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Hall of Fame

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  • harlanzo
    Anyone have opinions on the nominees this year? I ll give mine quickly: Robert Parish: In, was very good (not great) for so long. James Worthy: I think he
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 11, 2003
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      Anyone have opinions on the nominees this year? I'll give mine
      quickly:

      Robert Parish: In, was very good (not great) for so long.

      James Worthy: I think he was actually a tad overrated. good but not
      so different from tons of other good scoring small forwards.

      Dennis Johnson: all star on seattle and phoenix decent on Boston.
      closer but not quite.

      Adrian Dantley: had a nice scoring run on utah. but he was a jerk
      and his teams were just as good (if not better) after he was traded/

      Bobby Jones: wow. this one is not even close. role player not much
      more.

      Gus Johnson: was a great power forward but his career was a bit too
      short to get in in my opinion.

      Chet Walker: I never really considered him great or a star. a
      player like this needs a longer career to get in.

      Maurice Cheeks: he really was a good player but always subsidiary to
      true stars. there are many better pguards since.

      Walter DAvis: another really good shooting guard who was not much of
      a defender or passer. I like him but I think there are better
      candidates.
    • john wallace craven
      ... Wasn t he one of the NBA Top 50 of All Time? I agree, overrated. A good scorer, not the greatest defender in the world, relatively short career. ... Also,
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 11, 2003
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        On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, harlanzo wrote:

        > Anyone have opinions on the nominees this year? I'll give mine
        > quickly:
        >
        > Robert Parish: In, was very good (not great) for so long.
        >
        > James Worthy: I think he was actually a tad overrated. good but not
        > so different from tons of other good scoring small forwards.

        Wasn't he one of the NBA Top 50 of All Time? I agree, overrated. A good
        scorer, not the greatest defender in the world, relatively short career.

        >
        > Dennis Johnson: all star on seattle and phoenix decent on Boston.
        > closer but not quite.

        Also, he can't get in because it will ruin the Curse of 1978-9. No member
        of the championship Supersonics can ever make it.

        >
        > Adrian Dantley: had a nice scoring run on utah. but he was a jerk
        > and his teams were just as good (if not better) after he was traded/

        Hasn't Adrian Dantley been out of the league for well over a decade now?
        If he hasn't gotten in yet, he's got no chance anyway.

        >
        > Bobby Jones: wow. this one is not even close. role player not much
        > more.

        The golfer?

        >
        > Gus Johnson: was a great power forward but his career was a bit too
        > short to get in in my opinion.

        See Dennis Johnson. This applies double to Jack Sikma, who apparently
        didn't even get nominated.

        >
        > Chet Walker: I never really considered him great or a star. a
        > player like this needs a longer career to get in.
        >
        > Maurice Cheeks: he really was a good player but always subsidiary to
        > true stars. there are many better pguards since.
        >
        > Walter DAvis: another really good shooting guard who was not much of
        > a defender or passer. I like him but I think there are better
        > candidates.

        When is Barkley going to be eligible?

        John Craven
      • Michael Tamada
        I pretty much agree with all of Harlanzo s calls. However I like to have fairly strict standards. One thing which some will point out: Dantley s college
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 11, 2003
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          I pretty much agree with all of Harlanzo's calls. However I
          like to have fairly strict standards.

          One thing which some will point out: Dantley's college career
          will give him bonus points which could push him in. That may
          very well be true; I don't know enough about college basketball
          to judge. But based on his pro career, thumbs down from me.

          It kills me to give thumbs down to players who played the game
          right and were so good: DJ, Jones (who in fact was a bit more
          than a role player, though a superstar he was not), Cheeks,
          Davis. Johnson and Walker too. Worthy was a very good player
          but I agree a bit overrated.

          All of these guys are worthy of consideration for the Hall of
          Fame, but I think fall just short. Except for Parish: not the
          best center in the world but deserves to be in.

          Worthy by the way has become a sort of character actor / sports-
          caster in Los Angeles. One of the local news stations will
          have him give commentary during their sports broadcast, and will
          often send him out to do humorous stories; the latest one was him
          being outfitted with surf fashion so he could hit the beach.
          But even in the store he couldn't stay upright on a surfboard.
          A pretty likeable TV presence, it turns out.


          --MKT


          -----Original Message-----
          From: harlanzo [mailto:harlanzo@...]
          Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 7:14 PM
          To: APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [APBR_analysis] Hall of Fame


          Anyone have opinions on the nominees this year? I'll give mine
          quickly:

          Robert Parish: In, was very good (not great) for so long.

          James Worthy: I think he was actually a tad overrated. good but not
          so different from tons of other good scoring small forwards.

          Dennis Johnson: all star on seattle and phoenix decent on Boston.
          closer but not quite.

          Adrian Dantley: had a nice scoring run on utah. but he was a jerk
          and his teams were just as good (if not better) after he was traded/

          Bobby Jones: wow. this one is not even close. role player not much
          more.

          Gus Johnson: was a great power forward but his career was a bit too
          short to get in in my opinion.

          Chet Walker: I never really considered him great or a star. a
          player like this needs a longer career to get in.

          Maurice Cheeks: he really was a good player but always subsidiary to
          true stars. there are many better pguards since.

          Walter DAvis: another really good shooting guard who was not much of
          a defender or passer. I like him but I think there are better
          candidates.
        • Mike G
          ... Agree, Parish should go in for several reasons: humongous career totals, key man on great teams; and he stepped up his game when Bird faltered, keeping
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 12, 2003
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            --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "harlanzo" <harlanzo@y...>
            wrote:
            > Anyone have opinions on the nominees this year? I'll give mine
            > quickly:
            >
            > Robert Parish: In, was very good (not great) for so long.

            Agree, Parish should go in for several reasons: humongous career
            totals, key man on great teams; and he stepped up his game when Bird
            faltered, keeping the Celtics respectable.

            >
            > James Worthy: I think he was actually a tad overrated. good but
            not
            > so different from tons of other good scoring small forwards.

            Ignoring the postseason, this would be a true statement. Postseason,
            he was monster. Marginal Top 50 in my book.

            >
            > Dennis Johnson: all star on seattle and phoenix decent on Boston.
            > closer but not quite.

            DJ is a sentimental choice. Had a knack for big plays and was a
            defensive stalwart

            >
            > Adrian Dantley: had a nice scoring run on utah. but he was a jerk
            > and his teams were just as good (if not better) after he was traded/

            Hmmm. He was an offensive superman. I don't see much in comparing
            before and after a trade. If the trade is even, there shouldn't be a
            difference.

            In 1983, AD was out all but 22 games, and Utah's W-L % was .349
            In '84, he played 79 G, and Utah was .549
            In '85, he played 55 G, and Utah was .496

            Though that's only part of the story; but on this one, I think
            Harlan's synopsis is stooping just a bit.

            >
            > Bobby Jones: wow. this one is not even close. role player not
            much
            > more.

            I keep forgetting, there are superstars and role players, and nothing
            in between.

            ....

            Overall, agree with Harlan except for his shortchanging Dantley and
            Jones, and Worthy's remarkable playoff performances.

            While I'm at it, Harlan's website is itself terrific stuff. He's
            really steeped in the best basketball traditions, and knowledgeable
            where it matters. Check it out if you haven't:

            http://www.hoopsanalyst.com/
          • Ed Weiland
            ... Agreed ... Overrated, but also an key part of a great all-time team. In the past this has been given a lot of weight. I m guessing Worthy gets in. I say he
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 12, 2003
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              --- harlanzo <harlanzo@...> wrote:
              > Anyone have opinions on the nominees this year?
              > I'll give mine
              > quickly:
              >
              > Robert Parish: In, was very good (not great) for so
              > long.

              Agreed
              >
              > James Worthy: I think he was actually a tad
              > overrated. good but not
              > so different from tons of other good scoring small
              > forwards.

              Overrated, but also an key part of a great all-time
              team. In the past this has been given a lot of weight.
              I'm guessing Worthy gets in. I say he deserves the
              honor too.
              >
              > Dennis Johnson: all star on seattle and phoenix
              > decent on Boston.
              > closer but not quite.

              Long career, played for more than one champion. My
              first impulse is that he doesn't belong, but if Worthy
              gets in you have to look at DJ too, IMO.
              >
              > Adrian Dantley: had a nice scoring run on utah. but
              > he was a jerk
              > and his teams were just as good (if not better)
              > after he was traded/

              Agreed. He could score, but didn't seem to have much
              impact on his team's success.

              >
              > Bobby Jones: wow. this one is not even close. role
              > player not much
              > more.

              Jones was all-defensive first team 10 times, two of
              those in the ABA, and he played in 4 all-star games.
              He was more than a role player, but probably not a
              HOFer.


              >
              > Gus Johnson: was a great power forward but his
              > career was a bit too
              > short to get in in my opinion.
              >
              > Chet Walker: I never really considered him great or
              > a star. a
              > player like this needs a longer career to get in.
              >
              > Maurice Cheeks: he really was a good player but
              > always subsidiary to
              > true stars. there are many better pguards since.
              >
              > Walter DAvis: another really good shooting guard who
              > was not much of
              > a defender or passer. I like him but I think there
              > are better
              > candidates.

              Agreed on Johnson, Walker and Davis. Cheeks deserves a
              longer look, IMO. Top ten all-time in steals and
              assists. Career FG pct. of .523 is incredible for a
              PG. I think there's a solid case here for Mo.

              Ed
              >
              >
            • harlanzo
              ... Postseason, ... I would not want to overweigh his post season career too much. With Magic gone, Worthy was not great in the playoffs. I would not want to
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 12, 2003
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                --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Mike G" <msg_53@h...> wrote:

                > >
                > > James Worthy: I think he was actually a tad overrated. good but
                > not
                > > so different from tons of other good scoring small forwards.
                >
                > Ignoring the postseason, this would be a true statement.
                Postseason,
                > he was monster. Marginal Top 50 in my book.

                I would not want to overweigh his post season career too much. With
                Magic gone, Worthy was not great in the playoffs. I would not want
                to overcredit a subsidiary player in the playoffs if a similar
                player (Mike Mitchell, Mike Woodson) might have been able to rack up
                good playoff games with magic too. This is not to say that these
                guys are as good as Worthy but there are a bunch of SFs(Bernard
                King, Adrian Dantley, Chris Mullin etc) who were good and had some
                good playoff games too.

                >> >
                > > Adrian Dantley: had a nice scoring run on utah. but he was a
                jerk
                > > and his teams were just as good (if not better) after he was
                traded/
                >
                > Hmmm. He was an offensive superman. I don't see much in
                comparing
                > before and after a trade. If the trade is even, there shouldn't
                be a
                > difference.
                >
                > In 1983, AD was out all but 22 games, and Utah's W-L % was .349
                > In '84, he played 79 G, and Utah was .549
                > In '85, he played 55 G, and Utah was .496
                >
                > Though that's only part of the story; but on this one, I think
                > Harlan's synopsis is stooping just a bit.
                >


                Here are Dantley's yearly records on Utah and his ppg:

                1979-80 24-58 and 28.0
                1980-81 28-54 and 30.7
                1981-82 25-57 and 30.3
                1982-83 30-52 and DAntley injured for all but 22 games
                1983-84 45-37 and 30.6
                1984-85 41-41 and 26.7
                1985-86 42-40 and 29.8
                1986-87 44-38 and Dantley traded for Tripucka

                On Detroit Dantley was good but the team won two championships after
                he was traded. My conclusion, Dantley was a good scorer but hardly
                irreplaceable. You combined that with the fact that a lot of people
                hated him, there is strong argument is not HOF material.



                > >
                > > Bobby Jones: wow. this one is not even close. role player not
                > much
                > > more.
                >
                > I keep forgetting, there are superstars and role players, and
                nothing
                > in between.
                >

                Role player is an oversimplification but he went from good regular
                to role player. He still is not close to HOF.
                ....
                >
                >> While I'm at it, Harlan's website is itself terrific stuff. He's
                > really steeped in the best basketball traditions, and
                knowledgeable
                > where it matters. Check it out if you haven't:
                >
                > http://www.hoopsanalyst.com/

                Thanks for the pop Mike. I'll use the opportunity to again solicit
                articles for the site. We have gotten a number of people posted on
                the site from apbr_analysis. anything hoops related you want to
                write about is welcomed and encouraged. If you don't want to write
                too much, we also like people unveiling methods/formulae and lists
                ranking players as a result. DeanO recently did it, it's fun easy
                and not time consuming. You can reach me at either
                info@... or harlanzo@.... Thanks
              • aaronkoo
                ... not ... I ll play dissenter here. Parish and Worthy are very comparable players in terms of overall contribution. They were very valuable when playing
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 12, 2003
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                  --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "harlanzo" <harlanzo@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > Anyone have opinions on the nominees this year? I'll give mine
                  > quickly:
                  >
                  > Robert Parish: In, was very good (not great) for so long.
                  >
                  > James Worthy: I think he was actually a tad overrated. good but
                  not
                  > so different from tons of other good scoring small forwards.
                  >

                  I'll play dissenter here. Parish and Worthy are very comparable
                  players in terms of overall contribution. They were very valuable
                  when playing with great players. They didn't have to do a lot
                  offensively or defensively. What they did, they did very well. The
                  fact that Parish did it longer doesn't mean much to me but means
                  something. Neither were very successful when they had to go without
                  the big stars but their primes correlated with when the stars were
                  there and they were not in their primes when on their own. From an
                  objective perspective, I keep these guys out of the Hall. From a
                  relative perspective, I'm sure you can find guys in the Hall that
                  don't deserve it as much as these guys. (Haven't looked at their
                  playoff numbers.)

                  152 and 110 are the respective HOF monitor points from the reference.

                  > Dennis Johnson: all star on seattle and phoenix decent on Boston.
                  > closer but not quite.
                  >

                  No. 134.

                  > Adrian Dantley: had a nice scoring run on utah. but he was a jerk
                  > and his teams were just as good (if not better) after he was traded/
                  >

                  College career impressive and important. Pro career -- was great
                  offensive player but horrid defensive player to the point it almost
                  neutralized his offense. Guys didn't really like playing with him --
                  and I can't measure that. He's a legit possibility for his pro
                  career, but I'd definitely hesitate. 130.

                  > Bobby Jones: wow. this one is not even close. role player not
                  much
                  > more.

                  Role player offensively but legitimately great defender. If some of
                  those old Celtics could get in, he could. But I maintain the high
                  standards of MikeT. 93.

                  >
                  > Gus Johnson: was a great power forward but his career was a bit too
                  > short to get in in my opinion.
                  >
                  > Chet Walker: I never really considered him great or a star. a
                  > player like this needs a longer career to get in.
                  >
                  > Maurice Cheeks: he really was a good player but always subsidiary
                  to
                  > true stars. there are many better pguards since.
                  >
                  > Walter DAvis: another really good shooting guard who was not much
                  of
                  > a defender or passer. I like him but I think there are better
                  > candidates.

                  100. 113. 118. 112.

                  Worthy's HOF Monitor points actually among the lowest of the group.
                • Gary Collard
                  ... In, easily, due to career value. ... In, not a slam dunk but his playoff performances and being a key to a dynasty team puts him over the top. ... Very
                  Message 8 of 9 , Mar 12, 2003
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                    harlanzo wrote:
                    >
                    > Anyone have opinions on the nominees this year? I'll give mine
                    > quickly:
                    >
                    > Robert Parish: In, was very good (not great) for so long.

                    In, easily, due to career value.

                    > James Worthy: I think he was actually a tad overrated. good but not
                    > so different from tons of other good scoring small forwards.

                    In, not a slam dunk but his playoff performances and being a key to a
                    dynasty team puts him over the top.

                    > Dennis Johnson: all star on seattle and phoenix decent on Boston.
                    > closer but not quite.

                    Very close, falls a bit short to me but would not be a bad selection.

                    > Adrian Dantley: had a nice scoring run on utah. but he was a jerk
                    > and his teams were just as good (if not better) after he was traded

                    Such a liability on defense and poor rebounder that I can't seriously
                    consider him.

                    > Bobby Jones: wow. this one is not even close. role player not much
                    > more.

                    The Bill Mazeroski candidate. Great defensive player, but others have been
                    at least as good so no way.

                    > Gus Johnson: was a great power forward but his career was a bit too
                    > short to get in in my opinion.

                    Same for me, that short woudl require a dominant player.

                    > Chet Walker: I never really considered him great or a star. a
                    > player like this needs a longer career to get in.

                    Like DJ, I do not support him but would not be horrified if he got in.

                    > Maurice Cheeks: he really was a good player but always subsidiary to
                    > true stars. there are many better pguards since.

                    Yes, excellent but not a HOFer.

                    > Walter DAvis: another really good shooting guard who was not much of
                    > a defender or passer. I like him but I think there are better
                    > candidates.

                    Not a serious candidate.

                    For the other North American non-college candidates, Chick Hearn,
                    Meadowlark Lemon and Tex Winter get my vote.

                    --
                    Gary Collard
                    SABR-L Moderator
                    collardg@...

                    "If you embrace containment, you must accept proliferation, and
                    proliferation - not just unchecked but accelerated - will make the
                    violent century just passed seem an era of remarkable tranquility in
                    comparison." -- Senator John McCain
                  • John Hollinger
                    I think you re all forgetting the HOF is combined college and pro. I agree with the sentiment that Worthy was mightily overrated as a pro, but collegiately he
                    Message 9 of 9 , Mar 15, 2003
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                      I think you're all forgetting the HOF is combined college and pro. I
                      agree with the sentiment that Worthy was mightily overrated as a pro,
                      but collegiately he was the national player of the year on a team
                      that won the NCAA title, which means he's walking right in. Worthy
                      was also MVP of the 88 finals, which has to count for something.

                      After Worthy, I'd take DJ over Parish for one reason: He was the best
                      player on a team that won the championship. He also made all-NBA
                      once. Chief could never come close to making that claim. DJ can go in
                      the Hall's new "All-Ugly" wing.

                      He's my third choice from the list, but I actually think Parish
                      belong as well. IMHO the Hall has too few professional players and
                      far too many college coaches.

                      Dantley is No. 4 on the list. 30 ppg four straight years is hard to
                      ignore, but he never made all-NBA first team and only made second-
                      team twice. I say leave him out.

                      The other guys are a bunch of Vada Pinsons. Nice stats, good players,
                      but stay out of my Hall please.





                      --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, Gary Collard <collardg@e...>
                      wrote:
                      > harlanzo wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Anyone have opinions on the nominees this year? I'll give mine
                      > > quickly:
                      > >
                      > > Robert Parish: In, was very good (not great) for so long.
                      >
                      > In, easily, due to career value.
                      >
                      > > James Worthy: I think he was actually a tad overrated. good but
                      not
                      > > so different from tons of other good scoring small forwards.
                      >
                      > In, not a slam dunk but his playoff performances and being a key to
                      a
                      > dynasty team puts him over the top.
                      >
                      > > Dennis Johnson: all star on seattle and phoenix decent on Boston.
                      > > closer but not quite.
                      >
                      > Very close, falls a bit short to me but would not be a bad
                      selection.
                      >
                      > > Adrian Dantley: had a nice scoring run on utah. but he was a jerk
                      > > and his teams were just as good (if not better) after he was
                      traded
                      >
                      > Such a liability on defense and poor rebounder that I can't
                      seriously
                      > consider him.
                      >
                      > > Bobby Jones: wow. this one is not even close. role player not
                      much
                      > > more.
                      >
                      > The Bill Mazeroski candidate. Great defensive player, but others
                      have been
                      > at least as good so no way.
                      >
                      > > Gus Johnson: was a great power forward but his career was a bit
                      too
                      > > short to get in in my opinion.
                      >
                      > Same for me, that short woudl require a dominant player.
                      >
                      > > Chet Walker: I never really considered him great or a star. a
                      > > player like this needs a longer career to get in.
                      >
                      > Like DJ, I do not support him but would not be horrified if he got
                      in.
                      >
                      > > Maurice Cheeks: he really was a good player but always subsidiary
                      to
                      > > true stars. there are many better pguards since.
                      >
                      > Yes, excellent but not a HOFer.
                      >
                      > > Walter DAvis: another really good shooting guard who was not much
                      of
                      > > a defender or passer. I like him but I think there are better
                      > > candidates.
                      >
                      > Not a serious candidate.
                      >
                      > For the other North American non-college candidates, Chick Hearn,
                      > Meadowlark Lemon and Tex Winter get my vote.
                      >
                      > --
                      > Gary Collard
                      > SABR-L Moderator
                      > collardg@e...
                      >
                      > "If you embrace containment, you must accept proliferation, and
                      > proliferation - not just unchecked but accelerated - will make the
                      > violent century just passed seem an era of remarkable tranquility in
                      > comparison." -- Senator John McCain
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