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SV: Fw: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor comment

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  • Niels Peter Lemche
    This dichotomy: true/false is inspired by a theological movement that had/s its home in North America, the Biblical Theological Movement which takes William
    Message 1 of 26 , Dec 3, 2008
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      This dichotomy: true/false is inspired by a theological movement that had/s its home in North America, the Biblical Theological Movement which takes William Foxwell Albright as its spiritual father. The direction is not a fundamentalist one but put stress on establishing historical truth for biblical events. Best example is John Bright, A History of Israel, from the 1950s, still one of the preferred textbooks in N. America in many colleges.

      From a theological point of view it is a hopeless affair to let religious truth be dependent on real events, since it has been possible to deconstruct many parts of the biblical narrative as historical records.

      From a historical point of view it is equally hopeless, because history is bent to follow biblical patterns of narrative.

      More on this in the fourth part of my The Old Testament between Theology and History (WJK, 2008).

      So if the minimalists are opposed to religion, it is to the religion alias theology of the Biblical Theology Movement which in the eyes of a European observer is primitive and misleading, and definitely out of tune with what we now know about biblical history, biblical narrative, and biblical religion.

      But it is easy to define your own position as the only correct one from a theological point of view, and then to say that people opposing it are against religion. Religious people have done that for thousands of years.

      If David Hall is interested in a brush-up of his knowledge of historical studies relating to biblical Israel/ancient Palestine, I recommend from a conservative (evangelical) point of view: Provan, Long, and Longman, a Biblical History of Israel (WJK, 2003), from the middle of the Road, W. Maxwell Miller, A History of Ancient Israel and Judah (2nd ed., WJK, 2006), and from the left of the road, Liverani, Israel's History and the History of Israel (Equinox, 2007), and my own book from 2008, the Appendix, The History of Israel or the History of Palestine.

      Niels Peter Lemche


      -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
      Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Christian Bogh
      Sendt: den 3 december 2008 21:27
      Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Emne: Re: Fw: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor comment

      Dear, Mr. David Hall

      I believe you missed my original point, because you still opt for the
      "true/false" dichtomy. I didn't say that it was claimed that Genesis 1
      is said to be 100% false (or Genesis for that matter.. as that is how you
      begin your post). I said that most people, believers or non-believers, would
      argue today that Genesis 1 (a very typical example, less likely to cause
      discontention, that's why I picked it) is void of actual history. And that
      is not the same as saying it is 100% false. It could be it was not written
      with an actual historical perspective in mind. This is from principel, you
      understand? I'm arguing from principle. We could be talking about any text,
      non-biblical as well. Concerning minimalism.. I know of no minimalist, but I
      could be wrong, who would argue using these true/false values that you have
      set up. None: That is if there is no history to be found in the Biblical
      text, say Gen 11, then it gets labeled as false. That's how the accusations
      of "minimalism is antagonist to religion" that professor Noll commented on
      are produced. From this assumption that minimalists are saying the Bible is
      false. Only anti-minimalists are saying that minimalists are saying
      that part of (or the whole) Bible is false. But lets ask professor Lemche,
      Davies, Thompson or West...

      PS: sorry for the poor English, but no time to proofread it, I'm afraid..

      best wishes,
      Christian Bogh
      stud. teol
      Copenhagen, Uni. of
      2008/12/3 David Hall <dqhall59@...>
    • David Hall
      What is the value of false religion?     If one has to blindly follow fabricated tales, what is the value of belief?  Mormans, Muslims, and Hindus may
      Message 2 of 26 , Dec 3, 2008
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        What is the value of false religion?  
         
        If one has to blindly follow fabricated tales, what is the value of belief?  Mormans, Muslims, and Hindus may all claim to be righteous, yet they cannot agree about what is right. 
         
        Six days of creation in Genesis and the fossil record shows millions of days of changing life forms.  New things are being brought forth every day.  God does not sleep.   
         
        There is some history in the Bible, there was some history in the archives of Egypt and Mesopotamia too.  There were laws and ethical commentary against adultery, murder, theft, etc. long before Philistine pottery started to disappear from the Jezreel Valley.  Some Egyptians claimed to love truth, they had figured out how to calculate the volume of a sphere and the volume of a pyramid by about 2000 B.C. before the supposed ttime of Abraham.  Many things have been discovered since, not all of them in Jerusalem, nor is the presence of God paraded around in an ark.  God does not live in a box.   
         
        True people do not forge myths and then tell people they were written by the hand of God. 
         
        David Q. Hall
        dqhall59@...
         
         

        --- On Wed, 12/3/08, Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...> wrote:

        From: Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...>
        Subject: SV: Fw: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor comment
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, December 3, 2008, 4:39 PM






        This dichotomy: true/false is inspired by a theological movement that had/s its home in North America, the Biblical Theological Movement which takes William Foxwell Albright as its spiritual father. The direction is not a fundamentalist one but put stress on establishing historical truth for biblical events. Best example is John Bright, A History of Israel, from the 1950s, still one of the preferred textbooks in N. America in many colleges.

        From a theological point of view it is a hopeless affair to let religious truth be dependent on real events, since it has been possible to deconstruct many parts of the biblical narrative as historical records.

        From a historical point of view it is equally hopeless, because history is bent to follow biblical patterns of narrative.

        More on this in the fourth part of my The Old Testament between Theology and History (WJK, 2008).

        So if the minimalists are opposed to religion, it is to the religion alias theology of the Biblical Theology Movement which in the eyes of a European observer is primitive and misleading, and definitely out of tune with what we now know about biblical history, biblical narrative, and biblical religion.

        But it is easy to define your own position as the only correct one from a theological point of view, and then to say that people opposing it are against religion. Religious people have done that for thousands of years.

        If David Hall is interested in a brush-up of his knowledge of historical studies relating to biblical Israel/ancient Palestine, I recommend from a conservative (evangelical) point of view: Provan, Long, and Longman, a Biblical History of Israel (WJK, 2003), from the middle of the Road, W. Maxwell Miller, A History of Ancient Israel and Judah (2nd ed., WJK, 2006), and from the left of the road, Liverani, Israel's History and the History of Israel (Equinox, 2007), and my own book from 2008, the Appendix, The History of Israel or the History of Palestine.

        Niels Peter Lemche

        -----Oprindelig meddelelse-- ---
        Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. com] På vegne af Christian Bogh
        Sendt: den 3 december 2008 21:27
        Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
        Emne: Re: Fw: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor comment

        Dear, Mr. David Hall

        I believe you missed my original point, because you still opt for the
        "true/false" dichtomy. I didn't say that it was claimed that Genesis 1
        is said to be 100% false (or Genesis for that matter.. as that is how you
        begin your post). I said that most people, believers or non-believers, would
        argue today that Genesis 1 (a very typical example, less likely to cause
        discontention, that's why I picked it) is void of actual history. And that
        is not the same as saying it is 100% false. It could be it was not written
        with an actual historical perspective in mind. This is from principel, you
        understand? I'm arguing from principle. We could be talking about any text,
        non-biblical as well. Concerning minimalism.. I know of no minimalist, but I
        could be wrong, who would argue using these true/false values that you have
        set up. None: That is if there is no history to be found in the Biblical
        text, say Gen 11, then it gets labeled as false. That's how the accusations
        of "minimalism is antagonist to religion" that professor Noll commented on
        are produced. From this assumption that minimalists are saying the Bible is
        false. Only anti-minimalists are saying that minimalists are saying
        that part of (or the whole) Bible is false. But lets ask professor Lemche,
        Davies, Thompson or West...

        PS: sorry for the poor English, but no time to proofread it, I'm afraid..

        best wishes,
        Christian Bogh
        stud. teol
        Copenhagen, Uni. of
        2008/12/3 David Hall <dqhall59@yahoo. com>


















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Niels Peter Lemche
        I think the problem is that you believe in historical truth and use this as a criterion. The real problem when it comes to the ANE (if not we better find
        Message 3 of 26 , Dec 4, 2008
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          I think the problem is that you believe in historical truth and use this as a criterion. The real problem when it comes to the ANE (if not we better find another list to discuss this) is that these people in their mythmaking included the ANE and formed their opinion of the ANE according to biblical beliefs. Biblical archaeology is a good (bad) example of this: Bible in one hand, spade in the other. The true mythmakers were modern people who turned the Bible into something which it is not, a history textbook. The idea of verbal inspiration is also pretty modern. You don't find it in the Bible itself.

          I suppose that a discussion about ancient mind would be appropriate also here, and ancient perceptions of history. And we should definitely pay attention to "the mythical mind" as opposed to the modern mind and not evaluate ancient intellectual products according to modern standards. Few Assyrians had read Kant!

          Putting up truth against lie is simply not a relevant comparison here.

          Niels Peter Lemche





          -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
          Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af David Hall
          Sendt: den 4 december 2008 02:23
          Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Emne: Re: SV: Fw: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor comment

          What is the value of false religion?  
           
          If one has to blindly follow fabricated tales, what is the value of belief?  Mormans, Muslims, and Hindus may all claim to be righteous, yet they cannot agree about what is right. 
           
          Six days of creation in Genesis and the fossil record shows millions of days of changing life forms.  New things are being brought forth every day.  God does not sleep.   
           
          There is some history in the Bible, there was some history in the archives of Egypt and Mesopotamia too.  There were laws and ethical commentary against adultery, murder, theft, etc. long before Philistine pottery started to disappear from the Jezreel Valley.  Some Egyptians claimed to love truth, they had figured out how to calculate the volume of a sphere and the volume of a pyramid by about 2000 B.C. before the supposed ttime of Abraham.  Many things have been discovered since, not all of them in Jerusalem, nor is the presence of God paraded around in an ark.  God does not live in a box.   
           
          True people do not forge myths and then tell people they were written by the hand of God. 
           
          David Q. Hall
          dqhall59@...
           
           
        • Frank Polak
          Dear Niels Peter, Ancient Mind and Mythical Mind are out since Malinowski s forced stay at the Solomon s islands, I believe. And the Modern Mind is out
          Message 4 of 26 , Dec 4, 2008
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            Dear Niels Peter,
            "Ancient Mind" and "Mythical Mind" are out since Malinowski's forced
            stay at the Solomon's islands, I believe.
            And the "Modern Mind" is out since French Post-structuralism (not
            that I attach any value to Parisian
            musings, but those thinkers demonstrate most clearly that the
            difference between "Myth M" and "Modern M"
            is negligible at best).
            Best Regards,
            Frank Polak
          • Tory Thorpe
            Dear Niels, ... In one of Paul s letters in the Christian Bible we find: All scripture is given by inspiration of God... (2 Tim. iii 16). Since Paul was
            Message 5 of 26 , Dec 4, 2008
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              Dear Niels,

              > The true mythmakers were modern people who turned the Bible into
              > something which it is not, a history textbook. The idea of
              > verbal inspiration is also pretty modern. You don't find
              > it in the Bible itself.

              In one of Paul's letters in the Christian Bible we find: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God..." (2 Tim. iii 16). Since Paul was presumably refering to the Jewish Bible, the idea of "verbal inspiration" is at least as old as Paul, no?

              > I suppose that a discussion about ancient mind would be
              > appropriate also here, and ancient perceptions of history.
              > And we should definitely pay attention to "the mythical
              > mind" as opposed to the modern mind and not evaluate
              > ancient intellectual products according to modern standards.
              > Few Assyrians had read Kant!

              I'm enjoying your new book.

              Tory Thorpe
              Modi'in, IL
            • Christian Bogh
              ... Bible and Spade ! :) http://www.biblearchaeology.org/publications/bibleandspade.aspx best, Christian Bogh stud. teol Copenhagen, Uni. of [Non-text portions
              Message 6 of 26 , Dec 4, 2008
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                Niels Peter Lemche said:


                > Biblical archaeology is a good (bad) example of this: Bible in one hand,
                > spade in the other.


                Bible and Spade ! :)

                http://www.biblearchaeology.org/publications/bibleandspade.aspx


                best,
                Christian Bogh
                stud. teol
                Copenhagen, Uni. of


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Niels Peter Lemche
                Dear Frank, Whatever you say, I have an article about it by Nick Wyatt in the next issue of SJOT, out very soon. So maybe it is not out after all. Niels Peter
                Message 7 of 26 , Dec 4, 2008
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                  Dear Frank,

                  Whatever you say, I have an article about it by Nick Wyatt in the next issue of SJOT, out very soon. So maybe it is not out after all.

                  Niels Peter Lemche

                  -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                  Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Frank Polak
                  Sendt: den 4 december 2008 12:07
                  Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Emne: Re: SV: SV: Fw: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor comment

                  Dear Niels Peter,
                  "Ancient Mind" and "Mythical Mind" are out since Malinowski's forced
                  stay at the Solomon's islands, I believe.
                  And the "Modern Mind" is out since French Post-structuralism (not
                  that I attach any value to Parisian
                  musings, but those thinkers demonstrate most clearly that the
                  difference between "Myth M" and "Modern M"
                  is negligible at best).
                  Best Regards,
                  Frank Polak

                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links




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                • Niels Peter Lemche
                  Verbal inspiration or just inspired, as Luther would say? Niels Peter Lemche ... Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Tory
                  Message 8 of 26 , Dec 4, 2008
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                    Verbal inspiration or just inspired, as Luther would say?

                    Niels Peter Lemche

                    -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                    Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Tory Thorpe
                    Sendt: den 4 december 2008 12:42
                    Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Emne: Re: SV: SV: Fw: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor comment

                    Dear Niels,

                    > The true mythmakers were modern people who turned the Bible into
                    > something which it is not, a history textbook. The idea of
                    > verbal inspiration is also pretty modern. You don't find
                    > it in the Bible itself.

                    In one of Paul's letters in the Christian Bible we find: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God..." (2 Tim. iii 16). Since Paul was presumably refering to the Jewish Bible, the idea of "verbal inspiration" is at least as old as Paul, no?

                    > I suppose that a discussion about ancient mind would be
                    > appropriate also here, and ancient perceptions of history.
                    > And we should definitely pay attention to "the mythical
                    > mind" as opposed to the modern mind and not evaluate
                    > ancient intellectual products according to modern standards.
                    > Few Assyrians had read Kant!

                    I'm enjoying your new book.

                    Tory Thorpe
                    Modi'in, IL




                    ------------------------------------

                    Yahoo! Groups Links




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                  • Niels Peter Lemche
                    Hilarious. It must make Hershel Shanks of the BAR really unhappy. Nels Peter Lemche ... Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af
                    Message 9 of 26 , Dec 4, 2008
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                      Hilarious. It must make Hershel Shanks of the BAR really unhappy.

                      Nels Peter Lemche

                      -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                      Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Christian Bogh
                      Sendt: den 4 december 2008 13:24
                      Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      Emne: Re: SV: SV: Fw: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor comment

                      Niels Peter Lemche said:


                      > Biblical archaeology is a good (bad) example of this: Bible in one hand,
                      > spade in the other.


                      Bible and Spade ! :)

                      http://www.biblearchaeology.org/publications/bibleandspade.aspx


                      best,
                      Christian Bogh
                      stud. teol
                      Copenhagen, Uni. of


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                      ------------------------------------

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                    • Frank Polak
                      Dear Niels Peter; It is OUT, and should be replaced by other categories. Frank Polak
                      Message 10 of 26 , Dec 4, 2008
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                        Dear Niels Peter;
                        It is OUT, and should be replaced by other categories.
                        Frank Polak

                        On Dec 4, 2008, at 1:38 PM, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

                        > Dear Frank,
                        >
                        > Whatever you say, I have an article about it by Nick Wyatt in the
                        > next issue of SJOT, out very soon. So maybe it is not out after all.
                        >
                        > Niels Peter Lemche
                        >
                        > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                        > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                        > af Frank Polak
                        > Sendt: den 4 december 2008 12:07
                        > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        > Emne: Re: SV: SV: Fw: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor
                        > comment
                        >
                        > Dear Niels Peter,
                        > "Ancient Mind" and "Mythical Mind" are out since Malinowski's forced
                        > stay at the Solomon's islands, I believe.
                        > And the "Modern Mind" is out since French Post-structuralism (not
                        > that I attach any value to Parisian
                        > musings, but those thinkers demonstrate most clearly that the
                        > difference between "Myth M" and "Modern M"
                        > is negligible at best).
                        > Best Regards,
                        > Frank Polak
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                        > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                        > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.13/1827 - Release Date:
                        > 2008-12-03 17:41
                        >
                        >
                      • Niels Peter Lemche
                        Have you discussed this with Wyatt? Niels Peter Lemche ... Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Frank Polak Sendt: den 4
                        Message 11 of 26 , Dec 4, 2008
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                          Have you discussed this with Wyatt?

                          Niels Peter Lemche

                          -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                          Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Frank Polak
                          Sendt: den 4 december 2008 14:57
                          Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          Emne: Re: SV: SV: SV: Fw: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor comment

                          Dear Niels Peter;
                          It is OUT, and should be replaced by other categories.
                          Frank Polak

                          On Dec 4, 2008, at 1:38 PM, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

                          > Dear Frank,
                          >
                          > Whatever you say, I have an article about it by Nick Wyatt in the
                          > next issue of SJOT, out very soon. So maybe it is not out after all.
                          >
                          > Niels Peter Lemche
                          >
                          > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                          > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                          > af Frank Polak
                          > Sendt: den 4 december 2008 12:07
                          > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          > Emne: Re: SV: SV: Fw: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor
                          > comment
                          >
                          > Dear Niels Peter,
                          > "Ancient Mind" and "Mythical Mind" are out since Malinowski's forced
                          > stay at the Solomon's islands, I believe.
                          > And the "Modern Mind" is out since French Post-structuralism (not
                          > that I attach any value to Parisian
                          > musings, but those thinkers demonstrate most clearly that the
                          > difference between "Myth M" and "Modern M"
                          > is negligible at best).
                          > Best Regards,
                          > Frank Polak
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          > No virus found in this incoming message.
                          > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                          > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.13/1827 - Release Date:
                          > 2008-12-03 17:41
                          >
                          >


                          ------------------------------------

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                          No virus found in this incoming message.
                          Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                          Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.13/1827 - Release Date: 2008-12-03 17:41
                        • Emanuel O. Pfoh
                          Dear Frank Polak, I guess that any ethnographic report on the communities of natives which still--despite modernisation processes--livein Central and South
                          Message 12 of 26 , Dec 4, 2008
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                            Dear Frank Polak,

                            I guess that any ethnographic report on the communities of natives which still--despite modernisation processes--livein Central and South America (lots of Umbanda temples here in Argentina), Africa and South-East Asia would tell you that the mythic mind is still alive. We even don't need to look for the so-called 'contemporary primitives' of old: any research on the symbolic worldview of pentecostalists or New Religious Movements would in fact detect the heart-beatings of the mythic mind.
                            We may call it differently, and we may re-define its nature and dynamic, but it's still the mythic mind.
                            Best regards,

                            Emanuel Pfoh


                            --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Frank Polak <frankha@...> wrote:
                            From: Frank Polak <frankha@...>
                            Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: Fw: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor comment
                            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 10:57 AM











                            Dear Niels Peter;

                            It is OUT, and should be replaced by other categories.

                            Frank Polak



                            On Dec 4, 2008, at 1:38 PM, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:



                            > Dear Frank,

                            >

                            > Whatever you say, I have an article about it by Nick Wyatt in the

                            > next issue of SJOT, out very soon. So maybe it is not out after all.

                            >

                            > Niels Peter Lemche

                            >

                            > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-- ---

                            > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. com] På vegne

                            > af Frank Polak

                            > Sendt: den 4 december 2008 12:07

                            > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com

                            > Emne: Re: SV: SV: Fw: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor

                            > comment

                            >

                            > Dear Niels Peter,

                            > "Ancient Mind" and "Mythical Mind" are out since Malinowski's forced

                            > stay at the Solomon's islands, I believe.

                            > And the "Modern Mind" is out since French Post-structuralism (not

                            > that I attach any value to Parisian

                            > musings, but those thinkers demonstrate most clearly that the

                            > difference between "Myth M" and "Modern M"

                            > is negligible at best).

                            > Best Regards,

                            > Frank Polak

                            >

                            > ------------ --------- --------- ------

                            >

                            > Yahoo! Groups Links

                            >

                            > No virus found in this incoming message.

                            > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg com

                            > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.13/1827 - Release Date:

                            > 2008-12-03 17:41

                            >

                            >





























                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Niels Peter Lemche
                            Dear Manu, Maybe Frank was only asking for a better term: La pensée sauvage? (to honour a great man who turned 100 a few days ago [28th of Nov]). The ball is
                            Message 13 of 26 , Dec 4, 2008
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                              Dear Manu,

                              Maybe Frank was only asking for a better term: La pensée sauvage? (to honour a great man who turned 100 a few days ago [28th of Nov]). The ball is on Frank's part of the game just now, as I would like Frank to expand on this.

                              A pre-Kantian way of rationalizing.

                              Niels Peter Lemche

                              -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                              Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Emanuel O. Pfoh
                              Sendt: den 4 december 2008 15:05
                              Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                              Emne: Re: SV: SV: SV: Fw: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor comment

                              Dear Frank Polak,

                              I guess that any ethnographic report on the communities of natives which still--despite modernisation processes--livein Central and South America (lots of Umbanda temples here in Argentina), Africa and South-East Asia would tell you that the mythic mind is still alive. We even don't need to look for the so-called 'contemporary primitives' of old: any research on the symbolic worldview of pentecostalists or New Religious Movements would in fact detect the heart-beatings of the mythic mind.
                              We may call it differently, and we may re-define its nature and dynamic, but it's still the mythic mind.
                              Best regards,

                              Emanuel Pfoh


                              --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Frank Polak <frankha@...> wrote:
                              From: Frank Polak <frankha@...>
                              Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: Fw: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor comment
                              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 10:57 AM











                              Dear Niels Peter;

                              It is OUT, and should be replaced by other categories.

                              Frank Polak



                              On Dec 4, 2008, at 1:38 PM, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:



                              > Dear Frank,

                              >

                              > Whatever you say, I have an article about it by Nick Wyatt in the

                              > next issue of SJOT, out very soon. So maybe it is not out after all.

                              >

                              > Niels Peter Lemche

                              >

                              > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-- ---

                              > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. com] På vegne

                              > af Frank Polak

                              > Sendt: den 4 december 2008 12:07

                              > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com

                              > Emne: Re: SV: SV: Fw: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor

                              > comment

                              >

                              > Dear Niels Peter,

                              > "Ancient Mind" and "Mythical Mind" are out since Malinowski's forced

                              > stay at the Solomon's islands, I believe.

                              > And the "Modern Mind" is out since French Post-structuralism (not

                              > that I attach any value to Parisian

                              > musings, but those thinkers demonstrate most clearly that the

                              > difference between "Myth M" and "Modern M"

                              > is negligible at best).

                              > Best Regards,

                              > Frank Polak

                              >

                              > ------------ --------- --------- ------

                              >

                              > Yahoo! Groups Links

                              >

                              > No virus found in this incoming message.

                              > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg com

                              > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.13/1827 - Release Date:

                              > 2008-12-03 17:41

                              >

                              >





























                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                              ------------------------------------

                              Yahoo! Groups Links




                              No virus found in this incoming message.
                              Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                              Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.13/1827 - Release Date: 2008-12-03 17:41
                            • Frank Polak
                              Dear Emanuel and Niels Peter, In my view we have to distinguish between a symbolic world view (not only pentecostical, but also, for instance, marxistic) and a
                              Message 14 of 26 , Dec 4, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Dear Emanuel and Niels Peter,
                                In my view we have to distinguish between a symbolic world view (not
                                only pentecostical,
                                but also, for instance, marxistic) and a 'mythic mind.' After all,
                                did Malinowski
                                not show that people with a strong belief in magic and in spirits
                                were discussing matters
                                of procreation as rationally as he did (albeit not in a scientific,
                                biological way)? And were they not superior
                                ship engineers (at least for their state of metallurgy)? It is not
                                the mind (and not even the
                                episteme, I would say; Foucault mixed it up), but the world view. You
                                might say that that is a >mind set<,
                                but it is not the personal mind making things up, but rather the
                                intellectual tradition, as far as its contents have not been
                                subjected to systematic scientific criticism).
                                A notion like >La Pensee Sauvage< also seems difficult to defend.
                                Totemism, for instance (the 'mentality' of which is not too
                                different from that of football supporting), can easily be analyzed
                                in terms of ethno-symbolism.
                                One of the difficult (OK, I'll not to exaggerate, maybe significant)
                                stages in my growing up was the recognition
                                that the Marxian notion of a revolution that would set man free, is
                                hardly more than the ideal of classical Judaism
                                >LeTaQQeN (wLam BeMaLKuT $aDDaY<, (to repair the world in the
                                Kingdom of God). But the Marxian notion
                                claims 'scientific' status, using 'science' (at least at times) in a
                                sense that would rather fit the magic way of thought.
                                May I say that to my mind it takes inteliigence, determination and
                                much knowledge to maintain yourself in desert (something i used to
                                have some
                                acquaintance with) or jungle without modern technology and logistic
                                support?
                                Best regards,
                                Frank Polak


                                On Dec 4, 2008, at 3:05 PM, Emanuel O. Pfoh wrote:

                                > Dear Frank Polak,
                                >
                                > I guess that any ethnographic report on the communities of natives
                                > which still--despite modernisation processes--livein Central and
                                > South America (lots of Umbanda temples here in Argentina), Africa
                                > and South-East Asia would tell you that the mythic mind is still
                                > alive. We even don't need to look for the so-called 'contemporary
                                > primitives' of old: any research on the symbolic worldview of
                                > pentecostalists or New Religious Movements would in fact detect the
                                > heart-beatings of the mythic mind.
                                > We may call it differently, and we may re-define its nature and
                                > dynamic, but it's still the mythic mind.
                                > Best regards,
                                >
                                > Emanuel Pfoh
                                >
                                > --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Frank Polak <frankha@...> wrote:
                                > From: Frank Polak <frankha@...>
                                > Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: Fw: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to
                                > a minor comment
                                > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                > Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 10:57 AM
                                >
                                > Dear Niels Peter;
                                >
                                > It is OUT, and should be replaced by other categories.
                                >
                                > Frank Polak
                                >
                                > On Dec 4, 2008, at 1:38 PM, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:
                                >
                                > > Dear Frank,
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > Whatever you say, I have an article about it by Nick Wyatt in the
                                >
                                > > next issue of SJOT, out very soon. So maybe it is not out after all.
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > Niels Peter Lemche
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-- ---
                                >
                                > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. com] På vegne
                                >
                                > > af Frank Polak
                                >
                                > > Sendt: den 4 december 2008 12:07
                                >
                                > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                                >
                                > > Emne: Re: SV: SV: Fw: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor
                                >
                                > > comment
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > Dear Niels Peter,
                                >
                                > > "Ancient Mind" and "Mythical Mind" are out since Malinowski's forced
                                >
                                > > stay at the Solomon's islands, I believe.
                                >
                                > > And the "Modern Mind" is out since French Post-structuralism (not
                                >
                                > > that I attach any value to Parisian
                                >
                                > > musings, but those thinkers demonstrate most clearly that the
                                >
                                > > difference between "Myth M" and "Modern M"
                                >
                                > > is negligible at best).
                                >
                                > > Best Regards,
                                >
                                > > Frank Polak
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                >
                                > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg com
                                >
                                > > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.13/1827 - Release Date:
                                >
                                > > 2008-12-03 17:41
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • Peter T. Daniels
                                Who got the BAR review copy? I looked over it at amazon -- over 500 pages, with very short essays on just about every relevant topic.  I look forward to
                                Message 15 of 26 , Dec 4, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Who got the BAR review copy?

                                  I looked over it at amazon -- over 500 pages, with very short essays on just about every relevant topic.  I look forward to reading it.
                                  --
                                  Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
                                  ________________________________
                                  From: Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...>
                                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 7:46:54 AM
                                  Subject: SV: SV: SV: Fw: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor comment

                                  Hilarious. It must make Hershel Shanks of the BAR really unhappy.

                                  Nels Peter Lemche

                                  -----Oprindelig meddelelse-- ---
                                  Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. com] På vegne af Christian Bogh
                                  Sendt: den 4 december 2008 13:24
                                  Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                                  Emne: Re: SV: SV: Fw: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor comment

                                  Niels Peter Lemche said:

                                  > Biblical archaeology is a good (bad) example of this: Bible in one hand,
                                  > spade in the other.

                                  Bible and Spade ! :)

                                  http://www.biblearc haeology. org/publications /bibleandspade. aspx
                                • Emanuel O. Pfoh
                                  Dear Frank, I agree with some of your comments. Malinowski showed (I guess it was in his Crime and custom in primitive society [1926]) that agency can in fact
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Dec 4, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Dear Frank,

                                    I agree with some of your comments. Malinowski showed (I guess it was in his Crime and custom in primitive society [1926]) that agency can in fact bend the structure, that is, that what natives used to say about their beliefs and social behaviour was not always corroborated by him (Malinowski). Yet, one thing is still relevant: why do these people have their myths? Why do they keep their rituals? I believe that it's in the practice, more than in myths, that the mythic mind is evidenced.
                                    And it was M. Eliade in his Myth and Reality [1962] who made a comparison between Christian escatology and Marxist escatology, so here we may find another clue regarding the presence of mythic dynamics in modern ideologies.
                                    Now, here we are dealing with two yet intertwined aspects of intellectual history: a) how the mythic mind was active in the ancient world (the ANE) and how can we know of this presence from the extant mythic text (no ethnographic research possible unfortunately); and b) how was the pre-mondern (mythic) worldview affected by the spread of the Enlightenment's principles of reality (Newton, Kant).

                                    My stand is that, in order to understand how ANE people lived and what the believed, one must un-pack the modern, post-Enlightenment principles that rule our lives and get back to that ancient mythic mind that was part of the worldview of ancient people.
                                    No doubt, the ancient Egyptians who planned and built the pyramids knew a lot about architecture, mathematics, etc., and they were most logical engineers. But at the end of the day the recalled that they were contributing to the eternal rest of their living god on earth, the pharaoh, and making sure that maat prevail over chaos.

                                    Best regards,

                                    Emanuel Pfoh






















                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Frank Polak
                                    Dear Emanuel, I see hat you are saying, but I also sense some difficulties. On the one hand, the light metaphor of Enlightenment itself entails a myth of
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Dec 4, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Dear Emanuel,
                                      I see hat you are saying, but I also sense some difficulties. On the
                                      one hand, the light metaphor of
                                      Enlightenment itself entails a myth of knowledge. Kant's >synthesis a
                                      priori< was palatable only in
                                      a period in which the only axiom system was the Euclidean one, but in
                                      the nineteenth century its
                                      metaphysical nature (and thus its 'myth') became obvious with the
                                      advent of various non-Euclidean systems.
                                      And in Newton's thought physical theory is thoroughly framed by
                                      deistic theology.
                                      So to describe modern thought as non-mythical is, in my view. more
                                      than a bit misleading. Misleading ourselves that is.
                                      Just think of the thought power of men like Plato and Aristotle, and
                                      the residues of pure myth in their thought. They were
                                      eminently rational and scientific, but also thought in mythical terms.

                                      On the other hand, if one envisions a different mind when approaching
                                      antiquity, one immediately places the
                                      'ancients' in a position which is not ours. But this attitude
                                      actually precludes a better understanding of, e.g,
                                      Sumerians, Assyrians, Phoenicians, and other People/Societies/
                                      Communities/Cultures. We cannot get a step further
                                      as long as we do not understand that those PSCC, when viewed on their
                                      own terms, are as logical as we are in our terms.
                                      If there is place for relativism (which in itself should not be taken
                                      too serious), it is for self-relativization of the scholarly
                                      community. Their (with apologies for the collective) worldview is
                                      different from ours, but demands our respect, and our
                                      insight into the infinite differentiation (an insight which also is
                                      thwarted by the collectivity of the 'mythic mind').

                                      My insights on this point are not so much related to Carlo Ginzberg's
                                      'worms,' but rather to what I saw in a documentary
                                      movie about the cattle market in Northeast Holland, where a 'modern,
                                      urbane' trader could not negotiate with
                                      the local peasants (actually agricultural entrepreneurs of course),
                                      because he could not understand their way of
                                      bargaining by hand clash, and since they did not understand his
                                      procedures, they could not deal one with another.
                                      The local agricultural entrepreneurs have their own culture, which is
                                      not better understood by any appellation
                                      we might apply to them.
                                      By the same token they also have (or rather had) their own literary
                                      culture, in which the oral element is (or was, I fear) very importanrt,
                                      but which also had its sophistication.
                                      And think of the supreme sophistication of characterization and
                                      description of inner life in the Iliad (Achilles, Hector, Odysseus)
                                      and the Odyssea (Odysseus, Penelope, and their meeting; Telemachos),
                                      in any case in the centuries preceding Bacchyludes,
                                      and the great Attic dramaturgs and historians. The psychological
                                      insight of these poets, and the power of their imagination
                                      could never be covered by the notion of 'mythical mind.'
                                      There is something different going on. Let us follow Ranke: every
                                      PSCC is immediate to God (unmittelbar zu Gott).

                                      If we think of the period of Hammurabi, we have to think, not only of
                                      all kinds of mythucal thought patterns, but
                                      also on very clever and determined negotiation tactics vis-a-vis
                                      Zimrilim's envoys (I just had a paper on this subject
                                      in the Shalom Paul Jubilee Volume, Birkat Shalom, just out in Winona
                                      Lake). Rationality and sophistication
                                      are not incompatible with a mythic-magic worldview. Even if in our
                                      SCC such worldviews could not be held (and even
                                      though unbeknown to us we entertain similar views in our way).
                                      Best regards,
                                      Frank Polak





                                      On Dec 4, 2008, at 4:28 PM, Emanuel O. Pfoh wrote:

                                      > Dear Frank,
                                      >
                                      > I agree with some of your comments. Malinowski showed (I guess it
                                      > was in his Crime and custom in primitive society [1926]) that
                                      > agency can in fact bend the structure, that is, that what natives
                                      > used to say about their beliefs and social behaviour was not always
                                      > corroborated by him (Malinowski). Yet, one thing is still relevant:
                                      > why do these people have their myths? Why do they keep their
                                      > rituals? I believe that it's in the practice, more than in myths,
                                      > that the mythic mind is evidenced.
                                      > And it was M. Eliade in his Myth and Reality [1962] who made a
                                      > comparison between Christian escatology and Marxist escatology, so
                                      > here we may find another clue regarding the presence of mythic
                                      > dynamics in modern ideologies.
                                      > Now, here we are dealing with two yet intertwined aspects of
                                      > intellectual history: a) how the mythic mind was active in the
                                      > ancient world (the ANE) and how can we know of this presence from
                                      > the extant mythic text (no ethnographic research possible
                                      > unfortunately); and b) how was the pre-mondern (mythic) worldview
                                      > affected by the spread of the Enlightenment's principles of reality
                                      > (Newton, Kant).
                                      >
                                      > My stand is that, in order to understand how ANE people lived and
                                      > what the believed, one must un-pack the modern, post-Enlightenment
                                      > principles that rule our lives and get back to that ancient mythic
                                      > mind that was part of the worldview of ancient people.
                                      > No doubt, the ancient Egyptians who planned and built the pyramids
                                      > knew a lot about architecture, mathematics, etc., and they were
                                      > most logical engineers. But at the end of the day the recalled that
                                      > they were contributing to the eternal rest of their living god on
                                      > earth, the pharaoh, and making sure that maat prevail over chaos.
                                      >
                                      > Best regards,
                                      >
                                      > Emanuel Pfoh
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Emanuel O. Pfoh
                                      Dear Frank, now I seem to be more in agreement with you on some points. Rationality and sophistication are not incompatible with a mythic-magic worldview .
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Dec 4, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Dear Frank,

                                        now I seem to be more in agreement with you on some points. "Rationality and sophistication are not incompatible with a mythic-magic worldview". Agreed, of course. And plenty of Mesopotamian (and Egyptian) evidence is proof of that, as you indicate.
                                        Yet, I think we must sharpen our analytical tools and concepts in order to avoid a sense that anything pre-18th cent. was submerged in a 'mythopoetic fog' (as someone criticised my views in another list--otherwise it's a cool name for a blog) but also without conceiving pre-modern people just as modern is short pants.
                                        I liked your reference to Carlo Ginzburg.
                                        Best regards,

                                        Emanuel Pfoh


                                        --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Frank Polak <frankha@...> wrote:
                                        From: Frank Polak <frankha@...>
                                        Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Mythic Mind (was:Tardy response...)
                                        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 6:12 PM











                                        Dear Emanuel,

                                        I see hat you are saying, but I also sense some difficulties. On the

                                        one hand, the light metaphor of

                                        Enlightenment itself entails a myth of knowledge. Kant's >synthesis a

                                        priori< was palatable only in

                                        a period in which the only axiom system was the Euclidean one, but in

                                        the nineteenth century its

                                        metaphysical nature (and thus its 'myth') became obvious with the

                                        advent of various non-Euclidean systems.

                                        And in Newton's thought physical theory is thoroughly framed by

                                        deistic theology.

                                        So to describe modern thought as non-mythical is, in my view. more

                                        than a bit misleading. Misleading ourselves that is.

                                        Just think of the thought power of men like Plato and Aristotle, and

                                        the residues of pure myth in their thought. They were

                                        eminently rational and scientific, but also thought in mythical terms.



                                        On the other hand, if one envisions a different mind when approaching

                                        antiquity, one immediately places the

                                        'ancients' in a position which is not ours. But this attitude

                                        actually precludes a better understanding of, e.g,

                                        Sumerians, Assyrians, Phoenicians, and other People/Societies/

                                        Communities/ Cultures. We cannot get a step further

                                        as long as we do not understand that those PSCC, when viewed on their

                                        own terms, are as logical as we are in our terms.

                                        If there is place for relativism (which in itself should not be taken

                                        too serious), it is for self-relativization of the scholarly

                                        community. Their (with apologies for the collective) worldview is

                                        different from ours, but demands our respect, and our

                                        insight into the infinite differentiation (an insight which also is

                                        thwarted by the collectivity of the 'mythic mind').



                                        My insights on this point are not so much related to Carlo Ginzberg's

                                        'worms,' but rather to what I saw in a documentary

                                        movie about the cattle market in Northeast Holland, where a 'modern,

                                        urbane' trader could not negotiate with

                                        the local peasants (actually agricultural entrepreneurs of course),

                                        because he could not understand their way of

                                        bargaining by hand clash, and since they did not understand his

                                        procedures, they could not deal one with another.

                                        The local agricultural entrepreneurs have their own culture, which is

                                        not better understood by any appellation

                                        we might apply to them.

                                        By the same token they also have (or rather had) their own literary

                                        culture, in which the oral element is (or was, I fear) very importanrt,

                                        but which also had its sophistication.

                                        And think of the supreme sophistication of characterization and

                                        description of inner life in the Iliad (Achilles, Hector, Odysseus)

                                        and the Odyssea (Odysseus, Penelope, and their meeting; Telemachos),

                                        in any case in the centuries preceding Bacchyludes,

                                        and the great Attic dramaturgs and historians. The psychological

                                        insight of these poets, and the power of their imagination

                                        could never be covered by the notion of 'mythical mind.'

                                        There is something different going on. Let us follow Ranke: every

                                        PSCC is immediate to God (unmittelbar zu Gott).



                                        If we think of the period of Hammurabi, we have to think, not only of

                                        all kinds of mythucal thought patterns, but

                                        also on very clever and determined negotiation tactics vis-a-vis

                                        Zimrilim's envoys (I just had a paper on this subject

                                        in the Shalom Paul Jubilee Volume, Birkat Shalom, just out in Winona

                                        Lake). Rationality and sophistication

                                        are not incompatible with a mythic-magic worldview. Even if in our

                                        SCC such worldviews could not be held (and even

                                        though unbeknown to us we entertain similar views in our way).

                                        Best regards,

                                        Frank Polak



                                        On Dec 4, 2008, at 4:28 PM, Emanuel O. Pfoh wrote:



                                        > Dear Frank,

                                        >

                                        > I agree with some of your comments. Malinowski showed (I guess it

                                        > was in his Crime and custom in primitive society [1926]) that

                                        > agency can in fact bend the structure, that is, that what natives

                                        > used to say about their beliefs and social behaviour was not always

                                        > corroborated by him (Malinowski) . Yet, one thing is still relevant:

                                        > why do these people have their myths? Why do they keep their

                                        > rituals? I believe that it's in the practice, more than in myths,

                                        > that the mythic mind is evidenced.

                                        > And it was M. Eliade in his Myth and Reality [1962] who made a

                                        > comparison between Christian escatology and Marxist escatology, so

                                        > here we may find another clue regarding the presence of mythic

                                        > dynamics in modern ideologies.

                                        > Now, here we are dealing with two yet intertwined aspects of

                                        > intellectual history: a) how the mythic mind was active in the

                                        > ancient world (the ANE) and how can we know of this presence from

                                        > the extant mythic text (no ethnographic research possible

                                        > unfortunately) ; and b) how was the pre-mondern (mythic) worldview

                                        > affected by the spread of the Enlightenment' s principles of reality

                                        > (Newton, Kant).

                                        >

                                        > My stand is that, in order to understand how ANE people lived and

                                        > what the believed, one must un-pack the modern, post-Enlightenment

                                        > principles that rule our lives and get back to that ancient mythic

                                        > mind that was part of the worldview of ancient people.

                                        > No doubt, the ancient Egyptians who planned and built the pyramids

                                        > knew a lot about architecture, mathematics, etc., and they were

                                        > most logical engineers. But at the end of the day the recalled that

                                        > they were contributing to the eternal rest of their living god on

                                        > earth, the pharaoh, and making sure that maat prevail over chaos.

                                        >

                                        > Best regards,

                                        >

                                        > Emanuel Pfoh

                                        >

                                        >

                                        >

                                        >

                                        >

                                        >

                                        >

                                        >

                                        >

                                        >

                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                        >

                                        >

                                        >





























                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Emanuel O. Pfoh
                                        Frank, Sorry. I m aware that your reference WASN T to C. Ginzburg. I meant to say the tale of the bargaining peasant. Good anthropological insight. Emanuel
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Dec 4, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Frank,

                                          Sorry. I'm aware that your reference WASN'T to C. Ginzburg. I meant to say the tale of the bargaining peasant. Good anthropological insight.

                                          Emanuel Pfoh






















                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • David Hall
                                          ... Jeremiah wrote:   How can you say, We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD, when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?  
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Dec 4, 2008
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            >In one of Paul's letters in the Christian Bible we find: "All scripture is given by inspiration of >God..." (2 Tim. iii 16). Since Paul was presumably refering to the Jewish Bible, the idea of >"verbal inspiration" is at least as old as Paul, no?

                                            Jeremiah wrote:
                                             
                                            "How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?"  (Jer. 8.8)
                                             
                                            Already Paul had recommended Gentiles seek God not through getting circumcised, an outward sign, but through repentance/reform an inward change.  He was accused of being lawless or an outlaw by some of the Orthodox.  Not sure what he meant by scripture.  Suppose it may have had a meaning such as non-fiction.  If he was going by the Torah he would have required the Gentiles be circumcised.  There were also instances of Jews of these times eating food that was not kosher and going to Gentile homes to teach in spite of the risk of being accused of not observing ritual purity.   
                                             
                                            David Q. Hall
                                            dqhall59@...

                                             


                                            --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Tory Thorpe <torythrp@...> wrote:

                                            From: Tory Thorpe <torythrp@...>
                                            Subject: Re: SV: SV: Fw: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor comment
                                            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                            Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 6:41 AM






                                            Dear Niels,

                                            > The true mythmakers were modern people who turned the Bible into
                                            > something which it is not, a history textbook. The idea of
                                            > verbal inspiration is also pretty modern. You don't find
                                            > it in the Bible itself.

                                            In one of Paul's letters in the Christian Bible we find: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God..." (2 Tim. iii 16). Since Paul was presumably refering to the Jewish Bible, the idea of "verbal inspiration" is at least as old as Paul, no?

                                            > I suppose that a discussion about ancient mind would be
                                            > appropriate also here, and ancient perceptions of history.
                                            > And we should definitely pay attention to "the mythical
                                            > mind" as opposed to the modern mind and not evaluate
                                            > ancient intellectual products according to modern standards.
                                            > Few Assyrians had read Kant!

                                            I'm enjoying your new book.

                                            Tory Thorpe
                                            Modi'in, IL


















                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Tory Thorpe
                                            ... He obviously meant what was then the canonical Jewish Bible of his day. His words in 2 Tim. iii 16 reflect the thinking of many religious Jews of that
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Dec 4, 2008
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                                              --- On Thu, 12/4/08, David Hall <dqhall59@...> wrote:

                                              > Already Paul had recommended Gentiles seek God not through
                                              > getting circumcised, an outward sign, but through
                                              > repentance/reform an inward change.  He was accused of
                                              > being lawless or an outlaw by some of the Orthodox.  Not
                                              > sure what he meant by scripture.  Suppose it may have had
                                              > a meaning such as non-fiction.  If he was going by
                                              > the Torah he would have required the Gentiles be
                                              > circumcised.  

                                              He obviously meant what was then "the" canonical Jewish Bible of his day. His words in 2 Tim. iii 16 reflect the thinking of many religious Jews of that time, namely that the Jewish Bible is a verbally inspired text - and a historical text from which history may be mined and reconstructed (cf. Seder Olam Rabbah). This is not a modern concept invented by Christian fundamentalists or Albright. Your last sentence is a little weird. One of Paul's problems within Jewish circles was the accusation of teaching Jews, not Gentiles, not to be circumcised. I can't see how that has any real relation to the view, and Paul's view (a shared myth), that the Jewish scriptures are inspired and formed the basis of the religious Jewish worldview at the time 2 Tim. iii 16 was penned.

                                              Tory Thorpe
                                            • Frank Polak
                                              Dear Emanuel, So we agree: each according to his own, with no pre-classification. Best, Frank
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Dec 5, 2008
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                                                Dear Emanuel,
                                                So we agree: each according to his own, with no pre-classification.
                                                Best,
                                                Frank
                                              • Cami McCraw
                                                You mention David Rohl s work in the thread below. It took two years but his special TV program Pharaohs & Kings was re-released last September on DVD.
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Jul 6, 2009
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                                                  You mention David Rohl's work in the thread below. It took two years but his special TV program 'Pharaohs & Kings' was re-released last September on DVD.
                                                  http://stretchproductions.com/RohlProducts.html
                                                  -Cami McCraw



                                                  --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Christian Bogh" <packedmaniac@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Dear, Mr. David Hall
                                                  >
                                                  > I believe you missed my original point, because you still opt for the
                                                  > "true/false" dichtomy. I didn't say that it was claimed that Genesis 1
                                                  > is said to be 100% false (or Genesis for that matter.. as that is how you
                                                  > begin your post). I said that most people, believers or non-believers, would
                                                  > argue today that Genesis 1 (a very typical example, less likely to cause
                                                  > discontention, that's why I picked it) is void of actual history. And that
                                                  > is not the same as saying it is 100% false. It could be it was not written
                                                  > with an actual historical perspective in mind. This is from principel, you
                                                  > understand? I'm arguing from principle. We could be talking about any text,
                                                  > non-biblical as well. Concerning minimalism.. I know of no minimalist, but I
                                                  > could be wrong, who would argue using these true/false values that you have
                                                  > set up. None: That is if there is no history to be found in the Biblical
                                                  > text, say Gen 11, then it gets labeled as false. That's how the accusations
                                                  > of "minimalism is antagonist to religion" that professor Noll commented on
                                                  > are produced. From this assumption that minimalists are saying the Bible is
                                                  > false. Only anti-minimalists are saying that minimalists are saying
                                                  > that part of (or the whole) Bible is false. But lets ask professor Lemche,
                                                  > Davies, Thompson or West...
                                                  >
                                                  > PS: sorry for the poor English, but no time to proofread it, I'm afraid..
                                                  >
                                                  > best wishes,
                                                  > Christian Bogh
                                                  > stud. teol
                                                  > Copenhagen, Uni. of
                                                  > 2008/12/3 David Hall <dqhall59@...>
                                                  >
                                                  > > "If say Genesis 1 is claimed to be void of actual history it doesn't
                                                  > > follow that its then 100% false. Why was it written? For what purpose then?
                                                  > > etc. instead of "when was it written", "who wrote it?" etc.. Those questions
                                                  > > I believe are what concern minimalists (among other things)."
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > If one takes the position that Genesis is false, could one yet take the
                                                  > > position that King Hezekiah lived? A brief biography of Hezekiah's works
                                                  > > was recorded in the Bible and the Assyrian archives found at Nineveh along
                                                  > > the Tigris River as excavated by Layard. The two accounts about Hezekiah
                                                  > > and the siege of Jerusalem by Sennacherib and a Hebrew writer were nearly
                                                  > > parallel. Since there was a large library of clay tablets from Nineveh, a
                                                  > > more extensive library extant than the Hebrew kings left as they wrote on
                                                  > > payprus or vellum that quickly decayed, some have trusted the Assyrians
                                                  > > were capable of simple administrative records to some degree of
                                                  > > accuracy. You might have two books of the Bible, one considered false, part
                                                  > > of another considered true.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Stating Genesis as false when compared to the geological and astrophysical
                                                  > > records does not mean it is true when compared to archaeological records
                                                  > > either. It was stated in the text that Abraham had met a commander of the
                                                  > > Abimelech from Gerar on the Philistines territory and concluded a treaty
                                                  > > with him in the Negev at Beersheba during the time of his residence in the
                                                  > > Land of the Philistines (Gen. 21). Some scholars counted generations and
                                                  > > used Biblical statements to trace the setting of the Abraham to about 1800
                                                  > > B.C. I did a counting of generations and statements about Exodus to place
                                                  > > the setting closer to 1900 B.C. The Philistines were not inhabiting Gaza or
                                                  > > Beersheba at that time. Why was Genesis written? That was a decision by the
                                                  > > author. Why were Aesop's fables written? One might find lessons to be
                                                  > > learned in books of fiction, but should not state the literary verse as
                                                  > > factual without evidence. Abraham may be treated as a type of character
                                                  > > whose parallel might be found in the society of ancient times. There is no
                                                  > > archaeological evidence to prove Abraham was ever born as a real person with
                                                  > > the geneology stated in Genesis ... people living to be hundreds of years of
                                                  > > age in the Genesis story ... nonsense. The oldest woman in the world lived
                                                  > > in Indiana and was 115 years old until she passed away in late November of
                                                  > > this year.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Many scientists have testified of a belief in a super intelligent
                                                  > > spiritual being. Thomas Edison. a genius inventor, was not religious but
                                                  > > thought there was a divine intelligence in the universe. People have come
                                                  > > up with a plethora of descriptions and works attributed to such a being, not
                                                  > > all of them are false.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > David Q. Hall
                                                  > > dqhall59@... <dqhall59%40yahoo.com>
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --- On Mon, 12/1/08, Christian Bogh <packedmaniac@...<packedmaniac%40gmail.com>>
                                                  > > wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > From: Christian Bogh <packedmaniac@... <packedmaniac%40gmail.com>>
                                                  > > Subject: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor comment
                                                  > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                  > > Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 6:00 PM
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > I suppose the extreme minimist position would claim the Bible is 100%
                                                  > > > false, and the extreme maximist would claim that it is 100% true, the
                                                  > > > inspired word of God.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I don't believe that's accurate at all. There is no such
                                                  > > differantiation
                                                  > > (true/false) . Either I have misunderstood the Copenhagen School and "its
                                                  > > project" or you have (hence the differantiation) . If say Genesis 1 is
                                                  > > claimed to be void of actual history it doesn't follow that its then 100%
                                                  > > false. Why was it written? For what purpose then? etc. instead of "when
                                                  > > was
                                                  > > it written", "who wrote it?" etc.. Those questions I believe are
                                                  > > what
                                                  > > concern minimalists (among other things).
                                                  > >
                                                  > > best regards,
                                                  > > Christian Bogh
                                                  > > stud. teol
                                                  > > Copenhagen, Uni. of
                                                  > >
                                                  > > 2008/12/1 David Hall <dqhall59@yahoo. com>
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Of Contradictions and Extremes:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > With the various destruction scenarios of the book of Joshua, including
                                                  > > > Arad ("the Great"?) that was not occupied between the EB and the
                                                  > > beginning
                                                  > > > of the Iron Age but was mentioned as a place Joshua had contact with;
                                                  > > there
                                                  > > > were complex models claiming to eliminate contradictions between the
                                                  > > > archaeological record and the account of Joshua. There have been many
                                                  > > > theories to try to prove Joshua. One theory was that there were two
                                                  > > Ai's
                                                  > > > and we do not know where the other one was (not Et Tell), or it might
                                                  > > have
                                                  > > > been Bethel and we do not know where Bethel was. There was also the
                                                  > > theory
                                                  > > > that Garstang and Kenyon did not know what they were doing. Sometimes
                                                  > > such
                                                  > > > objections were brought by people who could not instantly identify the
                                                  > > > differences between an EB saucer lamp and a LB saucer lamp, nor had ever
                                                  > > > seen a drawing of a Hyksos seal.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > If you read the works of David Rohl, fluent in the ancient
                                                  > > > Egyptian language and capable of page layout with photos and
                                                  > > > maps, eventually you might suspect the guy had trusted too much in the
                                                  > > text
                                                  > > > of the Biblical works if you do not recognize it immediately. At one
                                                  > > point
                                                  > > > he indicated that Joshua was Labayu of the Amarna tablets and that the
                                                  > > > existing published chronologies were wrong. He moved dates at will to try
                                                  > > > to fit his theories into his book. He was not able to eliminate the
                                                  > > > contradictions between the destruction of Hazor and the destruction of
                                                  > > > Jericho not to mention numerous other apparent contradictions.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Some of the theories of archaeologists in the 1960's cannot be easily
                                                  > > > negated. People have moved datelines to the left or right yet usually
                                                  > > > within a hundred years, although sometimes wanting to move them further
                                                  > > like
                                                  > > > 150 years. Some new pottery classifications were described such
                                                  > > > as Intermediate EB-MB based on a few unique finds.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > An archaeologist working on one site described a certain style of glass
                                                  > > > perfume bottle such as was left in tombs after the anointing of the dead
                                                  > > for
                                                  > > > burial as 150-300 A.D. at Pella whereas someone working in Jerusalem
                                                  > > > described the style of perfume bottle with the flared rim as first
                                                  > > century
                                                  > > > C.E. Neither one did fraud, yet there are limits to one's ability to
                                                  > > > discern based on one's experience.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > I suppose the extreme minimist position would claim the Bible is 100%
                                                  > > > false, and the extreme maximist would claim that it is 100% true, the
                                                  > > > inspired word of God. It was also writted in the Bible that God desired
                                                  > > > mercy and not sacrifice after the altars of Israel had been drenched with
                                                  > > > the blood of sacrifices for a long time. Did God change or was it the
                                                  > > > writters' words about God that differed?
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > To be able to recognize a contradiction is useful. To find the truth of
                                                  > > > the matter is wiser.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Sincerely:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > David Q. Hall
                                                  > > > dqhall59@yahoo. com <dqhall59%40yahoo. com>
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > --- On Sun, 11/30/08, Niels Peter Lemche <npl@... <npl%40teol.ku>.
                                                  > > dk<npl%40teol. ku.dk>>
                                                  > > > wrote:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > From: Niels Peter Lemche <npl@... <npl%40teol.ku>. dk <npl%40teol.
                                                  > > ku.dk>>
                                                  > > > Subject: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor comment
                                                  > > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com <ANE-2%40yahoogroup s.com>
                                                  > > > Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 1:08 PM
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Dear David,
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > You should not be afraid of the extremes. I follow old Hegel here, that
                                                  > > > thesis and antithesis produce a new synthesis, etc etc. So if we have
                                                  > > > something from both sides, the synthesis might be somewhere between.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > To stay on safe ground means to move little or nothing (had a discussion
                                                  > > > with Na'aman last Thuesday in Boston about this. We were absolutely in
                                                  > > > agreement).
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Niels Peter Lemche
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-- ---
                                                  > > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com [mailto:ANE- 2@yahoogroups. com] På vegne af
                                                  > > > David Hall
                                                  > > > Sendt: den 30 november 2008 15:41
                                                  > > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                                                  > > > Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor comment
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > I think it fair to avoid the extremes. Scientific criticism may bring
                                                  > > > healthy interpretation and the ability to divide fact from superstition.
                                                  > > > Extremely complex models designed to try to eliminate contridictions
                                                  > > found
                                                  > > > in religious texts sometimes ignored the possibility that there may have
                                                  > > > been an error in the text.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > David Q. Hall
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > --- On Sat, 11/29/08, Niels Peter Lemche <npl@... <npl%40teol.ku><npl%40teol.
                                                  > > ku>. dk>
                                                  > > > wrote:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > From: Niels Peter Lemche <npl@... <npl%40teol.ku> <npl%40teol. ku>.
                                                  > > dk>
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Subject: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor comment
                                                  > > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                                                  > > > Date: Saturday, November 29, 2008, 4:07 PM
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Dear K.L.,
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Thank you for the comment. Only saw it now. Back from Boston I had 300
                                                  > > > mails waiting. Mr. Pride's comment is of course extremely badly
                                                  > > informed,
                                                  > > > from a person who seems to appropriate what is religion from his own
                                                  > > > observation. A hardly a comment that should have passed here (maybe I
                                                  > > passed
                                                  > > > it? I was back on the 28th and there were several mails for ANE waiting
                                                  > > to
                                                  > > > moderate.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > After all, "minimalism" is an ethic term placed on the
                                                  > > minimalists by other
                                                  > > > people. It only says what somebody else thinks. It is no reflection of
                                                  > > what
                                                  > > > the group itself represents but typical of the discourse within certain
                                                  > > > circles of biblical scholarship.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > And now, I suppose we can get on to something more relevant than Mr.
                                                  > > > Pride's misrepresentations (misprisions) .
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Niels Peter Lemche
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-- ---
                                                  > > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com [mailto:ANE- 2@yahoogroups. com] På vegne af
                                                  > > K
                                                  > > > L Noll
                                                  > > > Sendt: den 29 november 2008 19:17
                                                  > > > Til: ANE-2
                                                  > > > Emne: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor comment
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > With the annual SBL meeting, as well as the marking of exams and term
                                                  > > > papers, I have only just today begun to read a backlog of listserv
                                                  > > digests.
                                                  > > > I came across this very bizarre little comment and cannot resist
                                                  > > responding
                                                  > > > to it...
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Dan Pride wrote, in part: "Minimalism has been rooted far more in
                                                  > > > antagonism to religion and its excesses than in the facts, which is why
                                                  > > it
                                                  > > > goes down so hard,... screaming and scratching at every turn."
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > My guess is that Dan Pride has never actually held a conversation with a
                                                  > > > so-called Minimalist. As I understand the term, it is a method of
                                                  > > research
                                                  > > > (defined quite succinctly by Axel Knauf back in the early 1990s, in an
                                                  > > essay
                                                  > > > on Solomon's Copper Mines). For me, the attractive aspect of
                                                  > > Minimalism as a
                                                  > > > research method is that it matches the method in which I was trained by a
                                                  > > > medievalist when I was an undergraduate history major. The polemics that
                                                  > > > emerged around the term Minimalism during the mid-1990s came as quite a
                                                  > > > shock to me and, so far as I can tell, derived almost entirely from a
                                                  > > > religiously motivated faction, so it seems bizarre to characterize the
                                                  > > > Minimalists as antagonistic to religion (as though "religion"
                                                  > > were one
                                                  > > > undifferentiated phenomenon).
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Now, the central point I want to make is this: As a professor of
                                                  > > Religious
                                                  > > > Studies, I have grown weary of people who obviously know (and care)
                                                  > > nothing
                                                  > > > for our academic discipline constantly describing us as "antagonistic
                                                  > > to
                                                  > > > religion" (as Dan Pride does in this snip). We are no more
                                                  > > antagonistic to
                                                  > > > religion than a biologist is antagonistic to a frog. But the biologist
                                                  > > kills
                                                  > > > more than a few frogs so that he/she can cut them open and see how they
                                                  > > > work. What appears to the religious participant as hostility is really
                                                  > > > nothing more than the routine (and rather messy) activities of dissection
                                                  > > > taking place in the lab. Sure it kills some of the magic of religious
                                                  > > > experience, but it enhances our understanding of why humans are
                                                  > > religious.
                                                  > > > It seems to me that our research offends only those who harbor
                                                  > > unrealistic
                                                  > > > notions about the potential for "truth" within their own
                                                  > > religious
                                                  > > > traditions. My experience is that the fuss over so-called Minimalism
                                                  > > never
                                                  > > > occurs when
                                                  > > > secular so-call!
                                                  > > > ed Maximalists interact with the equally secular so-called Minimalists.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Ok, back to marking term papers...
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Shalom,
                                                  > > > K. L. Noll
                                                  > > > Brandon University
                                                  > > > Brandon, Manitoba
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                  > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg com
                                                  > > > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.11/1820 - Release Date:
                                                  > > 2008-11-29
                                                  > > > 18:52
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >
                                                • David Hall
                                                  David Rohl published some content of interest to a few people, yet his claiming Joshua was Labayu of the Amarna letters was not widely accepted.  It is
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Jul 10, 2009
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                                                    David Rohl published some content of interest to a few people, yet his claiming Joshua was Labayu of the Amarna letters was not widely accepted.  It is easier to match Shishak with Shoshenq than Labayu with Yahshua (Joshua).  His attempts to shift chronologies to prove parts of the Bible were insufficient. 

                                                    At Jericho there were only two tombs from the LBAI period found.  Most of the tombs were from the MBII.  Both the Garstang and Kenyon expeditions excavated tombs in areas west of the town ruins.  The widest extent of the occupation of Jericho was during the MBII and its destruction was placed close to the end of the MBII.  During this phase there were numerous destructions in southern Israel sometimes associated with the the defeat of the Hyksos and resurgence of native Egyptian power.  There was evidence of slight occupation during the LBAI in Jericho that may have ended close to 1400-1375.  Kenyon noted that Jericho was not a walled city during the time of its last (LBA) occupation.  The existence of partial ruined walls did not constitute a walled city.  Rohl did not explain the situation at Gibeon either.  Gibeon could not have been a royal city as described as in the book of Joshua until the Iron Age when it was a royal
                                                    city of Israel.  There was no LBA occupation of the acropolis and no evidence of an LBA city on Gibeon hill.  An agricultural estate may have existed in the area during the LBA and remained hidden from surveyors.  The archaeological record contradicts the book of Joshua. 

                                                    There are yet groups who will put out anyone who does not confess "inerrancy of the scriptures."  As for Genesis; you might find some historical coincidence such as Hapiru people from Canaan were serving as slaves/low caste servants in Egypt making bricks for the upper classes during the times of Tuthmosis III or later.  One ought not put too much trust in the book of Genesis for the geological records can never confirm a flood to the top of Ararat in the past 10,000 years, nor will one find Exodus proven true, even if a few of the ancestors of Israel left Egypt for Canaan.  One might actually find oneself further from the truth by trusting Genesis and ignoring archaeological and scientific evidence. 

                                                    David Q. Hall

                                                        



                                                    ________________________________
                                                    From: Cami McCraw <cmccraw@...>
                                                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Sent: Monday, July 6, 2009 5:13:39 PM
                                                    Subject: Fw: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor comment





                                                    You mention David Rohl's work in the thread below. It took two years but his special TV program 'Pharaohs & Kings' was re-released last September on DVD.
                                                    http://stretchprodu ctions.com/ RohlProducts. html
                                                    -Cami McCraw

                                                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, "Christian Bogh" <packedmaniac@ ...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Dear, Mr. David Hall
                                                    >
                                                    > I believe you missed my original point, because you still opt for the
                                                    > "true/false" dichtomy. I didn't say that it was claimed that Genesis 1
                                                    > is said to be 100% false (or Genesis for that matter.. as that is how you
                                                    > begin your post). I said that most people, believers or non-believers, would
                                                    > argue today that Genesis 1 (a very typical example, less likely to cause
                                                    > discontention, that's why I picked it) is void of actual history. And that
                                                    > is not the same as saying it is 100% false. It could be it was not written
                                                    > with an actual historical perspective in mind. This is from principel, you
                                                    > understand? I'm arguing from principle. We could be talking about any text,
                                                    > non-biblical as well. Concerning minimalism.. I know of no minimalist, but I
                                                    > could be wrong, who would argue using these true/false values that you have
                                                    > set up. None: That is if there is no history to be found in the Biblical
                                                    > text, say Gen 11, then it gets labeled as false. That's how the accusations
                                                    > of "minimalism is antagonist to religion" that professor Noll commented on
                                                    > are produced. From this assumption that minimalists are saying the Bible is
                                                    > false. Only anti-minimalists are saying that minimalists are saying
                                                    > that part of (or the whole) Bible is false. But lets ask professor Lemche,
                                                    > Davies, Thompson or West...
                                                    >
                                                    > PS: sorry for the poor English, but no time to proofread it, I'm afraid..
                                                    >
                                                    > best wishes,
                                                    > Christian Bogh
                                                    > stud. teol
                                                    > Copenhagen, Uni. of
                                                    > 2008/12/3 David Hall <dqhall59@.. .>
                                                    >
                                                    > > "If say Genesis 1 is claimed to be void of actual history it doesn't
                                                    > > follow that its then 100% false. Why was it written? For what purpose then?
                                                    > > etc. instead of "when was it written", "who wrote it?" etc.. Those questions
                                                    > > I believe are what concern minimalists (among other things)."
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > If one takes the position that Genesis is false, could one yet take the
                                                    > > position that King Hezekiah lived? A brief biography of Hezekiah's works
                                                    > > was recorded in the Bible and the Assyrian archives found at Nineveh along
                                                    > > the Tigris River as excavated by Layard. The two accounts about Hezekiah
                                                    > > and the siege of Jerusalem by Sennacherib and a Hebrew writer were nearly
                                                    > > parallel. Since there was a large library of clay tablets from Nineveh, a
                                                    > > more extensive library extant than the Hebrew kings left as they wrote on
                                                    > > payprus or vellum that quickly decayed, some have trusted the Assyrians
                                                    > > were capable of simple administrative records to some degree of
                                                    > > accuracy. You might have two books of the Bible, one considered false, part
                                                    > > of another considered true.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Stating Genesis as false when compared to the geological and astrophysical
                                                    > > records does not mean it is true when compared to archaeological records
                                                    > > either. It was stated in the text that Abraham had met a commander of the
                                                    > > Abimelech from Gerar on the Philistines territory and concluded a treaty
                                                    > > with him in the Negev at Beersheba during the time of his residence in the
                                                    > > Land of the Philistines (Gen. 21). Some scholars counted generations and
                                                    > > used Biblical statements to trace the setting of the Abraham to about 1800
                                                    > > B.C. I did a counting of generations and statements about Exodus to place
                                                    > > the setting closer to 1900 B.C. The Philistines were not inhabiting Gaza or
                                                    > > Beersheba at that time. Why was Genesis written? That was a decision by the
                                                    > > author. Why were Aesop's fables written? One might find lessons to be
                                                    > > learned in books of fiction, but should not state the literary verse as
                                                    > > factual without evidence. Abraham may be treated as a type of character
                                                    > > whose parallel might be found in the society of ancient times. There is no
                                                    > > archaeological evidence to prove Abraham was ever born as a real person with
                                                    > > the geneology stated in Genesis ... people living to be hundreds of years of
                                                    > > age in the Genesis story ... nonsense. The oldest woman in the world lived
                                                    > > in Indiana and was 115 years old until she passed away in late November of
                                                    > > this year.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Many scientists have testified of a belief in a super intelligent
                                                    > > spiritual being. Thomas Edison. a genius inventor, was not religious but
                                                    > > thought there was a divine intelligence in the universe. People have come
                                                    > > up with a plethora of descriptions and works attributed to such a being, not
                                                    > > all of them are false.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > David Q. Hall
                                                    > > dqhall59@... <dqhall59%40yahoo. com>
                                                    > >
                                                    > > --- On Mon, 12/1/08, Christian Bogh <packedmaniac@ ...<packedmaniac %40gmail. com>>
                                                    > > wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > From: Christian Bogh <packedmaniac@ ... <packedmaniac% 40gmail.com> >
                                                    > > Subject: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor comment
                                                    > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com <ANE-2%40yahoogroup s.com>
                                                    > > Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 6:00 PM
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > I suppose the extreme minimist position would claim the Bible is 100%
                                                    > > > false, and the extreme maximist would claim that it is 100% true, the
                                                    > > > inspired word of God.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I don't believe that's accurate at all. There is no such
                                                    > > differantiation
                                                    > > (true/false) . Either I have misunderstood the Copenhagen School and "its
                                                    > > project" or you have (hence the differantiation) . If say Genesis 1 is
                                                    > > claimed to be void of actual history it doesn't follow that its then 100%
                                                    > > false. Why was it written? For what purpose then? etc. instead of "when
                                                    > > was
                                                    > > it written", "who wrote it?" etc.. Those questions I believe are
                                                    > > what
                                                    > > concern minimalists (among other things).
                                                    > >
                                                    > > best regards,
                                                    > > Christian Bogh
                                                    > > stud. teol
                                                    > > Copenhagen, Uni. of
                                                    > >
                                                    > > 2008/12/1 David Hall <dqhall59@yahoo. com>
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > Of Contradictions and Extremes:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > With the various destruction scenarios of the book of Joshua, including
                                                    > > > Arad ("the Great"?) that was not occupied between the EB and the
                                                    > > beginning
                                                    > > > of the Iron Age but was mentioned as a place Joshua had contact with;
                                                    > > there
                                                    > > > were complex models claiming to eliminate contradictions between the
                                                    > > > archaeological record and the account of Joshua. There have been many
                                                    > > > theories to try to prove Joshua. One theory was that there were two
                                                    > > Ai's
                                                    > > > and we do not know where the other one was (not Et Tell), or it might
                                                    > > have
                                                    > > > been Bethel and we do not know where Bethel was. There was also the
                                                    > > theory
                                                    > > > that Garstang and Kenyon did not know what they were doing. Sometimes
                                                    > > such
                                                    > > > objections were brought by people who could not instantly identify the
                                                    > > > differences between an EB saucer lamp and a LB saucer lamp, nor had ever
                                                    > > > seen a drawing of a Hyksos seal.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > If you read the works of David Rohl, fluent in the ancient
                                                    > > > Egyptian language and capable of page layout with photos and
                                                    > > > maps, eventually you might suspect the guy had trusted too much in the
                                                    > > text
                                                    > > > of the Biblical works if you do not recognize it immediately. At one
                                                    > > point
                                                    > > > he indicated that Joshua was Labayu of the Amarna tablets and that the
                                                    > > > existing published chronologies were wrong. He moved dates at will to try
                                                    > > > to fit his theories into his book. He was not able to eliminate the
                                                    > > > contradictions between the destruction of Hazor and the destruction of
                                                    > > > Jericho not to mention numerous other apparent contradictions.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Some of the theories of archaeologists in the 1960's cannot be easily
                                                    > > > negated. People have moved datelines to the left or right yet usually
                                                    > > > within a hundred years, although sometimes wanting to move them further
                                                    > > like
                                                    > > > 150 years. Some new pottery classifications were described such
                                                    > > > as Intermediate EB-MB based on a few unique finds.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > An archaeologist working on one site described a certain style of glass
                                                    > > > perfume bottle such as was left in tombs after the anointing of the dead
                                                    > > for
                                                    > > > burial as 150-300 A.D. at Pella whereas someone working in Jerusalem
                                                    > > > described the style of perfume bottle with the flared rim as first
                                                    > > century
                                                    > > > C.E. Neither one did fraud, yet there are limits to one's ability to
                                                    > > > discern based on one's experience.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > I suppose the extreme minimist position would claim the Bible is 100%
                                                    > > > false, and the extreme maximist would claim that it is 100% true, the
                                                    > > > inspired word of God. It was also writted in the Bible that God desired
                                                    > > > mercy and not sacrifice after the altars of Israel had been drenched with
                                                    > > > the blood of sacrifices for a long time. Did God change or was it the
                                                    > > > writters' words about God that differed?
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > To be able to recognize a contradiction is useful. To find the truth of
                                                    > > > the matter is wiser.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Sincerely:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > David Q. Hall
                                                    > > > dqhall59@yahoo. com <dqhall59%40yahoo. com>
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > --- On Sun, 11/30/08, Niels Peter Lemche <npl@... <npl%40teol. ku>.
                                                    > > dk<npl%40teol. ku.dk>>
                                                    > > > wrote:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > From: Niels Peter Lemche <npl@... <npl%40teol. ku>. dk <npl%40teol.
                                                    > > ku.dk>>
                                                    > > > Subject: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor comment
                                                    > > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com <ANE-2%40yahoogroup s.com>
                                                    > > > Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 1:08 PM
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Dear David,
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > You should not be afraid of the extremes. I follow old Hegel here, that
                                                    > > > thesis and antithesis produce a new synthesis, etc etc. So if we have
                                                    > > > something from both sides, the synthesis might be somewhere between.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > To stay on safe ground means to move little or nothing (had a discussion
                                                    > > > with Na'aman last Thuesday in Boston about this. We were absolutely in
                                                    > > > agreement).
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Niels Peter Lemche
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-- ---
                                                    > > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com [mailto:ANE- 2@yahoogroups. com] På vegne af
                                                    > > > David Hall
                                                    > > > Sendt: den 30 november 2008 15:41
                                                    > > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                                                    > > > Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor comment
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > I think it fair to avoid the extremes. Scientific criticism may bring
                                                    > > > healthy interpretation and the ability to divide fact from superstition.
                                                    > > > Extremely complex models designed to try to eliminate contridictions
                                                    > > found
                                                    > > > in religious texts sometimes ignored the possibility that there may have
                                                    > > > been an error in the text.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > David Q. Hall
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > --- On Sat, 11/29/08, Niels Peter Lemche <npl@... <npl%40teol. ku><npl%40teol.
                                                    > > ku>. dk>
                                                    > > > wrote:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > From: Niels Peter Lemche <npl@... <npl%40teol. ku> <npl%40teol. ku>.
                                                    > > dk>
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > Subject: SV: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor comment
                                                    > > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                                                    > > > Date: Saturday, November 29, 2008, 4:07 PM
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Dear K.L.,
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Thank you for the comment. Only saw it now. Back from Boston I had 300
                                                    > > > mails waiting. Mr. Pride's comment is of course extremely badly
                                                    > > informed,
                                                    > > > from a person who seems to appropriate what is religion from his own
                                                    > > > observation. A hardly a comment that should have passed here (maybe I
                                                    > > passed
                                                    > > > it? I was back on the 28th and there were several mails for ANE waiting
                                                    > > to
                                                    > > > moderate.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > After all, "minimalism" is an ethic term placed on the
                                                    > > minimalists by other
                                                    > > > people. It only says what somebody else thinks. It is no reflection of
                                                    > > what
                                                    > > > the group itself represents but typical of the discourse within certain
                                                    > > > circles of biblical scholarship.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > And now, I suppose we can get on to something more relevant than Mr.
                                                    > > > Pride's misrepresentations (misprisions) .
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Niels Peter Lemche
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-- ---
                                                    > > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com [mailto:ANE- 2@yahoogroups. com] På vegne af
                                                    > > K
                                                    > > > L Noll
                                                    > > > Sendt: den 29 november 2008 19:17
                                                    > > > Til: ANE-2
                                                    > > > Emne: [ANE-2] Tardy response to a minor comment
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > With the annual SBL meeting, as well as the marking of exams and term
                                                    > > > papers, I have only just today begun to read a backlog of listserv
                                                    > > digests.
                                                    > > > I came across this very bizarre little comment and cannot resist
                                                    > > responding
                                                    > > > to it...
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Dan Pride wrote, in part: "Minimalism has been rooted far more in
                                                    > > > antagonism to religion and its excesses than in the facts, which is why
                                                    > > it
                                                    > > > goes down so hard,... screaming and scratching at every turn."
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > My guess is that Dan Pride has never actually held a conversation with a
                                                    > > > so-called Minimalist. As I understand the term, it is a method of
                                                    > > research
                                                    > > > (defined quite succinctly by Axel Knauf back in the early 1990s, in an
                                                    > > essay
                                                    > > > on Solomon's Copper Mines). For me, the attractive aspect of
                                                    > > Minimalism as a
                                                    > > > research method is that it matches the method in which I was trained by a
                                                    > > > medievalist when I was an undergraduate history major. The polemics that
                                                    > > > emerged around the term Minimalism during the mid-1990s came as quite a
                                                    > > > shock to me and, so far as I can tell, derived almost entirely from a
                                                    > > > religiously motivated faction, so it seems bizarre to characterize the
                                                    > > > Minimalists as antagonistic to religion (as though "religion"
                                                    > > were one
                                                    > > > undifferentiated phenomenon).
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Now, the central point I want to make is this: As a professor of
                                                    > > Religious
                                                    > > > Studies, I have grown weary of people who obviously know (and care)
                                                    > > nothing
                                                    > > > for our academic discipline constantly describing us as "antagonistic
                                                    > > to
                                                    > > > religion" (as Dan Pride does in this snip). We are no more
                                                    > > antagonistic to
                                                    > > > religion than a biologist is antagonistic to a frog. But the biologist
                                                    > > kills
                                                    > > > more than a few frogs so that he/she can cut them open and see how they
                                                    > > > work. What appears to the religious participant as hostility is really
                                                    > > > nothing more than the routine (and rather messy) activities of dissection
                                                    > > > taking place in the lab. Sure it kills some of the magic of religious
                                                    > > > experience, but it enhances our understanding of why humans are
                                                    > > religious.
                                                    > > > It seems to me that our research offends only those who harbor
                                                    > > unrealistic
                                                    > > > notions about the potential for "truth" within their own
                                                    > > religious
                                                    > > > traditions. My experience is that the fuss over so-called Minimalism
                                                    > > never
                                                    > > > occurs when
                                                    > > > secular so-call!
                                                    > > > ed Maximalists interact with the equally secular so-called Minimalists.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Ok, back to marking term papers...
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Shalom,
                                                    > > > K. L. Noll
                                                    > > > Brandon University
                                                    > > > Brandon, Manitoba
                                                    > > >
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                                                    > > >
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                                                    > > >
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