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Re: [APBR_analysis] Re: Ballhogs - now we're talking McAdoo!

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  • bchaikin@aol.com
    McAdoo was a superstar and a legit MVP candidate, given just the right conditions. But a limited one -- because the conditions were limited, and even under
    Message 1 of 15 , Sep 13, 2002
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      McAdoo was a superstar and a legit MVP candidate, given just the right
      conditions. But a limited one -- because the conditions were limited, and
      even under those conditions, we're not talking about a championship team.

      "...given just the right conditions..."??? are you kidding? "...limited conditions...". how does a player become a superstar and an MVP under "...just the right limited conditions..."?

      while in buffalo and new york mcadoo played against all of the league's other teams, all of the league's other centers, and dominated like only a few other centers did. how  does that make this "...just the right limites conditions..."?? he was on the court pretty much every game (90% of buf/nyk's games) and all game each game. how does that translate to being a just right/limited condition?...

      bob chaikin
      bchaikin@...




    • harlanzo
      ... I know we are getting into semantics again, but Mcadoo, to me, is a clear hall of famer. He is not on the level of the super superstars who make any team
      Message 2 of 15 , Sep 13, 2002
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        --- In APBR_analysis@y..., bchaikin@a... wrote:
        >
        > McAdoo was a superstar and a legit MVP candidate


        I know we are getting into semantics again, but Mcadoo, to me, is a
        clear hall of famer. He is not on the level of the super superstars
        who make any team they play on instant title contenders but neither
        is Karl Malone. (I think the list is limited to wilt, mj, magic, bird
        and a few others). Still he is a great feature player. the fact he
        couldn't win with the late 70s knicks or pistons (and I think boston)
        is really an indictment of his surrounding talent.

        There was also a comment about Mcadoo's career ending in 86. It
        should be noted that he played in europe from 86-87 nto 92-93. His
        stats were as follows:

        ppg rpg
        86-87 26.1 10.2
        87-88 28.1 8.5
        88-89 22.7 7.9
        89-90 25.8 7.5
        90-91 33.0 9.5
        91-92 26.9 9.4
        92-93 22.0 6.5

        I know european ball was not the highest quality but this is still
        impressive and indicative that Mcadoo could've played in the NBA for
        few more years.
      • bchaikin@aol.com
        i knew mcadoo had played in europe, and that he had posted really good numbers (considering his age), but had never seen them...thanks.... might you know how
        Message 3 of 15 , Sep 14, 2002
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          i knew mcadoo had played in europe, and that he had posted really good numbers (considering his age), but had never seen them...thanks....

          might you know how many games he played each season (i seem remember them only played 2 maybe 3 games a week over there)? what country or teams he played on? was he considered a big star over there? (maybe if you found this info on the web you might have a url reference). i seem to remember watching a special on kobe bryant recently where they showed clips of his father, joe "jellybean" bryant, playing over in europe, who had gone there to play after his 8 yr career in the NBA, so sometime in the mid to late 1980s i'm guessing. he was considered a star over there according to the show....

        • harlanzo
          ... good ... remember them ... teams he ... found this I am not sure what he star power was. Though my brother actually worked in milan for a couple of years
          Message 4 of 15 , Sep 14, 2002
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            --- In APBR_analysis@y..., bchaikin@a... wrote:
            >
            > i knew mcadoo had played in europe, and that he had posted really
            good
            > numbers (considering his age), but had never seen them...thanks....
            >
            > might you know how many games he played each season (i seem
            remember them
            > only played 2 maybe 3 games a week over there)? what country or
            teams he
            > played on? was he considered a big star over there? (maybe if you
            found this


            I am not sure what he star power was. Though my brother actually
            worked in milan for a couple of years (93-97) and Darryl Dawkins was
            considered a decent size star (thought every other sport paled in
            comparison to soccer). As for Mcadoo, here are games played and
            teams in Italy by year:

            86-87 Tracer Milan 38 games
            87-88 Tracer Milan 39 games
            88-89 Phillips Milano 38 games
            89-90 Phillips Milano 33 games
            90-91 Filanto 23 games
            91-92 Filanto 20 games
            92-93 Team system Fabriano 2 games
          • Mike G
            ... superstars ... bird ... Do we really know that Magic or Bird would have made Any Team a contender? Magic joined a playoff team that had Kareem, Nixon,
            Message 5 of 15 , Sep 14, 2002
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              --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "harlanzo" <harlanzo@y...> wrote:
              > ... Mcadoo, to me, is a
              > clear hall of famer. He is not on the level of the super
              superstars
              > who make any team they play on instant title contenders but neither
              > is Karl Malone. (I think the list is limited to wilt, mj, magic,
              bird
              > and a few others).

              Do we really know that Magic or Bird would have made Any Team a
              contender? Magic joined a playoff team that had Kareem, Nixon,
              Cooper, Jim Chones, Jamaal Wilkes, and a decent bench. Bird had
              Cowens, Archibald, Cedric Maxwell in his prime...

              Jordan, of course, did not make the Bulls contenders by himself, even
              in his prime; so right there you have a clear example of how a single
              player Will Not make a contender of a lousy team.

              Kareem's coming to the 2nd-year Bucks would be a better example,
              though he had good support, and Bob Dandridge was the 2nd-best rookie
              that year.

              > Still he is a great feature player. the fact he
              > couldn't win with the late 70s knicks or pistons (and I think
              boston)
              > is really an indictment of his surrounding talent.

              There was some talent, and maybe not good chemistry. In NY, he
              played with (or alongside) Spencer Haywood, Earl Monroe, Lonnie
              Shelton. I don't see a point guard on the team, except Ray Williams.

              Talk about a ball-hogging passer.


              > There was also a comment about Mcadoo's career ending in 86. It
              > should be noted that he played in europe from 86-87 nto 92-93. His
              > stats were as follows:
              >
              > ppg rpg
              > 86-87 26.1 10.2
              > 87-88 28.1 8.5
              > 88-89 22.7 7.9
              > 89-90 25.8 7.5
              > 90-91 33.0 9.5
              > 91-92 26.9 9.4
              > 92-93 22.0 6.5

              If you double Mac's 1986 production in Philly, you get numbers like
              these. So there's a possible 2:1 conversion rate on the NBA dollar.

              He wasn't much of a rebounder when he left the NBA, and in Europe the
              numbers continue to fall.

              > I know european ball was not the highest quality but this is still
              > impressive and indicative that Mcadoo could've played in the NBA
              for
              > few more years.

              This, I doubt. If playing the big minutes was inspiration to him,
              then Europe may have been satisfying. And he did play to age 40 or
              so.

              I'm looking at Mac's shotblocking stats. In his 2nd year, 1974, the
              NBA began recording these, and he had about 3 per 36 min. Next year,
              about 2, and a slow decline to 1.2 before the Lakers found him.

              Then, in 4 Lakers seasons, here's how he did in the regular season,
              and playoffs: (per-36 min)

              yr R-S P-O
              82 1.5 1.9
              83 1.3 1.9
              84 1.1 2.0
              85 1.3 2.1

              I do remember him blocking shots in LA, and in fact all I saw were
              postseason games.

              This seems to be one of those 'hustle' stats. Consistant, too, with
              responding favorably to the increased minutes in the playoffs.

              My conclusion is that McAdoo flourished as the go-to guy, and not
              with sharing the spotlight with Haywood or Cowens or Lanier (or, uh,
              Kent Benson).

              Then as the 'go-to guy off the bench' in LA, he thrived in that role.
            • harlanzo
              ... even in his prime; so right there you have a clear example of how a single player Will Not make a contender of a lousy team. ... rookie ... It is an
              Message 6 of 15 , Sep 14, 2002
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                --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "Mike G" <msg_53@h...> wrote:
                >
                > Do we really know that Magic or Bird would have made Any Team a
                > contender? Magic joined a playoff team that had Kareem, Nixon,
                > Cooper, Jim Chones, Jamaal Wilkes, and a decent bench. Bird had
                > Cowens, Archibald, Cedric Maxwell in his prime...
                > Jordan, of course, did not make the Bulls contenders by himself,
                even in his prime; so right there you have a clear example of how a
                single player Will Not make a contender of a lousy team.
                > Kareem's coming to the 2nd-year Bucks would be a better example,
                > though he had good support, and Bob Dandridge was the 2nd-best
                rookie
                > that year.

                It is an overstatement to say that MJ or these other guys are instant
                title contenders if you put them on the Nuggers or the 92-93
                mavericks. But they would make any team a playoff contender.
                Interestingly enough for Bird his rookie year the team jumped from 29-
                53 to 61-21 with ostensibly the same roster save one change...Bird
                for Mcadoo.
                78-79 79-80
                pg Archibald Archibald
                sg Chris Ford Chris Ford
                sf Mcadoo/Judkins Bird
                pf Maxwell Maxwell
                c Cowens Robey/Cowens

                (granted Mcadoo was acquired midseason but it would seem Bird had
                some impact). This was just the Bird's rookie year. Magic had a
                similar impact (the lakers were better than celts before magic as you
                know). Guys like Hakeem and MJ turned non-playoff teams into playoff
                teams without much talent. So I think there is two tiers of feature
                players, these real impact guys who seem to elevate any level team to
                a higher level and feature guys like Mcadoo, Stackhouse, or Antoine
                who are good and can function in the feature role but won't
                necessarily elevate a team.


                >
                > > Still he is a great feature player. the fact he
                > > couldn't win with the late 70s knicks or pistons (and I think
                > boston)
                > > is really an indictment of his surrounding talent.
                >
                > There was some talent, and maybe not good chemistry. In NY, he
                > played with (or alongside) Spencer Haywood, Earl Monroe, Lonnie
                > Shelton. I don't see a point guard on the team, except Ray
                Williams.
                >
                > Talk about a ball-hogging passer.
                >
                >
                > > There was also a comment about Mcadoo's career ending in 86. It
                > > should be noted that he played in europe from 86-87 nto 92-93.
                His
                > > stats were as follows:
                > >
                > > ppg rpg
                > > 86-87 26.1 10.2
                > > 87-88 28.1 8.5
                > > 88-89 22.7 7.9
                > > 89-90 25.8 7.5
                > > 90-91 33.0 9.5
                > > 91-92 26.9 9.4
                > > 92-93 22.0 6.5
                >
                > If you double Mac's 1986 production in Philly, you get numbers like
                > these. So there's a possible 2:1 conversion rate on the NBA dollar.
                >
                > He wasn't much of a rebounder when he left the NBA, and in Europe
                the
                > numbers continue to fall.
                >
                > > I know european ball was not the highest quality but this is
                still
                > > impressive and indicative that Mcadoo could've played in the NBA
                > for
                > > few more years.
                >
                > This, I doubt. If playing the big minutes was inspiration to him,
                > then Europe may have been satisfying. And he did play to age 40 or
                > so.
                >
                > I'm looking at Mac's shotblocking stats. In his 2nd year, 1974,
                the
                > NBA began recording these, and he had about 3 per 36 min. Next
                year,
                > about 2, and a slow decline to 1.2 before the Lakers found him.
                >
                > Then, in 4 Lakers seasons, here's how he did in the regular season,
                > and playoffs: (per-36 min)
                >
                > yr R-S P-O
                > 82 1.5 1.9
                > 83 1.3 1.9
                > 84 1.1 2.0
                > 85 1.3 2.1
                >
                > I do remember him blocking shots in LA, and in fact all I saw were
                > postseason games.
                >
                > This seems to be one of those 'hustle' stats. Consistant, too,
                with
                > responding favorably to the increased minutes in the playoffs.
                >
                > My conclusion is that McAdoo flourished as the go-to guy, and not
                > with sharing the spotlight with Haywood or Cowens or Lanier (or,
                uh,
                > Kent Benson).
                >
                > Then as the 'go-to guy off the bench' in LA, he thrived in that
                role.
              • harlanzo
                ... even in his prime; so right there you have a clear example of how a single player Will Not make a contender of a lousy team. ... rookie ... It is an
                Message 7 of 15 , Sep 14, 2002
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                  --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "Mike G" <msg_53@h...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Do we really know that Magic or Bird would have made Any Team a
                  > contender? Magic joined a playoff team that had Kareem, Nixon,
                  > Cooper, Jim Chones, Jamaal Wilkes, and a decent bench. Bird had
                  > Cowens, Archibald, Cedric Maxwell in his prime...
                  > Jordan, of course, did not make the Bulls contenders by himself,
                  even in his prime; so right there you have a clear example of how a
                  single player Will Not make a contender of a lousy team.
                  > Kareem's coming to the 2nd-year Bucks would be a better example,
                  > though he had good support, and Bob Dandridge was the 2nd-best
                  rookie
                  > that year.

                  It is an overstatement to say that MJ or these other guys are instant
                  title contenders if you put them on the Nuggers or the 92-93
                  mavericks. But they would make any team a playoff contender.
                  Interestingly enough for Bird his rookie year the team jumped from 29-
                  53 to 61-21 with ostensibly the same roster save one change...Bird
                  for Mcadoo.
                  78-79 79-80
                  pg Archibald Archibald
                  sg Chris Ford Chris Ford
                  sf Mcadoo/Judkins Bird
                  pf Maxwell Maxwell
                  c Cowens Robey/Cowens

                  (granted Mcadoo was acquired midseason but it would seem Bird had
                  some impact). This was just the Bird's rookie year. Magic had a
                  similar impact (the lakers were better than celts before magic as you
                  know). Guys like Hakeem and MJ turned non-playoff teams into playoff
                  teams without much talent. So I think there is two tiers of feature
                  players, these real impact guys who seem to elevate any level team to
                  a higher level and feature guys like Mcadoo, Stackhouse, or Antoine
                  who are good and can function in the feature role but won't
                  necessarily elevate a team.


                  >
                  > > Still he is a great feature player. the fact he
                  > > couldn't win with the late 70s knicks or pistons (and I think
                  > boston)
                  > > is really an indictment of his surrounding talent.
                  >
                  > There was some talent, and maybe not good chemistry. In NY, he
                  > played with (or alongside) Spencer Haywood, Earl Monroe, Lonnie
                  > Shelton. I don't see a point guard on the team, except Ray
                  Williams.
                  >
                  > Talk about a ball-hogging passer.
                  >
                  >
                  > > There was also a comment about Mcadoo's career ending in 86. It
                  > > should be noted that he played in europe from 86-87 nto 92-93.
                  His
                  > > stats were as follows:
                  > >
                  > > ppg rpg
                  > > 86-87 26.1 10.2
                  > > 87-88 28.1 8.5
                  > > 88-89 22.7 7.9
                  > > 89-90 25.8 7.5
                  > > 90-91 33.0 9.5
                  > > 91-92 26.9 9.4
                  > > 92-93 22.0 6.5
                  >
                  > If you double Mac's 1986 production in Philly, you get numbers like
                  > these. So there's a possible 2:1 conversion rate on the NBA dollar.
                  >
                  > He wasn't much of a rebounder when he left the NBA, and in Europe
                  the
                  > numbers continue to fall.
                  >
                  > > I know european ball was not the highest quality but this is
                  still
                  > > impressive and indicative that Mcadoo could've played in the NBA
                  > for
                  > > few more years.
                  >
                  > This, I doubt. If playing the big minutes was inspiration to him,
                  > then Europe may have been satisfying. And he did play to age 40 or
                  > so.
                  >
                  > I'm looking at Mac's shotblocking stats. In his 2nd year, 1974,
                  the
                  > NBA began recording these, and he had about 3 per 36 min. Next
                  year,
                  > about 2, and a slow decline to 1.2 before the Lakers found him.
                  >
                  > Then, in 4 Lakers seasons, here's how he did in the regular season,
                  > and playoffs: (per-36 min)
                  >
                  > yr R-S P-O
                  > 82 1.5 1.9
                  > 83 1.3 1.9
                  > 84 1.1 2.0
                  > 85 1.3 2.1
                  >
                  > I do remember him blocking shots in LA, and in fact all I saw were
                  > postseason games.
                  >
                  > This seems to be one of those 'hustle' stats. Consistant, too,
                  with
                  > responding favorably to the increased minutes in the playoffs.
                  >
                  > My conclusion is that McAdoo flourished as the go-to guy, and not
                  > with sharing the spotlight with Haywood or Cowens or Lanier (or,
                  uh,
                  > Kent Benson).
                  >
                  > Then as the 'go-to guy off the bench' in LA, he thrived in that
                  role.
                • nik
                  ... McAdoo was certainly considered a big star in Europe at the time and his name is still legendary. Dawkins was a star too, but nothing like McAdoo. First of
                  Message 8 of 15 , Sep 17, 2002
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                    > > i knew mcadoo had played in europe, and that he
                    > had posted really
                    > good
                    > > numbers (considering his age), but had never seen
                    > them...thanks....
                    > >
                    > > might you know how many games he played each
                    > season (i seem
                    > remember them
                    > > only played 2 maybe 3 games a week over there)?
                    > what country or
                    > teams he
                    > > played on? was he considered a big star over
                    > there? (maybe if you
                    > found this

                    McAdoo was certainly considered a big star in Europe
                    at the time and his name is still legendary.
                    Dawkins was a star too, but nothing like McAdoo.
                    First of all, he played in the most competitive
                    and strong European Championship at the time,
                    in Italy.

                    In his first year he averaged a double-double
                    (26p. 10r.) but the thing is that he didn't just
                    put up some good numbers, he als led his team into
                    winning the Italian and the European championship.
                    He participated in at least one more European
                    Final Four.
                    He remained very productive for the next 2 years
                    playing for Tracer Milan, one of the top teams
                    in Europe.

                    His team participated in the 1987 and 1989
                    McDonald's Tournament and he set some scoring
                    records (against NBA teams and Europe's best)
                    that remain unbeaten:
                    - Most points in a game (44, 41, 37)
                    - Highest scoring average (40, 39)

                    He was of course a member of the all-tournament's
                    team both times (and lost the MVP simply cause
                    the NBA teams always won in the finals).

                    In 1989 he was 38 years old!
                    And he kept playing (and scoring) till he was 41...
                    although his last year(s?) was in Italy's 2nd
                    division.

                    __________________________________________________
                    Do you Yahoo!?
                    Yahoo! News - Today's headlines
                    http://news.yahoo.com
                  • maurizio lombardo
                    I m italian. i saw many games of bob mcadoo in italy (four or five against the team of my hometown in wich played the great Darryl Dawkins...). In italy mcadoo
                    Message 9 of 15 , Sep 18, 2002
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                      I'm italian. i saw many games of bob mcadoo in italy
                      (four or five against the team of my hometown in wich
                      played the great Darryl Dawkins...). In italy mcadoo
                      was a great player and i remember a great steal in
                      playoffs final in the last minutes. Naturally his team
                      won that game...I've attached at this e-mail an excel
                      file with the statistics of bob mcadoo in italy (only
                      italian league).

                      by Maurizio Lombardo

                      ______________________________________________________________________
                      Mio Yahoo!: personalizza Yahoo! come piace a te
                      http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.my.yahoo.com/
                    • bchaikin@aol.com
                      wow!...thanks for the stats...it looks like mcadoo s 2pt FG% was really high, in the 58%-60% range...were those very high numbers for 2pt FG% for the league
                      Message 10 of 15 , Sep 18, 2002
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                        wow!...thanks for the stats...it looks like mcadoo's 2pt FG% was really high, in the 58%-60% range...were those very high numbers for 2pt FG% for the league overall, or were there other high scorers with a similar FG%?...
                      • maurizio lombardo
                        many players had high numbers in italian league: darryl dawkins had, during his five years, 1392 fgm and 1701 fga from 2pts!!!! 81,8%...), kevin magee (old
                        Message 11 of 15 , Sep 18, 2002
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                          many players had high numbers in italian league:
                          darryl dawkins had, during his five years, 1392 fgm
                          and 1701 fga from 2pts!!!! 81,8%...), kevin magee (old
                          University of California-Irvine player) had in 1991-92
                          season made 231-263 from 2 pts, Artis Gilmore in his
                          last season like player (88-89) made 166-270 from 2
                          pts.

                          maurizio lombardo

                          --- bchaikin@... ha scritto: >
                          > wow!...thanks for the stats...it looks like mcadoo's
                          > 2pt FG% was really high,
                          > in the 58%-60% range...were those very high numbers
                          > for 2pt FG% for the
                          > league overall, or were there other high scorers
                          > with a similar FG%?...
                          >

                          ______________________________________________________________________
                          Mio Yahoo!: personalizza Yahoo! come piace a te
                          http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.my.yahoo.com/
                        • harlanzo
                          is there a database that has old european basketball stats? I know Eurobasket.com has it for recent players but I didn t know for before the late 90s.
                          Message 12 of 15 , Sep 18, 2002
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                            is there a database that has old european basketball stats? I know
                            Eurobasket.com has it for recent players but I didn't know for before
                            the late 90s.


                            --- In APBR_analysis@y..., maurizio lombardo <aclomb@y...> wrote:
                            > many players had high numbers in italian league:
                            > darryl dawkins had, during his five years, 1392 fgm
                            > and 1701 fga from 2pts!!!! 81,8%...), kevin magee (old
                            > University of California-Irvine player) had in 1991-92
                            > season made 231-263 from 2 pts, Artis Gilmore in his
                            > last season like player (88-89) made 166-270 from 2
                            > pts.
                            >
                            > maurizio lombardo
                            >
                            > --- bchaikin@a... ha scritto: >
                            > > wow!...thanks for the stats...it looks like mcadoo's
                            > > 2pt FG% was really high,
                            > > in the 58%-60% range...were those very high numbers
                            > > for 2pt FG% for the
                            > > league overall, or were there other high scorers
                            > > with a similar FG%?...
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            ______________________________________________________________________
                            > Mio Yahoo!: personalizza Yahoo! come piace a te
                            > http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.my.yahoo.com/
                          • maurizio lombardo
                            i know only the database of italian league. This has the season after 86-87. The site was at the address www.legabasket.it. For the seasons before 87-88, i
                            Message 13 of 15 , Sep 19, 2002
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                              i know only the database of italian league. This has
                              the season after 86-87. The site was at the address
                              www.legabasket.it. For the seasons before 87-88, i
                              have many statistics...but on the paper...if you are
                              interesting about a particular player , you can write
                              me and i can see....

                              maurizio lombardo


                              <tt>
                              is there a database that has old european basketball
                              stats?  I know <BR>
                              Eurobasket.com has it for recent players but I didn't
                              know for before <BR>
                              the late 90s.<BR>
                              <BR>
                              <BR>
                              --- In APBR_analysis@y..., maurizio lombardo
                              <aclomb@y...> wrote:<BR>
                              > many players had high numbers in italian
                              league:<BR>
                              > darryl dawkins had, during his five years, 1392
                              fgm<BR>
                              > and 1701 fga from 2pts!!!! 81,8%...), kevin magee
                              (old<BR>
                              > University of California-Irvine player) had in
                              1991-92<BR>
                              > season made 231-263 from 2 pts, Artis Gilmore in
                              his<BR>
                              > last season like player (88-89) made 166-270 from
                              2<BR>
                              > pts.<BR>
                              > <BR>
                              > maurizio lombardo<BR>
                              > <BR>
                              > --- bchaikin@a... ha scritto: > <BR>
                              > > wow!...thanks for the stats...it looks like
                              mcadoo's<BR>
                              > > 2pt FG% was really high, <BR>
                              > > in the 58%-60% range...were those very high
                              numbers<BR>
                              > > for 2pt FG% for the <BR>
                              > > league overall, or were there other high
                              scorers<BR>
                              > > with a similar FG%?...<BR>
                              > >  <BR>
                              > <BR>
                              > <BR>
                              ______________________________________________________________________<BR>
                              > Mio Yahoo!: personalizza Yahoo! come piace a te
                              <BR>
                              > <a
                              href="http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.my.yahoo.com/">http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.my.yahoo.com/</a><BR>
                              <BR>
                              </tt>

                              <br>

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                            • Dean Oliver
                              ... instant ... This gets at the question I still struggle with: How many wins can a player create for his team? The Win Shares thing said up to 27 wins (for
                              Message 14 of 15 , Sep 19, 2002
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "harlanzo" <harlanzo@y...> wrote:
                                >
                                > It is an overstatement to say that MJ or these other guys are
                                instant
                                > title contenders if you put them on the Nuggers or the 92-93
                                > mavericks. But they would make any team a playoff contender.

                                This gets at the question I still struggle with: How many wins can a
                                player create for his team? The Win Shares thing said up to 27 wins
                                (for Shaq, I think) -- that is 1/3rd of a team's game total, yet Shaq
                                didn't play in even 1/5th of his team minutes and scored about 1/4th
                                of his team points. I estimated he contributed about 19 wins and 1
                                loss, which is a far cry from 27 wins (and ?? losses).

                                The point about Bird getting the Celtics to the playoffs in his
                                rookie year is a good one. Archibald's improvement in 1980 was
                                remarkable. Maybe it was the Bird factor, but Tiny was also coming
                                off a year away in '79 after a horrible achilles injury, so he was
                                down then. I believe Fitch got COY that year, too. One of these
                                days, I'll have to look into all the reasons for that turnaround. I
                                know the 3ptr helped Chris Ford. The D and the O improved a lot. I
                                can't believe that it was all Bird, though he clearly was a major
                                factor.

                                > Interestingly enough for Bird his rookie year the team jumped from
                                29-
                                > 53 to 61-21 with ostensibly the same roster save one change...Bird
                                > for Mcadoo.
                                > 78-79 79-80
                                > pg Archibald Archibald
                                > sg Chris Ford Chris Ford
                                > sf Mcadoo/Judkins Bird
                                > pf Maxwell Maxwell
                                > c Cowens Robey/Cowens
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