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Re: SV: [ANE-2] Aphek, at the head of the Yarkon River

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  • eliot braun
    There should be some answers to these questions with the publication of Aphek-Antipatris II, now in press at The Institute of Archaeology, Tel Aviv U.
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 4, 2009
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      There should be some answers to these questions with the publication of Aphek-Antipatris II, now in press at The Institute of Archaeology, Tel Aviv U. Hopefully it will appear in 2009.


      Eliot Braun, Ph D
      Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
      Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
      PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
      Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096

      --- On Wed, 2/4/09, Thomas L. Thompson <tlt@...> wrote:

      From: Thomas L. Thompson <tlt@...>
      Subject: SV: [ANE-2] Aphek, at the head of the Yarkon River
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, February 4, 2009, 2:41 AM






      Dear David,
      Your threefold statement concerning the destruction of Aphek puzzles me: 1) Am I correct in assuming that what you refer to by Aphek's "multiple" destructions was that there was found evidence of destruction in multiple strata? If that is correct, what is the reconstructed chronology for the earliest and the latest strata where evidence of destruction was found? 2) Why do you say that they were theoretically destroyed in the middle of the 11th century? Is it the chronology which is theoretical and, if so, what is the theoretical basis? Or is it the destruction that is theoretical and does that mean that there isn't any clear evidence for such a destruction? 3) Why is it presumably by Israel? Is this based on 1-2. Samuel? And if so, how did the author know what happened in the 11th century? Or is it based on archaeological evidence and one must presume that they found a jawbone of an ass in the ruins? Or...???
      Thomas

      Thomas L. Thompson
      Professor emeritus
      University of Copenhagen


      David Hall wrote:
      "Aphek was destroyed multiple times and theoretically destroyed in the middle fo the 11th century, presumably by Israel."

      ____________ _________ _________ __

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • David Hall
      The MBI city was reported destroyed, no exact details as to when.  There were a few Hyksos (MBII) rermains reported then the place was abandoned.  Thutmosis
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 4, 2009
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        The MBI city was reported destroyed, no exact details as to when.  There were a few Hyksos (MBII) rermains reported then the place was abandoned.  Thutmosis III campaigned in the area during the LBA.  Am not sure of the exact number of destructions.  The publication I saw was a brief summary of work there without in depth details.  If there were two destructions, then there were numerous destructions as numerous means more than one in this case.  
         
        The title about Aphek I found in the Library of Congress is rare.  In order to get a United States copyright a person had to submit a book to the library.  There is little space left and many books were being diverted to off-site storage or not collected for lack of space.  The library is non-circulating, but they have a photocopy service for remote users.  I read there are 39 million printed publications in their collection.  It is the largest library in the world.  
         
        Will probably need the Aphek II publication for a better summary of discoveries at Aphek.  
         
        As for the question about Sea Peoples north of Tel Qasille/Yarkon River, yes the Egyptian records recorded the Tjeker there in the 11th century account of Wenamun (reign of Ramesses XI).  There is an antiquities museum in an abandoned glass factory at Tel Dor; the harbor where the Egyptian Wenamun supposidely traveled to.  I took a tour of the place in 2006 while some universities were digging at the top of the Tel.  An Israeli historian told me the pottery I was looking at was not Aegean, but locally made imitations of Eastern Med. type pottery.  There were two theories cited about Beth Shean in a work by A. Mazar.  One theory was that the Philistines were at Beth Shean during the 11th century, the other theory was that they were not.  I do not have the scope to be able to determine whose suspicion is right.         
         
        David Q. Hall
        dqhall59@...

        --- On Wed, 2/4/09, eliot braun <eliotbraun@...> wrote:

        From: eliot braun <eliotbraun@...>
        Subject: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Aphek, at the head of the Yarkon River
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, February 4, 2009, 6:38 AM






        There should be some answers to these questions with the publication of Aphek-Antipatris II, now in press at The Institute of Archaeology, Tel Aviv U. Hopefully it will appear in 2009.

        Eliot Braun, Ph D
        Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
        Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
        PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
        Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096

        --- On Wed, 2/4/09, Thomas L. Thompson <tlt@.... dk> wrote:

        From: Thomas L. Thompson <tlt@.... dk>
        Subject: SV: [ANE-2] Aphek, at the head of the Yarkon River
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
        Date: Wednesday, February 4, 2009, 2:41 AM

        Dear David,
        Your threefold statement concerning the destruction of Aphek puzzles me: 1) Am I correct in assuming that what you refer to by Aphek's "multiple" destructions was that there was found evidence of destruction in multiple strata? If that is correct, what is the reconstructed chronology for the earliest and the latest strata where evidence of destruction was found? 2) Why do you say that they were theoretically destroyed in the middle of the 11th century? Is it the chronology which is theoretical and, if so, what is the theoretical basis? Or is it the destruction that is theoretical and does that mean that there isn't any clear evidence for such a destruction? 3) Why is it presumably by Israel? Is this based on 1-2. Samuel? And if so, how did the author know what happened in the 11th century? Or is it based on archaeological evidence and one must presume that they found a jawbone of an ass in the ruins? Or...???
        Thomas

        Thomas L. Thompson
        Professor emeritus
        University of Copenhagen

        David Hall wrote:
        "Aphek was destroyed multiple times and theoretically destroyed in the middle fo the 11th century, presumably by Israel."

        ____________ _________ _________ __

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Trudy Kawami
        When considering the destruction(s) of a site, it is good to check what percentage of the area for that period was excavated. There can be many reasons for the
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 4, 2009
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          When considering the destruction(s) of a site, it is good to check what
          percentage of the area for that period was excavated. There can be many
          reasons for the destruction of a particular quarter, not just military
          attack. Most buildings contained flammable materials, especially grain
          which burns very hot. People cooked, accidents happened, there were no
          firefighters, etc. There were also earthquakes, wind storms, flash
          floods, yes even snowfalls. The destruction of one excavated area does
          not mean that the unexcavated areas were also destroyed. Thus you have
          to go back to the original excavations, primary documents as it were, to
          decide the nature of the destruction(s). Scholarship means asking
          questions of the basic material, not just compiling secondary
          assumptions.

          Trudy Kawami







          The MBI city was reported destroyed, no exact details as to when. There
          were a few Hyksos (MBII) rermains reported then the place was abandoned.
          Thutmosis III campaigned in the area during the LBA. Am not sure of the
          exact number of destructions. The publication I saw was a brief summary
          of work there without in depth details. If there were two destructions,
          then there were numerous destructions as numerous means more than one in
          this case.
          [SNIP]

          Eastern Med. type pottery. There were two theories cited about Beth
          Shean in a work by A. Mazar. One theory was that the Philistines were
          at Beth Shean during the 11th century, the other theory was that they
          were not. I do not have the scope to be able to determine whose
          suspicion is right.

          David Q. Hall
          dqhall59@... <mailto:dqhall59%40yahoo.com>



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        • arenmaeir
          The recent discussions about Aphek and the northern Sea Peoples that have been going on are based on extremely old excavations reports and discussions. Over
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 4, 2009
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            The recent discussions about Aphek and the "northern Sea Peoples"
            that have been going on are based on extremely old excavations
            reports and discussions. Over the last decade (and more) a lot of
            relevant materials and discussions have appeared. Particularly
            imoportant is the new materials now starting to appear from the Amuq.
            A large percentage of this can be accessed in major libraries
            throughout the world, and inter alia, has appeared in journals such
            as BASOR, AJA, IEJ, Tel Aviv, Scripta Mediterranea, etc. Much of this
            is also accessable on the web.

            Look for articles by, e.g., A. Gilboa, Y. Gadot, A. Mazar, E. Stern,
            S. Sherratt, A. Yasur-Landau, A. Killebrew, and yours truly (and
            clearly, not all agree with one another).

            Carrying out discussions on this topic without looking at these
            resources is like debating Troy using only research that is pre-
            Korfmann...

            Aren Maeir
            dig-gath.org
          • David Hall
            Thanks for some of these references.  I found the discussion of Aphek by Kochavi to be superficial and not well described.  It is not possible to see what
            Message 5 of 8 , Feb 5, 2009
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              Thanks for some of these references.  I found the discussion of Aphek by Kochavi to be superficial and not well described.  It is not possible to see what century of the MBA the place was supposidely destroyed from his description.  It is true sometimes a building burned down without an entire site being destroyed.  
               
              I have read additional reports by you, Mazar, also recently read Killebrew's Biblical Peoples and Ethnicity, that brought forth some new material about a few small areas where Egyptian style buildings and pottery were found in ANE Egyptian colonized Israel/Palestine, but this book was also another repetition of data known for decades.  The Beth Shean Egyptian administrative building that was at first described as a temple was published a long, long time ago.  Petrie published evidence of Egypt in the vicinity of Gaza more than fifty years ago.  Raphael Giveon published a work decades ago about the Shosu Bedoiun (French) including lists of captives/slaves taken by Egyptian Pharoahs who invaded Canaan.   I have read that Mazar's recent survey of the central Jordan Valley did not find Philistine settlements.  The Beth Shean Valley was not discussed in detail.  Will continue to seek out more reports. 
               
              I recall a tablet found at Ugarit from the king of Ugarit to the king of Alashia requesting help as his chariots and infantry were in the land of the Hittites and his ships were in Lycia.  Seven ships had landed on his shores and destroyed much in his defenseless country.  One of the last tablets written in Ugarit (c. 1200-1175) found in a kiln during 1986 was a request for provision of 150 warships.  (Drews, The End of the Bronze Age, 1993)
               
              David Q. Hall
              dqhall59@...
               
               

              --- On Thu, 2/5/09, arenmaeir <maeira@...> wrote:

              From: arenmaeir <maeira@...>
              Subject: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Aphek, at the head of the Yarkon River
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, February 5, 2009, 2:36 AM






              The recent discussions about Aphek and the "northern Sea Peoples"
              that have been going on are based on extremely old excavations
              reports and discussions. Over the last decade (and more) a lot of
              relevant materials and discussions have appeared. Particularly
              imoportant is the new materials now starting to appear from the Amuq.
              A large percentage of this can be accessed in major libraries
              throughout the world, and inter alia, has appeared in journals such
              as BASOR, AJA, IEJ, Tel Aviv, Scripta Mediterranea, etc. Much of this
              is also accessable on the web.

              Look for articles by, e.g., A. Gilboa, Y. Gadot, A. Mazar, E. Stern,
              S. Sherratt, A. Yasur-Landau, A. Killebrew, and yours truly (and
              clearly, not all agree with one another).

              Carrying out discussions on this topic without looking at these
              resources is like debating Troy using only research that is pre-
              Korfmann...

              Aren Maeir
              dig-gath.org



















              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • arenmaeir
              It is usually accepted today the supposed tablets found in a kiln from the destruction of Ugarit are in fact tablets that fell from the 2nd floor of the
              Message 6 of 8 , Feb 5, 2009
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                It is usually accepted today the supposed "tablets found in a kiln"
                from the destruction of Ugarit are in fact tablets that fell from the
                2nd floor of the palace into an oven, purely by coincidence.

                Aren Maeir
              • David Hall
                Perhaps some can accept that tablets might have accidentally fallen into a kiln from a burning second floor.  That was not the only logical explaination for
                Message 7 of 8 , Feb 5, 2009
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                  Perhaps some can accept that tablets might have accidentally fallen into a kiln from a burning second floor.  That was not the only logical explaination for clay tablets being in a pottery kiln. 
                   
                  This afternoon I read Eliezer Oren's account of the Northern Cemetary at Beth Shean (1973).  It was in synch with Killebrew's recent publication that the anthropoid sarcophagi found at Beth Shean were stylized Egyptian.  Oren's publication indicated the figures on the faces of the clay coffins were as likely Denyen/Dananu mercenaries rather than Philistine as the Denyen may have arrived along the south coast before the Philistines. The faces on the coffins were without the typical beards of the Semites and the head bands, when shown, more often differed from the feathered headgear of the sea peoples. There was no Philistine pottery found on the mound. 
                   
                  Read some more of Mazar's work on Tel Beth Shean Iron Age II (Studies in the Archaeology of the Iron Age, 2001) and found evidence in his summary of strata for a small unfortified community on top of the steep sided hill from about the time of Saul.  No city walls were found.  I recall the Biblical account of the Philistines hanging Sauls' body on the Beth Shean city wall 1 Samuel 31:8, yet there was no city wall found.   
                   
                  I suppose the historicity of the Bible became more believable for later times rather than earlier times.  Perhaps Finkelstein's orientation away from a maximalist position was after much study.         
                   
                  David Q. Hall 
                  dqhall59@...
                   
                   

                  --- On Thu, 2/5/09, arenmaeir <maeira@...> wrote:

                  From: arenmaeir <maeira@...>
                  Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Ugarit - "tablets in kiln"
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Thursday, February 5, 2009, 2:52 PM






                  It is usually accepted today the supposed "tablets found in a kiln"
                  from the destruction of Ugarit are in fact tablets that fell from the
                  2nd floor of the palace into an oven, purely by coincidence.

                  Aren Maeir



















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