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Re: An provenienced pomegranate from Jerusalem/City of David excavations

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  • lmlkes
    Dear Dr. Hurowitz, I am curious if the Bible tells us that Ivory is not allowed in the Temple? In Samaria, archaeologists sure found a lot of it, ca. 12,000
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 9, 2009
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      Dear Dr. Hurowitz, I am curious if the Bible tells us that Ivory is
      not allowed in the Temple? In Samaria, archaeologists sure found a
      lot of it, ca. 12,000 pieces, in excavations between 1908 and 1935.
      The pieces of polished or carved Ivory came from the area of the Iron
      Age palace and can be dated to the 9th or 8th Centuries B.C. A number
      of carvings exhibit letters and inscriptions that can be identified
      as Hebrew. So, we know that Royalty used Ivory. Is there any Biblical
      reference that prohibits Priests from using Ivory? I Thank You For
      Your Help and Your Time.
      With Much Gratitude,
      Sincerely Yours,
      Michael Welch
      Deltona, Florida

      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > This is an interesting article with exciting finds, but I am
      bothered by
      > the beginning which says that the pomegranate found in the City of
      David
      > is similar in form to the 400 decorative pomegranates which are
      described
      > in Solomons Temple according to the book of Kings 7:43 (should be
      v. 42
      > and cf also v, 20!)
      >
      > Now this is absolute nonsense. The pomegranates in the temple
      descriptions
      > were part of the yakhin and Boaz pillar crowns which were made of
      bronze
      > and not ivory At most one can say that the
      > newly discovered pomegranate can be, like pomegranates mentioned in
      > various biblical passages, a decorative motif known also from cultic
      > contexts.
      >
      > Victor Hurowitz
      >
      > BGU
    • victor avigdor hurowitz
      I assume that it will appear in Ha aretz English soon enough. Victor Hurowitz BGU
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 10, 2009
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        I assume that it will appear in Ha'aretz English soon enough.
        Victor Hurowitz
        BGU



        On Fri, 9 Jan 2009, George F Somsel wrote:

        > Do we know of anyone who is conversant in both modern Hebrew and English who could translate this?  :-)
        >  
        > Hello, Victor.
        > george
        > gfsomsel
        >
        >
        > … search for truth, hear truth,
        > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
        > defend the truth till death.
        >
        >
        > - Jan Hus
        > _________
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...>
        > To: ANE <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Friday, January 9, 2009 6:36:16 AM
        > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] An provenienced pomegranate from Jerusalem/City of David excavations
        >
        > This is an interesting article with exciting finds, but I am bothered by
        > the beginning which says that the pomegranate found in the City of David
        > is similar in form to the 400 decorative pomegranates which are described
        > in Solomons Temple according to the book of Kings 7:43 (should be v. 42
        > and cf also v, 20!) 
        >
        > Now this is absolute nonsense. The pomegranates in the temple descriptions
        > were part of the yakhin and Boaz pillar crowns which were made of bronze
        > and not ivory as is the new pomegranate. Also, the new pomegranate has a
        > dove sitting on it. Where is this desribed in I Kings 7 which, in fact,
        > doesnt describe the pomegranates at all, let alone the doves on top of
        > them, unless we somehow take hassebakah mentioned along with weharimmonim
        > as a corruption of ha$$obek (dove coop). At most one can say that the
        > newly discovered pomegranate can be, like pomegranates mentioned in
        > various biblical passages, a decorative motif known also from cultic
        > contexts.
        >
        > Victor Hurowitz
        >
        > BGU
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > On Fri, 9 Jan 2009, eliot braun wrote:
        >
        > > Haaretz in Hebrew has photos of a pomegranate and a bulla from excavations. Both are dated to the Iron Age. This is in Hebrew; perhaps it will appear in English later.
        > >
        > > http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/spages/1054101.html
        > >
        > > Eliot Braun, Ph D
        > > Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
        > > Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
        > > PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
        > > Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096
        > >
        > >
        > >     
        > >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • victor avigdor hurowitz
        I know of no biblical prohibition on the use of ivory in the Temple or the Tabernacle. ON the other hand, both temples are described in great detail and there
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 10, 2009
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          I know of no biblical prohibition on the use of ivory in the Temple or
          the Tabernacle. ON the other hand, both temples are described in great
          detail and there is no hint of the use of ivory in either, and the same
          can be said, as far as I recall about the temple of the future described
          by Ezekiel. In addition, Solomon made for himself a grandiose ivory
          throne as well as a palace of ivory (inall cases using the word $en which
          may be a shortened for of shenhab [tooth of elephant = Akkadian $in
          piri] if not a designation ivory not from elephants (is there
          such? i'm ignorant in these matters). Whether all these add up
          to a prohibition on ivory in cultic use
          or an aversion to it, is another question, but those who claim there was
          must IMHO bear the burden of proof. If there was such an aversion it may
          have been because the elephant would have been a cultically impure
          animal. I would suggest that it may have been rare or expensive, but that
          didn't prevent its use in other contexts so I won't suggest it.
          Best,
          Victor Hurowitz
          BGU



          On Fri, 9 Jan 2009, lmlkes wrote:

          > Dear Dr. Hurowitz, I am curious if the Bible tells us that Ivory is
          > not allowed in the Temple? In Samaria, archaeologists sure found a
          > lot of it, ca. 12,000 pieces, in excavations between 1908 and 1935.
          > The pieces of polished or carved Ivory came from the area of the Iron
          > Age palace and can be dated to the 9th or 8th Centuries B.C. A number
          > of carvings exhibit letters and inscriptions that can be identified
          > as Hebrew. So, we know that Royalty used Ivory. Is there any Biblical
          > reference that prohibits Priests from using Ivory? I Thank You For
          > Your Help and Your Time.
          > With Much Gratitude,
          > Sincerely Yours,
          > Michael Welch
          > Deltona, Florida
          >
          > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > This is an interesting article with exciting finds, but I am
          > bothered by
          > > the beginning which says that the pomegranate found in the City of
          > David
          > > is similar in form to the 400 decorative pomegranates which are
          > described
          > > in Solomons Temple according to the book of Kings 7:43 (should be
          > v. 42
          > > and cf also v, 20!)
          > >
          > > Now this is absolute nonsense. The pomegranates in the temple
          > descriptions
          > > were part of the yakhin and Boaz pillar crowns which were made of
          > bronze
          > > and not ivory At most one can say that the
          > > newly discovered pomegranate can be, like pomegranates mentioned in
          > > various biblical passages, a decorative motif known also from cultic
          > > contexts.
          > >
          > > Victor Hurowitz
          > >
          > > BGU
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • victor avigdor hurowitz
          To the best of my knowledge there is no specific biblical connection between ivory and pagan practices, although Amos 3:3; 6:4 seems to considered its various
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 10, 2009
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            To the best of my knowledge there is no specific biblical connection
            between ivory and pagan practices, although Amos 3:3; 6:4 seems to
            considered its various domestic uses a decadent accouterment of excessive
            wealth. Contrary to what your book says, ivory seems to be well thought of
            in most cases. Amos doesnt like conspicuous consumption, but this has
            nothing to do with paganism.
            Victor Hurowitz
            BGU




            On Fri, 9 Jan 2009, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

            > In the recent well-received book *The World After Us* (in which a naturalist/journalist explores the effect of humanity on the natural world), there is a brief discussion of the ivory trade (and the near extermination of elephants and hippopotami), that mentions in passing that ivory was disfavored in biblical accounts, being associated with pagan practices. (There's a copious bibliography but unfortunately no notes to connect the references with the assertions.)
            >
            > If this is correct, then it seems rather unlikely that decorative ivory pomegranates were to be found in the Temple -- as opposed to bronze or even gold ones. --
            > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
            >
            > ----- Original Message ----
            > > From: victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...>
            > > To: ANE <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
            > > Sent: Friday, January 9, 2009 6:36:16 AM
            > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] An provenienced pomegranate from Jerusalem/City of David excavations
            > >
            > > This is an interesting article with exciting finds, but I am bothered by
            > > the beginning which says that the pomegranate found in the City of David
            > > is similar in form to the 400 decorative pomegranates which are described
            > > in Solomons Temple according to the book of Kings 7:43 (should be v. 42
            > > and cf also v, 20!) 
            > >
            > > Now this is absolute nonsense. The pomegranates in the temple descriptions
            > > were part of the yakhin and Boaz pillar crowns which were made of bronze
            > > and not ivory as is the new pomegranate. Also, the new pomegranate has a
            > > dove sitting on it. Where is this desribed in I Kings 7 which, in fact,
            > > doesnt describe the pomegranates at all, let alone the doves on top of
            > > them, unless we somehow take hassebakah mentioned along with weharimmonim
            > > as a corruption of ha$$obek (dove coop). At most one can say that the
            > > newly discovered pomegranate can be, like pomegranates mentioned in
            > > various biblical passages, a decorative motif known also from cultic
            > > contexts.
            > >
            > > Victor Hurowitz
            > >
            > > BGU
            > >
            > > On Fri, 9 Jan 2009, eliot braun wrote:
            > >
            > > > Haaretz in Hebrew has photos of a pomegranate and a bulla from excavations.
            > > Both are dated to the Iron Age. This is in Hebrew; perhaps it will appear in
            > > English later.
            > > >
            > > > http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/spages/1054101.html
            >
          • George F Somsel
            I as well don t know of any prohibition of the use of ivory.  I do know, however, that one prophet spoke against its use as being conspicuous luxury when
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 10, 2009
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              I as well don't know of any prohibition of the use of ivory.  I do know, however, that one prophet spoke against its use as being conspicuous luxury when he felt that there were other more pressing matters.

               
              6     Alas for those who are at ease in Zion,
              and for those who feel secure on Mount Samaria,
              the notables of the first of the nations,
              to whom the house of Israel resorts!
              2     Cross over to Calneh, and see;
              from there go to Hamath the great;
              then go down to Gath of the Philistines.
              Are you better than these kingdoms?
              Or is your territory greater than their territory,
              3     O you that put far away the evil day,
              and bring near a reign of violence?
              4     Alas for those who lie on beds of ivory,
              and lounge on their couches,
              and eat lambs from the flock,
              and calves from the stall;
              5     who sing idle songs to the sound of the harp,
              and like David improvise on instruments of music;
              6     who drink wine from bowls,
              and anoint themselves with the finest oils,
              but are not grieved over the ruin of Joseph!
              7     Therefore they shall now be the first to go into exile,
              and the revelry of the loungers shall pass away.
              The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Am 6:1-7). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
               george
              gfsomsel


              … search for truth, hear truth,
              learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
              defend the truth till death.


              - Jan Hus
              _________




              ________________________________
              From: victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...>
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 10:56:13 AM
              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: An provenienced pomegranate from Jerusalem/City of David excavations


              I know of no biblical prohibition on the use of ivory in the Temple or
              the Tabernacle. ON the other hand, both temples are described in great
              detail and there is no hint of the use of ivory in either, and the same
              can be said, as far as I recall about the temple of the future described
              by Ezekiel. In addition, Solomon made for himself a grandiose ivory
              throne as well as a palace of ivory (inall cases using the word $en which
              may be a shortened for of shenhab [tooth of elephant = Akkadian $in
              piri] if not a designation ivory not from elephants (is there
              such? i'm ignorant in these matters). Whether all these add up
              to a prohibition on ivory in cultic use
              or an aversion to it, is another question, but those who claim there was
              must IMHO bear the burden of proof. If there was such an aversion it may
              have been because the elephant would have been a cultically impure
              animal. I would suggest that it may have been rare or expensive, but that
              didn't prevent its use in other contexts so I won't suggest it.
              Best,
              Victor Hurowitz
              BGU

              On Fri, 9 Jan 2009, lmlkes wrote:

              > Dear Dr. Hurowitz, I am curious if the Bible tells us that Ivory is
              > not allowed in the Temple? In Samaria, archaeologists sure found a
              > lot of it, ca. 12,000 pieces, in excavations between 1908 and 1935.
              > The pieces of polished or carved Ivory came from the area of the Iron
              > Age palace and can be dated to the 9th or 8th Centuries B.C. A number
              > of carvings exhibit letters and inscriptions that can be identified
              > as Hebrew. So, we know that Royalty used Ivory. Is there any Biblical
              > reference that prohibits Priests from using Ivory? I Thank You For
              > Your Help and Your Time.
              > With Much Gratitude,
              > Sincerely Yours,
              > Michael Welch
              > Deltona, Florida
              >
              > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > This is an interesting article with exciting finds, but I am
              > bothered by
              > > the beginning which says that the pomegranate found in the City of
              > David
              > > is similar in form to the 400 decorative pomegranates which are
              > described
              > > in Solomons Temple according to the book of Kings 7:43 (should be
              > v. 42
              > > and cf also v, 20!)
              > >
              > > Now this is absolute nonsense. The pomegranates in the temple
              > descriptions
              > > were part of the yakhin and Boaz pillar crowns which were made of
              > bronze
              > > and not ivory At most one can say that the
              > > newly discovered pomegranate can be, like pomegranates mentioned in
              > > various biblical passages, a decorative motif known also from cultic
              > > contexts.
              > >
              > > Victor Hurowitz
              > >
              > > BGU
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >






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