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Re: [ANE-2] Re: more on the ivory pomegranate

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  • David Hall
    From what I have read the inscription on the pomegranate was deepened or cleaned out with an iron tool.  Seems like a stupid error to alter or create an
    Message 1 of 22 , Dec 30, 2008
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      From what I have read the inscription on the pomegranate was deepened or cleaned out with an iron tool.  Seems like a stupid error to alter or create an inscription on an antique item.  Remember people were able to look at Golan's pieces and declare they were ancient.  They were abraded, and chemically altered such as occured over time or under the right conditions created in a lab.  For a sum of money one may buy a witness to give a false opinion, the world is full of people with false ideas, some of them have degrees.  If the police had not caught Golan with forged relics and a forgery lab, the case would have been more difficult to solve.  People were right to oppose the self provlaimed experts, the false prophets of historical authenticity, even when the case led to very wealthy anitquities dealers and a magazine publisher trying to cover his statements.
       
      David Q. Hall
      dqhall59@...
       
       
      David Q. Hall      

      --- On Tue, 12/30/08, arenmaeir <maeira@...> wrote:

      From: arenmaeir <maeira@...>
      Subject: [ANE-2] Re: more on the ivory pomegranate
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tuesday, December 30, 2008, 1:04 PM






      Ever think about the possibility that those who enabled the
      pomegranate to be "discovered" in Jerusalem did it so as to raise the
      price?

      Aren

      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, "lmlkes" <lmlkes@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dr. Maeir, You are going at the story backwards. Like many things
      > written, such as there was a "ring of forgers," this is inaccurate.
      > The Ivory Pomegranate was discovered by Dr. Andre Lemaire in 1979
      in
      > a Jerusalem antiquities shop. It was already completed. Dr. Lemaire
      > published the Ivory Pomegranate. The patinae was already made and
      > according to him is ancient when You examine it under the
      microscope.
      > No one was working from a $550,000 pile of money. This amount was
      > paid years later by the Israel Museum in late spring of 1988, after
      > Dr. Nahman Avigad flew to Zurich and authenticated the Ivory
      > Pomegranate. I Thank You For Your Time.
      > With Much Gratitude,
      > Sincerely Yours,
      > Michael Welch
      > Deltona, Florida
      >
      > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, "arenmaeir" <maeira@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Jack,
      > > kein Problem...
      > >
      > > 1) Ivory is no problem - that can be found at excavations and in
      > > antiquity stores.
      > >
      > > 2) Patina - with $500,000 one could find someone who would know
      how
      > > to make patina - or better, don't make it - just claim that there
      > is.
      > >
      > > 3) Inscribe it? What's the problem? Get the proper materials (not
      > > modern) to make the incisions, and inscribe according to any
      > standard
      > > table of relevant letter forms.
      > >
      > > So - will you send the half million so I can start working on
      them?
      > > :-)
      > >
      > > Aren
      > >
      > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, "Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Where will you get the ivory? How will you tool it? How will
      > you
      > > patina
      > > > it? How will you inscribe it?
      > > >
      > > > Jack
      > > >
      > > > Jack Kilmon
      > > > San Antonio, TX
      > >
      >


















      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • lmlkes
      Dear Dr. Maeir, Sure, the hope of anybody selling their antiquities in Jerusalem is to make money. It sold for $3,000. I Wish You The Best Of Everything, and I
      Message 2 of 22 , Dec 30, 2008
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        Dear Dr. Maeir, Sure, the hope of anybody selling their antiquities in
        Jerusalem is to make money. It sold for $3,000. I Wish You The Best Of
        Everything, and I Thank You For Your Time.
        With Much Gratitude,
        Sincerely Yours,
        Michael Welch
        Deltona, Florida

        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "arenmaeir" <maeira@...> wrote:
        >
        > Ever think about the possibility that those who enabled the
        > pomegranate to be "discovered" in Jerusalem did it so as to raise the
        > price?
        >
        > Aren
      • lmlkes
        Dear Dr. West, Since this Ivory Pomegranate sold for $3,000 in Jerusalem, I do not see any great amount of effort put into this particular object. I Thank You
        Message 3 of 22 , Dec 30, 2008
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          Dear Dr. West, Since this Ivory Pomegranate sold for $3,000 in
          Jerusalem, I do not see any great amount of effort put into this
          particular object. I Thank You For Your Time, and I Wish You The Very
          Best Of Everything.
          With Much Gratitude,
          Sincerely Yours,
          Michael Welch
          Deltona, Florida

          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Jim West <jwest@...> wrote:
          >
          > Aren's point, which you seem to have missed, is that anyone with the
          > funds could do the same and pass off the artifact as authentic.
        • lmlkes
          Dear Drs. Maeir and West, I wrote each of You a brief answer last evening when I returned home. But like I have said before, I have an old Windows 98 computer
          Message 4 of 22 , Dec 31, 2008
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            Dear Drs. Maeir and West, I wrote each of You a brief answer last
            evening when I returned home. But like I have said before, I have an
            old Windows 98 computer and some things get lost. I will try again.
            First, let me say that I do not see any conspiracy involved with the
            Ivory Pomegranate. It was discovered by Dr. Lemaire and sold in
            Jerusalem for $3,000. It took years for the price to get to $550,000.
            There was nothing unusual about the process, if you compare it to any
            other antiquity sold today. A small genuine artifact was bought for a
            reasonable price of $3,000. Then as its popularity increased, its
            value increased. This was the process. I still do not see a lot of
            effort going into making the Ivory Pomegranate. It was found already
            made by Dr. Lemaire in 1979. I Do Want To Wish Both Of You A Great
            2009. I Thank You Both For Your Time.
            With Much Gratitude,
            Sincerely Yours,
            Michael Welch
            Deltona, Florida


            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Jim West <jwest@...> wrote:
            >
            > Aren's point, which you seem to have missed, is that anyone with
            the
            > funds could do the same and pass off the artifact as authentic.
          • Jack Kilmon
            ... From: arenmaeir To: Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 6:28 AM Subject: [ANE-2] Re: more on the ivory
            Message 5 of 22 , Jan 1, 2009
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              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "arenmaeir" <maeira@...>
              To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 6:28 AM
              Subject: [ANE-2] Re: more on the ivory pomegranate


              > Jack,
              > kein Problem...
              >
              > 1) Ivory is no problem - that can be found at excavations and in
              > antiquity stores.

              Actually, from a scientific standpoint Ivory is a big problem. You would
              have to shape and carve and shape the ivory in a manner consistent with Iron
              Age II methods. Once shaped, however it would be done, the surface of your
              antique ivory (which by the way would have to have been alive in the Iron
              Age by radiometry) would be compromised and obvious through electron
              microscopy.


              >
              > 2) Patina - with $500,000 one could find someone who would know how
              > to make patina - or better, don't make it - just claim that there is.

              There are some things that form over centuries that cannot be duplicated no
              matter how much you have to spend. Patinas are like geological strata.
              Only time makes them. A slurry of ground stone slapped on an artifact and
              baked in an oven may fool an antiquities dealer or customer but not a
              competent materials analyst. In the cases of the "James Ossuary" and the
              pomegranate, if there is ancient patina in the inscriptions, they are
              genuine...that simple.

              >
              > 3) Inscribe it? What's the problem? Get the proper materials (not
              > modern) to make the incisions, and inscribe according to any standard
              > table of relevant letter forms.

              Its not that simple. An Iron Age scribe who has been writing and carving
              the writing of his own language most of his life is not the same as a modern
              forger whose language is not EBH. We cannot really be sure that the
              anchronistic syntax of the Jehoash Tablet is with certainty anachronistic in
              the absence of a larger sample base of contemporary texts and epigraphy. The
              letter forms are also just one element since the craft of epigraphy is
              another.

              >
              > So - will you send the half million so I can start working on them?

              You will need a scanning electron microscope, accelerated mass spectrometry
              and at least a 5 million dollar lab and still you will not be able to
              duplicate what centuries of time will do to the ivory. Make your artifact,
              get the best paleographer on the planet (Andre Lemaire will do) to inscribe
              it, bend space-time to go back to Iron IIb or c and hide the artifact. Come
              back to the present and go dig it up. By the way, while you are back in
              Iron II Jerusalem, take a snapshot of the temple for me. :)

              Jack


              Jack Kilmon
              San Antonio, TX


              > :-)
              >
              > Aren
              >
              > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Where will you get the ivory? How will you tool it? How will you
              > patina
              >> it? How will you inscribe it?
              >>
              >> Jack
              >>
              >> Jack Kilmon
              >> San Antonio, TX
            • Jack Kilmon
              My point, Jim, from a scientific standpoint, is that is just not true. No amount of money, and 500K is not enough, can produce a 3,000 year old patina
              Message 6 of 22 , Jan 1, 2009
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                My point, Jim, from a scientific standpoint, is that is just not true. No
                amount of money, and 500K is not enough, can produce a 3,000 year old patina
                deposited microscopically layer by layer.

                Jack Kilmon


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Jim West" <jwest@...>
                To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 11:31 AM
                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: more on the ivory pomegranate


                > Aren's point, which you seem to have missed, is that anyone with the
                > funds could do the same and pass off the artifact as authentic.
                >
                > lmlkes wrote:
                >>
                >> Dr. Maeir, You are going at the story backwards. Like many things
                >> written, such as there was a "ring of forgers," this is inaccurate.
                >> The Ivory Pomegranate was discovered by Dr. Andre Lemaire in 1979 in
                >> a Jerusalem antiquities shop. It was already completed. Dr. Lemaire
                >> published the Ivory Pomegranate. The patinae was already made and
                >> according to him is ancient when You examine it under the microscope.
                >> No one was working from a $550,000 pile of money. This amount was
                >> paid years later by the Israel Museum in late spring of 1988, after
                >> Dr. Nahman Avigad flew to Zurich and authenticated the Ivory
                >> Pomegranate. I Thank You For Your Time.
                >> With Much Gratitude,
                >> Sincerely Yours,
                >> Michael Welch
                >> Deltona, Florida
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ++++++
                >
                > Jim West, ThD
                >
                > http://jwest.wordpress.com - Blog
                > http://sites.google.com/site/biblicalstudiesresources/ - Biblical
                > Studies Resources
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Niels Peter Lemche
                On behalf of the moderators, This line is from now closed. If people ask why, a view on this mornings many mails will tell you why. Time is now 0800 European
                Message 7 of 22 , Jan 1, 2009
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                  On behalf of the moderators,

                  This line is from now closed. If people ask why, a view on this mornings
                  many mails will tell you why.

                  Time is now 0800 European Alpha time.

                  Niels Peter Lemche
                • victor
                  Thank you merciful NPL! Prof. Victor Avigdor Hurowitz Dept. of Bible, Archaeology and ANE Ben-Gurion University Beer-Sheva, Israel _____ From:
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jan 1, 2009
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                    Thank you merciful NPL!


                    Prof. Victor Avigdor Hurowitz
                    Dept. of Bible, Archaeology and ANE
                    Ben-Gurion University
                    Beer-Sheva, Israel

                    _____

                    From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    Niels Peter Lemche
                    Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 9:03 AM
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: SV: [ANE-2] Re: more on the ivory pomegranate_ closed thread

                    On behalf of the moderators,

                    This line is from now closed. If people ask why, a view on this mornings
                    many mails will tell you why.

                    Time is now 0800 European Alpha time.

                    Niels Peter Lemche



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