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Walter Berry and other head cases

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  • Dean Oliver
    I was thinking about good players who basically got booted from the league for attitude. The first guy I always think of is Walter Berry, the former St. Johns
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 18, 2002
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      I was thinking about good players who basically got booted from the league for attitude.  The first guy I always think of is Walter Berry, the former St. Johns player who might have even been Player of the Year by some counts in college.  In the NBA, I always had him as being a pretty effective offensive player.  Defensively, he left a lot to be desired and I remember reading coaches say that was the reason they didn't want him, though it was at least as much attitude difficulties. 

       

      Oliver Miller was essentially excluded from the NBA for weight issues.  He didn't play poorly at first, but he did go downhill.

       

      Dennis Rodman ended up not being able to get a job because of attitude. 

       

      Charles Barkley hurt his value a little bit because of attitude.

       

      There are probably a slew of lesser players with attitude issues.  But I know I’m missing some more prominent ones.  Suggestions?

       

      Dean Oliver

      Journal of Basketball Studies

      www.rawbw.com/~deano/

    • McKibbin, Stuart
      Attitudes. Nowadays I d say Jim Jackson, Chris Gatling, Rod Strickland, Oakley, Doug Christie (I guess that s really his wife s attitude), Sam Cassell, Van
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 18, 2002
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        Attitudes. Nowadays I'd say Jim Jackson, Chris Gatling, Rod Strickland, Oakley, Doug Christie (I guess that's really his wife's attitude), Sam Cassell, Van Exel, Laettner. The don't fit your definition of being booted from the league---although Jackson and Strickland came close last year. Mostly they're just guys who get traded a lot because no coach can put up with their act.

        Chris Washburn got booted. Leon Smith got booted.

        ----Original Message-----
        From: deano@...
        Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 9:33 AM
        To: apbr@yahoogroups.com; apbr_analysis@yahoogroups.com; deano@...
        Subject: [APBR_analysis] Walter Berry and other head cases




        I was thinking about good players who basically got booted from the
        league for attitude. The first guy I always think of is Walter Berry,
        the former St. Johns player who might have even been Player of the Year
        by some counts in college. In the NBA, I always had him as being a
        pretty effective offensive player. Defensively, he left a lot to be
        desired and I remember reading coaches say that was the reason they
        didn't want him, though it was at least as much attitude difficulties.

        Oliver Miller was essentially excluded from the NBA for weight issues.
        He didn't play poorly at first, but he did go downhill.

        Dennis Rodman ended up not being able to get a job because of attitude.


        Charles Barkley hurt his value a little bit because of attitude.

        There are probably a slew of lesser players with attitude issues. But I
        know I'm missing some more prominent ones. Suggestions?

        Dean Oliver
        Journal of Basketball Studies
        www.rawbw.com/~deano/
      • HoopStudies
        ... Strickland, Oakley, Doug Christie (I guess that s really his wife s attitude), Sam Cassell, Van Exel, Laettner. The don t fit your definition of being
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 18, 2002
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          --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "McKibbin, Stuart" <smckibbi@c...> wrote:
          > Attitudes. Nowadays I'd say Jim Jackson, Chris Gatling, Rod
          Strickland, Oakley, Doug Christie (I guess that's really his wife's
          attitude), Sam Cassell, Van Exel, Laettner. The don't fit your
          definition of being booted from the league---although Jackson and
          Strickland came close last year. Mostly they're just guys who get
          traded a lot because no coach can put up with their act.
          >
          > Chris Washburn got booted. Leon Smith got booted.

          Isiah Rider is an obvious one I forgot.

          Jackson is not one I knew about. Nor Oakley or Laettner.

          And I don't think Christie's wife is going to get him traded. Unless
          she barges in on practice asking for a smoochy-woochy.
        • john wallace craven
          ... Hmmm... Jason Kidd hasn t been exactly booted from the league, but he has switched teams twice because of an inability to get along with a player or the
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 18, 2002
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            On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Dean Oliver wrote:

            >
            >
            > I was thinking about good players who basically got booted from the
            > league for attitude. The first guy I always think of is Walter Berry,
            > the former St. Johns player who might have even been Player of the Year
            > by some counts in college. In the NBA, I always had him as being a
            > pretty effective offensive player. Defensively, he left a lot to be
            > desired and I remember reading coaches say that was the reason they
            > didn't want him, though it was at least as much attitude difficulties.

            Hmmm... Jason Kidd hasn't been exactly booted from the league, but he has
            switched teams twice because of an inability to get along with a player or
            the owner. The same goes, more or less, for Stephon Marbury. J.R. Rider is
            probably the best example of a guy who got hounded out of the league in
            part because his attitude sucked. Mahmoud-Abdul Rauf didn't have a crappy
            attitude, I don't think, but his refusal to stand for the Star-Spangled
            Banner in Denver was crucial in getting him kicked out of the NBA and
            never being able to recapture a starting role again. Kendall Gill has
            moved around because of attitude problems, IIRC (I know he was moved from
            the Sonics because he couldn't get along with George Karl, but I'm not
            sure if attitude was a factor before or since).

            >
            > Oliver Miller was essentially excluded from the NBA for weight issues.
            > He didn't play poorly at first, but he did go downhill.

            Well, if weight is part of "attitude", then include Hot Rod Williams and
            Bison Dele too. Actually, Dele would probably make it even if you didn't
            factor in weight.

            John Craven

            >
            > Dennis Rodman ended up not being able to get a job because of attitude.
            >
            >
            > Charles Barkley hurt his value a little bit because of attitude.
            >
            > There are probably a slew of lesser players with attitude issues. But I
            > know I'm missing some more prominent ones. Suggestions?
            >
            > Dean Oliver
            > Journal of Basketball Studies
            > www.rawbw.com/~deano/
            >
          • HoopStudies
            ... the ... Berry, ... the Year ... a ... be ... they ... difficulties. ... he has ... player or ... Rider is ... league in ... crappy ... Spangled ... and ...
            Message 5 of 9 , Jun 18, 2002
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              --- In APBR_analysis@y..., john wallace craven <john1974@u...> wrote:
              > > I was thinking about good players who basically got booted from
              the
              > > league for attitude. The first guy I always think of is Walter
              Berry,
              > > the former St. Johns player who might have even been Player of
              the Year
              > > by some counts in college. In the NBA, I always had him as being
              a
              > > pretty effective offensive player. Defensively, he left a lot to
              be
              > > desired and I remember reading coaches say that was the reason
              they
              > > didn't want him, though it was at least as much attitude
              difficulties.
              >
              > Hmmm... Jason Kidd hasn't been exactly booted from the league, but
              he has
              > switched teams twice because of an inability to get along with a
              player or
              > the owner. The same goes, more or less, for Stephon Marbury. J.R.
              Rider is
              > probably the best example of a guy who got hounded out of the
              league in
              > part because his attitude sucked. Mahmoud-Abdul Rauf didn't have a
              crappy
              > attitude, I don't think, but his refusal to stand for the Star-
              Spangled
              > Banner in Denver was crucial in getting him kicked out of the NBA
              and
              > never being able to recapture a starting role again. Kendall Gill
              has
              > moved around because of attitude problems, IIRC (I know he was
              moved from
              > the Sonics because he couldn't get along with George Karl, but I'm
              not
              > sure if attitude was a factor before or since).
              >
              > >
              > > Oliver Miller was essentially excluded from the NBA for weight
              issues.
              > > He didn't play poorly at first, but he did go downhill.
              >
              > Well, if weight is part of "attitude", then include Hot Rod
              Williams and
              > Bison Dele too. Actually, Dele would probably make it even if you
              didn't
              > factor in weight.

              Not Hot Rod Williams, but the other John Williams, John S. Williams.
              Aka Hot Fudge Williams. He lasted a long time before getting booted
              actually. I was surprised.

              I didn't remember Bison Dele having weight problems. I know he was
              weird.

              DeanO
            • bchaikin@aol.com
              hot fudge williams?....love it....hadn t heard that one....
              Message 6 of 9 , Jun 18, 2002
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                hot fudge williams?....love it....hadn't heard that one....
              • bchaikin@aol.com
                vernon maxwell played for 8 different teams in 13 seasons, and was a starter for 6-8 of those years, so he doesn t qualify for the
                Message 7 of 9 , Jun 18, 2002
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                  vernon maxwell played for 8 different teams in 13 seasons, and was a starter for 6-8 of those years, so he doesn't qualify for the booted-out-of-the-league-for-attitude group. but he was surely moved around from team-to-team because of his seemingly constant angry attitude towards playing, not for any lack of talent. best seasons were around 17 pts/g and 5 ast/g and some good "D".....
                • bchaikin@aol.com
                  also if i remember didn t oliver miller turn down a huge-something-like 3 year $9 million contract ($3 mil/season) from toronto to play out his option with i
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jun 18, 2002
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                    also if i remember didn't oliver miller turn down a huge-something-like 3 year $9 million contract ($3 mil/season) from toronto to play out his option with i think phoenix? after that you heard little if anything about him...kinda drummed himself out of the league...
                  • alleyoop2
                    Are we talking about players who had bad attitudes or players who had weight problems? Oliver Miller, Dinner Bell Mel Turpin, Ike Austin and John Hot Plate
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jun 19, 2002
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                      Are we talking about players who had bad attitudes or players who had
                      weight problems? Oliver Miller, Dinner Bell Mel Turpin, Ike Austin
                      and John Hot Plate Williams would all be examples of weight issues.

                      As far as attitude, I can't believe nobody mentioned Derrick Coleman
                      yet. A few other examples would be John Brisker, Marvin Barnes and
                      Warren Jabali, Benoit Benjamin, Joe Barry Carroll (aka Joe Barely
                      Cares), Cedric "vacation" Ceballos, Chris Morris, Rony Seikaly,
                      Robert Horry (in Phoenix), Latrell Sprewell (in Golden St.) and Olden
                      Polynice. Somebody asked about Jim Jackson before; he's bitched about
                      minutes everywhere he's played, so he's definitey in too. Most of
                      these guys are big men; I guess coaches are willing to put up with
                      more because size is so scarce.





                      --- In APBR_analysis@y..., bchaikin@a... wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > hot fudge williams?....love it....hadn't heard that one....
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