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SV: [ANE-2] Aphek, at the head of the Yarkon River

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  • Thomas L. Thompson
    Dear David, Your threefold statement concerning the destruction of Aphek puzzles me: 1) Am I correct in assuming that what you refer to by Aphek s multiple
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 3, 2009
      Dear David,
      Your threefold statement concerning the destruction of Aphek puzzles me: 1) Am I correct in assuming that what you refer to by Aphek's "multiple" destructions was that there was found evidence of destruction in multiple strata? If that is correct, what is the reconstructed chronology for the earliest and the latest strata where evidence of destruction was found? 2) Why do you say that they were theoretically destroyed in the middle of the 11th century? Is it the chronology which is theoretical and, if so, what is the theoretical basis? Or is it the destruction that is theoretical and does that mean that there isn't any clear evidence for such a destruction? 3) Why is it presumably by Israel? Is this based on 1-2. Samuel? And if so, how did the author know what happened in the 11th century? Or is it based on archaeological evidence and one must presume that they found a jawbone of an ass in the ruins? Or...???
      Thomas

      Thomas L. Thompson
      Professor emeritus
      University of Copenhagen


      David Hall wrote:
      "Aphek was destroyed multiple times and theoretically destroyed in the middle fo the 11th century, presumably by Israel."

      ________________________________





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • eliot braun
      There should be some answers to these questions with the publication of Aphek-Antipatris II, now in press at The Institute of Archaeology, Tel Aviv U.
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 4, 2009
        There should be some answers to these questions with the publication of Aphek-Antipatris II, now in press at The Institute of Archaeology, Tel Aviv U. Hopefully it will appear in 2009.


        Eliot Braun, Ph D
        Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
        Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
        PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
        Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096

        --- On Wed, 2/4/09, Thomas L. Thompson <tlt@...> wrote:

        From: Thomas L. Thompson <tlt@...>
        Subject: SV: [ANE-2] Aphek, at the head of the Yarkon River
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, February 4, 2009, 2:41 AM






        Dear David,
        Your threefold statement concerning the destruction of Aphek puzzles me: 1) Am I correct in assuming that what you refer to by Aphek's "multiple" destructions was that there was found evidence of destruction in multiple strata? If that is correct, what is the reconstructed chronology for the earliest and the latest strata where evidence of destruction was found? 2) Why do you say that they were theoretically destroyed in the middle of the 11th century? Is it the chronology which is theoretical and, if so, what is the theoretical basis? Or is it the destruction that is theoretical and does that mean that there isn't any clear evidence for such a destruction? 3) Why is it presumably by Israel? Is this based on 1-2. Samuel? And if so, how did the author know what happened in the 11th century? Or is it based on archaeological evidence and one must presume that they found a jawbone of an ass in the ruins? Or...???
        Thomas

        Thomas L. Thompson
        Professor emeritus
        University of Copenhagen


        David Hall wrote:
        "Aphek was destroyed multiple times and theoretically destroyed in the middle fo the 11th century, presumably by Israel."

        ____________ _________ _________ __

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David Hall
        The MBI city was reported destroyed, no exact details as to when.  There were a few Hyksos (MBII) rermains reported then the place was abandoned.  Thutmosis
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 4, 2009
          The MBI city was reported destroyed, no exact details as to when.  There were a few Hyksos (MBII) rermains reported then the place was abandoned.  Thutmosis III campaigned in the area during the LBA.  Am not sure of the exact number of destructions.  The publication I saw was a brief summary of work there without in depth details.  If there were two destructions, then there were numerous destructions as numerous means more than one in this case.  
           
          The title about Aphek I found in the Library of Congress is rare.  In order to get a United States copyright a person had to submit a book to the library.  There is little space left and many books were being diverted to off-site storage or not collected for lack of space.  The library is non-circulating, but they have a photocopy service for remote users.  I read there are 39 million printed publications in their collection.  It is the largest library in the world.  
           
          Will probably need the Aphek II publication for a better summary of discoveries at Aphek.  
           
          As for the question about Sea Peoples north of Tel Qasille/Yarkon River, yes the Egyptian records recorded the Tjeker there in the 11th century account of Wenamun (reign of Ramesses XI).  There is an antiquities museum in an abandoned glass factory at Tel Dor; the harbor where the Egyptian Wenamun supposidely traveled to.  I took a tour of the place in 2006 while some universities were digging at the top of the Tel.  An Israeli historian told me the pottery I was looking at was not Aegean, but locally made imitations of Eastern Med. type pottery.  There were two theories cited about Beth Shean in a work by A. Mazar.  One theory was that the Philistines were at Beth Shean during the 11th century, the other theory was that they were not.  I do not have the scope to be able to determine whose suspicion is right.         
           
          David Q. Hall
          dqhall59@...

          --- On Wed, 2/4/09, eliot braun <eliotbraun@...> wrote:

          From: eliot braun <eliotbraun@...>
          Subject: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Aphek, at the head of the Yarkon River
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, February 4, 2009, 6:38 AM






          There should be some answers to these questions with the publication of Aphek-Antipatris II, now in press at The Institute of Archaeology, Tel Aviv U. Hopefully it will appear in 2009.

          Eliot Braun, Ph D
          Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
          Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
          PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
          Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096

          --- On Wed, 2/4/09, Thomas L. Thompson <tlt@.... dk> wrote:

          From: Thomas L. Thompson <tlt@.... dk>
          Subject: SV: [ANE-2] Aphek, at the head of the Yarkon River
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
          Date: Wednesday, February 4, 2009, 2:41 AM

          Dear David,
          Your threefold statement concerning the destruction of Aphek puzzles me: 1) Am I correct in assuming that what you refer to by Aphek's "multiple" destructions was that there was found evidence of destruction in multiple strata? If that is correct, what is the reconstructed chronology for the earliest and the latest strata where evidence of destruction was found? 2) Why do you say that they were theoretically destroyed in the middle of the 11th century? Is it the chronology which is theoretical and, if so, what is the theoretical basis? Or is it the destruction that is theoretical and does that mean that there isn't any clear evidence for such a destruction? 3) Why is it presumably by Israel? Is this based on 1-2. Samuel? And if so, how did the author know what happened in the 11th century? Or is it based on archaeological evidence and one must presume that they found a jawbone of an ass in the ruins? Or...???
          Thomas

          Thomas L. Thompson
          Professor emeritus
          University of Copenhagen

          David Hall wrote:
          "Aphek was destroyed multiple times and theoretically destroyed in the middle fo the 11th century, presumably by Israel."

          ____________ _________ _________ __

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Trudy Kawami
          When considering the destruction(s) of a site, it is good to check what percentage of the area for that period was excavated. There can be many reasons for the
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 4, 2009
            When considering the destruction(s) of a site, it is good to check what
            percentage of the area for that period was excavated. There can be many
            reasons for the destruction of a particular quarter, not just military
            attack. Most buildings contained flammable materials, especially grain
            which burns very hot. People cooked, accidents happened, there were no
            firefighters, etc. There were also earthquakes, wind storms, flash
            floods, yes even snowfalls. The destruction of one excavated area does
            not mean that the unexcavated areas were also destroyed. Thus you have
            to go back to the original excavations, primary documents as it were, to
            decide the nature of the destruction(s). Scholarship means asking
            questions of the basic material, not just compiling secondary
            assumptions.

            Trudy Kawami







            The MBI city was reported destroyed, no exact details as to when. There
            were a few Hyksos (MBII) rermains reported then the place was abandoned.
            Thutmosis III campaigned in the area during the LBA. Am not sure of the
            exact number of destructions. The publication I saw was a brief summary
            of work there without in depth details. If there were two destructions,
            then there were numerous destructions as numerous means more than one in
            this case.
            [SNIP]

            Eastern Med. type pottery. There were two theories cited about Beth
            Shean in a work by A. Mazar. One theory was that the Philistines were
            at Beth Shean during the 11th century, the other theory was that they
            were not. I do not have the scope to be able to determine whose
            suspicion is right.

            David Q. Hall
            dqhall59@... <mailto:dqhall59%40yahoo.com>



            ________________________________



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          • arenmaeir
            The recent discussions about Aphek and the northern Sea Peoples that have been going on are based on extremely old excavations reports and discussions. Over
            Message 5 of 8 , Feb 4, 2009
              The recent discussions about Aphek and the "northern Sea Peoples"
              that have been going on are based on extremely old excavations
              reports and discussions. Over the last decade (and more) a lot of
              relevant materials and discussions have appeared. Particularly
              imoportant is the new materials now starting to appear from the Amuq.
              A large percentage of this can be accessed in major libraries
              throughout the world, and inter alia, has appeared in journals such
              as BASOR, AJA, IEJ, Tel Aviv, Scripta Mediterranea, etc. Much of this
              is also accessable on the web.

              Look for articles by, e.g., A. Gilboa, Y. Gadot, A. Mazar, E. Stern,
              S. Sherratt, A. Yasur-Landau, A. Killebrew, and yours truly (and
              clearly, not all agree with one another).

              Carrying out discussions on this topic without looking at these
              resources is like debating Troy using only research that is pre-
              Korfmann...

              Aren Maeir
              dig-gath.org
            • David Hall
              Thanks for some of these references.  I found the discussion of Aphek by Kochavi to be superficial and not well described.  It is not possible to see what
              Message 6 of 8 , Feb 5, 2009
                Thanks for some of these references.  I found the discussion of Aphek by Kochavi to be superficial and not well described.  It is not possible to see what century of the MBA the place was supposidely destroyed from his description.  It is true sometimes a building burned down without an entire site being destroyed.  
                 
                I have read additional reports by you, Mazar, also recently read Killebrew's Biblical Peoples and Ethnicity, that brought forth some new material about a few small areas where Egyptian style buildings and pottery were found in ANE Egyptian colonized Israel/Palestine, but this book was also another repetition of data known for decades.  The Beth Shean Egyptian administrative building that was at first described as a temple was published a long, long time ago.  Petrie published evidence of Egypt in the vicinity of Gaza more than fifty years ago.  Raphael Giveon published a work decades ago about the Shosu Bedoiun (French) including lists of captives/slaves taken by Egyptian Pharoahs who invaded Canaan.   I have read that Mazar's recent survey of the central Jordan Valley did not find Philistine settlements.  The Beth Shean Valley was not discussed in detail.  Will continue to seek out more reports. 
                 
                I recall a tablet found at Ugarit from the king of Ugarit to the king of Alashia requesting help as his chariots and infantry were in the land of the Hittites and his ships were in Lycia.  Seven ships had landed on his shores and destroyed much in his defenseless country.  One of the last tablets written in Ugarit (c. 1200-1175) found in a kiln during 1986 was a request for provision of 150 warships.  (Drews, The End of the Bronze Age, 1993)
                 
                David Q. Hall
                dqhall59@...
                 
                 

                --- On Thu, 2/5/09, arenmaeir <maeira@...> wrote:

                From: arenmaeir <maeira@...>
                Subject: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Aphek, at the head of the Yarkon River
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Thursday, February 5, 2009, 2:36 AM






                The recent discussions about Aphek and the "northern Sea Peoples"
                that have been going on are based on extremely old excavations
                reports and discussions. Over the last decade (and more) a lot of
                relevant materials and discussions have appeared. Particularly
                imoportant is the new materials now starting to appear from the Amuq.
                A large percentage of this can be accessed in major libraries
                throughout the world, and inter alia, has appeared in journals such
                as BASOR, AJA, IEJ, Tel Aviv, Scripta Mediterranea, etc. Much of this
                is also accessable on the web.

                Look for articles by, e.g., A. Gilboa, Y. Gadot, A. Mazar, E. Stern,
                S. Sherratt, A. Yasur-Landau, A. Killebrew, and yours truly (and
                clearly, not all agree with one another).

                Carrying out discussions on this topic without looking at these
                resources is like debating Troy using only research that is pre-
                Korfmann...

                Aren Maeir
                dig-gath.org



















                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • arenmaeir
                It is usually accepted today the supposed tablets found in a kiln from the destruction of Ugarit are in fact tablets that fell from the 2nd floor of the
                Message 7 of 8 , Feb 5, 2009
                  It is usually accepted today the supposed "tablets found in a kiln"
                  from the destruction of Ugarit are in fact tablets that fell from the
                  2nd floor of the palace into an oven, purely by coincidence.

                  Aren Maeir
                • David Hall
                  Perhaps some can accept that tablets might have accidentally fallen into a kiln from a burning second floor.  That was not the only logical explaination for
                  Message 8 of 8 , Feb 5, 2009
                    Perhaps some can accept that tablets might have accidentally fallen into a kiln from a burning second floor.  That was not the only logical explaination for clay tablets being in a pottery kiln. 
                     
                    This afternoon I read Eliezer Oren's account of the Northern Cemetary at Beth Shean (1973).  It was in synch with Killebrew's recent publication that the anthropoid sarcophagi found at Beth Shean were stylized Egyptian.  Oren's publication indicated the figures on the faces of the clay coffins were as likely Denyen/Dananu mercenaries rather than Philistine as the Denyen may have arrived along the south coast before the Philistines. The faces on the coffins were without the typical beards of the Semites and the head bands, when shown, more often differed from the feathered headgear of the sea peoples. There was no Philistine pottery found on the mound. 
                     
                    Read some more of Mazar's work on Tel Beth Shean Iron Age II (Studies in the Archaeology of the Iron Age, 2001) and found evidence in his summary of strata for a small unfortified community on top of the steep sided hill from about the time of Saul.  No city walls were found.  I recall the Biblical account of the Philistines hanging Sauls' body on the Beth Shean city wall 1 Samuel 31:8, yet there was no city wall found.   
                     
                    I suppose the historicity of the Bible became more believable for later times rather than earlier times.  Perhaps Finkelstein's orientation away from a maximalist position was after much study.         
                     
                    David Q. Hall 
                    dqhall59@...
                     
                     

                    --- On Thu, 2/5/09, arenmaeir <maeira@...> wrote:

                    From: arenmaeir <maeira@...>
                    Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Ugarit - "tablets in kiln"
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Thursday, February 5, 2009, 2:52 PM






                    It is usually accepted today the supposed "tablets found in a kiln"
                    from the destruction of Ugarit are in fact tablets that fell from the
                    2nd floor of the palace into an oven, purely by coincidence.

                    Aren Maeir



















                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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