Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [APBR_analysis] Re: Nets trades: Why (again)?

Expand Messages
  • Al Hoffman
    ... Don t forget Isiah Thomas. He was also a scoring point early in his career. As Detroit s arc progressed and others emerged (Dantley, Dumars, etc...), his
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 4 6:28 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      harlanzo@... wrote:
      >
      > I understand the preference for a pure point guard like Kidd is. In
      > fact he is the second or third best passer I have ever seen (I go
      > back to 84). However, disdain for scoring point guards is not always
      > fair as we can see that other score-first point guards (ie KJ,
      > PAyton, Tim Hardaway) have led very good teams in the past.

      Don't forget Isiah Thomas. He was also a scoring point early in his career.
      As Detroit's arc progressed and others emerged (Dantley, Dumars, etc...),
      his scoring curtailed. In fact, there is an anecdote in, IIRC, "The
      Franchise" by Cameron Stauth about Thomas being royally teed off after a
      playoff win over Chicago. Thomas had scored 40 points or so in a close win
      & Thomas said something like "if I have to score like this then we'll never
      win a championship." But Isiah is, to me, the prototype of a scoring PG
      who changed his game to win a title. Can Marbury do the same if his team
      gets closer to that level?

      Al
    • Dean Oliver
      ... Not being an NBA Insider, but knowing a few people, I can say that the league is pretty split on the trade. Statistically, fans are definitely split, as
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 4 11:34 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In APBR_analysis@y..., Jim Hekel <jhekel@y...> wrote:
        > You're entitled to your opinion, but I think most NBA
        > insiders are scratching their head on this one. If the
        > Suns were so intent on trading the best point guard in
        > the game, you would think they could get more than
        > Marbury. This deal only makes sense if Phoenix also
        > gets Van Horn or Kenyon Martin, or better yet, both.
        > Marbury is a good example of a guy who's box score
        > looks great, but it doesn't give a full picture of his
        > value, or lack of the same. That's my opinion. Jim
        > Hekel, Rowley, Iowa.

        Not being an NBA Insider, but knowing a few people, I can say that
        the league is pretty split on the trade. Statistically, fans are
        definitely split, as I've seen polls on websites with a lot 51-49%
        votes. That implies that the Suns could not have gotten more for
        Kidd.

        Some numbers from 2001:

        . Scor. Poss. Floor RTG Points Game-by-Game
        Player Poss. . Pct. . Prod. Win% Win Loss
        Marbury 760 1507 0.505 108.7 1639 0.552 37 30
        Kidd 711 1484 0.479 102.1 1516 0.623 48 29

        . Def Stops Def. Net Net Net
        Player Total /Min /Poss Rtg. Win% W L
        Marbury 399 0.156 0.404 107.2 0.557 7.5 6.0
        Kidd 654 0.213 0.541 95.5 0.753 11.0 3.6

        Net Pts/48M
        v1 v2
        Marbury 0.4 10.9
        Kidd 1.6 5.7

        Marbury is the better offensive player right now (not in or before
        '99). Kidd is the better defensive player. Marbury is a more
        volatile player, less predictable (hence the discrepancy between my
        two versions of Net Points per 48 minutes).

        Kidd has always had a better defensive rating than Marbury. Kidd is
        part of the reason the Suns were a very good defensive team this
        year. Other reasons were Coach Skiles and Shawn Marion. Since both
        of those guys are still there (so far), the Suns should again be
        pretty good defensively. That will make Marbury's offense much more
        valuable. I think the concern is that the Suns' offense was pretty
        weak even with Kidd -- will it get worse with Marbury trying to take
        people one-on-one?

        New Jersey does have some potential weapons for Kidd to go to, but no
        one who could really be a star. The new draftees/tradees may work
        out ok. Kidd has been known to breathe life into forwards who run
        the floor -- McDyess and Marion are good examples -- so maybe he'll
        do it with Jason Collins. Maybe he'll do it with Van Horn, but I
        have my doubts about that guy. If NJ can form a defense around Kidd,
        Van Horn, Collins, and SOMEONE (NJ is a frustrating franchise), they
        can get up to 30-35 wins next year. As much as I like Byron Scott,
        I'm not convinced that he can form that good D.

        I look at the trade as pretty close to a wash. My initial reaction
        was that the Nets won out slightly. If I have to give an edge now,
        though, I'd give it to Phoenix.

        Dean Oliver
        Journal of Basketball Studies
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.