        In 1983, AD was out all but 22 games, and Utah's W-L % was .349
        In '84, he played 79 G, and Utah was .549
        In '85, he played 55 G, and Utah was .496

        Though that's only part of the story; but on this one, I think
        Harlan's synopsis is stooping just a bit.

        >
        > Bobby Jones: wow. this one is not even close. role player not
        much
        > more.

        I keep forgetting, there are superstars and role players, and nothing
        in between.

        ....

        Overall, agree with Harlan except for his shortchanging Dantley and
        Jones, and Worthy's remarkable playoff performances.

        While I'm at it, Harlan's website is itself terrific stuff. He's
        really steeped in the best basketball traditions, and knowledgeable
        where it matters. Check it out if you haven't:

        http://www.hoopsanalyst.com/
      • Ed Weiland
        ... Agreed ... Overrated, but also an key part of a great all-time team. In the past this has been given a lot of weight. I m guessing Worthy gets in. I say he
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 12, 2003
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          --- harlanzo <harlanzo@...> wrote:
          > Anyone have opinions on the nominees this year?
          > I'll give mine
          > quickly:
          >
          > Robert Parish: In, was very good (not great) for so
          > long.

          Agreed
          >
          > James Worthy: I think he was actually a tad
          > overrated. good but not
          > so different from tons of other good scoring small
          > forwards.

          Overrated, but also an key part of a great all-time
          team. In the past this has been given a lot of weight.
          I'm guessing Worthy gets in. I say he deserves the
          honor too.
          >
          > Dennis Johnson: all star on seattle and phoenix
          > decent on Boston.
          > closer but not quite.

          Long career, played for more than one champion. My
          first impulse is that he doesn't belong, but if Worthy
          gets in you have to look at DJ too, IMO.
          >
          > Adrian Dantley: had a nice scoring run on utah. but
          > he was a jerk
          > and his teams were just as good (if not better)
          > after he was traded/

          Agreed. He could score, but didn't seem to have much
          impact on his team's success.

          >
          > Bobby Jones: wow. this one is not even close. role
          > player not much
          > more.

          Jones was all-defensive first team 10 times, two of
          those in the ABA, and he played in 4 all-star games.
          He was more than a role player, but probably not a
          HOFer.


          >
          > Gus Johnson: was a great power forward but his
          > career was a bit too
          > short to get in in my opinion.
          >
          > Chet Walker: I never really considered him great or
          > a star. a
          > player like this needs a longer career to get in.
          >
          > Maurice Cheeks: he really was a good player but
          > always subsidiary to
          > true stars. there are many better pguards since.
          >
          > Walter DAvis: another really good shooting guard who
          > was not much of
          > a defender or passer. I like him but I think there
          > are better
          > candidates.

          Agreed on Johnson, Walker and Davis. Cheeks deserves a
          longer look, IMO. Top ten all-time in steals and
          assists. Career FG pct. of .523 is incredible for a
          PG. I think there's a solid case here for Mo.

          Ed
          >
          >
        • harlanzo
          ... Postseason, ... I would not want to overweigh his post season career too much. With Magic gone, Worthy was not great in the playoffs. I would not want to
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 12, 2003
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            --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Mike G" <msg_53@h...> wrote:

            > >
            > > James Worthy: I think he was actually a tad overrated. good but
            > not
            > > so different from tons of other good scoring small forwards.
            >
            > Ignoring the postseason, this would be a true statement.
            Postseason,
            > he was monster. Marginal Top 50 in my book.

            I would not want to overweigh his post season career too much. With
            Magic gone, Worthy was not great in the playoffs. I would not want
            to overcredit a subsidiary player in the playoffs if a similar
            player (Mike Mitchell, Mike Woodson) might have been able to rack up
            good playoff games with magic too. This is not to say that these
            guys are as good as Worthy but there are a bunch of SFs(Bernard
            King, Adrian Dantley, Chris Mullin etc) who were good and had some
            good playoff games too.

            >> >
            > > Adrian Dantley: had a nice scoring run on utah. but he was a
            jerk
            > > and his teams were just as good (if not better) after he was
            traded/
            >
            > Hmmm. He was an offensive superman. I don't see much in
            comparing
            > before and after a trade. If the trade is even, there shouldn't
            be a
            > difference.
            >
            > In 1983, AD was out all but 22 games, and Utah's W-L % was .349
            > In '84, he played 79 G, and Utah was .549
            > In '85, he played 55 G, and Utah was .496
            >
            > Though that's only part of the story; but on this one, I think
            > Harlan's synopsis is stooping just a bit.
            >


            Here are Dantley's yearly records on Utah and his ppg:

            1979-80 24-58 and 28.0
            1980-81 28-54 and 30.7
            1981-82 25-57 and 30.3
            1982-83 30-52 and DAntley injured for all but 22 games
            1983-84 45-37 and 30.6
            1984-85 41-41 and 26.7
            1985-86 42-40 and 29.8
            1986-87 44-38 and Dantley traded for Tripucka

            On Detroit Dantley was good but the team won two championships after
            he was traded. My conclusion, Dantley was a good scorer but hardly
            irreplaceable. You combined that with the fact that a lot of people
            hated him, there is strong argument is not HOF material.



            > >
            > > Bobby Jones: wow. this one is not even close. role player not
            > much
            > > more.
            >
            > I keep forgetting, there are superstars and role players, and
            nothing
            > in between.
            >

            Role player is an oversimplification but he went from good regular
            to role player. He still is not close to HOF.
            ....
            >
            >> While I'm at it, Harlan's website is itself terrific stuff. He's
            > really steeped in the best basketball traditions, and
            knowledgeable
            > where it matters. Check it out if you haven't:
            >
            > http://www.hoopsanalyst.com/

            Thanks for the pop Mike. I'll use the opportunity to again solicit
            articles for the site. We have gotten a number of people posted on
            the site from apbr_analysis. anything hoops related you want to
            write about is welcomed and encouraged. If you don't want to write
            too much, we also like people unveiling methods/formulae and lists
            ranking players as a result. DeanO recently did it, it's fun easy
            and not time consuming. You can reach me at either
            info@... or harlanzo@.... Thanks
          • aaronkoo
            ... not ... I ll play dissenter here. Parish and Worthy are very comparable players in terms of overall contribution. They were very valuable when playing
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 12, 2003
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              --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "harlanzo" <harlanzo@y...>
              wrote:
              > Anyone have opinions on the nominees this year? I'll give mine
              > quickly:
              >
              > Robert Parish: In, was very good (not great) for so long.
              >
              > James Worthy: I think he was actually a tad overrated. good but
              not
              > so different from tons of other good scoring small forwards.
              >

              I'll play dissenter here. Parish and Worthy are very comparable
              players in terms of overall contribution. They were very valuable
              when playing with great players. They didn't have to do a lot
              offensively or defensively. What they did, they did very well. The
              fact that Parish did it longer doesn't mean much to me but means
              something. Neither were very successful when they had to go without
              the big stars but their primes correlated with when the stars were
              there and they were not in their primes when on their own. From an
              objective perspective, I keep these guys out of the Hall. From a
              relative perspective, I'm sure you can find guys in the Hall that
              don't deserve it as much as these guys. (Haven't looked at their
              playoff numbers.)

              152 and 110 are the respective HOF monitor points from the reference.

              > Dennis Johnson: all star on seattle and phoenix decent on Boston.
              > closer but not quite.
              >

              No. 134.

              > Adrian Dantley: had a nice scoring run on utah. but he was a jerk
              > and his teams were just as good (if not better) after he was traded/
              >

              College career impressive and important. Pro career -- was great
              offensive player but horrid defensive player to the point it almost
              neutralized his offense. Guys didn't really like playing with him --
              and I can't measure that. He's a legit possibility for his pro
              career, but I'd definitely hesitate. 130.

              > Bobby Jones: wow. this one is not even close. role player not
              much
              > more.

              Role player offensively but legitimately great defender. If some of
              those old Celtics could get in, he could. But I maintain the high
              standards of MikeT. 93.

              >
              > Gus Johnson: was a great power forward but his career was a bit too
              > short to get in in my opinion.
              >
              > Chet Walker: I never really considered him great or a star. a
              > player like this needs a longer career to get in.
              >
              > Maurice Cheeks: he really was a good player but always subsidiary
              to
              > true stars. there are many better pguards since.
              >
              > Walter DAvis: another really good shooting guard who was not much
              of
              > a defender or passer. I like him but I think there are better
              > candidates.

              100. 113. 118. 112.

              Worthy's HOF Monitor points actually among the lowest of the group.
            • Gary Collard
              ... In, easily, due to career value. ... In, not a slam dunk but his playoff performances and being a key to a dynasty team puts him over the top. ... Very
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 12, 2003
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                harlanzo wrote:
                >
                > Anyone have opinions on the nominees this year? I'll give mine
                > quickly:
                >
                > Robert Parish: In, was very good (not great) for so long.

                In, easily, due to career value.

                > James Worthy: I think he was actually a tad overrated. good but not
                > so different from tons of other good scoring small forwards.

                In, not a slam dunk but his playoff performances and being a key to a
                dynasty team puts him over the top.

                > Dennis Johnson: all star on seattle and phoenix decent on Boston.
                > closer but not quite.

                Very close, falls a bit short to me but would not be a bad selection.

                > Adrian Dantley: had a nice scoring run on utah. but he was a jerk
                > and his teams were just as good (if not better) after he was traded

                Such a liability on defense and poor rebounder that I can't seriously
                consider him.

                > Bobby Jones: wow. this one is not even close. role player not much
                > more.

                The Bill Mazeroski candidate. Great defensive player, but others have been
                at least as good so no way.

                > Gus Johnson: was a great power forward but his career was a bit too
                > short to get in in my opinion.

                Same for me, that short woudl require a dominant player.

                > Chet Walker: I never really considered him great or a star. a
                > player like this needs a longer career to get in.

                Like DJ, I do not support him but would not be horrified if he got in.

                > Maurice Cheeks: he really was a good player but always subsidiary to
                > true stars. there are many better pguards since.

                Yes, excellent but not a HOFer.

                > Walter DAvis: another really good shooting guard who was not much of
                > a defender or passer. I like him but I think there are better
                > candidates.

                Not a serious candidate.

                For the other North American non-college candidates, Chick Hearn,
                Meadowlark Lemon and Tex Winter get my vote.

                --
                Gary Collard
                SABR-L Moderator
                collardg@...

                "If you embrace containment, you must accept proliferation, and
                proliferation - not just unchecked but accelerated - will make the
                violent century just passed seem an era of remarkable tranquility in
                comparison." -- Senator John McCain
              • John Hollinger
                I think you re all forgetting the HOF is combined college and pro. I agree with the sentiment that Worthy was mightily overrated as a pro, but collegiately he
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 15, 2003
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                  I think you're all forgetting the HOF is combined college and pro. I
                  agree with the sentiment that Worthy was mightily overrated as a pro,
                  but collegiately he was the national player of the year on a team
                  that won the NCAA title, which means he's walking right in. Worthy
                  was also MVP of the 88 finals, which has to count for something.

                  After Worthy, I'd take DJ over Parish for one reason: He was the best
                  player on a team that won the championship. He also made all-NBA
                  once. Chief could never come close to making that claim. DJ can go in
                  the Hall's new "All-Ugly" wing.

                  He's my third choice from the list, but I actually think Parish
                  belong as well. IMHO the Hall has too few professional players and
                  far too many college coaches.

                  Dantley is No. 4 on the list. 30 ppg four straight years is hard to
                  ignore, but he never made all-NBA first team and only made second-
                  team twice. I say leave him out.

                  The other guys are a bunch of Vada Pinsons. Nice stats, good players,
                  but stay out of my Hall please.





                  --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, Gary Collard <collardg@e...>
                  wrote:
                  > harlanzo wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Anyone have opinions on the nominees this year? I'll give mine
                  > > quickly:
                  > >
                  > > Robert Parish: In, was very good (not great) for so long.
                  >
                  > In, easily, due to career value.
                  >
                  > > James Worthy: I think he was actually a tad overrated. good but
                  not
                  > > so different from tons of other good scoring small forwards.
                  >
                  > In, not a slam dunk but his playoff performances and being a key to
                  a
                  > dynasty team puts him over the top.
                  >
                  > > Dennis Johnson: all star on seattle and phoenix decent on Boston.
                  > > closer but not quite.
                  >
                  > Very close, falls a bit short to me but would not be a bad
                  selection.
                  >
                  > > Adrian Dantley: had a nice scoring run on utah. but he was a jerk
                  > > and his teams were just as good (if not better) after he was
                  traded
                  >
                  > Such a liability on defense and poor rebounder that I can't
                  seriously
                  > consider him.
                  >
                  > > Bobby Jones: wow. this one is not even close. role player not
                  much
                  > > more.
                  >
                  > The Bill Mazeroski candidate. Great defensive player, but others
                  have been
                  > at least as good so no way.
                  >
                  > > Gus Johnson: was a great power forward but his career was a bit
                  too
                  > > short to get in in my opinion.
                  >
                  > Same for me, that short woudl require a dominant player.
                  >
                  > > Chet Walker: I never really considered him great or a star. a
                  > > player like this needs a longer career to get in.
                  >
                  > Like DJ, I do not support him but would not be horrified if he got
                  in.
                  >
                  > > Maurice Cheeks: he really was a good player but always subsidiary
                  to
                  > > true stars. there are many better pguards since.
                  >
                  > Yes, excellent but not a HOFer.
                  >
                  > > Walter DAvis: another really good shooting guard who was not much
                  of
                  > > a defender or passer. I like him but I think there are better
                  > > candidates.
                  >
                  > Not a serious candidate.
                  >
                  > For the other North American non-college candidates, Chick Hearn,
                  > Meadowlark Lemon and Tex Winter get my vote.
                  >
                  > --
                  > Gary Collard
                  > SABR-L Moderator
                  > collardg@e...
                  >
                  > "If you embrace containment, you must accept proliferation, and
                  > proliferation - not just unchecked but accelerated - will make the
                  > violent century just passed seem an era of remarkable tranquility in
                  > comparison." -- Senator John McCain
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