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Qeiyafa inscription 'ALT`S and ShPT.

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  • Brian Colless
    Victor That is exactly why I was careful to say a new version And now the discussion has started raging over lo (thou shalt not) and al (which I had
    Message 1 of 21 , Nov 2, 2008
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      Victor
      That is exactly why I was careful to say "a new version"

      And now the discussion has started raging over lo' (thou shalt not)
      and 'al (which I had thought implied Please do not or Kindly refrain
      from in classical usage).

      I will respond to Yitzhak Sapir tomorrow.

      Brian
      1.33 am on Monday 3rd of Novemeber, I think; my luakh says 5 Kheshvan
      5769

      On 2/11/2008, at 7:09 PM, victor avigdor hurowitz wrote:

      > Yitzhaq,
      > In the versions of the Ten Commandments I know, the negative is Lo
      > and not
      > Al.
      > Victor Hurowitz
      > BGU
      >
      >
      >
      > On Sun, 2 Nov 2008, Yitzhak Sapir wrote:
      >
      >> On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 5:49 AM, Brian Colless wrote:
      >> Yitzhak Sapir said:
      >>> What you read as a B, Haggai Misgav reads a Lamed whose top has
      >> been cut off. This makes for the aleph-lamed, taw-ayin of אל תעש
      >> ("Don't
      >> do.") <
      >>
      >> On 'A L T ` ´S as "Do not do"
      >> What have we here? A copy of the Ten Commandments? Or a new version?
      >> "Do not make [a pesel]"
      >
      > Dear Brian,
      >
      > I did not mean to second guess Haggai Misgav. He is the one who has
      > the
      > qualifications to read this inscription as well as the necessary
      > photographs,
      > and at this point, apparently, this is not even sufficient for trying
      > to read more
      > than a handful of words. Those letters there on the second line may
      > be the
      > ones Haggai Misgav reads as "judge" -- I don't know where the word
      > "judge"
      > appears. I feel that the Sin on the first line has only two <
      > marks, whereas
      > the ones I identified as Mem on the second line have three or four
      > (and the
      > second has them going >). I did this because I realized that the
      > words
      > "Don't do" are legible on the photo, and also because someone asked
      > how
      > the Proto-Canaanite forms are substantiated in the photo. Again, I
      > did not
      > mean to second-guess Haggai Misgav in his reading and if he, with
      > all the
      > information he has available is not willing to go much further, we
      > shouldn't
      > either.
      >
      > Yitzhak Sapir
      >
      >
    • Niels Peter Lemche
      I am quite sure that the Germans were able to get around both cases. The first might be secondary in comparison to the one opening the sentence, the second
      Message 2 of 21 , Nov 2, 2008
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        I am quite sure that the Germans were able to get around both cases. The first might be secondary in comparison to the one opening the sentence, the second might not necessarily be understood as categorical.

        I checked a modern translation:

        Revised English Bible: You must not spread a baseless rumour, nor make common cause with a wicked man ... 7: Avoid all lies, and do not cause the death of ...

        V. 8 opens with perhaps a better example.

        Would have nothing against a modern study of negations. In my time, if we failed to make the distinction between 'al and lo' at the examination, we were dead meat!

        Niels Peter Lemche


        -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
        Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af victor
        Sendt: den 2 november 2008 13:27
        Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Emne: RE: SV: [ANE-2] Qeiyafa inscription 'ALT`S

        Nothing wrong with reverting back to old Alt if he has something new to say,
        or even old that's right.

        I wouldn't venture an opinion on what he says in this particular case
        because I don't have his article in front of me, but is it is as you state
        it, it requires a small bit of modification. Look at Exodus 23:1 and 7 where
        al is used in negative commands which are certainly categorical. But in
        these cases the al is a secondary prohibition subsumed under a primary
        prohibition mentioned right before them which uses lo.

        Victor

        BGU



        _____
      • Andrés Piquer Otero
        Personally I would reconsider the traditional clause-level theories from a discourse analysis perspective: the two instances of the Decalogues could be
        Message 3 of 21 , Nov 2, 2008
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          Personally I would reconsider the traditional clause-level theories from
          a discourse analysis perspective: the two instances of the Decalogues
          could be analyzed not as Hortative Discourse (command-driven) but as
          Predictive Discourse (rendering of prospective-future events). That
          would fit with a 2-mode division (indicative vs. injunctive) akin to
          proposals applied to the PC in Ugaritic. The Decalogues are not a piece
          of "injunctive" discourse, but a text in the "indicative mode". Thus,
          interpretation of lo' + "imperfect" as a categorical demand vs. the
          default negative command with 'al + jussive is to be contextualized in
          the form and function of the whole text. These two particular instances
          of juridical-function discourse use indicative (predictive discourse),
          as opposed to injunctive. Perhaps that's indeed connected to the
          "categorical" force of legal language (as attested in the tense use in
          multiple languages, old and modern), but it is created by the context
          usage in a text-type, not by the existence of yet another category of
          single-sentence construction (we already see enough of those in
          classical Hebrew grammars). In the Decalogues, it is remarkable that the
          few positive commands are problematic: kabbed supports an infinitive
          reading besides the imp. one and zakor is vocalized as infinitive, so
          also in the positive commands the imperative form (injunctive mode)
          could be missing. Further research could focus on this context-based
          line in other instances of legal texts presented from injuctive vs.
          indicative modes.

          Andrés Piquer Otero



          Niels Peter Lemche wrote:
          >
          > Hm, are we not back to the old division in biblical Hebrew between lo'
          > & imperfect and 'al & jussiv? More to it than that? Modern Hebrew
          > usage is probably of no consequence here.
          >
          > Back to old Alt (need a smiley here): lo' & imperfect a categorical
          > demand, "thou shall not etc", 'al & jussiv less categorical: "Please,
          > do not ..." I know that I am back in the Jurasic Park of biblical
          > scholarship.
          >
          > Niels Peter Lemche
          >
          > -----
          >
        • Ariel L. Szczupak
          ... I was referring to the (tiny) knowledge of the Bible and of Biblical Hebrew. But the decalogue is a memorable piece of literature, partly because of its
          Message 4 of 21 , Nov 2, 2008
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            At 02:10 PM 11/2/2008, victor wrote:

            >I must take issue with Ariel’s comment here about the Israeli
            >school system and the average Israeli’s knowledge of Hebrew.

            I was referring to the (tiny) knowledge of the Bible and of Biblical
            Hebrew. But the decalogue is a memorable piece of literature, partly
            because of its phrasing. Most Israelis would know, remember, that the
            bible says "lo tirtsah" (and not "al tirtsah") - that's my impression
            and personal experience. Maybe I'm wrong and they wouldn't know even that :(



            Ariel.

            [100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto ergo sum!]

            ---
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            POB 4707, Jerusalem, Israel 91406
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