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Re: [APBR_analysis] Re: Euclidian comparison of current and past players

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  • Michael K. Tamada
    On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, mikel_ind wrote: [...] ... Actually I think of Majerle and Moncrief as being fairly similar, except that Moncrief was better and presumably
    Message 1 of 9 , Aug 2, 2002
      On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, mikel_ind wrote:

      [...]

      > Actually, I think it lends a bit of fascination to see dissimilar
      > players arriving at the same totals: Dan Majerle and Sidney
      > Moncrief? Vlade Divac and Dave DeBusschere? Shaq and McHale ??

      Actually I think of Majerle and Moncrief as being fairly similar, except
      that Moncrief was better and presumably piled up his similar stats at a
      faster rate. Both were all around guards who could play defense at
      all-defensive team levels but who could also score (real well in
      Moncrief's case) and rebound and pass some. Shaq and McHale of course
      were not really similar players, but given that they were
      both high-percentage low post players, it makes some sense. The matching
      of Divac and DeBusschere though tells us that there's some seriously
      missing variables. Guys who could rebound and score some and pass some,
      and who could shoot from outside, but I don't know if I'd draw any
      similarities beyond that.

      [...]

      > Mickey Johnson was a forerunner of the passing forwards we see
      > today: Webber, Mason, Garnett, etc. In the late '70s, he was pretty
      > unique.

      Yes, he was the first forward I remember seeing who would sometimes bring
      the ball out of backcourt -- this at 6'10". And not just in fast break
      situations or fullcourt pressure situations, but as part of the regular
      offense. I'd have to think that Rick Barry must've done so occasionally
      -- he may be the grand-daddy of all point forwards -- but I don't actually
      remember seeing him do it. John Johnson must've started doing it around
      the same time as Mickey Johnson, but he was 6'6" or 6'7", not as unusual.


      --MKT
    • mikel_ind
      ... What little I saw of Moncrief had him scoring around the basket and midrange. Majerle was the thunderdunker, then he had the 30-footer, but apparently
      Message 2 of 9 , Aug 3, 2002
        --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "Michael K. Tamada" <tamada@o...> wrote:
        > Actually I think of Majerle and Moncrief as being fairly similar,

        What little I saw of Moncrief had him scoring around the basket and
        midrange. Majerle was the thunderdunker, then he had the 30-footer,
        but apparently nothing midrange. Perhaps the ultimate case of a guy
        with unlimited range (in and out) who only gets 10-12 points in 36
        min.

        >... The matching
        > of Divac and DeBusschere though tells us that there's some seriously
        > missing variables. Guys who could rebound and score some and pass
        some,
        > and who could shoot from outside, but I don't know if I'd draw any
        > similarities beyond that.

        DeBusschere invented the DeBu Flop. Modelled it after Fosbury.

        (Rebound, score, pass, shoot from outside ... what more do you want?)


        >
        > > Mickey Johnson ...
        >
        > Yes, he was the first forward I remember seeing who would sometimes
        bring
        > the ball out of backcourt -- this at 6'10". And not just in fast
        break
        > situations or fullcourt pressure situations, but as part of the
        regular
        > offense. ... John Johnson must've started doing it
        around
        > the same time as Mickey Johnson, but he was 6'6" or 6'7", not as
        unusual.

        These guys had similarities for sure. JJ preceded Mickey J by 4
        years. Both guys played 12 seasons, shot fairly low percentages, had
        high turnovers, and got traded a lot ('til JJ settled down in
        Seattle). But they did it all -- or at least tried to.

        Mickey Johnson played in only 19 playoff games, but he made the best
        of it. He averaged 19.2 pts, 9.2 reb, per-36; his assists and
        turnovers were lower in these games, shooting pct higher (.548,
        vs .507 RS).

        He is another guy with big per-minute numbers who played mysteriously
        few minutes (28 pg) for his career.


        Mike G
      • HoopStudies
        ... footer, ... guy ... Moncrief was quicker and smaller, an outstanding defender. Majerle was bigger, still pretty quick, but also strong enough to avoid
        Message 3 of 9 , Aug 3, 2002
          --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "mikel_ind" <msg_53@h...> wrote:
          > --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "Michael K. Tamada" <tamada@o...> wrote:
          > > Actually I think of Majerle and Moncrief as being fairly similar,
          >
          > What little I saw of Moncrief had him scoring around the basket and
          > midrange. Majerle was the thunderdunker, then he had the 30-
          footer,
          > but apparently nothing midrange. Perhaps the ultimate case of a
          guy
          > with unlimited range (in and out) who only gets 10-12 points in 36
          > min.

          Moncrief was quicker and smaller, an outstanding defender. Majerle
          was bigger, still pretty quick, but also strong enough to avoid using
          his quickness. He played D well when he wanted to and wasn't hurt.
          Moncrief was the perceived star of his teams. Majerle was not.
          Moncrief was a better player, without a doubt.

          DeanO
        • Michael K. Tamada
          On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, HoopStudies wrote: [...] ... No question that Moncrief was better, although wasn t Marques Johnson still around when Moncrief joined the
          Message 4 of 9 , Aug 4, 2002
            On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, HoopStudies wrote:

            [...]

            > Moncrief was the perceived star of his teams. Majerle was not.
            > Moncrief was a better player, without a doubt.

            No question that Moncrief was better, although wasn't Marques Johnson
            still around when Moncrief joined the Bucks? MJ had been the star
            previously and I think of those Bucks teams as having two perceived stars,
            Marques and Moncrief.

            I think Marques joined the league the same year as Bernard King and Walter
            Davis, an incredible trio of SFs coming into the league at once. Injuries
            shortened his career, but he possessed a wider range of all-around skills
            than the other two, and might have been the best of them overall,
            quality-wise if not longevity-wise. Yet another negative contribution of
            Benoit Benajamin to the NBA: his (inadvertent) collision with Marques
            Johnson broke Johnson's neck and finished his NBA career.


            --MKT
          • alleyoop2
            He is another guy with big per-minute numbers who played mysteriously few minutes (28 pg) for his career. If I m not mistaken, Mickey played so few minutes
            Message 5 of 9 , Aug 6, 2002
              "He is another guy with big per-minute numbers who played
              mysteriously few minutes (28 pg) for his career."

              If I'm not mistaken, Mickey played so few minutes because he was a
              major pain in the ass and didn't play any defense.


              --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "mikel_ind" <msg_53@h...> wrote:
              > --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "Michael K. Tamada" <tamada@o...> wrote:
              > > Actually I think of Majerle and Moncrief as being fairly similar,
              >
              > What little I saw of Moncrief had him scoring around the basket and
              > midrange. Majerle was the thunderdunker, then he had the 30-
              footer,
              > but apparently nothing midrange. Perhaps the ultimate case of a
              guy
              > with unlimited range (in and out) who only gets 10-12 points in 36
              > min.
              >
              > >... The matching
              > > of Divac and DeBusschere though tells us that there's some
              seriously
              > > missing variables. Guys who could rebound and score some and
              pass
              > some,
              > > and who could shoot from outside, but I don't know if I'd draw any
              > > similarities beyond that.
              >
              > DeBusschere invented the DeBu Flop. Modelled it after Fosbury.
              >
              > (Rebound, score, pass, shoot from outside ... what more do you
              want?)
              >
              >
              > >
              > > > Mickey Johnson ...
              > >
              > > Yes, he was the first forward I remember seeing who would
              sometimes
              > bring
              > > the ball out of backcourt -- this at 6'10". And not just in fast
              > break
              > > situations or fullcourt pressure situations, but as part of the
              > regular
              > > offense. ... John Johnson must've started doing it
              > around
              > > the same time as Mickey Johnson, but he was 6'6" or 6'7", not as
              > unusual.
              >
              > These guys had similarities for sure. JJ preceded Mickey J by 4
              > years. Both guys played 12 seasons, shot fairly low percentages,
              had
              > high turnovers, and got traded a lot ('til JJ settled down in
              > Seattle). But they did it all -- or at least tried to.
              >
              > Mickey Johnson played in only 19 playoff games, but he made the
              best
              > of it. He averaged 19.2 pts, 9.2 reb, per-36; his assists and
              > turnovers were lower in these games, shooting pct higher (.548,
              > vs .507 RS).
              >
              > He is another guy with big per-minute numbers who played
              mysteriously
              > few minutes (28 pg) for his career.
              >
              >
              > Mike G
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