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Contact info for Magen and Peleg

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  • Robert R. Cargill
    Does anyone have updated contact information for archaeologists Yizhak Magen and Yuval Peleg? Please feel free to post here or email me directly. Thanx. Robert
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 24, 2009
      Does anyone have updated contact information for archaeologists Yizhak Magen and Yuval
      Peleg? Please feel free to post here or email me directly.

      Thanx.

      Robert R. Cargill, Ph.D.
      Center for Digital Humanities, UCLA
      cargill@...
    • goranson@duke.edu
      A new article reports measurements of the ratio of chlorine and bromine in ink from a Qumran Cave One manuscript and concludes that the ink was prepared with
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 25, 2009
        A new article reports measurements of the ratio of chlorine and bromine in ink
        from a Qumran Cave One manuscript and concludes that the ink was prepared with
        water from or near the Dead Sea; the Qumran scroll was inscribed near the Dead
        Sea.

        Ira Rabin, Oliver Hahn, Timo Wolff, Admir Masic and Gisela Weinberg, "On the
        Origin of the Ink of the Thanksgiving Scroll (1QHodayot a)," Dead Sea
        Discoveries 16.1 (2009) 97-106.

        Abstract (p. 97): "In this study we demonstrate the possibility to
        identify the
        production area of the scrolls, coupling non-destructive quantitative analysis
        of trace elements to spectroscopic investigation of the inks. This approach,
        that allowed us to determine the Dead Sea area as origin of 1QHodayot a, is of
        general validity."

        Conclusion (p. 102) "Using the fingerprint composition of the water from the
        Dead Sea region we could directly link the fragment, and consequently, the
        production of 1QHodayot a to the Qumran area. Furthermore, our study of
        organic
        components present in the carbon ink of this scroll indicates that gall nuts
        extracts were used in the ink preparation as early as 1st century C.E."

        Stephen Goranson
        http://www.duke.edu/~goranson/Essenes_&_Others.pdf
        "Others and Intra-Jewish Polemic as Reflected in Qumran Texts"
      • David Hall
        Israel is a leading exporter of bromine/bromide compounds extracted from the Dead Sea salts recovered at the Dead Sea saltworks south of Masada. The
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 25, 2009
          Israel is a leading exporter of bromine/bromide compounds extracted from the Dead Sea salts recovered at the Dead Sea saltworks south of Masada. The concentrations of bromine are much higher in Dead Sea water than in most other water sources in Israel and the world. 
           
          This is a remarkable study as it is more evidence that Qumran was a Jewish sectarian community responsible for copying the Dead Sea scrolls.
           
          Some had argued the scrolls were from Jerusalem or elsewhere and the place might have been an industrial facility in a suburb of Jericho.  Another argued Qumran was a Roman manor and not a religious community. 
           
          There was a scribes table (Amman Museum) and bronze inkwell (Shrine of the Book, Israel Museum) found in the "scriptorium" on the site by Devaux.   
           
          David Q. Hall
          dqhall59@...
           


          --- On Wed, 2/25/09, goranson@... <goranson@...> wrote:

          From: goranson@... <goranson@...>
          Subject: [ANE-2] ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead Sea
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, February 25, 2009, 5:35 AM







          A new article reports measurements of the ratio of chlorine and bromine in ink
          from a Qumran Cave One manuscript and concludes that the ink was prepared with
          water from or near the Dead Sea; the Qumran scroll was inscribed near the Dead
          Sea.

          Ira Rabin, Oliver Hahn, Timo Wolff, Admir Masic and Gisela Weinberg, "On the
          Origin of the Ink of the Thanksgiving Scroll (1QHodayot a)," Dead Sea
          Discoveries 16.1 (2009) 97-106.

          Abstract (p. 97): "In this study we demonstrate the possibility to
          identify the
          production area of the scrolls, coupling non-destructive quantitative analysis
          of trace elements to spectroscopic investigation of the inks. This approach,
          that allowed us to determine the Dead Sea area as origin of 1QHodayot a, is of
          general validity."

          Conclusion (p. 102) "Using the fingerprint composition of the water from the
          Dead Sea region we could directly link the fragment, and consequently, the
          production of 1QHodayot a to the Qumran area. Furthermore, our study of
          organic
          components present in the carbon ink of this scroll indicates that gall nuts
          extracts were used in the ink preparation as early as 1st century C.E."

          Stephen Goranson
          http://www.duke edu/~goranson/ Essenes_& _Others.pdf
          "Others and Intra-Jewish Polemic as Reflected in Qumran Texts"



















          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • dastacey62
          Of course even if the ink was definitley prepared near to the Dead Sea one can not imply that that one scroll was written at Qumran - Jericho, for example,
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 26, 2009
            Of course even if the ink was definitley prepared 'near to the Dead
            Sea' one can not imply that that one scroll was written at Qumran -
            Jericho, for example, is 'near to the Dead Sea'.

            David Stacey
            UK

            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, goranson@... wrote:
            >
            >
            > A new article reports measurements of the ratio of chlorine and
            bromine in ink
            > from a Qumran Cave One manuscript and concludes that the ink was
            prepared with
            > water from or near the Dead Sea; the Qumran scroll was inscribed
            near the Dead
            > Sea.
            >
            > Ira Rabin, Oliver Hahn, Timo Wolff, Admir Masic and Gisela
            Weinberg, "On the
            > Origin of the Ink of the Thanksgiving Scroll (1QHodayot a)," Dead
            Sea
            > Discoveries 16.1 (2009) 97-106.
            >
            > Abstract (p. 97): "In this study we demonstrate the possibility to
            > identify the
            > production area of the scrolls, coupling non-destructive
            quantitative analysis
            > of trace elements to spectroscopic investigation of the inks. This
            approach,
            > that allowed us to determine the Dead Sea area as origin of
            1QHodayot a, is of
            > general validity."
            >
            > Conclusion (p. 102) "Using the fingerprint composition of the water
            from the
            > Dead Sea region we could directly link the fragment, and
            consequently, the
            > production of 1QHodayot a to the Qumran area. Furthermore, our
            study of
            > organic
            > components present in the carbon ink of this scroll indicates that
            gall nuts
            > extracts were used in the ink preparation as early as 1st century
            C.E."
            >
            > Stephen Goranson
            > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson/Essenes_&_Others.pdf
            > "Others and Intra-Jewish Polemic as Reflected in Qumran Texts"
            >
          • George F Somsel
            Yes, I can just hear it now -- the capo de tutti capi at Qumran says to an underling, Joel, take this ink to Jericho.  They don t know how to make ink there,
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 26, 2009
              Yes, I can just hear it now -- the capo de tutti capi at Qumran says to an underling, "Joel, take this ink to Jericho.� They don't know how to make ink there, and they don't have the proper water."
              �george
              gfsomsel


              � search for truth, hear truth,
              learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
              defend the truth till death.


              - Jan Hus
              _________




              ________________________________
              From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 3:27:22 AM
              Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead Sea


              Of course even if the ink was definitley prepared 'near to the Dead
              Sea' one can not imply that that one scroll was written at Qumran -
              Jericho, for example, is 'near to the Dead Sea'.

              David Stacey
              UK

              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, goranson@... wrote:
              >
              >
              > A new article reports measurements of the ratio of chlorine and
              bromine in ink
              > from a Qumran Cave One manuscript and concludes that the ink was
              prepared with
              > water from or near the Dead Sea; the Qumran scroll was inscribed
              near the Dead
              > Sea.
              >
              > Ira Rabin, Oliver Hahn, Timo Wolff, Admir Masic and Gisela
              Weinberg, "On the
              > Origin of the Ink of the Thanksgiving Scroll (1QHodayot a)," Dead
              Sea
              > Discoveries 16.1 (2009) 97-106.
              >
              > Abstract (p. 97): "In this study we demonstrate the possibility to
              > identify the
              > production area of the scrolls, coupling non-destructive
              quantitative analysis
              > of trace elements to spectroscopic investigation of the inks. This
              approach,
              > that allowed us to determine the Dead Sea area as origin of
              1QHodayot a, is of
              > general validity."
              >
              > Conclusion (p. 102) "Using the fingerprint composition of the water
              from the
              > Dead Sea region we could directly link the fragment, and
              consequently, the
              > production of 1QHodayot a to the Qumran area. Furthermore, our
              study of
              > organic
              > components present in the carbon ink of this scroll indicates that
              gall nuts
              > extracts were used in the ink preparation as early as 1st century
              C.E."
              >
              > Stephen Goranson
              > http://www.duke edu/~goranson/ Essenes_& _Others.pdf
              > "Others and Intra-Jewish Polemic as Reflected in Qumran Texts"
              .






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • dastacey62
              Stephen It is noticeable how selective you are in what you want to draw to peoples attention. You did not, for example, inform this list of either my article
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 26, 2009
                Stephen It is noticeable how selective you are in what you want to
                draw to peoples attention. You did not, for example, inform this list
                of either my article in DSD 14:2 (2007) in which I showed that, from
                the archaeological data, the only buildings existing throughout
                seventy years of the Hasmonean period were the tower, the pottery
                kilns and the industrial building - no living quarters, not enough
                water for year round occupation, unlikely site for elite scribes. I
                also showed that the 'main' aqueduct and, with it, the expansion of
                Qumran, could not possible date earlier than 31 BCE. By merely
                ignoring it this fact will not go away. Nor did you mention my
                article in BAIAS 26 (2008) in which I suggested that during that time
                the site was a seasonal industrial area.

                To further consolidate the dating of the 'main' aqueduct I suggest
                you consider the dam that was eventually built across the mouth of a
                basin in Nahal Qumran to capture flood water. This dam must have been
                between 4 and 5 metres high and as such the base of the walls must
                have been c. 3m thick (compare with the Byzantine dams associated
                with the low-level aqueduct at Caesarea). It had to withstand the
                ferocity of torrential floods and would have been a considerable feet
                of engineering, requiring great technological know how and a large
                budget. The only dams from the Second Temple period of which I am
                aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are integral
                parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious cities,
                Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would have had
                to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran. The Qumran
                dam is clearly related to the expansion of the site which required
                the raising of the sides of the cistern L110 (as noted by de Vaux
                1973: 9)and the two pools L117 and 118. A channel overflowing from
                the top of the raised side of L117 takes water to the NE. Magen and
                Peleg have traced part of this channel running over a 'northern' dump
                (Magen and Peleg 2007 Fig 11) which they date to 'the first half of
                the first century' (M and P 2007:8). When the material from
                this 'dump' is published it may well confirm my dating of the 'main'
                aqueduct to c. 31 BCE.

                As an archaeologist I can only address archaeological issues with
                any confidence. I can make no contribuition to the dating of the
                Thanksgiving Scroll. However I understand it has been dated as early
                as the 2nd century BCE (thus Eshel)or to about 40 BCE (thus Stokl) a
                period when there is no evidence for permanent occupation at Qumran.
                So even it is was written somewhere near the Dead Sea it's unlikely
                that it was at Qumran.

                David Stacey

                --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, goranson@... wrote:
                >
                >
                > A new article reports measurements of the ratio of chlorine and
                bromine in ink
                > from a Qumran Cave One manuscript and concludes that the ink was
                prepared with
                > water from or near the Dead Sea; the Qumran scroll was inscribed
                near the Dead
                > Sea.
                >
                > Ira Rabin, Oliver Hahn, Timo Wolff, Admir Masic and Gisela
                Weinberg, "On the
                > Origin of the Ink of the Thanksgiving Scroll (1QHodayot a)," Dead
                Sea
                > Discoveries 16.1 (2009) 97-106.
                >
                > Abstract (p. 97): "In this study we demonstrate the possibility to
                > identify the
                > production area of the scrolls, coupling non-destructive
                quantitative analysis
                > of trace elements to spectroscopic investigation of the inks. This
                approach,
                > that allowed us to determine the Dead Sea area as origin of
                1QHodayot a, is of
                > general validity."
                >
                > Conclusion (p. 102) "Using the fingerprint composition of the water
                from the
                > Dead Sea region we could directly link the fragment, and
                consequently, the
                > production of 1QHodayot a to the Qumran area. Furthermore, our
                study of
                > organic
                > components present in the carbon ink of this scroll indicates that
                gall nuts
                > extracts were used in the ink preparation as early as 1st century
                C.E."
                >
                > Stephen Goranson
                > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson/Essenes_&_Others.pdf
                > "Others and Intra-Jewish Polemic as Reflected in Qumran Texts"
                >
              • David Hall
                Dealing with probabilities, the probability of the ink being prepared at Qumran is greater than at Jericho were there was the strong spring Ein Sultan and
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 26, 2009
                  Dealing with probabilities, the probability of the ink being prepared at Qumran is greater than at Jericho were there was the strong spring Ein Sultan and Herod's aqueduct down from the Wadi/Nahal Qelt.  The greater probability leads to the primary theory.  Divergent, contrarian theories of less probable nature are of lesser value and may not recieve as much acclaim.
                   
                  David Q. Hall 
                   


                  --- On Thu, 2/26/09, dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...> wrote:

                  From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
                  Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead Sea
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 3:27 AM






                  Of course even if the ink was definitley prepared 'near to the Dead
                  Sea' one can not imply that that one scroll was written at Qumran -
                  Jericho, for example, is 'near to the Dead Sea'.

                  David Stacey
                  UK

                  --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, goranson@... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > A new article reports measurements of the ratio of chlorine and
                  bromine in ink
                  > from a Qumran Cave One manuscript and concludes that the ink was
                  prepared with
                  > water from or near the Dead Sea; the Qumran scroll was inscribed
                  near the Dead
                  > Sea.
                  >
                  > Ira Rabin, Oliver Hahn, Timo Wolff, Admir Masic and Gisela
                  Weinberg, "On the
                  > Origin of the Ink of the Thanksgiving Scroll (1QHodayot a)," Dead
                  Sea
                  > Discoveries 16.1 (2009) 97-106.
                  >
                  > Abstract (p. 97): "In this study we demonstrate the possibility to
                  > identify the
                  > production area of the scrolls, coupling non-destructive
                  quantitative analysis
                  > of trace elements to spectroscopic investigation of the inks. This
                  approach,
                  > that allowed us to determine the Dead Sea area as origin of
                  1QHodayot a, is of
                  > general validity."
                  >
                  > Conclusion (p. 102) "Using the fingerprint composition of the water
                  from the
                  > Dead Sea region we could directly link the fragment, and
                  consequently, the
                  > production of 1QHodayot a to the Qumran area. Furthermore, our
                  study of
                  > organic
                  > components present in the carbon ink of this scroll indicates that
                  gall nuts
                  > extracts were used in the ink preparation as early as 1st century
                  C.E."
                  >
                  > Stephen Goranson
                  > http://www.duke edu/~goranson/ Essenes_& _Others.pdf
                  > "Others and Intra-Jewish Polemic as Reflected in Qumran Texts"
                  >



















                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Joe Zias
                  David Stacey writes in connection to Goransons post the following::The only dams from the Second Temple period of which I am aware are both considered to be
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 26, 2009
                    David Stacey writes in connection to Goransons post the following::The only dams from the Second Temple period of which I am

                    aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are integral

                    parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious cities,

                    Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would have had

                    to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran.

                    I would like to remind readers that a few kms up the road in the 8th millineum BC the folks in Jericho were already constructing dams. For the folks in Qumran I doub't if this was any mean feat, some 8,000 yrs later.

                    Joe

                    Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                    Anthropology/Paleopathology

                    Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                    Jerusalem, Israel

                    --- On Thu, 2/26/09, dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...> wrote:
                    From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
                    Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead Sea
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 9:59 AM












                    Stephen It is noticeable how selective you are in what you want to

                    draw to peoples attention. You did not, for example, inform this list

                    of either my article in DSD 14:2 (2007) in which I showed that, from

                    the archaeological data, the only buildings existing throughout

                    seventy years of the Hasmonean period were the tower, the pottery

                    kilns and the industrial building - no living quarters, not enough

                    water for year round occupation, unlikely site for elite scribes. I

                    also showed that the 'main' aqueduct and, with it, the expansion of

                    Qumran, could not possible date earlier than 31 BCE. By merely

                    ignoring it this fact will not go away. Nor did you mention my

                    article in BAIAS 26 (2008) in which I suggested that during that time

                    the site was a seasonal industrial area.



                    To further consolidate the dating of the 'main' aqueduct I suggest

                    you consider the dam that was eventually built across the mouth of a

                    basin in Nahal Qumran to capture flood water. This dam must have been

                    between 4 and 5 metres high and as such the base of the walls must

                    have been c. 3m thick (compare with the Byzantine dams associated

                    with the low-level aqueduct at Caesarea). It had to withstand the

                    ferocity of torrential floods and would have been a considerable feet

                    of engineering, requiring great technological know how and a large

                    budget. The only dams from the Second Temple period of which I am

                    aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are integral

                    parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious cities,

                    Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would have had

                    to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran. The Qumran

                    dam is clearly related to the expansion of the site which required

                    the raising of the sides of the cistern L110 (as noted by de Vaux

                    1973: 9)and the two pools L117 and 118. A channel overflowing from

                    the top of the raised side of L117 takes water to the NE. Magen and

                    Peleg have traced part of this channel running over a 'northern' dump

                    (Magen and Peleg 2007 Fig 11) which they date to 'the first half of

                    the first century' (M and P 2007:8). When the material from

                    this 'dump' is published it may well confirm my dating of the 'main'

                    aqueduct to c. 31 BCE.



                    As an archaeologist I can only address archaeological issues with

                    any confidence. I can make no contribuition to the dating of the

                    Thanksgiving Scroll. However I understand it has been dated as early

                    as the 2nd century BCE (thus Eshel)or to about 40 BCE (thus Stokl) a

                    period when there is no evidence for permanent occupation at Qumran.

                    So even it is was written somewhere near the Dead Sea it's unlikely

                    that it was at Qumran.



                    David Stacey



                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, goranson@... wrote:

                    >

                    >

                    > A new article reports measurements of the ratio of chlorine and

                    bromine in ink

                    > from a Qumran Cave One manuscript and concludes that the ink was

                    prepared with

                    > water from or near the Dead Sea; the Qumran scroll was inscribed

                    near the Dead

                    > Sea.

                    >

                    > Ira Rabin, Oliver Hahn, Timo Wolff, Admir Masic and Gisela

                    Weinberg, "On the

                    > Origin of the Ink of the Thanksgiving Scroll (1QHodayot a)," Dead

                    Sea

                    > Discoveries 16.1 (2009) 97-106.

                    >

                    > Abstract (p. 97): "In this study we demonstrate the possibility to

                    > identify the

                    > production area of the scrolls, coupling non-destructive

                    quantitative analysis

                    > of trace elements to spectroscopic investigation of the inks. This

                    approach,

                    > that allowed us to determine the Dead Sea area as origin of

                    1QHodayot a, is of

                    > general validity."

                    >

                    > Conclusion (p. 102) "Using the fingerprint composition of the water

                    from the

                    > Dead Sea region we could directly link the fragment, and

                    consequently, the

                    > production of 1QHodayot a to the Qumran area. Furthermore, our

                    study of

                    > organic

                    > components present in the carbon ink of this scroll indicates that

                    gall nuts

                    > extracts were used in the ink preparation as early as 1st century

                    C.E."

                    >

                    > Stephen Goranson

                    > http://www.duke edu/~goranson/ Essenes_& _Others.pdf

                    > "Others and Intra-Jewish Polemic as Reflected in Qumran Texts"

                    >




























                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • dastacey62
                    So Joe, Building a dam 4 to 5 m high, with walls on average perhaps 2.5 m thick, perhaps with foundations cut into the bedrock, was all a bit of a doddle. The
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 27, 2009
                      So Joe, Building a dam 4 to 5 m high, with walls on average perhaps
                      2.5 m thick, perhaps with foundations cut into the bedrock, was all a
                      bit of a doddle. The fact that no trace of it has survived the floods
                      of the past 2000 years indicates the forces it had to withstand. If
                      it was all so easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all
                      over the country? The fact is that only Herod seems to have had the
                      necessary knowledge and resources which he put to use in his two
                      prestigious city water systems; for the high-level aqueduct at
                      Caesarea, and the Wadi el-Biyar dam in the Solomons Pool system
                      outside Jerusalem.
                      David Stacey

                      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Joe Zias <joezias@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > David Stacey writes in connection to Goransons post the
                      following::The only dams from the Second Temple period of which I am
                      >
                      > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are integral
                      >
                      > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious cities,
                      >
                      > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would have
                      had
                      >
                      > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran.
                      >
                      > I would like to remind readers that a few kms up the road in the
                      8th millineum BC the folks in Jericho were already constructing dams.
                      For the folks in Qumran I doub't if this was any mean feat, some
                      8,000 yrs later.
                      >
                      > Joe
                      >
                      > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                      > Anthropology/Paleopathology
                      >
                      > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                      > Jerusalem, Israel
                      >
                      > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...> wrote:
                      > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
                      > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead
                      Sea
                      > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 9:59 AM
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Stephen It is noticeable how selective you are in what
                      you want to
                      >
                      > draw to peoples attention. You did not, for example, inform this
                      list
                      >
                      > of either my article in DSD 14:2 (2007) in which I showed that,
                      from
                      >
                      > the archaeological data, the only buildings existing throughout
                      >
                      > seventy years of the Hasmonean period were the tower, the pottery
                      >
                      > kilns and the industrial building - no living quarters, not enough
                      >
                      > water for year round occupation, unlikely site for elite scribes. I
                      >
                      > also showed that the 'main' aqueduct and, with it, the expansion of
                      >
                      > Qumran, could not possible date earlier than 31 BCE. By merely
                      >
                      > ignoring it this fact will not go away. Nor did you mention my
                      >
                      > article in BAIAS 26 (2008) in which I suggested that during that
                      time
                      >
                      > the site was a seasonal industrial area.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To further consolidate the dating of the 'main' aqueduct I suggest
                      >
                      > you consider the dam that was eventually built across the mouth of
                      a
                      >
                      > basin in Nahal Qumran to capture flood water. This dam must have
                      been
                      >
                      > between 4 and 5 metres high and as such the base of the walls must
                      >
                      > have been c. 3m thick (compare with the Byzantine dams associated
                      >
                      > with the low-level aqueduct at Caesarea). It had to withstand the
                      >
                      > ferocity of torrential floods and would have been a considerable
                      feet
                      >
                      > of engineering, requiring great technological know how and a large
                      >
                      > budget. The only dams from the Second Temple period of which I am
                      >
                      > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are integral
                      >
                      > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious cities,
                      >
                      > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would have
                      had
                      >
                      > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran. The Qumran
                      >
                      > dam is clearly related to the expansion of the site which required
                      >
                      > the raising of the sides of the cistern L110 (as noted by de Vaux
                      >
                      > 1973: 9)and the two pools L117 and 118. A channel overflowing from
                      >
                      > the top of the raised side of L117 takes water to the NE. Magen and
                      >
                      > Peleg have traced part of this channel running over a 'northern'
                      dump
                      >
                      > (Magen and Peleg 2007 Fig 11) which they date to 'the first half of
                      >
                      > the first century' (M and P 2007:8). When the material from
                      >
                      > this 'dump' is published it may well confirm my dating of
                      the 'main'
                      >
                      > aqueduct to c. 31 BCE.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > As an archaeologist I can only address archaeological issues with
                      >
                      > any confidence. I can make no contribuition to the dating of the
                      >
                      > Thanksgiving Scroll. However I understand it has been dated as
                      early
                      >
                      > as the 2nd century BCE (thus Eshel)or to about 40 BCE (thus Stokl)
                      a
                      >
                      > period when there is no evidence for permanent occupation at
                      Qumran.
                      >
                      > So even it is was written somewhere near the Dead Sea it's unlikely
                      >
                      > that it was at Qumran.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > David Stacey
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, goranson@ wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > A new article reports measurements of the ratio of chlorine and
                      >
                      > bromine in ink
                      >
                      > > from a Qumran Cave One manuscript and concludes that the ink was
                      >
                      > prepared with
                      >
                      > > water from or near the Dead Sea; the Qumran scroll was inscribed
                      >
                      > near the Dead
                      >
                      > > Sea.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Ira Rabin, Oliver Hahn, Timo Wolff, Admir Masic and Gisela
                      >
                      > Weinberg, "On the
                      >
                      > > Origin of the Ink of the Thanksgiving Scroll (1QHodayot a)," Dead
                      >
                      > Sea
                      >
                      > > Discoveries 16.1 (2009) 97-106.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Abstract (p. 97): "In this study we demonstrate the possibility
                      to
                      >
                      > > identify the
                      >
                      > > production area of the scrolls, coupling non-destructive
                      >
                      > quantitative analysis
                      >
                      > > of trace elements to spectroscopic investigation of the inks.
                      This
                      >
                      > approach,
                      >
                      > > that allowed us to determine the Dead Sea area as origin of
                      >
                      > 1QHodayot a, is of
                      >
                      > > general validity."
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Conclusion (p. 102) "Using the fingerprint composition of the
                      water
                      >
                      > from the
                      >
                      > > Dead Sea region we could directly link the fragment, and
                      >
                      > consequently, the
                      >
                      > > production of 1QHodayot a to the Qumran area. Furthermore, our
                      >
                      > study of
                      >
                      > > organic
                      >
                      > > components present in the carbon ink of this scroll indicates
                      that
                      >
                      > gall nuts
                      >
                      > > extracts were used in the ink preparation as early as 1st century
                      >
                      > C.E."
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Stephen Goranson
                      >
                      > > http://www.duke edu/~goranson/ Essenes_& _Others.pdf
                      >
                      > > "Others and Intra-Jewish Polemic as Reflected in Qumran Texts"
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Joe Zias
                      David Stacey on the subject of dams in antiquity writes If it was all so easy why didn t every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all over the country? The answer
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 28, 2009
                        David Stacey on the subject of dams in antiquity writes "If it was all so
                        easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all over the country?"
                        The answer is simple, in the desert areas where rain fall is minimal as in
                        Masada, Qumran and Jericho, dams are necessary to collect runoff from higher
                        elevations. In areas where there is adequate seasonal rainfall or springs,
                        such as Jerusalem, Caesarea, Beit Shean ect, they are unnecessary.



                        Joe Zias



                        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                        dastacey62
                        Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:51 AM
                        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead Sea



                        So Joe, Building a dam 4 to 5 m high, with walls on average perhaps
                        2.5 m thick, perhaps with foundations cut into the bedrock, was all a
                        bit of a doddle. The fact that no trace of it has survived the floods
                        of the past 2000 years indicates the forces it had to withstand. If
                        it was all so easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all
                        over the country? The fact is that only Herod seems to have had the
                        necessary knowledge and resources which he put to use in his two
                        prestigious city water systems; for the high-level aqueduct at
                        Caesarea, and the Wadi el-Biyar dam in the Solomons Pool system
                        outside Jerusalem.
                        David Stacey

                        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> , Joe Zias
                        <joezias@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > David Stacey writes in connection to Goransons post the
                        following::The only dams from the Second Temple period of which I am
                        >
                        > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are integral
                        >
                        > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious cities,
                        >
                        > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would have
                        had
                        >
                        > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran.
                        >
                        > I would like to remind readers that a few kms up the road in the
                        8th millineum BC the folks in Jericho were already constructing dams.
                        For the folks in Qumran I doub't if this was any mean feat, some
                        8,000 yrs later.
                        >
                        > Joe
                        >
                        > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                        > Anthropology/Paleopathology
                        >
                        > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                        > Jerusalem, Israel
                        >
                        > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...> wrote:
                        > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
                        > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead
                        Sea
                        > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 9:59 AM
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Stephen It is noticeable how selective you are in what
                        you want to
                        >
                        > draw to peoples attention. You did not, for example, inform this
                        list
                        >
                        > of either my article in DSD 14:2 (2007) in which I showed that,
                        from
                        >
                        > the archaeological data, the only buildings existing throughout
                        >
                        > seventy years of the Hasmonean period were the tower, the pottery
                        >
                        > kilns and the industrial building - no living quarters, not enough
                        >
                        > water for year round occupation, unlikely site for elite scribes. I
                        >
                        > also showed that the 'main' aqueduct and, with it, the expansion of
                        >
                        > Qumran, could not possible date earlier than 31 BCE. By merely
                        >
                        > ignoring it this fact will not go away. Nor did you mention my
                        >
                        > article in BAIAS 26 (2008) in which I suggested that during that
                        time
                        >
                        > the site was a seasonal industrial area.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > To further consolidate the dating of the 'main' aqueduct I suggest
                        >
                        > you consider the dam that was eventually built across the mouth of
                        a
                        >
                        > basin in Nahal Qumran to capture flood water. This dam must have
                        been
                        >
                        > between 4 and 5 metres high and as such the base of the walls must
                        >
                        > have been c. 3m thick (compare with the Byzantine dams associated
                        >
                        > with the low-level aqueduct at Caesarea). It had to withstand the
                        >
                        > ferocity of torrential floods and would have been a considerable
                        feet
                        >
                        > of engineering, requiring great technological know how and a large
                        >
                        > budget. The only dams from the Second Temple period of which I am
                        >
                        > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are integral
                        >
                        > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious cities,
                        >
                        > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would have
                        had
                        >
                        > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran. The Qumran
                        >
                        > dam is clearly related to the expansion of the site which required
                        >
                        > the raising of the sides of the cistern L110 (as noted by de Vaux
                        >
                        > 1973: 9)and the two pools L117 and 118. A channel overflowing from
                        >
                        > the top of the raised side of L117 takes water to the NE. Magen and
                        >
                        > Peleg have traced part of this channel running over a 'northern'
                        dump
                        >
                        > (Magen and Peleg 2007 Fig 11) which they date to 'the first half of
                        >
                        > the first century' (M and P 2007:8). When the material from
                        >
                        > this 'dump' is published it may well confirm my dating of
                        the 'main'
                        >
                        > aqueduct to c. 31 BCE.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > As an archaeologist I can only address archaeological issues with
                        >
                        > any confidence. I can make no contribuition to the dating of the
                        >
                        > Thanksgiving Scroll. However I understand it has been dated as
                        early
                        >
                        > as the 2nd century BCE (thus Eshel)or to about 40 BCE (thus Stokl)
                        a
                        >
                        > period when there is no evidence for permanent occupation at
                        Qumran.
                        >
                        > So even it is was written somewhere near the Dead Sea it's unlikely
                        >
                        > that it was at Qumran.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > David Stacey
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, goranson@ wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > A new article reports measurements of the ratio of chlorine and
                        >
                        > bromine in ink
                        >
                        > > from a Qumran Cave One manuscript and concludes that the ink was
                        >
                        > prepared with
                        >
                        > > water from or near the Dead Sea; the Qumran scroll was inscribed
                        >
                        > near the Dead
                        >
                        > > Sea.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Ira Rabin, Oliver Hahn, Timo Wolff, Admir Masic and Gisela
                        >
                        > Weinberg, "On the
                        >
                        > > Origin of the Ink of the Thanksgiving Scroll (1QHodayot a)," Dead
                        >
                        > Sea
                        >
                        > > Discoveries 16.1 (2009) 97-106.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Abstract (p. 97): "In this study we demonstrate the possibility
                        to
                        >
                        > > identify the
                        >
                        > > production area of the scrolls, coupling non-destructive
                        >
                        > quantitative analysis
                        >
                        > > of trace elements to spectroscopic investigation of the inks.
                        This
                        >
                        > approach,
                        >
                        > > that allowed us to determine the Dead Sea area as origin of
                        >
                        > 1QHodayot a, is of
                        >
                        > > general validity."
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Conclusion (p. 102) "Using the fingerprint composition of the
                        water
                        >
                        > from the
                        >
                        > > Dead Sea region we could directly link the fragment, and
                        >
                        > consequently, the
                        >
                        > > production of 1QHodayot a to the Qumran area. Furthermore, our
                        >
                        > study of
                        >
                        > > organic
                        >
                        > > components present in the carbon ink of this scroll indicates
                        that
                        >
                        > gall nuts
                        >
                        > > extracts were used in the ink preparation as early as 1st century
                        >
                        > C.E."
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Stephen Goranson
                        >
                        > > http://www.duke edu/~goranson/ Essenes_& _Others.pdf
                        >
                        > > "Others and Intra-Jewish Polemic as Reflected in Qumran Texts"
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • David Hall
                        The Nabateans built Shivtah near the Sinai border and other settlements of the Negev in the first century B.C.  There were dams and dam terraces constructed
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 28, 2009
                          The Nabateans built Shivtah near the Sinai border and other settlements of the Negev in the first century B.C.  There were dams and dam terraces constructed across valleys for agriculture and domestic water use.  The Nabateans were annexed by Rome.  Later in the fourth century Christians perhaps Nabateans who converted to Christianity had these villages as evidenced by crosses on building stones, churches, and baptismals.  There is evidence they may have continued to repair and perhaps build more dams. 
                           
                          The Romans built numerous dams including one by Nero that was 40 meters/120 feet high in Italy for his private enjoyment.
                           
                          David Q. Hall 


                          --- On Sat, 2/28/09, dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...> wrote:

                          From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
                          Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead Sea
                          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Saturday, February 28, 2009, 2:51 AM






                          So Joe, Building a dam 4 to 5 m high, with walls on average perhaps
                          2.5 m thick, perhaps with foundations cut into the bedrock, was all a
                          bit of a doddle. The fact that no trace of it has survived the floods
                          of the past 2000 years indicates the forces it had to withstand. If
                          it was all so easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all
                          over the country? The fact is that only Herod seems to have had the
                          necessary knowledge and resources which he put to use in his two
                          prestigious city water systems; for the high-level aqueduct at
                          Caesarea, and the Wadi el-Biyar dam in the Solomons Pool system
                          outside Jerusalem.
                          David Stacey

                          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, Joe Zias <joezias@... > wrote:
                          >
                          > David Stacey writes in connection to Goransons post the
                          following::The only dams from the Second Temple period of which I am
                          >
                          > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are integral
                          >
                          > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious cities,
                          >
                          > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would have
                          had
                          >
                          > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran.
                          >
                          > I would like to remind readers that a few kms up the road in the
                          8th millineum BC the folks in Jericho were already constructing dams.
                          For the folks in Qumran I doub't if this was any mean feat, some
                          8,000 yrs later.
                          >
                          > Joe
                          >
                          > Joe Zias www.joezias. com
                          > Anthropology/ Paleopathology
                          >
                          > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                          > Jerusalem, Israel
                          >
                          > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@ ...> wrote:
                          > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@ ...>
                          > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead
                          Sea
                          > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                          > Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 9:59 AM
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Stephen It is noticeable how selective you are in what
                          you want to
                          >
                          > draw to peoples attention. You did not, for example, inform this
                          list
                          >
                          > of either my article in DSD 14:2 (2007) in which I showed that,
                          from
                          >
                          > the archaeological data, the only buildings existing throughout
                          >
                          > seventy years of the Hasmonean period were the tower, the pottery
                          >
                          > kilns and the industrial building - no living quarters, not enough
                          >
                          > water for year round occupation, unlikely site for elite scribes. I
                          >
                          > also showed that the 'main' aqueduct and, with it, the expansion of
                          >
                          > Qumran, could not possible date earlier than 31 BCE. By merely
                          >
                          > ignoring it this fact will not go away. Nor did you mention my
                          >
                          > article in BAIAS 26 (2008) in which I suggested that during that
                          time
                          >
                          > the site was a seasonal industrial area.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > To further consolidate the dating of the 'main' aqueduct I suggest
                          >
                          > you consider the dam that was eventually built across the mouth of
                          a
                          >
                          > basin in Nahal Qumran to capture flood water. This dam must have
                          been
                          >
                          > between 4 and 5 metres high and as such the base of the walls must
                          >
                          > have been c. 3m thick (compare with the Byzantine dams associated
                          >
                          > with the low-level aqueduct at Caesarea). It had to withstand the
                          >
                          > ferocity of torrential floods and would have been a considerable
                          feet
                          >
                          > of engineering, requiring great technological know how and a large
                          >
                          > budget. The only dams from the Second Temple period of which I am
                          >
                          > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are integral
                          >
                          > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious cities,
                          >
                          > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would have
                          had
                          >
                          > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran. The Qumran
                          >
                          > dam is clearly related to the expansion of the site which required
                          >
                          > the raising of the sides of the cistern L110 (as noted by de Vaux
                          >
                          > 1973: 9)and the two pools L117 and 118. A channel overflowing from
                          >
                          > the top of the raised side of L117 takes water to the NE. Magen and
                          >
                          > Peleg have traced part of this channel running over a 'northern'
                          dump
                          >
                          > (Magen and Peleg 2007 Fig 11) which they date to 'the first half of
                          >
                          > the first century' (M and P 2007:8). When the material from
                          >
                          > this 'dump' is published it may well confirm my dating of
                          the 'main'
                          >
                          > aqueduct to c. 31 BCE.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > As an archaeologist I can only address archaeological issues with
                          >
                          > any confidence. I can make no contribuition to the dating of the
                          >
                          > Thanksgiving Scroll. However I understand it has been dated as
                          early
                          >
                          > as the 2nd century BCE (thus Eshel)or to about 40 BCE (thus Stokl)
                          a
                          >
                          > period when there is no evidence for permanent occupation at
                          Qumran.
                          >
                          > So even it is was written somewhere near the Dead Sea it's unlikely
                          >
                          > that it was at Qumran.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > David Stacey
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, goranson@ wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > A new article reports measurements of the ratio of chlorine and
                          >
                          > bromine in ink
                          >
                          > > from a Qumran Cave One manuscript and concludes that the ink was
                          >
                          > prepared with
                          >
                          > > water from or near the Dead Sea; the Qumran scroll was inscribed
                          >
                          > near the Dead
                          >
                          > > Sea.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Ira Rabin, Oliver Hahn, Timo Wolff, Admir Masic and Gisela
                          >
                          > Weinberg, "On the
                          >
                          > > Origin of the Ink of the Thanksgiving Scroll (1QHodayot a)," Dead
                          >
                          > Sea
                          >
                          > > Discoveries 16.1 (2009) 97-106.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Abstract (p. 97): "In this study we demonstrate the possibility
                          to
                          >
                          > > identify the
                          >
                          > > production area of the scrolls, coupling non-destructive
                          >
                          > quantitative analysis
                          >
                          > > of trace elements to spectroscopic investigation of the inks.
                          This
                          >
                          > approach,
                          >
                          > > that allowed us to determine the Dead Sea area as origin of
                          >
                          > 1QHodayot a, is of
                          >
                          > > general validity."
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Conclusion (p. 102) "Using the fingerprint composition of the
                          water
                          >
                          > from the
                          >
                          > > Dead Sea region we could directly link the fragment, and
                          >
                          > consequently, the
                          >
                          > > production of 1QHodayot a to the Qumran area. Furthermore, our
                          >
                          > study of
                          >
                          > > organic
                          >
                          > > components present in the carbon ink of this scroll indicates
                          that
                          >
                          > gall nuts
                          >
                          > > extracts were used in the ink preparation as early as 1st century
                          >
                          > C.E."
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Stephen Goranson
                          >
                          > > http://www.duke edu/~goranson/ Essenes_& _Others.pdf
                          >
                          > > "Others and Intra-Jewish Polemic as Reflected in Qumran Texts"
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >



















                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • dastacey62
                          Stephen, As the latest DSD will probably not reach CUL shelves for some time could you perhaps tell us whether 1. the authors suggest a source for the gall
                          Message 12 of 20 , Mar 1 12:04 AM
                            Stephen, As the latest DSD will probably not reach CUL shelves for
                            some time could you perhaps tell us whether 1. the authors suggest a
                            source for the gall nuts (quercus ilex are found in the Galil, but
                            I've never seen them around the Dead Sea); and 2. whether they
                            suggest that the presence of bromine and chlorine was 'accidental' or
                            was deliberately chosen because in some way it made better ink? In an
                            earlier analysis (Archaeometry 38:1 2007)of red ink from the scrolls
                            it was determined that cinnabar was used, probably imported from
                            Spain, and that "the use of cinnabar has been discovered so far only
                            in the Third Winter Palace of Herod the Great in Jericho".....

                            David Stacey

                            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, goranson@... wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > A new article reports measurements of the ratio of chlorine and
                            bromine in ink
                            > from a Qumran Cave One manuscript and concludes that the ink was
                            prepared with
                            > water from or near the Dead Sea; the Qumran scroll was inscribed
                            near the Dead
                            > Sea.
                            >
                            > Ira Rabin, Oliver Hahn, Timo Wolff, Admir Masic and Gisela
                            Weinberg, "On the
                            > Origin of the Ink of the Thanksgiving Scroll (1QHodayot a)," Dead
                            Sea
                            > Discoveries 16.1 (2009) 97-106.
                            >
                            > Abstract (p. 97): "In this study we demonstrate the possibility to
                            > identify the
                            > production area of the scrolls, coupling non-destructive
                            quantitative analysis
                            > of trace elements to spectroscopic investigation of the inks. This
                            approach,
                            > that allowed us to determine the Dead Sea area as origin of
                            1QHodayot a, is of
                            > general validity."
                            >
                            > Conclusion (p. 102) "Using the fingerprint composition of the water
                            from the
                            > Dead Sea region we could directly link the fragment, and
                            consequently, the
                            > production of 1QHodayot a to the Qumran area. Furthermore, our
                            study of
                            > organic
                            > components present in the carbon ink of this scroll indicates that
                            gall nuts
                            > extracts were used in the ink preparation as early as 1st century
                            C.E."
                            >
                            > Stephen Goranson
                            > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson/Essenes_&_Others.pdf
                            > "Others and Intra-Jewish Polemic as Reflected in Qumran Texts"
                            >
                          • dastacey62
                            Well Joe, that s odd - there are no major dams at Masada or Jericho where you say they are necessary, and in fact the only two major Second Temple dams are in
                            Message 13 of 20 , Mar 1 6:55 AM
                              Well Joe, that's odd - there are no major dams at Masada or Jericho
                              where you say they are necessary, and in fact the only two major
                              Second Temple dams are in Caesarea and Jerusalem where you say they
                              are unnecessary... curioser and curiouser

                              David Stacey

                              UK
                              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Zias" <joezias@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > David Stacey on the subject of dams in antiquity writes "If it was
                              all so
                              > easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all over the
                              country?"
                              > The answer is simple, in the desert areas where rain fall is
                              minimal as in
                              > Masada, Qumran and Jericho, dams are necessary to collect runoff
                              from higher
                              > elevations. In areas where there is adequate seasonal rainfall or
                              springs,
                              > such as Jerusalem, Caesarea, Beit Shean ect, they are unnecessary.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Joe Zias
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On
                              Behalf Of
                              > dastacey62
                              > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:51 AM
                              > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead
                              Sea
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > So Joe, Building a dam 4 to 5 m high, with walls on average perhaps
                              > 2.5 m thick, perhaps with foundations cut into the bedrock, was all
                              a
                              > bit of a doddle. The fact that no trace of it has survived the
                              floods
                              > of the past 2000 years indicates the forces it had to withstand. If
                              > it was all so easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams
                              all
                              > over the country? The fact is that only Herod seems to have had the
                              > necessary knowledge and resources which he put to use in his two
                              > prestigious city water systems; for the high-level aqueduct at
                              > Caesarea, and the Wadi el-Biyar dam in the Solomons Pool system
                              > outside Jerusalem.
                              > David Stacey
                              >
                              > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> , Joe
                              Zias
                              > <joezias@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > David Stacey writes in connection to Goransons post the
                              > following::The only dams from the Second Temple period of which I
                              am
                              > >
                              > > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are
                              integral
                              > >
                              > > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious cities,
                              > >
                              > > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would have
                              > had
                              > >
                              > > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran.
                              > >
                              > > I would like to remind readers that a few kms up the road in the
                              > 8th millineum BC the folks in Jericho were already constructing
                              dams.
                              > For the folks in Qumran I doub't if this was any mean feat, some
                              > 8,000 yrs later.
                              > >
                              > > Joe
                              > >
                              > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                              > > Anthropology/Paleopathology
                              > >
                              > > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                              > > Jerusalem, Israel
                              > >
                              > > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@> wrote:
                              > > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@>
                              > > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the
                              Dead
                              > Sea
                              > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 9:59 AM
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Stephen It is noticeable how selective you are in what
                              > you want to
                              > >
                              > > draw to peoples attention. You did not, for example, inform this
                              > list
                              > >
                              > > of either my article in DSD 14:2 (2007) in which I showed that,
                              > from
                              > >
                              > > the archaeological data, the only buildings existing throughout
                              > >
                              > > seventy years of the Hasmonean period were the tower, the pottery
                              > >
                              > > kilns and the industrial building - no living quarters, not
                              enough
                              > >
                              > > water for year round occupation, unlikely site for elite scribes.
                              I
                              > >
                              > > also showed that the 'main' aqueduct and, with it, the expansion
                              of
                              > >
                              > > Qumran, could not possible date earlier than 31 BCE. By merely
                              > >
                              > > ignoring it this fact will not go away. Nor did you mention my
                              > >
                              > > article in BAIAS 26 (2008) in which I suggested that during that
                              > time
                              > >
                              > > the site was a seasonal industrial area.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > To further consolidate the dating of the 'main' aqueduct I
                              suggest
                              > >
                              > > you consider the dam that was eventually built across the mouth
                              of
                              > a
                              > >
                              > > basin in Nahal Qumran to capture flood water. This dam must have
                              > been
                              > >
                              > > between 4 and 5 metres high and as such the base of the walls
                              must
                              > >
                              > > have been c. 3m thick (compare with the Byzantine dams associated
                              > >
                              > > with the low-level aqueduct at Caesarea). It had to withstand the
                              > >
                              > > ferocity of torrential floods and would have been a considerable
                              > feet
                              > >
                              > > of engineering, requiring great technological know how and a
                              large
                              > >
                              > > budget. The only dams from the Second Temple period of which I am
                              > >
                              > > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are
                              integral
                              > >
                              > > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious cities,
                              > >
                              > > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would have
                              > had
                              > >
                              > > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran. The Qumran
                              > >
                              > > dam is clearly related to the expansion of the site which
                              required
                              > >
                              > > the raising of the sides of the cistern L110 (as noted by de Vaux
                              > >
                              > > 1973: 9)and the two pools L117 and 118. A channel overflowing
                              from
                              > >
                              > > the top of the raised side of L117 takes water to the NE. Magen
                              and
                              > >
                              > > Peleg have traced part of this channel running over a 'northern'
                              > dump
                              > >
                              > > (Magen and Peleg 2007 Fig 11) which they date to 'the first half
                              of
                              > >
                              > > the first century' (M and P 2007:8). When the material from
                              > >
                              > > this 'dump' is published it may well confirm my dating of
                              > the 'main'
                              > >
                              > > aqueduct to c. 31 BCE.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > As an archaeologist I can only address archaeological issues with
                              > >
                              > > any confidence. I can make no contribuition to the dating of the
                              > >
                              > > Thanksgiving Scroll. However I understand it has been dated as
                              > early
                              > >
                              > > as the 2nd century BCE (thus Eshel)or to about 40 BCE (thus
                              Stokl)
                              > a
                              > >
                              > > period when there is no evidence for permanent occupation at
                              > Qumran.
                              > >
                              > > So even it is was written somewhere near the Dead Sea it's
                              unlikely
                              > >
                              > > that it was at Qumran.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > David Stacey
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, goranson@ wrote:
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > > A new article reports measurements of the ratio of chlorine and
                              > >
                              > > bromine in ink
                              > >
                              > > > from a Qumran Cave One manuscript and concludes that the ink
                              was
                              > >
                              > > prepared with
                              > >
                              > > > water from or near the Dead Sea; the Qumran scroll was
                              inscribed
                              > >
                              > > near the Dead
                              > >
                              > > > Sea.
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > > Ira Rabin, Oliver Hahn, Timo Wolff, Admir Masic and Gisela
                              > >
                              > > Weinberg, "On the
                              > >
                              > > > Origin of the Ink of the Thanksgiving Scroll (1QHodayot a),"
                              Dead
                              > >
                              > > Sea
                              > >
                              > > > Discoveries 16.1 (2009) 97-106.
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > > Abstract (p. 97): "In this study we demonstrate the possibility
                              > to
                              > >
                              > > > identify the
                              > >
                              > > > production area of the scrolls, coupling non-destructive
                              > >
                              > > quantitative analysis
                              > >
                              > > > of trace elements to spectroscopic investigation of the inks.
                              > This
                              > >
                              > > approach,
                              > >
                              > > > that allowed us to determine the Dead Sea area as origin of
                              > >
                              > > 1QHodayot a, is of
                              > >
                              > > > general validity."
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > > Conclusion (p. 102) "Using the fingerprint composition of the
                              > water
                              > >
                              > > from the
                              > >
                              > > > Dead Sea region we could directly link the fragment, and
                              > >
                              > > consequently, the
                              > >
                              > > > production of 1QHodayot a to the Qumran area. Furthermore, our
                              > >
                              > > study of
                              > >
                              > > > organic
                              > >
                              > > > components present in the carbon ink of this scroll indicates
                              > that
                              > >
                              > > gall nuts
                              > >
                              > > > extracts were used in the ink preparation as early as 1st
                              century
                              > >
                              > > C.E."
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > > Stephen Goranson
                              > >
                              > > > http://www.duke edu/~goranson/ Essenes_& _Others.pdf
                              > >
                              > > > "Others and Intra-Jewish Polemic as Reflected in Qumran Texts"
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • theodc25
                              Quite close to Qumran, is the Buqe ah Valley which has substantial evidence of intensive agricultural production including dams, terraces, and walls built for
                              Message 14 of 20 , Mar 1 4:02 PM
                                Quite close to Qumran, is the Buqe'ah Valley which has substantial
                                evidence of intensive agricultural production including dams,
                                terraces, and walls built for pools. The major sites in valley are
                                Khirbet Abu Tabaq, Khirbet es-Samrah, and Khirbet el-Maqari partially
                                excavated by Cross and Milik, and further research was done by Stager.
                                The sites, terracing, and dams are all dated around the 8th/7th
                                century BCE based on lmlk jars and other pottery found at the sites.

                                It has been suggested that much of this area was reused in the 3rd
                                cent BCE-1st cent CE, because of the close proximity of Hyrcania, a
                                Roman road running through the valley to Qumran, and some late
                                Hellenistic/early Roman pottery that was found at the forts. Also I
                                thought there were dams around Masada?

                                Owen Chesnut
                                Ph.D. Candidate
                                Andrews University




                                --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "dastacey62" <DAVID.STACEY63@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Well Joe, that's odd - there are no major dams at Masada or Jericho
                                > where you say they are necessary, and in fact the only two major
                                > Second Temple dams are in Caesarea and Jerusalem where you say they
                                > are unnecessary... curioser and curiouser
                                >
                                > David Stacey
                                >
                                > UK
                                > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Zias" <joezias@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > David Stacey on the subject of dams in antiquity writes "If it was
                                > all so
                                > > easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all over the
                                > country?"
                                > > The answer is simple, in the desert areas where rain fall is
                                > minimal as in
                                > > Masada, Qumran and Jericho, dams are necessary to collect runoff
                                > from higher
                                > > elevations. In areas where there is adequate seasonal rainfall or
                                > springs,
                                > > such as Jerusalem, Caesarea, Beit Shean ect, they are unnecessary.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Joe Zias
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On
                                > Behalf Of
                                > > dastacey62
                                > > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:51 AM
                                > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead
                                > Sea
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > So Joe, Building a dam 4 to 5 m high, with walls on average perhaps
                                > > 2.5 m thick, perhaps with foundations cut into the bedrock, was all
                                > a
                                > > bit of a doddle. The fact that no trace of it has survived the
                                > floods
                                > > of the past 2000 years indicates the forces it had to withstand. If
                                > > it was all so easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams
                                > all
                                > > over the country? The fact is that only Herod seems to have had the
                                > > necessary knowledge and resources which he put to use in his two
                                > > prestigious city water systems; for the high-level aqueduct at
                                > > Caesarea, and the Wadi el-Biyar dam in the Solomons Pool system
                                > > outside Jerusalem.
                                > > David Stacey
                                > >
                                > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> , Joe
                                > Zias
                                > > <joezias@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > David Stacey writes in connection to Goransons post the
                                > > following::The only dams from the Second Temple period of which I
                                > am
                                > > >
                                > > > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are
                                > integral
                                > > >
                                > > > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious cities,
                                > > >
                                > > > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would have
                                > > had
                                > > >
                                > > > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran.
                                > > >
                                > > > I would like to remind readers that a few kms up the road in the
                                > > 8th millineum BC the folks in Jericho were already constructing
                                > dams.
                                > > For the folks in Qumran I doub't if this was any mean feat, some
                                > > 8,000 yrs later.
                                > > >
                                > > > Joe
                                > > >
                                > > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                                > > > Anthropology/Paleopathology
                                > > >
                                > > > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                                > > > Jerusalem, Israel
                                > > >
                              • dastacey62
                                Most of these dams are, are they not, on a fairly minor scale and would not have had to withstand the sort of terrific force present in flash floods as they
                                Message 15 of 20 , Mar 3 1:24 AM
                                  Most of these dams are, are they not, on a fairly minor scale and
                                  would not have had to withstand the sort of terrific force present
                                  in flash floods as they thunder down Nahal Qumran. The power of such
                                  flash floods is an awesome sight. The dam at Qumran would have been 4
                                  or 5 metres high and would have needed to have walls at least 3m
                                  thick at the base. Yet it probably needed some sort of sluice system
                                  to, if necessary, relieve the pressure of the initial torrent. This
                                  required considerable hydrological knowledge and was not your average
                                  agricultural installation.

                                  David Stacey
                                  -
                                  -- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "theodc25" <chesnut@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Quite close to Qumran, is the Buqe'ah Valley which has substantial
                                  > evidence of intensive agricultural production including dams,
                                  > terraces, and walls built for pools. The major sites in valley are
                                  > Khirbet Abu Tabaq, Khirbet es-Samrah, and Khirbet el-Maqari
                                  partially
                                  > excavated by Cross and Milik, and further research was done by
                                  Stager.
                                  > The sites, terracing, and dams are all dated around the 8th/7th
                                  > century BCE based on lmlk jars and other pottery found at the
                                  sites.
                                  >
                                  > It has been suggested that much of this area was reused in the 3rd
                                  > cent BCE-1st cent CE, because of the close proximity of Hyrcania, a
                                  > Roman road running through the valley to Qumran, and some late
                                  > Hellenistic/early Roman pottery that was found at the forts. Also I
                                  > thought there were dams around Masada?
                                  >
                                  > Owen Chesnut
                                  > Ph.D. Candidate
                                  > Andrews University
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "dastacey62" <DAVID.STACEY63@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Well Joe, that's odd - there are no major dams at Masada or
                                  Jericho
                                  > > where you say they are necessary, and in fact the only two major
                                  > > Second Temple dams are in Caesarea and Jerusalem where you say
                                  they
                                  > > are unnecessary... curioser and curiouser
                                  > >
                                  > > David Stacey
                                  > >
                                  > > UK
                                  > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Zias" <joezias@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > David Stacey on the subject of dams in antiquity writes "If it
                                  was
                                  > > all so
                                  > > > easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all over
                                  the
                                  > > country?"
                                  > > > The answer is simple, in the desert areas where rain fall is
                                  > > minimal as in
                                  > > > Masada, Qumran and Jericho, dams are necessary to collect
                                  runoff
                                  > > from higher
                                  > > > elevations. In areas where there is adequate seasonal rainfall
                                  or
                                  > > springs,
                                  > > > such as Jerusalem, Caesarea, Beit Shean ect, they are
                                  unnecessary.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Joe Zias
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  > > Behalf Of
                                  > > > dastacey62
                                  > > > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:51 AM
                                  > > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the
                                  Dead
                                  > > Sea
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > So Joe, Building a dam 4 to 5 m high, with walls on average
                                  perhaps
                                  > > > 2.5 m thick, perhaps with foundations cut into the bedrock, was
                                  all
                                  > > a
                                  > > > bit of a doddle. The fact that no trace of it has survived the
                                  > > floods
                                  > > > of the past 2000 years indicates the forces it had to
                                  withstand. If
                                  > > > it was all so easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build
                                  dams
                                  > > all
                                  > > > over the country? The fact is that only Herod seems to have had
                                  the
                                  > > > necessary knowledge and resources which he put to use in his
                                  two
                                  > > > prestigious city water systems; for the high-level aqueduct at
                                  > > > Caesarea, and the Wadi el-Biyar dam in the Solomons Pool system
                                  > > > outside Jerusalem.
                                  > > > David Stacey
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                  Joe
                                  > > Zias
                                  > > > <joezias@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > David Stacey writes in connection to Goransons post the
                                  > > > following::The only dams from the Second Temple period of which
                                  I
                                  > > am
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are
                                  > > integral
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious
                                  cities,
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would
                                  have
                                  > > > had
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > I would like to remind readers that a few kms up the road in
                                  the
                                  > > > 8th millineum BC the folks in Jericho were already constructing
                                  > > dams.
                                  > > > For the folks in Qumran I doub't if this was any mean feat,
                                  some
                                  > > > 8,000 yrs later.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Joe
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                                  > > > > Anthropology/Paleopathology
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                                  > > > > Jerusalem, Israel
                                  > > > >
                                  >
                                • JEFFREY A BLAKELY
                                  Good Morning Barrage dams feeding sluices and watering fields were a bit of a doodle by even 1200 BC in Yemen. If you look around Saba and Qataban evidence
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Mar 3 5:52 AM
                                    Good Morning

                                    Barrage dams feeding sluices and watering fields were a bit of a "doodle" by even 1200 BC in Yemen. If you look around Saba and Qataban evidence for them is all over the place in remnants and in agricultural fields built up by the silt in the runoff produced during floods. If you want a good example see the Marib Dam, a truly massive dam capable of taking on an incredible deluge and a dam that was in use for over a millennium. It is hard to believe that the knowledge did not reach the other end of the trade route.

                                    Jeffrey A. Blakely
                                    Madison, WI

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
                                    Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 4:04 am
                                    Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead Sea
                                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com


                                    > Most of these dams are, are they not, on a fairly minor scale and
                                    > would not have had to withstand the sort of terrific force present
                                    > in flash floods as they thunder down Nahal Qumran. The power of such
                                    >
                                    > flash floods is an awesome sight. The dam at Qumran would have been 4
                                    >
                                    > or 5 metres high and would have needed to have walls at least 3m
                                    > thick at the base. Yet it probably needed some sort of sluice system
                                    >
                                    > to, if necessary, relieve the pressure of the initial torrent. This
                                    > required considerable hydrological knowledge and was not your average
                                    >
                                    > agricultural installation.
                                    >
                                    > David Stacey
                                    > -
                                    > -- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "theodc25" <chesnut@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Quite close to Qumran, is the Buqe'ah Valley which has substantial
                                    > > evidence of intensive agricultural production including dams,
                                    > > terraces, and walls built for pools. The major sites in valley are
                                    > > Khirbet Abu Tabaq, Khirbet es-Samrah, and Khirbet el-Maqari
                                    > partially
                                    > > excavated by Cross and Milik, and further research was done by
                                    > Stager.
                                    > > The sites, terracing, and dams are all dated around the 8th/7th
                                    > > century BCE based on lmlk jars and other pottery found at the
                                    > sites.
                                    > >
                                    > > It has been suggested that much of this area was reused in the 3rd
                                    > > cent BCE-1st cent CE, because of the close proximity of Hyrcania, a
                                    > > Roman road running through the valley to Qumran, and some late
                                    > > Hellenistic/early Roman pottery that was found at the forts. Also
                                    > I
                                    > > thought there were dams around Masada?
                                    > >
                                    > > Owen Chesnut
                                    > > Ph.D. Candidate
                                    > > Andrews University
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "dastacey62" <DAVID.STACEY63@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Well Joe, that's odd - there are no major dams at Masada or
                                    > Jericho
                                    > > > where you say they are necessary, and in fact the only two major
                                    >
                                    > > > Second Temple dams are in Caesarea and Jerusalem where you say
                                    > they
                                    > > > are unnecessary... curioser and curiouser
                                    > > >
                                    > > > David Stacey
                                    > > >
                                    > > > UK
                                    > > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Zias" <joezias@> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > David Stacey on the subject of dams in antiquity writes "If it
                                    >
                                    > was
                                    > > > all so
                                    > > > > easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all over
                                    > the
                                    > > > country?"
                                    > > > > The answer is simple, in the desert areas where rain fall is
                                    > > > minimal as in
                                    > > > > Masada, Qumran and Jericho, dams are necessary to collect
                                    > runoff
                                    > > > from higher
                                    > > > > elevations. In areas where there is adequate seasonal rainfall
                                    >
                                    > or
                                    > > > springs,
                                    > > > > such as Jerusalem, Caesarea, Beit Shean ect, they are
                                    > unnecessary.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Joe Zias
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On
                                    > > > Behalf Of
                                    > > > > dastacey62
                                    > > > > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:51 AM
                                    > > > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the
                                    > Dead
                                    > > > Sea
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > So Joe, Building a dam 4 to 5 m high, with walls on average
                                    > perhaps
                                    > > > > 2.5 m thick, perhaps with foundations cut into the bedrock, was
                                    >
                                    > all
                                    > > > a
                                    > > > > bit of a doddle. The fact that no trace of it has survived the
                                    >
                                    > > > floods
                                    > > > > of the past 2000 years indicates the forces it had to
                                    > withstand. If
                                    > > > > it was all so easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build
                                    > dams
                                    > > > all
                                    > > > > over the country? The fact is that only Herod seems to have had
                                    >
                                    > the
                                    > > > > necessary knowledge and resources which he put to use in his
                                    > two
                                    > > > > prestigious city water systems; for the high-level aqueduct at
                                    >
                                    > > > > Caesarea, and the Wadi el-Biyar dam in the Solomons Pool system
                                    >
                                    > > > > outside Jerusalem.
                                    > > > > David Stacey
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com < ,
                                    > Joe
                                    > > > Zias
                                    > > > > <joezias@> wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > David Stacey writes in connection to Goransons post the
                                    > > > > following::The only dams from the Second Temple period of which
                                    >
                                    > I
                                    > > > am
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are
                                    > > > integral
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious
                                    > cities,
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would
                                    > have
                                    > > > > had
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I would like to remind readers that a few kms up the road in
                                    >
                                    > the
                                    > > > > 8th millineum BC the folks in Jericho were already constructing
                                    >
                                    > > > dams.
                                    > > > > For the folks in Qumran I doub't if this was any mean feat,
                                    > some
                                    > > > > 8,000 yrs later.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Joe
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                                    > > > > > Anthropology/Paleopathology
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                                    > > > > > Jerusalem, Israel
                                    > > > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • dastacey62
                                    Of course barrage dams existed in Judea. The point that I m making, if it needs spelling out, is that all of the major dams requiring considerable know-how
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Mar 3 7:51 AM
                                      Of course barrage dams existed in Judea. The point that I'm making,
                                      if it needs spelling out, is that all of the major dams requiring
                                      considerable know-how and huge resources were instigated by the state
                                      or the temple. The construction of the dam at Qumran and of the rock-
                                      cut channel required the sort of labour and financial resources,
                                      technical expertise and determination demonstrated by Herod in other
                                      of his building projects and should be associated with his expansion
                                      of the settlement in 31 BCE. The recent excavations of Magen and
                                      Peleg would appear to confirm this date.

                                      David Stacey
                                      UK

                                      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, JEFFREY A BLAKELY <jblakely@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Good Morning
                                      >
                                      > Barrage dams feeding sluices and watering fields were a bit of
                                      a "doodle" by even 1200 BC in Yemen. If you look around Saba and
                                      Qataban evidence for them is all over the place in remnants and in
                                      agricultural fields built up by the silt in the runoff produced
                                      during floods. If you want a good example see the Marib Dam, a truly
                                      massive dam capable of taking on an incredible deluge and a dam that
                                      was in use for over a millennium. It is hard to believe that the
                                      knowledge did not reach the other end of the trade route.
                                      >
                                      > Jeffrey A. Blakely
                                      > Madison, WI
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
                                      > Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 4:04 am
                                      > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead
                                      Sea
                                      > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > Most of these dams are, are they not, on a fairly minor scale and
                                      > > would not have had to withstand the sort of terrific force
                                      present
                                      > > in flash floods as they thunder down Nahal Qumran. The power of
                                      such
                                      > >
                                      > > flash floods is an awesome sight. The dam at Qumran would have
                                      been 4
                                      > >
                                      > > or 5 metres high and would have needed to have walls at least 3m
                                      > > thick at the base. Yet it probably needed some sort of sluice
                                      system
                                      > >
                                      > > to, if necessary, relieve the pressure of the initial torrent.
                                      This
                                      > > required considerable hydrological knowledge and was not your
                                      average
                                      > >
                                      > > agricultural installation.
                                      > >
                                      > > David Stacey
                                      > > -
                                      > > -- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "theodc25" <chesnut@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Quite close to Qumran, is the Buqe'ah Valley which has
                                      substantial
                                      > > > evidence of intensive agricultural production including dams,
                                      > > > terraces, and walls built for pools. The major sites in
                                      valley are
                                      > > > Khirbet Abu Tabaq, Khirbet es-Samrah, and Khirbet el-Maqari
                                      > > partially
                                      > > > excavated by Cross and Milik, and further research was done by
                                      > > Stager.
                                      > > > The sites, terracing, and dams are all dated around the
                                      8th/7th
                                      > > > century BCE based on lmlk jars and other pottery found at the
                                      > > sites.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > It has been suggested that much of this area was reused in the
                                      3rd
                                      > > > cent BCE-1st cent CE, because of the close proximity of
                                      Hyrcania, a
                                      > > > Roman road running through the valley to Qumran, and some late
                                      > > > Hellenistic/early Roman pottery that was found at the forts.
                                      Also
                                      > > I
                                      > > > thought there were dams around Masada?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Owen Chesnut
                                      > > > Ph.D. Candidate
                                      > > > Andrews University
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "dastacey62" <DAVID.STACEY63@>
                                      wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Well Joe, that's odd - there are no major dams at Masada or
                                      > > Jericho
                                      > > > > where you say they are necessary, and in fact the only two
                                      major
                                      > >
                                      > > > > Second Temple dams are in Caesarea and Jerusalem where you
                                      say
                                      > > they
                                      > > > > are unnecessary... curioser and curiouser
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > David Stacey
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > UK
                                      > > > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Zias" <joezias@> wrote:
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > David Stacey on the subject of dams in antiquity
                                      writes "If it
                                      > >
                                      > > was
                                      > > > > all so
                                      > > > > > easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all
                                      over
                                      > > the
                                      > > > > country?"
                                      > > > > > The answer is simple, in the desert areas where rain fall
                                      is
                                      > > > > minimal as in
                                      > > > > > Masada, Qumran and Jericho, dams are necessary to collect
                                      > > runoff
                                      > > > > from higher
                                      > > > > > elevations. In areas where there is adequate seasonal
                                      rainfall
                                      > >
                                      > > or
                                      > > > > springs,
                                      > > > > > such as Jerusalem, Caesarea, Beit Shean ect, they are
                                      > > unnecessary.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Joe Zias
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com]
                                      On
                                      > > > > Behalf Of
                                      > > > > > dastacey62
                                      > > > > > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:51 AM
                                      > > > > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > > > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near
                                      the
                                      > > Dead
                                      > > > > Sea
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > So Joe, Building a dam 4 to 5 m high, with walls on
                                      average
                                      > > perhaps
                                      > > > > > 2.5 m thick, perhaps with foundations cut into the
                                      bedrock, was
                                      > >
                                      > > all
                                      > > > > a
                                      > > > > > bit of a doddle. The fact that no trace of it has survived
                                      the
                                      > >
                                      > > > > floods
                                      > > > > > of the past 2000 years indicates the forces it had to
                                      > > withstand. If
                                      > > > > > it was all so easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry
                                      build
                                      > > dams
                                      > > > > all
                                      > > > > > over the country? The fact is that only Herod seems to
                                      have had
                                      > >
                                      > > the
                                      > > > > > necessary knowledge and resources which he put to use in
                                      his
                                      > > two
                                      > > > > > prestigious city water systems; for the high-level
                                      aqueduct at
                                      > >
                                      > > > > > Caesarea, and the Wadi el-Biyar dam in the Solomons Pool
                                      system
                                      > >
                                      > > > > > outside Jerusalem.
                                      > > > > > David Stacey
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com < ,
                                      > > Joe
                                      > > > > Zias
                                      > > > > > <joezias@> wrote:
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > David Stacey writes in connection to Goransons post the
                                      > > > > > following::The only dams from the Second Temple period of
                                      which
                                      > >
                                      > > I
                                      > > > > am
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and
                                      are
                                      > > > > integral
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > parts of the water systems of two of his most
                                      prestigious
                                      > > cities,
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither
                                      would
                                      > > have
                                      > > > > > had
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > I would like to remind readers that a few kms up the
                                      road in
                                      > >
                                      > > the
                                      > > > > > 8th millineum BC the folks in Jericho were already
                                      constructing
                                      > >
                                      > > > > dams.
                                      > > > > > For the folks in Qumran I doub't if this was any mean
                                      feat,
                                      > > some
                                      > > > > > 8,000 yrs later.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Joe
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                                      > > > > > > Anthropology/Paleopathology
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                                      > > > > > > Jerusalem, Israel
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • JEFFREY A BLAKELY
                                      Well, I guess the point I wish to make is that a truly major water project, such as the aqueduct system at Caesarea or the Marib dam, certainly would be state
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Mar 3 8:48 AM
                                        Well, I guess the point I wish to make is that a truly major water project, such as the aqueduct system at Caesarea or the Marib dam, certainly would be state supported. One the other hand a small barrage dam and channel on a small wadi like at Qumran hardly rises to that level no matter how much force may be coming down the channel on occasion. The technology had been around for a long time.

                                        Jeff Blakely
                                        Madison, Wisconsin

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
                                        Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 9:52 am
                                        Subject: [ANE-2] Re: daming [formerly ink from a Dead Sea Scroll ...]
                                        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com


                                        > Of course barrage dams existed in Judea. The point that I'm making,
                                        > if it needs spelling out, is that all of the major dams requiring
                                        > considerable know-how and huge resources were instigated by the state
                                        >
                                        > or the temple. The construction of the dam at Qumran and of the rock-
                                        > cut channel required the sort of labour and financial resources,
                                        > technical expertise and determination demonstrated by Herod in other
                                        >
                                        > of his building projects and should be associated with his expansion
                                        >
                                        > of the settlement in 31 BCE. The recent excavations of Magen and
                                        > Peleg would appear to confirm this date.
                                        >
                                        > David Stacey
                                        > UK
                                        >
                                        > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, JEFFREY A BLAKELY <jblakely@...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Good Morning
                                        > >
                                        > > Barrage dams feeding sluices and watering fields were a bit of
                                        > a "doodle" by even 1200 BC in Yemen. If you look around Saba and
                                        > Qataban evidence for them is all over the place in remnants and in
                                        > agricultural fields built up by the silt in the runoff produced
                                        > during floods. If you want a good example see the Marib Dam, a truly
                                        >
                                        > massive dam capable of taking on an incredible deluge and a dam that
                                        >
                                        > was in use for over a millennium. It is hard to believe that the
                                        > knowledge did not reach the other end of the trade route.
                                        > >
                                        > > Jeffrey A. Blakely
                                        > > Madison, WI
                                      • dastacey62
                                        In June 2007 I visited the site of the dam a couple of weeks after a particularly ferocious flood had cleaned out the whole basin down to bedrock (and killed
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Mar 4 1:02 AM
                                          In June 2007 I visited the site of the dam a couple of weeks after a particularly ferocious flood had cleaned out the whole basin down to bedrock (and killed two abseilers lower down the wadi). The entrance to the aqueduct some 4 or 5 metres higher was completely inaccessible, not only to an old fart like myself, but also to a young and agile PhD student I was showing around. How exactly the dam was built is hard to reconstruct. Presumably the stones were quarried in the basin itself but there was little room for a ramp to get them to the upper courses of the dam - I know I wouldn't have liked to have been one of the labourers involved - perhaps as it's apparently so insignificant a construction project you have ideas as to how it was built?

                                          You accept that Caesarea was state supported. Owen Chesnut has mentioned barrages around Hyrcania and Masada, both building projects of Herod, who, incidentally, liked Jericho so much that he built himself three different palaces there, increasing the availablilty of water to them by extending the Hasmonean Na'aran aqueduct to take in the waters of Ein el-Auja some 14 kms to the north which is the same distance as Qumran is to the south. It would seem that Qumran was just a part of his Jericho estate and inter-connected with his other building projects. And archaeologically the date of the dam, which most logically was built together with the so-called- 'main' aqueduct system, can be no earlier than 31 BCE (see my article in DSD 14:2 (2007) - that's 'Dead Sea Discoveries' for those who find these acronyms obscure). This dating will probably be confirmed when the results of Magen and Peleg's excavations (even the preliminary publication was not available to me at the time I was writing the DSD article)are finally published (see Magen and Peleg 2007 p.8 amd fig 11).

                                          Which takes us back all the way to the start of this correspondence when I asked how a scroll dated by some as early as the second century BCE could have been written in Qumran at a time when there was no possibility of year round occupation?

                                          David Stacey


                                          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, JEFFREY A BLAKELY <jblakely@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Well, I guess the point I wish to make is that a truly major water project, such as the aqueduct system at Caesarea or the Marib dam, certainly would be state supported. One the other hand a small barrage dam and channel on a small wadi like at Qumran hardly rises to that level no matter how much force may be coming down the channel on occasion. The technology had been around for a long time.
                                          >
                                          > Jeff Blakely
                                          > Madison, Wisconsin
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
                                          > Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 9:52 am
                                          > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: daming [formerly ink from a Dead Sea Scroll ...]
                                          > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > Of course barrage dams existed in Judea. The point that I'm making,
                                          > > if it needs spelling out, is that all of the major dams requiring
                                          > > considerable know-how and huge resources were instigated by the state
                                          > >
                                          > > or the temple. The construction of the dam at Qumran and of the rock-
                                          > > cut channel required the sort of labour and financial resources,
                                          > > technical expertise and determination demonstrated by Herod in other
                                          > >
                                          > > of his building projects and should be associated with his expansion
                                          > >
                                          > > of the settlement in 31 BCE. The recent excavations of Magen and
                                          > > Peleg would appear to confirm this date.
                                          > >
                                          > > David Stacey
                                          > > UK
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, JEFFREY A BLAKELY <jblakely@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Good Morning
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Barrage dams feeding sluices and watering fields were a bit of
                                          > > a "doodle" by even 1200 BC in Yemen. If you look around Saba and
                                          > > Qataban evidence for them is all over the place in remnants and in
                                          > > agricultural fields built up by the silt in the runoff produced
                                          > > during floods. If you want a good example see the Marib Dam, a truly
                                          > >
                                          > > massive dam capable of taking on an incredible deluge and a dam that
                                          > >
                                          > > was in use for over a millennium. It is hard to believe that the
                                          > > knowledge did not reach the other end of the trade route.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Jeffrey A. Blakely
                                          > > > Madison, WI
                                          >
                                        • JEFFREY A BLAKELY
                                          Clearly there is nothing at the Qumran dam site that identifies Herod as the builder, or maybe better the conscriptor since I doubt he personally built it.
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Mar 4 7:28 AM
                                            Clearly there is nothing at the Qumran dam site that identifies Herod as the builder, or maybe better the conscriptor since I doubt he personally built it. One can certainly reconstruct a Herodian construction view from the extant evidence, just as one can reconstruct a sectarian construction view from that same evidence. We may differ on which is more likely. I will certainly agree with David, however, "I know I wouldn't have liked to have been one of the labourers involved." Its hot down there. On the method of construction, I would guess slowly and carefully during a dry season lest it be washed away. Beyond that we have no evidence.

                                            Best wishes,
                                            Jeffrey A. Blakely
                                            Madison, WI


                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
                                            Date: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 3:03 am
                                            Subject: [ANE-2] Re: daming [formerly ink from a Dead Sea Scroll ...]
                                            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com


                                            > In June 2007 I visited the site of the dam a couple of weeks after a
                                            > particularly ferocious flood had cleaned out the whole basin down to
                                            > bedrock (and killed two abseilers lower down the wadi). The entrance
                                            > to the aqueduct some 4 or 5 metres higher was completely inaccessible,
                                            > not only to an old fart like myself, but also to a young and agile PhD
                                            > student I was showing around. How exactly the dam was built is hard to
                                            > reconstruct. Presumably the stones were quarried in the basin itself
                                            > but there was little room for a ramp to get them to the upper courses
                                            > of the dam - I know I wouldn't have liked to have been one of the
                                            > labourers involved - perhaps as it's apparently so insignificant a
                                            > construction project you have ideas as to how it was built?
                                            >
                                            >
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