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Re: Ballhogs

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  • harlanzo
    The best definition of ballhog seems like it should be the guy who wants to determine the outcome of the possession. This of course varies by position. A
    Message 1 of 15 , Sep 11, 2002
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      The best definition of ballhog seems like it should be the guy who
      wants to determine the outcome of the possession. This of course
      varies by position. A center is expected to be a ballhog if he can
      score whereas a guard really should not shoot everytime he touches
      the ball and seems open. I wonder if ratio of shot attempts to
      assists would reveal a "hogness." Probably not because I think most
      ball dominating hogs tend to get a decent amount of assists. Here is
      a radom sampling of some hogs and players with "team first" reps and
      how they compare in shots to assits ratio:


      Hogs
      PPG FGM/FGA ASSTS shots/assists ratio
      Damon Stoudamire 95-96 19.0 481/1129 653 1.72/1
      Reggie Theus 82-83 23.8 749/1567 484 3.24/1
      Antoine Walker 01-02 22.1 661/1689 407 4.15/1
      Dominique Wilkins 90-91 25.9 770/1640 265 6.19/1
      Allen Iverson 00-01 31.1 762/1813 325 5.58/1
      Patrick Ewing 90-91 26.6 845/1645 244 6.74/1
      Stephon Marbury 00-01 23.9 563/1277 506 2.52/1
      George Gervin 80-81 27.1 850/1729 260 6.65/1
      Rex Chapman 89-90 17.5 377/924 132 7.00/1
      Armen Gilliam 91-92 16.9 512/1001 118 8.48/1
      Chuck Person 89-90 19.7 605/1242 230 5.40/1
      Rick Barry 72-73 25.1 737/1630 399 4.09/1
      Wilt Chamberlain 61-62 50.4 1597/3159 192 16.45/1

      Team Guys

      Maurice Cheeks 84-85 13.1 422/741 497 1.49/1
      Jason Kidd 01-02 14.7 445/1138 808 1.41/1
      Magic Johnson 89-90 22.3 546/1138 907 1.25/1
      John Stockton 96-97 14.4 416/759 860 0.88/1
      Jeff Hornacek 93-94 15.9 472/1004 419 2.13/1
      Joe Dumars 91-92 19.9 587/1311 375 3.50/1
      Scottie Pippen 95-96 19.4 563/1216 452 2.69/1
      Michael Jordan 95-96 30.4 916/1850 352 5.26/1
      Arvydas Sabonis 96-97 13.4 328/658 146 4.51/1
      Bill Walton 76-77 18.6 491/930 245 3.80/1
      Wilt Chamberlain 66-67 24.1 785/1150 630 1.83/1
      Bill Bradley 69-70 14.5 413/897 268 3.35/1
    • Michael K. Tamada
      ... Taking into account the differences by position is important, I think. [...] ... [...] ... Marbury and Stoudamire, and one might add Payton to this list,
      Message 2 of 15 , Sep 11, 2002
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        On Thu, 12 Sep 2002, harlanzo wrote:

        > wants to determine the outcome of the possession. This of course
        > varies by position. A center is expected to be a ballhog if he can

        Taking into account the differences by position is important, I think.

        [...]

        > Hogs
        > PPG FGM/FGA ASSTS shots/assists ratio
        > Damon Stoudamire 95-96 19.0 481/1129 653 1.72/1
        > Reggie Theus 82-83 23.8 749/1567 484 3.24/1
        [...]
        > Stephon Marbury 00-01 23.9 563/1277 506 2.52/1

        Marbury and Stoudamire, and one might add Payton to this list, are
        good examples of guys who get plenty of assists but could also
        be called ballhogs. We can see however that their shots:assists
        ratios are not up there with the other ballhogs. PG ballhogs are
        going to look different from the other ballhogs.

        I'd forgotten about Theus, that's a good call. Sort of an early Kobe:
        highly talented, all-around offensive ability, but aggravated his coaches
        no end with his decision-making.


        --MKT
      • Mike G
        ... per ... This might be key to the definition. Was Dominique taking the most shots, despite having one of the lower shooting pcts on his team? Maybe :
        Message 3 of 15 , Sep 12, 2002
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          --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "Dean Oliver" <deano@r...> wrote:
          >D. Wilkins doesn't make my statistical cut, at least not at
          > his prime. The guy was just too good (producing about 115 points
          per
          > 100 possessions). Like Jordan, he didn't turn the ball over much,
          > though he shot a lot. He didn't even use as many possessions as
          > Jordan (only 33% at his peak, which was pretty average for MJ).
          > Maybe the thought was that Jordan didn't have as much talent around
          > him as Wilkins.
          >

          This might be key to the definition. Was Dominique taking the most
          shots, despite having one of the lower shooting pcts on his team?
          Maybe :

          Listing Hawks' top 5 minutes guys, overall shooting pct, scoring rate:

          1985
          Nique --- .506 24.4
          E Johnson .536 17.1
          Rivers -- .547 15.7
          Wittman - .545 11.6
          Levingston.548 12.0

          Here is a year when Nique had assumed leadership of the team, and
          could certainly have been thinking of setting up his teammates more.

          1989
          Nique --- .520 24.4
          Moses --- .564 21.2
          Rivers -- .538 14.6
          Theus --- .525 17.2
          Levingston.553 11.5

          While the intervening years weren't so one-sided, the pattern
          continued.

          1993
          Nique --- .559 29.3
          Willis -- .524 17.0
          Blaylock- .510 12.5
          Augmon -- .540 16.0
          Koncak -- .471 `3.9

          In this 4-year interval, Nique's shooting pct rose steadily, while
          his scoring help faded. (Following year, traded for Manning).

          By one definition, the player with the best scoring efficiency should
          really shoot more (not less), and thus cannot be considered a ballhog.

          So Dominique Wilkins evolved from being truly a hog, to somewhat of a
          hog, to being just a great offensive player.

          Another possible consideration is Wilkins' very-bad playoff rating.
          If reputations are earned in the postseason, perhaps I should be
          looking there.


          > > the guy
          > nicknamed "The
          > > Black Hole"?
          >
          > I heard that about Kevin McHale and one other frontcourt player who
          > I'm forgetting.

          Black Hole was Elvin Hayes, I think.

          McHale would be another 'too good to be a ballhog'.
        • Mike G
          Here are Dominique Wilkins and teammates numbers in years they got out of the first round. Adding assist rate to this list. 1986 (9 games) player -- pct.
          Message 4 of 15 , Sep 12, 2002
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            Here are Dominique Wilkins' and teammates' numbers in years they got
            out of the first round. Adding assist rate to this list.

            1986 (9 games)
            player -- pct. sco. ast.
            Wilkins - .501 22.7 2.4
            Wittman - .541 15.6 2.9
            Willis -- .571 15.2 0.6
            Rivers -- .504 12.9 9.3
            Rollins - .562 `7.7 0.4

            1987 (8 G)
            Wilkins - .488 23.7 2.6
            Willis -- .540 15.5 0.6
            Wittman - .571 19.6 3.6
            Rivers -- .425 `7.3 13.1
            Rollins - .571 `6.6 0.5

            At least Rivers knows to pass, when he isn't hitting.

            1988 (12 G)
            Wilkins -- .525 29.1 2.7
            Rivers --- .515 15.2 10.1
            Wittman -- .495 10.8 4.2
            Willis --- .538 14.2 0.4
            Levingston .596 14.2 1.1

            Gee, I guess that's it. Then 3 years of 1st-round exits, and 2 with
            no playoffs. So Nique's best years weren't great years for the Hawks.

            It does look like Nique rather shot his team out of the playoffs some
            years. Their EC Finals appearance in 1988 was their peak, and I
            don't think it was anything but a great performance by D. Wilkins.
            (Culminating in classic shootout with Larry Bird).
          • Michael K. Tamada
            On Thu, 12 Sep 2002, Mike G wrote: [...] ... [...] ... Two seasons where Wilkins had the LOWEST shooting percentage, and HIGHEST points scored (and ipso facto
            Message 5 of 15 , Sep 12, 2002
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              On Thu, 12 Sep 2002, Mike G wrote:

              [...]

              > 1985
              > Nique --- .506 24.4

              [...]

              > 1989
              > Nique --- .520 24.4

              Two seasons where Wilkins had the LOWEST shooting percentage, and HIGHEST
              points scored (and ipso facto highest shot attempts) of the top 5
              teammates. That might be getting close to the definition of a ballhog
              right there.

              > 1993
              > Nique --- .559 29.3

              > In this 4-year interval, Nique's shooting pct rose steadily, while
              > his scoring help faded. (Following year, traded for Manning).
              >
              > By one definition, the player with the best scoring efficiency should
              > really shoot more (not less), and thus cannot be considered a ballhog.
              >
              > So Dominique Wilkins evolved from being truly a hog, to somewhat of a
              > hog, to being just a great offensive player.

              Yes. I hadn't realized that there'd been that improvement in Wilkins'
              numbers, thanks. Although those earlier career numbers make him appear
              even worse of a gunner than I'd been thinking.

              > Another possible consideration is Wilkins' very-bad playoff rating.
              > If reputations are earned in the postseason, perhaps I should be
              > looking there.

              Those were also interesting and confirmatory of our ballhog memories of
              'Nique.



              --MKT
            • john wallace craven
              ... One small point in defense of Nique: Theoretically, a low-percentage shooter can take the most shots on his team and still be helpful to them. Think of
              Message 6 of 15 , Sep 12, 2002
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                On Thu, 12 Sep 2002, Michael K. Tamada wrote:

                >
                >
                > On Thu, 12 Sep 2002, Mike G wrote:
                >
                > [...]
                >
                > > 1985
                > > Nique --- .506 24.4
                >
                > [...]
                >
                > > 1989
                > > Nique --- .520 24.4
                >
                > Two seasons where Wilkins had the LOWEST shooting percentage, and HIGHEST
                > points scored (and ipso facto highest shot attempts) of the top 5
                > teammates. That might be getting close to the definition of a ballhog
                > right there.

                One small point in defense of 'Nique: Theoretically, a low-percentage
                shooter can take the most shots on his team and still be helpful to them.
                Think of Iverson on the 76ers a couple years ago. They had nobody on the
                team who could be counted on to create their own shot with 4 seconds left
                on the shot clock other than Allen; the fact that he took all those shots
                does not necessarily make him a ballhog (of course, they don't make him
                _not_ a ballhog either). Reggie Miller is another guy who might make a
                list like this unfairly because he as well is counted on to put something
                up when the clock is running down for his team.

                That being said, 'Nique had guys like Kevin Willis with him in his prime
                who could find ways to get shots off, and he _still_ refused to give the
                ball up more often than not.

                >
                > > 1993
                > > Nique --- .559 29.3
                >
                > > In this 4-year interval, Nique's shooting pct rose steadily, while
                > > his scoring help faded. (Following year, traded for Manning).
                > >
                > > By one definition, the player with the best scoring efficiency should
                > > really shoot more (not less), and thus cannot be considered a ballhog.
                > >
                > > So Dominique Wilkins evolved from being truly a hog, to somewhat of a
                > > hog, to being just a great offensive player.
                >
                > Yes. I hadn't realized that there'd been that improvement in Wilkins'
                > numbers, thanks. Although those earlier career numbers make him appear
                > even worse of a gunner than I'd been thinking.
                >
                > > Another possible consideration is Wilkins' very-bad playoff rating.
                > > If reputations are earned in the postseason, perhaps I should be
                > > looking there.
                >
                > Those were also interesting and confirmatory of our ballhog memories of
                > 'Nique.
                >
                >
                >
                > --MKT
                >
                >
                >
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              • harlanzo
                ... percentage ... them. ... True, does anyone have any sort of stastical data breaking donw a player s shooting % based on distance? (ie from the inside the
                Message 7 of 15 , Sep 12, 2002
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                  --- In APBR_analysis@y..., john wallace craven <john1974@u...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >>
                  > One small point in defense of 'Nique: Theoretically, a low-
                  percentage
                  > shooter can take the most shots on his team and still be helpful to
                  them.
                  > Think of Iverson on the 76ers a couple years ago.


                  True, does anyone have any sort of stastical data breaking donw a
                  player's shooting % based on distance? (ie from the inside the paint
                  from 15-20 ft, and then 3 point shots). This might give insight into
                  whether the % nique or Stackhouse shot is acceptable or truly
                  chucking. With Iverson I'd venture that his 40% from 18-25 feet on
                  his 25 shots a game would come up better than giving half his shots
                  to the likes of george lynch and ty hill from 12-18 feet.
                • John Hollinger
                  A few more hogs, or guys with hog reps, to look at: --World B. Free --Chuck Person --Tom Chambers --Lamond Murray --Trevor Ruffin - an obscure player, but I
                  Message 8 of 15 , Sep 12, 2002
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                    A few more hogs, or guys with hog reps, to look at:

                    --World B. Free
                    --Chuck Person
                    --Tom Chambers
                    --Lamond Murray
                    --Trevor Ruffin - an obscure player, but I suspect he will blow
                    nearly everybody else off the charts

                    Somebody mentioned Reggie Miller before, but he's the anti-hog. He
                    get as many points from as few shots as anyone who has played the
                    game.
                  • Michael K. Tamada
                    ... Has anyone mentioned Freeman Williams yet? My guess is he d make World B Free look shy. ... I think he was mentioned in the Alan Iverson context, as the
                    Message 9 of 15 , Sep 12, 2002
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                      On Fri, 13 Sep 2002, John Hollinger wrote:

                      > A few more hogs, or guys with hog reps, to look at:
                      >
                      > --World B. Free
                      > --Chuck Person
                      > --Tom Chambers
                      > --Lamond Murray
                      > --Trevor Ruffin - an obscure player, but I suspect he will blow
                      > nearly everybody else off the charts

                      Has anyone mentioned Freeman Williams yet? My guess is he'd make World B
                      Free look shy.

                      > Somebody mentioned Reggie Miller before, but he's the anti-hog. He
                      > get as many points from as few shots as anyone who has played the
                      > game.

                      I think he was mentioned in the Alan Iverson context, as the "necessary
                      ball-dominator" as opposed to "ball hog" -- i.e. he had to be the guy who
                      shot a lot, including bad shots, because no one else on his team could be
                      relied upon to make the offense go.

                      Two differences between Miller and Iverson though: Miller must surely
                      have vastly better shooting percentage and efficiency stats than Iverson
                      (which is what you allude to above); and Miller often had better-scoring
                      teammates (Smits, Person, etc.) than Iverson.

                      And of course Iverson shoots and scores more than Miller does. But as
                      John Craven pointed out, Iverson can be considered to be a "necessary ball
                      dominator" -- the 76ers go nowhere unless they put the ball in his hands
                      and have him shoot.

                      Miller on the other hand never dominated the Pacers' offense the way
                      Iverson does the 76ers'. He didn't have Iverson's ball-hoggedly low FG%,
                      but he also didn't have to be the guy shooting 30 times a game.


                      --MKT
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