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Re: [ANE-2] trumpets or bugles?

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  • Jim West
    Wiki... ghastly. Anyway, take a look at Joachim Braun s Music in Ancient Israel/ Palestine (Eerdmans). He deals with trumpets in various stages of
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 28, 2009
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      Wiki... ghastly.
      Anyway, take a look at Joachim Braun's 'Music in Ancient Israel/
      Palestine' (Eerdmans). He deals with 'trumpets' in various stages of
      Israel's history (among many other things. It's really a very fine book
      and WAY better than foul wikipedia).


      Lisbeth S. Fried wrote:
      >
      > Dear All,
      >
      > King and Stager (p. 296) suggest that the h.acocera (ַחֲצֹצְרוֹת 2 Kings
      > 11.14, Ezra 3:10) usually translated “trumpet” should be translated
      > “bugle,” since they did not have valves. However, according to that
      > esteemed and reliable source, Wikipedia, early trumpets did not have
      > valves, and date back to 1500 BCE.
      >
      > So is a bugle just a trumpet without valves? Do I translate the term
      > “bugle” or “trumpet”?
      >
      > Thanks for any help.
      >
      > Liz Fried
      >
      > University of Michigan
      > Ann Arbor, MI 48104
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >

      --
      ++++++

      Jim West, ThD
      http://jwest.wordpress.com - Notae Zuinglii
    • Lisbeth S. Fried
      Dear Bo, Peter, et. al. Does this help? Does Josephus describe a bugle or a trumpet here? If a bugle is a type of trumpet, then trumpet would be the correct
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 28, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Bo, Peter, et. al.

        Does this help? Does Josephus describe a bugle or a trumpet here? If a bugle is a type of trumpet, then trumpet would be the correct translation I suppose.

        Liz Fried



        JOE Antiquities of the Jews 3:291 Moreover, Moses was the inventor of the form of their trumpet, which was made of silver. Its description is this:-- In length it was little less than a cubit. It was composed of a narrow tube, somewhat thicker than a flute, but with so much breadth as was sufficient for admission of the breath of a man's mouth: it ended in the form of a bell, like common trumpets σάλπιγξι .

        Its sound was called in the Hebrew tongue Asosra.





        _____

        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bo Lawergren
        Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 5:38 PM
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [ANE-2] trumpets or bugles?



        Dear Liz,

        That date is wrong. There are extant trumpets from earlier times, see my “Oxus Trumpets, ca. 2200 – 1800 bce: Material Overview, Usage, Societal Role, and Catalog,” Iranica Antiqua 38 (2003) 41–118. Valves were introduced during the 19th century (CE). Many musicologists view the Bugle as a sub-species of the Trumpet.

        Bo Lawergren

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Lisbeth S. Fried
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
        Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 4:56 PM
        Subject: [ANE-2] trumpets or bugles?

        Dear All,

        King and Stager (p. 296) suggest that the h.acocera (ַחֲצֹצְרוֹת 2 Kings 11.14, Ezra 3:10) usually translated “trumpet” should be translated “bugle,” since they did not have valves. However, according to that esteemed and reliable source, Wikipedia, early trumpets did not have valves, and date back to 1500 BCE.

        So is a bugle just a trumpet without valves? Do I translate the term “bugle” or “trumpet”?

        Thanks for any help.

        Liz Fried

        University of Michigan
        Ann Arbor, MI 48104

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • sbudin@camden.rutgers.edu
        Valves are late additions, and cannot be used as defining criteria for naming musical instruments. However, a common criterion is material. In this instance,
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 28, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Valves are late additions, and cannot be used as defining
          criteria for naming musical instruments. However, a common criterion
          is material. In this instance, if the instrument is made of metal,
          'trumpet' would be the better translation. 'Bugle' would be more
          appropriate for a horn horn (yes, I intended both). Also, in terms of
          use, bugles are more used for just making a loud noise, and appear in
          war or hunting scenarios. Trumpets are specifically for making music.
          You probably want to use the translation 'trumpet.'

          -Stephanie Budin




          Quoting "Lisbeth S. Fried" <lizfried@...>:

          > Dear Bo, Peter, et. al.
          >
          > Does this help? Does Josephus describe a bugle or a trumpet here?
          > If a bugle is a type of trumpet, then trumpet would be the correct
          > translation I suppose.
          >
          > Liz Fried
          >
          >
          >
          > JOE Antiquities of the Jews 3:291 Moreover, Moses was the inventor
          > of the form of their trumpet, which was made of silver. Its
          > description is this:-- In length it was little less than a cubit. It
          > was composed of a narrow tube, somewhat thicker than a flute, but
          > with so much breadth as was sufficient for admission of the breath
          > of a man's mouth: it ended in the form of a bell, like common
          > trumpets σάλπιγξι .
          >
          > Its sound was called in the Hebrew tongue Asosra.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > _____
          >
          > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          > Of Bo Lawergren
          > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 5:38 PM
          > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] trumpets or bugles?
          >
          >
          >
          > Dear Liz,
          >
          > That date is wrong. There are extant trumpets from earlier times,
          > see my “Oxus Trumpets, ca. 2200 – 1800 bce: Material Overview,
          > Usage, Societal Role, and Catalog,” Iranica Antiqua 38 (2003)
          > 41–118. Valves were introduced during the 19th century (CE). Many
          > musicologists view the Bugle as a sub-species of the Trumpet.
          >
          > Bo Lawergren
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Lisbeth S. Fried
          > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
          > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 4:56 PM
          > Subject: [ANE-2] trumpets or bugles?
          >
          > Dear All,
          >
          > King and Stager (p. 296) suggest that the h.acocera (ַחֲצֹצְרוֹת 2
          > Kings 11.14, Ezra 3:10) usually translated “trumpet” should be
          > translated “bugle,” since they did not have valves. However,
          > according to that esteemed and reliable source, Wikipedia, early
          > trumpets did not have valves, and date back to 1500 BCE.
          >
          > So is a bugle just a trumpet without valves? Do I translate the term
          > “bugle” or “trumpet”?
          >
          > Thanks for any help.
          >
          > Liz Fried
          >
          > University of Michigan
          > Ann Arbor, MI 48104
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >



          "Maybe we can link up with someone who's meditating and download
          enlightenment!" -Tachikoma
        • Lisbeth S. Fried
          OK, trumpet it is. Although according to the biblical text the instrument is used in war and hunting too, and seems to be used there just to make noise.
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 28, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            OK, trumpet it is. Although according to the biblical text the instrument is used in war and hunting too, and seems to be used there just to make noise. However, it is definitely of hammered metal. So, if that’s the main difference, then trumpet it is!

            Thanks a lot everyone for all your help.

            Liz Fried



            _____

            From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sbudin@...
            Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 6:03 PM
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [ANE-2] trumpets or bugles?



            Valves are late additions, and cannot be used as defining
            criteria for naming musical instruments. However, a common criterion
            is material. In this instance, if the instrument is made of metal,
            'trumpet' would be the better translation. 'Bugle' would be more
            appropriate for a horn horn (yes, I intended both). Also, in terms of
            use, bugles are more used for just making a loud noise, and appear in
            war or hunting scenarios. Trumpets are specifically for making music.
            You probably want to use the translation 'trumpet.'

            -Stephanie Budin

            Quoting "Lisbeth S. Fried" <lizfried@umich. <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> edu>:

            > Dear Bo, Peter, et. al.
            >
            > Does this help? Does Josephus describe a bugle or a trumpet here?
            > If a bugle is a type of trumpet, then trumpet would be the correct
            > translation I suppose.
            >
            > Liz Fried
            >
            >
            >
            > JOE Antiquities of the Jews 3:291 Moreover, Moses was the inventor
            > of the form of their trumpet, which was made of silver. Its
            > description is this:-- In length it was little less than a cubit. It
            > was composed of a narrow tube, somewhat thicker than a flute, but
            > with so much breadth as was sufficient for admission of the breath
            > of a man's mouth: it ended in the form of a bell, like common
            > trumpets σάλπιγξι .
            >
            > Its sound was called in the Hebrew tongue Asosra.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > _____
            >
            > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com] On Behalf
            > Of Bo Lawergren
            > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 5:38 PM
            > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
            > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] trumpets or bugles?
            >
            >
            >
            > Dear Liz,
            >
            > That date is wrong. There are extant trumpets from earlier times,
            > see my “Oxus Trumpets, ca. 2200 – 1800 bce: Material Overview,
            > Usage, Societal Role, and Catalog,” Iranica Antiqua 38 (2003)
            > 41–118. Valves were introduced during the 19th century (CE). Many
            > musicologists view the Bugle as a sub-species of the Trumpet.
            >
            > Bo Lawergren
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Lisbeth S. Fried
            > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
            > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 4:56 PM
            > Subject: [ANE-2] trumpets or bugles?
            >
            > Dear All,
            >
            > King and Stager (p. 296) suggest that the h.acocera (ַחֲצֹצְרוֹת 2
            > Kings 11.14, Ezra 3:10) usually translated “trumpet” should be
            > translated “bugle,” since they did not have valves. However,
            > according to that esteemed and reliable source, Wikipedia, early
            > trumpets did not have valves, and date back to 1500 BCE.
            >
            > So is a bugle just a trumpet without valves? Do I translate the term
            > “bugle” or “trumpet”?
            >
            > Thanks for any help.
            >
            > Liz Fried
            >
            > University of Michigan
            > Ann Arbor, MI 48104
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >

            "Maybe we can link up with someone who's meditating and download
            enlightenment!" -Tachikoma





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Brian Colless
            Dear Liz I am coming into this late, but I am speaking as a trumpeter who started as a bugler, but did once have a turn at playing what we called a
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 29, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Liz

              I am coming into this late, but I am speaking as a trumpeter who
              started as a bugler, but did once have a turn at playing what we
              called a trumpet-bugle (simply because it did not have valves, and you
              know that the valves add extra lengths of tubing when you press the
              pistons down singly or in combinations, turning it into an instrument
              that can produce all the notes between C G C E G, and above and below
              those basics).

              Peter has given us succinctly the correct technical distinction:

              "A bugle has a conical bore, a trumpet a cylindrical bore."

              "There are keyed bugles, and valveless trumpets."

              The point is: the bugle belongs to the horn family, not the trumpet
              family (trumpets and trombones).

              I won't say that a person who gives the word "bore" in their
              definition without defining it (not in the Oxon lexicon, except with
              reference to guns and engines and calibre) is worthy of another usage
              of that word (or rather a homophone) which Oxford recognizes; but
              having had this answer given to me politely for fifty years, with the
              expectation that I know precisely what the difference is, I suppose it
              is about time I could distinguish cylindrical and conical bores (and
              it is not the shape of their hat which does it). (-;

              I see the Oxford lexicon gives *bugle-horn as a synonym; and *clarion
              is another word, but having a narrow tube and a warlike shrill tone
              it must be that "trumpet-bugle" I mentioned (which is really a
              valveless trumpet).

              What have we got in the Bible?

              Daniel 3:5, at the court of King Nabu-kudurrru-us.ur (Pronounced
              Caractacus),
              Aramaic QARN 'horn' or 'cornet' (King James version)

              Joshua 6:5-6, at the battle of Jericho, Hebrew QEREN 'horn' or
              trumpet' (KJV) together with
              SHOFAR, 'ram's horn)
              It seems that here the words refer to the same object, the horn of a
              ram used like a conch shell or Siegfried's bovine (I presume) horn for
              getting attention.

              H.aS.oS.eRa (passim): reed, tube, trumpet.
              This sounds nicely onomatopoeic to me: KH introduces the breath; TS,
              TS the tonguing behind the teeth and the spittle that accompanies the
              breath (a good argument for TS as the ancient pronunciation, it occurs
              to me right now!); and the tongued or trilled R is part of the mix
              that goes into the mouthpiece and is amplified in the metal tubing.

              Now, in brass bands and orchestras two similar instruments are the
              *cornet and the trumpet.
              The cornet is squatter but they both have the same length of metal,
              wound around so that it is not disturbing the player in front of you
              (prodding his back or blasting right in his ear). The cornet is sweet-
              singing the trumpet is brassy brash.

              And whether it is a conical horn or a cylindrical/tubular trumpet it
              has a bell (they all open out like a cornucopia).

              I presume you can say a flute, being tubular, has a cylindrical (not
              conical) 'bore'.

              So the ancient Israelite metal instruments were 'trumpets', and the
              others were animal 'horns'. The word 'cornet' does not apply, nor
              'bugle', I would think.

              Recently, after an early music concert I was allowed to hold a bent
              wooden (!) 'trumpet' (as used by Monteverdi and Gabrieli).

              Still, someone could clarify conical and cylindrical for us. Does it
              mean that the bugle and the cornet and the French horn are widening
              their hole all the way to the bell, while the trumpet keeps the same
              width most of the distance?

              The other day, Helen and I, and our grand-daughters Olivia and Julia,
              with their mother Laurel Colless of Virginia Tech, and their father
              Pekka Lintu the Finnish ambassador to Washington, marched round our
              house each with a percussion instrument, while I used a trumpet as a
              valve-trumpet to play the Grand March from Aida, but also playing
              bugle calls, which did not need any fingerwork, only tongue and lips
              and spit. Then they went back to D.C. for the Inauguration, and the
              Ball. Did you see them there?

              All right, but I think can remember Liz mentioning her grandchildren.

              fff >ppp

              Brian Colless


              On 29/01/2009, at 11:14 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

              > A bugle has a conical bore, a trumpet a cylindrical bore.
              >
              > There are keyed bugles, and valveless trumpets.
              > --
              > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
              > ________________________________
              > From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...>
              > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 4:56:26 PM
              > Subject: [ANE-2] trumpets or bugles?
              >
              > Dear All,
              >
              > King and Stager (p. 296) suggest that the h.acocera
              > (ַחֲצֹצְרוֹת 2 Kings 11.14, Ezra 3:10) usually translated
              > “trumpet” should be translated “bugle,” since they did not
              > have valves. However, according to that esteemed and reliable
              > source, Wikipedia, early trumpets did not have valves, and date back
              > to 1500 BCE.
              >
              > So is a bugle just a trumpet without valves? Do I translate the term
              > “bugle” or “trumpet”?
              >
              > Thanks for any help.
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Lisbeth S. Fried
              Very lovely, Thank you. Liz Fried (with four grandchildren) _____ From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Colless Sent:
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 29, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Very lovely,

                Thank you.

                Liz Fried

                (with four grandchildren)



                _____

                From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Colless
                Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 8:17 AM
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] trumpets or bugles?



                Dear Liz

                I am coming into this late, but I am speaking as a trumpeter who
                started as a bugler, but did once have a turn at playing what we
                called a trumpet-bugle (simply because it did not have valves, and you
                know that the valves add extra lengths of tubing when you press the
                pistons down singly or in combinations, turning it into an instrument
                that can produce all the notes between C G C E G, and above and below
                those basics).

                Peter has given us succinctly the correct technical distinction:

                "A bugle has a conical bore, a trumpet a cylindrical bore."

                "There are keyed bugles, and valveless trumpets."

                The point is: the bugle belongs to the horn family, not the trumpet
                family (trumpets and trombones).

                I won't say that a person who gives the word "bore" in their
                definition without defining it (not in the Oxon lexicon, except with
                reference to guns and engines and calibre) is worthy of another usage
                of that word (or rather a homophone) which Oxford recognizes; but
                having had this answer given to me politely for fifty years, with the
                expectation that I know precisely what the difference is, I suppose it
                is about time I could distinguish cylindrical and conical bores (and
                it is not the shape of their hat which does it). (-;

                I see the Oxford lexicon gives *bugle-horn as a synonym; and *clarion
                is another word, but having a narrow tube and a warlike shrill tone
                it must be that "trumpet-bugle" I mentioned (which is really a
                valveless trumpet).

                What have we got in the Bible?

                Daniel 3:5, at the court of King Nabu-kudurrru-us.ur (Pronounced
                Caractacus),
                Aramaic QARN 'horn' or 'cornet' (King James version)

                Joshua 6:5-6, at the battle of Jericho, Hebrew QEREN 'horn' or
                trumpet' (KJV) together with
                SHOFAR, 'ram's horn)
                It seems that here the words refer to the same object, the horn of a
                ram used like a conch shell or Siegfried's bovine (I presume) horn for
                getting attention.

                H.aS.oS.eRa (passim): reed, tube, trumpet.
                This sounds nicely onomatopoeic to me: KH introduces the breath; TS,
                TS the tonguing behind the teeth and the spittle that accompanies the
                breath (a good argument for TS as the ancient pronunciation, it occurs
                to me right now!); and the tongued or trilled R is part of the mix
                that goes into the mouthpiece and is amplified in the metal tubing.

                Now, in brass bands and orchestras two similar instruments are the
                *cornet and the trumpet.
                The cornet is squatter but they both have the same length of metal,
                wound around so that it is not disturbing the player in front of you
                (prodding his back or blasting right in his ear). The cornet is sweet-
                singing the trumpet is brassy brash.

                And whether it is a conical horn or a cylindrical/tubular trumpet it
                has a bell (they all open out like a cornucopia).

                I presume you can say a flute, being tubular, has a cylindrical (not
                conical) 'bore'.

                So the ancient Israelite metal instruments were 'trumpets', and the
                others were animal 'horns'. The word 'cornet' does not apply, nor
                'bugle', I would think.

                Recently, after an early music concert I was allowed to hold a bent
                wooden (!) 'trumpet' (as used by Monteverdi and Gabrieli).

                Still, someone could clarify conical and cylindrical for us. Does it
                mean that the bugle and the cornet and the French horn are widening
                their hole all the way to the bell, while the trumpet keeps the same
                width most of the distance?

                The other day, Helen and I, and our grand-daughters Olivia and Julia,
                with their mother Laurel Colless of Virginia Tech, and their father
                Pekka Lintu the Finnish ambassador to Washington, marched round our
                house each with a percussion instrument, while I used a trumpet as a
                valve-trumpet to play the Grand March from Aida, but also playing
                bugle calls, which did not need any fingerwork, only tongue and lips
                and spit. Then they went back to D.C. for the Inauguration, and the
                Ball. Did you see them there?

                All right, but I think can remember Liz mentioning her grandchildren.

                fff >ppp

                Brian Colless

                On 29/01/2009, at 11:14 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

                > A bugle has a conical bore, a trumpet a cylindrical bore.
                >
                > There are keyed bugles, and valveless trumpets.
                > --
                > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@verizon. <mailto:grammatim%40verizon.net> net
                > ________________________________
                > From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@umich. <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> edu>
                > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 4:56:26 PM
                > Subject: [ANE-2] trumpets or bugles?
                >
                > Dear All,
                >
                > King and Stager (p. 296) suggest that the h.acocera
                > (ַחֲצֹצְרוֹת 2 Kings 11.14, Ezra 3:10) usually translated
                > “trumpet” should be translated “bugle,” since they did not
                > have valves. However, according to that esteemed and reliable
                > source, Wikipedia, early trumpets did not have valves, and date back
                > to 1500 BCE.
                >
                > So is a bugle just a trumpet without valves? Do I translate the term
                > “bugle” or “trumpet”?
                >
                > Thanks for any help.
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Brian Colless
                PS What follows is going to look like I am blowing my own trumpet. And I am not trying to arouse a heated discussion of Wikipedia again. I simply wish to
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 30, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  PS
                  What follows is going to look like I am blowing my own trumpet.
                  And I am not trying to arouse a heated discussion of Wikipedia again.
                  I simply wish to express my appreciation for it, because they have
                  been kind and useful to me.

                  On 29/01/2009, at 11:03 AM, Jim West wrote:

                  > "Wiki... ghastly." "..... foul wikipedia"
                  >


                  Jim, lad, is that a general dismissal of the Wikipedia, which some
                  people swear by but which others swear at? Some consider Wiki wicked,
                  others rate it 'wicked'.

                  For my opera studies I use it regularly, alongside the NY Metropera
                  archives:

                  http://operawonk.blogspot.com

                  And the Wikipedia article on the proto-alphabet was based on
                  contributions of mine to this ANE forum, but I did not put it there:

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Bronze_Age_alphabets

                  To find that piece I put <proto-alphabet> into the Google slot and it
                  came out at the top of page 1, followed by articles in my cryptcracker
                  and collesseum sites. Try it and see.

                  Also on page 1 I discovered my first contribution on the proto-
                  alphabet to ANE 17/11/1999, with reference to the Wadi el-Hol
                  discoveries, but I had not yet seen them; so I have made a copy of it
                  for myself.

                  I am not sure whether I invented the term proto-alphabet, but I am the
                  one who uses it to refer to the prototype of the alphabet, the West
                  Semitic logo-consonantary.

                  The trouble with Wiki is the interference from pedants and
                  ignoramuses. That article has my table of the signs and their sound
                  values (taken from ANE postings); I have just noticed that someone has
                  altered my gaml "boomerang" to "sling staff", because boomerang is
                  Australian; well, so am I, but I am also international, and boomerang
                  is, too. I remember seeing Tutankhamon's missiles on show in the Cairo
                  Museum, with examples of Australian boomerangs for comparison; the
                  difference was that his are made of ivory. I have changed it to gaml
                  "throw stick, boomerang".

                  I also added Gordon Hamilton's book on " the origins of the WS
                  alphabet in Egyptian scripts" (2006) to the Literature list, adding a
                  note that my review of it is on Cryptcracker; my articles on the WS
                  scripts on google sites are automatically rejected by Big Brother, I
                  have found.

                  So, thanks for that prod, Dr Jim, it has given me an opportunity to
                  check up on my favourite article in Wikipedia. I did not write it but
                  it does not exclude me, as other writers do; but perhaps that is an
                  indication of how marginal Wiki is!

                  Brian Colless, Massey University, Palmerston North, New Zealand

                  > Anyway, take a look at Joachim Braun's 'Music in Ancient Israel/
                  > Palestine' (Eerdmans). He deals with 'trumpets' in various stages of
                  > Israel's history (among many other things. It's really a very fine
                  > book
                  > and WAY better than foul wikipedia).
                  >
                  > Lisbeth S. Fried wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Dear All,
                  > >
                  > > King and Stager (p. 296) suggest that the h.acocera
                  > (ַחֲצֹצְרוֹת 2 Kings
                  > > 11.14, Ezra 3:10) usually translated “trumpet” should be
                  > translated
                  > > “bugle,” since they did not have valves. However, according to
                  > that
                  > > esteemed and reliable source, Wikipedia, early trumpets did not have
                  > > valves, and date back to 1500 BCE.
                  > >
                  > > So is a bugle just a trumpet without valves? Do I translate the term
                  > > “bugle” or “trumpet”?
                  > >
                  > > Thanks for any help.
                  > >
                  > > Liz Fried
                  > >
                  > > University of Michigan
                  > > Ann Arbor, MI 48104
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > --
                  > ++++++
                  >
                  > Jim West, ThD
                  > http://jwest.wordpress.com - Notae Zuinglii
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Nahed Johnspoon
                  On 1430 05 Safar 04, at 20:30 EST, Brian Colless wrote: The trouble with Wiki is the interference from pedants and ignoramuses. That article has my table of
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 31, 2009
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                    On 1430 05 Safar 04, at 20:30 EST, Brian Colless wrote: "The trouble
                    with Wiki is the interference from pedants and ignoramuses. That
                    article has my table of the signs and their sound values (taken from
                    ANE postings); I have just noticed that someone has altered my gaml
                    "boomerang" to "sling staff", because boomerang is Australian; well,
                    so am I, but I am also international, and boomerang is, too."

                    The term I've found used outside of studies of Australia is actually
                    "rabbit stick", which I'm rather fond of. But what on Earth is a
                    "sling staff"? Never heard that one before.

                    Anna Johnson

                    PS Work on Wikipedia is 1/10th writing-&-citing, 9/10ths reverting
                    people who type lewd words in all caps and write fringe theory into
                    articles with ridiculous citations. Nonetheless it can be satisfying;
                    the state of certain sets of articles is excellent and even some
                    rather specialist pages is also very good.
                  • Robert M Whiting
                    ... Sling staff sounds like a Babelfish translation of throw stick . Bob Whiting whiting@cc.helsinki.fi
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 31, 2009
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                      On Sat, 31 Jan 2009, Nahed Johnspoon wrote:

                      > On 1430 05 Safar 04, at 20:30 EST, Brian Colless wrote: "The trouble
                      > with Wiki is the interference from pedants and ignoramuses. That
                      > article has my table of the signs and their sound values (taken from
                      > ANE postings); I have just noticed that someone has altered my gaml
                      > "boomerang" to "sling staff", because boomerang is Australian; well,
                      > so am I, but I am also international, and boomerang is, too."
                      >
                      > The term I've found used outside of studies of Australia is actually
                      > "rabbit stick", which I'm rather fond of. But what on Earth is a
                      > "sling staff"? Never heard that one before.

                      "Sling staff" sounds like a Babelfish translation of "throw stick".

                      Bob Whiting
                      whiting@...
                    • Doug Weller
                      ... Just to say that I agree with the above. And luckily, I can also within guidelines block some of the idiots who vandalise. Doug -- Doug s Archaeology Site
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 31, 2009
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                        Quoting Nahed Johnspoon <sikozujohnson@...>:

                        >
                        > PS Work on Wikipedia is 1/10th writing-&-citing, 9/10ths reverting
                        > people who type lewd words in all caps and write fringe theory into
                        > articles with ridiculous citations. Nonetheless it can be satisfying;
                        > the state of certain sets of articles is excellent and even some
                        > rather specialist pages is also very good.
                        >

                        Just to say that I agree with the above. And luckily, I can also
                        within guidelines block some of the idiots who vandalise.

                        Doug

                        --

                        Doug's Archaeology Site http://www.ramtops.co.uk
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