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Re: Ballhogs ('Nique's postseasons)

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  • Mike G
    Here are Dominique Wilkins and teammates numbers in years they got out of the first round. Adding assist rate to this list. 1986 (9 games) player -- pct.
    Message 1 of 15 , Sep 12, 2002
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      Here are Dominique Wilkins' and teammates' numbers in years they got
      out of the first round. Adding assist rate to this list.

      1986 (9 games)
      player -- pct. sco. ast.
      Wilkins - .501 22.7 2.4
      Wittman - .541 15.6 2.9
      Willis -- .571 15.2 0.6
      Rivers -- .504 12.9 9.3
      Rollins - .562 `7.7 0.4

      1987 (8 G)
      Wilkins - .488 23.7 2.6
      Willis -- .540 15.5 0.6
      Wittman - .571 19.6 3.6
      Rivers -- .425 `7.3 13.1
      Rollins - .571 `6.6 0.5

      At least Rivers knows to pass, when he isn't hitting.

      1988 (12 G)
      Wilkins -- .525 29.1 2.7
      Rivers --- .515 15.2 10.1
      Wittman -- .495 10.8 4.2
      Willis --- .538 14.2 0.4
      Levingston .596 14.2 1.1

      Gee, I guess that's it. Then 3 years of 1st-round exits, and 2 with
      no playoffs. So Nique's best years weren't great years for the Hawks.

      It does look like Nique rather shot his team out of the playoffs some
      years. Their EC Finals appearance in 1988 was their peak, and I
      don't think it was anything but a great performance by D. Wilkins.
      (Culminating in classic shootout with Larry Bird).
    • Michael K. Tamada
      On Thu, 12 Sep 2002, Mike G wrote: [...] ... [...] ... Two seasons where Wilkins had the LOWEST shooting percentage, and HIGHEST points scored (and ipso facto
      Message 2 of 15 , Sep 12, 2002
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        On Thu, 12 Sep 2002, Mike G wrote:

        [...]

        > 1985
        > Nique --- .506 24.4

        [...]

        > 1989
        > Nique --- .520 24.4

        Two seasons where Wilkins had the LOWEST shooting percentage, and HIGHEST
        points scored (and ipso facto highest shot attempts) of the top 5
        teammates. That might be getting close to the definition of a ballhog
        right there.

        > 1993
        > Nique --- .559 29.3

        > In this 4-year interval, Nique's shooting pct rose steadily, while
        > his scoring help faded. (Following year, traded for Manning).
        >
        > By one definition, the player with the best scoring efficiency should
        > really shoot more (not less), and thus cannot be considered a ballhog.
        >
        > So Dominique Wilkins evolved from being truly a hog, to somewhat of a
        > hog, to being just a great offensive player.

        Yes. I hadn't realized that there'd been that improvement in Wilkins'
        numbers, thanks. Although those earlier career numbers make him appear
        even worse of a gunner than I'd been thinking.

        > Another possible consideration is Wilkins' very-bad playoff rating.
        > If reputations are earned in the postseason, perhaps I should be
        > looking there.

        Those were also interesting and confirmatory of our ballhog memories of
        'Nique.



        --MKT
      • john wallace craven
        ... One small point in defense of Nique: Theoretically, a low-percentage shooter can take the most shots on his team and still be helpful to them. Think of
        Message 3 of 15 , Sep 12, 2002
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          On Thu, 12 Sep 2002, Michael K. Tamada wrote:

          >
          >
          > On Thu, 12 Sep 2002, Mike G wrote:
          >
          > [...]
          >
          > > 1985
          > > Nique --- .506 24.4
          >
          > [...]
          >
          > > 1989
          > > Nique --- .520 24.4
          >
          > Two seasons where Wilkins had the LOWEST shooting percentage, and HIGHEST
          > points scored (and ipso facto highest shot attempts) of the top 5
          > teammates. That might be getting close to the definition of a ballhog
          > right there.

          One small point in defense of 'Nique: Theoretically, a low-percentage
          shooter can take the most shots on his team and still be helpful to them.
          Think of Iverson on the 76ers a couple years ago. They had nobody on the
          team who could be counted on to create their own shot with 4 seconds left
          on the shot clock other than Allen; the fact that he took all those shots
          does not necessarily make him a ballhog (of course, they don't make him
          _not_ a ballhog either). Reggie Miller is another guy who might make a
          list like this unfairly because he as well is counted on to put something
          up when the clock is running down for his team.

          That being said, 'Nique had guys like Kevin Willis with him in his prime
          who could find ways to get shots off, and he _still_ refused to give the
          ball up more often than not.

          >
          > > 1993
          > > Nique --- .559 29.3
          >
          > > In this 4-year interval, Nique's shooting pct rose steadily, while
          > > his scoring help faded. (Following year, traded for Manning).
          > >
          > > By one definition, the player with the best scoring efficiency should
          > > really shoot more (not less), and thus cannot be considered a ballhog.
          > >
          > > So Dominique Wilkins evolved from being truly a hog, to somewhat of a
          > > hog, to being just a great offensive player.
          >
          > Yes. I hadn't realized that there'd been that improvement in Wilkins'
          > numbers, thanks. Although those earlier career numbers make him appear
          > even worse of a gunner than I'd been thinking.
          >
          > > Another possible consideration is Wilkins' very-bad playoff rating.
          > > If reputations are earned in the postseason, perhaps I should be
          > > looking there.
          >
          > Those were also interesting and confirmatory of our ballhog memories of
          > 'Nique.
          >
          >
          >
          > --MKT
          >
          >
          >
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        • harlanzo
          ... percentage ... them. ... True, does anyone have any sort of stastical data breaking donw a player s shooting % based on distance? (ie from the inside the
          Message 4 of 15 , Sep 12, 2002
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            --- In APBR_analysis@y..., john wallace craven <john1974@u...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >>
            > One small point in defense of 'Nique: Theoretically, a low-
            percentage
            > shooter can take the most shots on his team and still be helpful to
            them.
            > Think of Iverson on the 76ers a couple years ago.


            True, does anyone have any sort of stastical data breaking donw a
            player's shooting % based on distance? (ie from the inside the paint
            from 15-20 ft, and then 3 point shots). This might give insight into
            whether the % nique or Stackhouse shot is acceptable or truly
            chucking. With Iverson I'd venture that his 40% from 18-25 feet on
            his 25 shots a game would come up better than giving half his shots
            to the likes of george lynch and ty hill from 12-18 feet.
          • John Hollinger
            A few more hogs, or guys with hog reps, to look at: --World B. Free --Chuck Person --Tom Chambers --Lamond Murray --Trevor Ruffin - an obscure player, but I
            Message 5 of 15 , Sep 12, 2002
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              A few more hogs, or guys with hog reps, to look at:

              --World B. Free
              --Chuck Person
              --Tom Chambers
              --Lamond Murray
              --Trevor Ruffin - an obscure player, but I suspect he will blow
              nearly everybody else off the charts

              Somebody mentioned Reggie Miller before, but he's the anti-hog. He
              get as many points from as few shots as anyone who has played the
              game.
            • Michael K. Tamada
              ... Has anyone mentioned Freeman Williams yet? My guess is he d make World B Free look shy. ... I think he was mentioned in the Alan Iverson context, as the
              Message 6 of 15 , Sep 12, 2002
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                On Fri, 13 Sep 2002, John Hollinger wrote:

                > A few more hogs, or guys with hog reps, to look at:
                >
                > --World B. Free
                > --Chuck Person
                > --Tom Chambers
                > --Lamond Murray
                > --Trevor Ruffin - an obscure player, but I suspect he will blow
                > nearly everybody else off the charts

                Has anyone mentioned Freeman Williams yet? My guess is he'd make World B
                Free look shy.

                > Somebody mentioned Reggie Miller before, but he's the anti-hog. He
                > get as many points from as few shots as anyone who has played the
                > game.

                I think he was mentioned in the Alan Iverson context, as the "necessary
                ball-dominator" as opposed to "ball hog" -- i.e. he had to be the guy who
                shot a lot, including bad shots, because no one else on his team could be
                relied upon to make the offense go.

                Two differences between Miller and Iverson though: Miller must surely
                have vastly better shooting percentage and efficiency stats than Iverson
                (which is what you allude to above); and Miller often had better-scoring
                teammates (Smits, Person, etc.) than Iverson.

                And of course Iverson shoots and scores more than Miller does. But as
                John Craven pointed out, Iverson can be considered to be a "necessary ball
                dominator" -- the 76ers go nowhere unless they put the ball in his hands
                and have him shoot.

                Miller on the other hand never dominated the Pacers' offense the way
                Iverson does the 76ers'. He didn't have Iverson's ball-hoggedly low FG%,
                but he also didn't have to be the guy shooting 30 times a game.


                --MKT
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