Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: High Priest sarcophagus

Expand Messages
  • Christopher Conlan
    I am fairly certain that Jack Kilmon raised this possibility earlier today, and noted that there are no known High Priests whose name ends bn - that would
    Message 1 of 22 , Oct 7, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      I am fairly certain that Jack Kilmon raised this possibility earlier
      today, and noted that there are no known High Priests whose name ends
      <...>bn - that would seem like a real problem with this theory.

      I guess that the value of the piece would be significantly higher if
      it is the sarcophagus of a "known" High Priest, than if it is the
      sarcophagus of the son of an unknown High Priest...

      Christopher Conlan
      Washington, DC

      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Deutsch" <mail@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear list members,
      >
      > The interpretation of the inscription make no sense !
      > Can a certain person be the son of an anonymous High Priest ?
      >
      > As the right side of the fragment is damaged and the surface
      > before the first visible letter is missing, I will suggest a
      > different reading:
      >
      > [....]bn the High Priest
      > Where the "...bn" is the suffix of a personal name.
      >
      > This means that the sarcophagus belongs to a named High Priest
      > and not to a son of an anonymous High Priest.
      >
      > Robert Deutsch
      >
    • Jack Kilmon
      No, I noted that an excellent epigrapher suggested it...I was refering to Robert, of course since he is one of the best. His books have sure taught me a lot.
      Message 2 of 22 , Oct 7, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        No, I noted that an excellent epigrapher suggested it...I was refering to
        Robert, of course since he is one of the best. His books have sure taught
        me a lot. Since the text is in Hebrew I suspect that if the -BN is the
        suffix of a name, as Robert suggests, it may be the Semitic version of one
        of the many Greek names used.

        Regards,

        Jack Kilmon


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Christopher Conlan" <chris_conlan@...>
        To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 2:57 PM
        Subject: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus


        >I am fairly certain that Jack Kilmon raised this possibility earlier
        > today, and noted that there are no known High Priests whose name ends
        > <...>bn - that would seem like a real problem with this theory.
        >
        > I guess that the value of the piece would be significantly higher if
        > it is the sarcophagus of a "known" High Priest, than if it is the
        > sarcophagus of the son of an unknown High Priest...
        >
        > Christopher Conlan
        > Washington, DC
        >
        > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Deutsch" <mail@...> wrote:
        >>
        >> Dear list members,
        >>
        >> The interpretation of the inscription make no sense !
        >> Can a certain person be the son of an anonymous High Priest ?
        >>
        >> As the right side of the fragment is damaged and the surface
        >> before the first visible letter is missing, I will suggest a
        >> different reading:
        >>
        >> [....]bn the High Priest
        >> Where the "...bn" is the suffix of a personal name.
        >>
        >> This means that the sarcophagus belongs to a named High Priest
        >> and not to a son of an anonymous High Priest.
        >>
        >> Robert Deutsch
      • George F Somsel
        If you are suggesting xxBN HKHN HGDL then none of the names suggested in the article as being high priests of this period would end with BN.  It would then
        Message 3 of 22 , Oct 8, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          If you are suggesting xxBN HKHN HGDL then none of the names�suggested in the article as being high priests�of this period would end with BN.� It would then likely require a different time frame (which may not be a problem since I am not aware of how well-established this time frame might be).�� I note that Caiphas is included.� Do we not already have an ossuary attributed to him?

          �george
          gfsomsel


          � search for truth, hear truth,
          learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
          defend the truth till death.


          - Jan Hus
          _________



          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 4:14:39 PM
          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus


          No, I noted that an excellent epigrapher suggested it...I was refering to
          Robert, of course since he is one of the best. His books have sure taught
          me a lot. Since the text is in Hebrew I suspect that if the -BN is the
          suffix of a name, as Robert suggests, it may be the Semitic version of one
          of the many Greek names used.

          Regards,

          Jack Kilmon

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Christopher Conlan" <chris_conlan@ yahoo.co. uk>
          To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups. com>
          Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 2:57 PM
          Subject: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus

          >I am fairly certain that Jack Kilmon raised this possibility earlier
          > today, and noted that there are no known High Priests whose name ends
          > <...>bn - that would seem like a real problem with this theory.
          >
          > I guess that the value of the piece would be significantly higher if
          > it is the sarcophagus of a "known" High Priest, than if it is the
          > sarcophagus of the son of an unknown High Priest...
          >
          > Christopher Conlan
          > Washington, DC
          >
          > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, "Robert Deutsch" <mail@...> wrote:
          >>
          >> Dear list members,
          >>
          >> The interpretation of the inscription make no sense !
          >> Can a certain person be the son of an anonymous High Priest ?
          >>
          >> As the right side of the fragment is damaged and the surface
          >> before the first visible letter is missing, I will suggest a
          >> different reading:
          >>
          >> [....]bn the High Priest
          >> Where the "...bn" is the suffix of a personal name.
          >>
          >> This means that the sarcophagus belongs to a named High Priest
          >> and not to a son of an anonymous High Priest.
          >>
          >> Robert Deutsch
          .





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jack Kilmon
          Hi George: Yes, we do have Caiphas ossuary and the inscription on it is YHWSF BR QYF) and not the Greek form of his name (I think Joe Zias examined the
          Message 4 of 22 , Oct 9, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi George:

            Yes, we do have Caiphas' ossuary and the inscription on it is YHWSF BR QYF)
            and not the Greek form of his name (I think Joe Zias examined the skeletal
            remains). That is why I was wondering if xxbn may be part of the semitized
            name of one of the many Greek names used for the HPs. I can't speak for
            Robert and I believe he is a member here, but I am sure he meant that the BN
            as a suffix could be a possibility that requires closer examination of the
            damaged margin between the broken edge of the sarc lid and the BN that
            appears to show up on the photos. I see what looks like an incised mark
            over and slightly to the right of the Beyt.

            I am sure that HPs like Theophilos, i.e., had Hebrew/Aramaic names in
            addition to their Greek names (even though this HPs name on his
            grandaughter's ossuary is transliterated Greek to Hebrew). Hopefully in
            this ongoing excavation they will find other shards of this sarcophagus.

            The more I study the inscription from a paleographic standpoint, the more I
            think it is late Hasmonean....but this is part of an amateur's fun with new
            epigraphic discoveries.

            Jack


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel@...>
            To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 5:13 PM
            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus


            > If you are suggesting xxBN HKHN HGDL then none of the names suggested in
            > the article as being high priests of this period would end with BN. It
            > would then likely require a different time frame (which may not be a
            > problem since I am not aware of how well-established this time frame might
            > be). I note that Caiphas is included. Do we not already have an ossuary
            > attributed to him?
            >
            > george
            > gfsomsel
            >
            >
            > . search for truth, hear truth,
            > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
            > defend the truth till death.
            >
            >
            > - Jan Hus
            > _________
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message ----
            > From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
            > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 4:14:39 PM
            > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus
            >
            >
            > No, I noted that an excellent epigrapher suggested it...I was refering to
            > Robert, of course since he is one of the best. His books have sure taught
            > me a lot. Since the text is in Hebrew I suspect that if the -BN is the
            > suffix of a name, as Robert suggests, it may be the Semitic version of one
            > of the many Greek names used.
            >
            > Regards,
            >
            > Jack Kilmon
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Christopher Conlan" <chris_conlan@ yahoo.co. uk>
            > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups. com>
            > Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 2:57 PM
            > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus
            >
            >>I am fairly certain that Jack Kilmon raised this possibility earlier
            >> today, and noted that there are no known High Priests whose name ends
            >> <...>bn - that would seem like a real problem with this theory.
            >>
            >> I guess that the value of the piece would be significantly higher if
            >> it is the sarcophagus of a "known" High Priest, than if it is the
            >> sarcophagus of the son of an unknown High Priest...
            >>
            >> Christopher Conlan
            >> Washington, DC
            >>
            >> --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, "Robert Deutsch" <mail@...> wrote:
            >>>
            >>> Dear list members,
            >>>
            >>> The interpretation of the inscription make no sense !
            >>> Can a certain person be the son of an anonymous High Priest ?
            >>>
            >>> As the right side of the fragment is damaged and the surface
            >>> before the first visible letter is missing, I will suggest a
            >>> different reading:
            >>>
            >>> [....]bn the High Priest
            >>> Where the "...bn" is the suffix of a personal name.
            >>>
            >>> This means that the sarcophagus belongs to a named High Priest
            >>> and not to a son of an anonymous High Priest.
            >>>
            >>> Robert Deutsch
            > .
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Joe Zias
            There were two ossuaries with the family name Caiphas, one Joseph son of ....and the second bearing only the family name Caiphas Unfortunately, religious
            Message 5 of 22 , Oct 9, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              There were two ossuaries with the family name Caiphas, one Joseph son of ....and the second bearing only the family name Caiphas Unfortunately, religious fanatics were stoning us during the excavation and we were eventually forced to abandon the excavation, though we were fortunate to take the ossuaries to the museum for examination. One interesting fact though glossed over by many is  that I, working alongside  Ronnie Reich the excavator,  found a coin in situ in the palate of one of the woman in an ossuary. Seems she was 'covering all her bets' with this Pagan custom and in retrospect this seems to have been for me personally, one of the more hypocritical customs observed due to the fact that this was the family of the High Priest. Little bit of back sliding it seems. Later I spoke to David Flusser about this and he asked if it was male of female, when I told him it was an adult female, he simply shrugged as if to say, I'm not all that surprised.

              Joe

              Joe Zias www.joezias.com
              Anthropology/Paleopathology

              Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
              Jerusalem, Israel

              --- On Thu, 10/9/08, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:
              From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 9:38 AM











              Hi George:



              Yes, we do have Caiphas' ossuary and the inscription on it is YHWSF BR QYF)

              and not the Greek form of his name (I think Joe Zias examined the skeletal

              remains). That is why I was wondering if xxbn may be part of the semitized

              name of one of the many Greek names used for the HPs. I can't speak for

              Robert and I believe he is a member here, but I am sure he meant that the BN

              as a suffix could be a possibility that requires closer examination of the

              damaged margin between the broken edge of the sarc lid and the BN that

              appears to show up on the photos. I see what looks like an incised mark

              over and slightly to the right of the Beyt.



              I am sure that HPs like Theophilos, i.e., had Hebrew/Aramaic names in

              addition to their Greek names (even though this HPs name on his

              grandaughter' s ossuary is transliterated Greek to Hebrew). Hopefully in

              this ongoing excavation they will find other shards of this sarcophagus.



              The more I study the inscription from a paleographic standpoint, the more I

              think it is late Hasmonean... .but this is part of an amateur's fun with new

              epigraphic discoveries.



              Jack



              ----- Original Message -----

              From: "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel@yahoo. com>

              To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups. com>

              Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 5:13 PM

              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus



              > If you are suggesting xxBN HKHN HGDL then none of the names suggested in

              > the article as being high priests of this period would end with BN. It

              > would then likely require a different time frame (which may not be a

              > problem since I am not aware of how well-established this time frame might

              > be). I note that Caiphas is included. Do we not already have an ossuary

              > attributed to him?

              >

              > george

              > gfsomsel

              >

              >

              > . search for truth, hear truth,

              > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,

              > defend the truth till death.

              >

              >

              > - Jan Hus

              > _________

              >

              >

              >

              > ----- Original Message ----

              > From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@historian. net>

              > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com

              > Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 4:14:39 PM

              > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus

              >

              >

              > No, I noted that an excellent epigrapher suggested it...I was refering to

              > Robert, of course since he is one of the best. His books have sure taught

              > me a lot. Since the text is in Hebrew I suspect that if the -BN is the

              > suffix of a name, as Robert suggests, it may be the Semitic version of one

              > of the many Greek names used.

              >

              > Regards,

              >

              > Jack Kilmon

              >

              > ----- Original Message -----

              > From: "Christopher Conlan" <chris_conlan@ yahoo.co. uk>

              > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups. com>

              > Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 2:57 PM

              > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus

              >

              >>I am fairly certain that Jack Kilmon raised this possibility earlier

              >> today, and noted that there are no known High Priests whose name ends

              >> <...>bn - that would seem like a real problem with this theory.

              >>

              >> I guess that the value of the piece would be significantly higher if

              >> it is the sarcophagus of a "known" High Priest, than if it is the

              >> sarcophagus of the son of an unknown High Priest...

              >>

              >> Christopher Conlan

              >> Washington, DC

              >>

              >> --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, "Robert Deutsch" <mail@...> wrote:

              >>>

              >>> Dear list members,

              >>>

              >>> The interpretation of the inscription make no sense !

              >>> Can a certain person be the son of an anonymous High Priest ?

              >>>

              >>> As the right side of the fragment is damaged and the surface

              >>> before the first visible letter is missing, I will suggest a

              >>> different reading:

              >>>

              >>> [....]bn the High Priest

              >>> Where the "...bn" is the suffix of a personal name.

              >>>

              >>> This means that the sarcophagus belongs to a named High Priest

              >>> and not to a son of an anonymous High Priest.

              >>>

              >>> Robert Deutsch

              > .

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              >

              >

              > ------------ --------- --------- ------

              >

              > Yahoo! Groups Links

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >


























              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jim West
              I d like to hear more about this pagan custom and its place in Jewish practice. ... ++++++ Jim West, ThD http://jwest.wordpress.com - Blog
              Message 6 of 22 , Oct 9, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                I'd like to hear more about this pagan custom and its place in Jewish
                practice.

                Joe Zias wrote:
                >
                > There were two ossuaries with the family name Caiphas, one Joseph son
                > of ....and the second bearing only the family name Caiphas
                > Unfortunately, religious fanatics were stoning us during the
                > excavation and we were eventually forced to abandon the excavation,
                > though we were fortunate to take the ossuaries to the museum for
                > examination. One interesting fact though glossed over by many is that
                > I, working alongside Ronnie Reich the excavator, found a coin in
                > situ in the palate of one of the woman in an ossuary. Seems she was
                > 'covering all her bets' with this Pagan custom and in retrospect this
                > seems to have been for me personally, one of the more hypocritical
                > customs observed due to the fact that this was the family of the High
                > Priest. Little bit of back sliding it seems. Later I spoke to David
                > Flusser about this and he asked if it was male of female, when I told
                > him it was an adult female, he simply shrugged as if to say, I'm not
                > all that surprised.
                >
                > Joe
                >



















                ++++++

                Jim West, ThD

                http://jwest.wordpress.com - Blog
                http://sites.google.com/site/biblicalstudiesresources/ - Biblical Studies Resources
              • Jack Kilmon
                There seems to be an assumption, not in evidence, that ossilegium had something to do with resurrection expectation. I don t think so myself, otherwise the
                Message 7 of 22 , Oct 9, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  There seems to be an assumption, not in evidence, that ossilegium had
                  something to do with resurrection expectation. I don't think so myself,
                  otherwise the HP, the chief, top dog, honcho Sadducee, would not have been
                  bone-boxed. The grandaughter of the High Priest Theophilos was buried in
                  Rahmani 871 which suggests to me that Theophilos was also bone-boxed in
                  whatever tomb 871 originated. Interesting about the woman. There is
                  evidence that some women in late second temple times still maintained
                  Asherah statuettes...maybe for fertility. Joe, do you think that women,
                  generally "outsiders" at the Beyt Yahweh, had a tendency to do their "own
                  thing?" Of course, since the deceased could not have placed the coin in her
                  own mouth, I wonder if it was one of the "bone-gatherers."

                  The sloppiness and quasi-literate scribbles often found on ossuaries,
                  including the wealthy Caiaphas, lead me to believe that neither family
                  members or othe Jews actually gathered the bones themselves...purity
                  issues...and there may have been a class of non-Jews who performed this
                  service, for a fee.

                  There's a great story for a novel. A Greek bone-gatherer falls in love with
                  the daughter of the High Priest and secretly places her ferry fare across
                  the styx in her mouth.

                  Jack


                  Jack Kilmon
                  San Antonio, TX


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Joe Zias" <joezias@...>
                  To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 11:28 AM
                  Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus/Caiphas


                  > There were two ossuaries with the family name Caiphas, one Joseph son of
                  > ....and the second bearing only the family name Caiphas Unfortunately,
                  > religious fanatics were stoning us during the excavation and we were
                  > eventually forced to abandon the excavation, though we were fortunate to
                  > take the ossuaries to the museum for examination. One interesting fact
                  > though glossed over by many is that I, working alongside Ronnie Reich the
                  > excavator, found a coin in situ in the palate of one of the woman in an
                  > ossuary. Seems she was 'covering all her bets' with this Pagan custom and
                  > in retrospect this seems to have been for me personally, one of the more
                  > hypocritical customs observed due to the fact that this was the family of
                  > the High Priest. Little bit of back sliding it seems. Later I spoke to
                  > David Flusser about this and he asked if it was male of female, when I
                  > told him it was an adult female, he simply shrugged as if to say, I'm not
                  > all that surprised.
                  >
                  > Joe
                  >
                  > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                  > Anthropology/Paleopathology
                  >
                  > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                  > Jerusalem, Israel
                  >
                  > --- On Thu, 10/9/08, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:
                  > From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
                  > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus
                  > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 9:38 AM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi George:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yes, we do have Caiphas' ossuary and the inscription on it is YHWSF BR
                  > QYF)
                  >
                  > and not the Greek form of his name (I think Joe Zias examined the skeletal
                  >
                  > remains). That is why I was wondering if xxbn may be part of the
                  > semitized
                  >
                  > name of one of the many Greek names used for the HPs. I can't speak for
                  >
                  > Robert and I believe he is a member here, but I am sure he meant that the
                  > BN
                  >
                  > as a suffix could be a possibility that requires closer examination of the
                  >
                  > damaged margin between the broken edge of the sarc lid and the BN that
                  >
                  > appears to show up on the photos. I see what looks like an incised mark
                  >
                  > over and slightly to the right of the Beyt.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I am sure that HPs like Theophilos, i.e., had Hebrew/Aramaic names in
                  >
                  > addition to their Greek names (even though this HPs name on his
                  >
                  > grandaughter' s ossuary is transliterated Greek to Hebrew). Hopefully in
                  >
                  > this ongoing excavation they will find other shards of this sarcophagus.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The more I study the inscription from a paleographic standpoint, the more
                  > I
                  >
                  > think it is late Hasmonean... .but this is part of an amateur's fun with
                  > new
                  >
                  > epigraphic discoveries.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Jack
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  >
                  > From: "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel@yahoo. com>
                  >
                  > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups. com>
                  >
                  > Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 5:13 PM
                  >
                  > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >> If you are suggesting xxBN HKHN HGDL then none of the names suggested in
                  >
                  >> the article as being high priests of this period would end with BN. It
                  >
                  >> would then likely require a different time frame (which may not be a
                  >
                  >> problem since I am not aware of how well-established this time frame
                  >> might
                  >
                  >> be). I note that Caiphas is included. Do we not already have an ossuary
                  >
                  >> attributed to him?
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >> george
                  >
                  >> gfsomsel
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >> . search for truth, hear truth,
                  >
                  >> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                  >
                  >> defend the truth till death.
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >> - Jan Hus
                  >
                  >> _________
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >> ----- Original Message ----
                  >
                  >> From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@historian. net>
                  >
                  >> To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                  >
                  >> Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 4:14:39 PM
                  >
                  >> Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >> No, I noted that an excellent epigrapher suggested it...I was refering to
                  >
                  >> Robert, of course since he is one of the best. His books have sure taught
                  >
                  >> me a lot. Since the text is in Hebrew I suspect that if the -BN is the
                  >
                  >> suffix of a name, as Robert suggests, it may be the Semitic version of
                  >> one
                  >
                  >> of the many Greek names used.
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >> Regards,
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >> Jack Kilmon
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >> ----- Original Message -----
                  >
                  >> From: "Christopher Conlan" <chris_conlan@ yahoo.co. uk>
                  >
                  >> To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups. com>
                  >
                  >> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 2:57 PM
                  >
                  >> Subject: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >>>I am fairly certain that Jack Kilmon raised this possibility earlier
                  >
                  >>> today, and noted that there are no known High Priests whose name ends
                  >
                  >>> <...>bn - that would seem like a real problem with this theory.
                  >
                  >>>
                  >
                  >>> I guess that the value of the piece would be significantly higher if
                  >
                  >>> it is the sarcophagus of a "known" High Priest, than if it is the
                  >
                  >>> sarcophagus of the son of an unknown High Priest...
                  >
                  >>>
                  >
                  >>> Christopher Conlan
                  >
                  >>> Washington, DC
                  >
                  >>>
                  >
                  >>> --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, "Robert Deutsch" <mail@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >>>>
                  >
                  >>>> Dear list members,
                  >
                  >>>>
                  >
                  >>>> The interpretation of the inscription make no sense !
                  >
                  >>>> Can a certain person be the son of an anonymous High Priest ?
                  >
                  >>>>
                  >
                  >>>> As the right side of the fragment is damaged and the surface
                  >
                  >>>> before the first visible letter is missing, I will suggest a
                  >
                  >>>> different reading:
                  >
                  >>>>
                  >
                  >>>> [....]bn the High Priest
                  >
                  >>>> Where the "...bn" is the suffix of a personal name.
                  >
                  >>>>
                  >
                  >>>> This means that the sarcophagus belongs to a named High Priest
                  >
                  >>>> and not to a son of an anonymous High Priest.
                  >
                  >>>>
                  >
                  >>>> Robert Deutsch
                  >
                  >> .
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >> ------------ --------- --------- ------
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Joe Zias
                  Jim West wrote I d like to hear more about this pagan custom (coins in the mouth after death)  and its place in Jewish practice. I ve never seen any research
                  Message 8 of 22 , Oct 9, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Jim West wrote

                    I'd like to hear more about this pagan custom (coins in the mouth after death)  and its place in Jewish practice.
                    I've never seen any research on this topic however from time to time we would find small coins in Jewish tombs and in one occasion (Jericho/ Smith-Hachlili) inside the cranium. The latter case received quite a bit of unwarranted attention by the pro-Turin Shroud folks as they claimed that they could see coins  from none other than Pontius Pilatus  on the shroud and 'as by custom they were placed on the eyes of the decease prior to burial.' This was never a Jewish custom in antiquity and placing the coins of the person responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus sounds more like Monty Python than anything else. They were not amused.
                    When coins were found in Jewish tombs we always, prior to this find' believed that they simply fell out of someone's pocket in times of burial however these two specific cases, one in particular stuck to the palate of the woman, argue for a folk belief amongst some Jews that when death comes it just may not hurt to place a coin in the mouth of the deceased to help him/her to pay the boatman in order to cross the river Styx. I wouldn't call it a custom, more like abherent folk behavior  in  times of death.

                    Joe Zias

                    >

                    > There were two ossuaries with the family name Caiphas, one Joseph son

                    > of ....and the second bearing only the family name Caiphas

                    > Unfortunately, religious fanatics were stoning us during the

                    > excavation and we were eventually forced to abandon the excavation,

                    > though we were fortunate to take the ossuaries to the museum for

                    > examination. One interesting fact though glossed over by many is that

                    > I, working alongside Ronnie Reich the excavator, found a coin in

                    > situ in the palate of one of the woman in an ossuary. Seems she was

                    > 'covering all her bets' with this Pagan custom and in retrospect this

                    > seems to have been for me personally, one of the more hypocritical

                    > customs observed due to the fact that this was the family of the High

                    > Priest. Little bit of back sliding it seems. Later I spoke to David

                    > Flusser about this and he asked if it was male of female, when I told

                    > him it was an adult female, he simply shrugged as if to say, I'm not

                    > all that surprised.

                    >

                    > Joe

                    >



                    ++++++



                    Jim West, ThD



                    http://jwest. wordpress. com - Blog

                    http://sites. google.com/ site/biblicalstu diesresources/ - Biblical Studies Resources


























                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Antonio Lombatti
                    ... Over more then 3000 Jewish tombs in the timeframe II BC - I AD have been excavated, coins are a rare occurrence. Only a scattering of coins have been found
                    Message 9 of 22 , Oct 9, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Il giorno 09/ott/08, alle ore 19:21, Jim West ha scritto:

                      > > I'd like to hear more about this pagan custom and its place in
                      > Jewish
                      > > practice.
                      >



                      Over more then 3000 Jewish tombs in the timeframe II BC - I AD have
                      been excavated, coins are a rare occurrence. Only a scattering of
                      coins have been found in various Jerusalem, Ein Gedi, Bet She'arim,
                      and Jericho tombs and most of them not in situ. Usually they are not
                      related to the dead people buried there. In rare occasions coins were
                      found near the skulls, and on two occasions inside the skulls.
                      However, these skulls were fragmentary so it's not that easy to say if
                      the coins were originally near or on the skull.

                      The explanation is quite easy: as Jews were often influenced by the
                      surrounding Hellenistic culture, on occasions they adopted Hellenistic
                      practices and customs. This is probably a payment for Charon -
                      Charon's obol - for ferrying the deceased across the river Styx. In
                      Beth She'arim tombs a carving of a Charon's boat was even spotten on
                      the limestone.

                      Antonio Lombatti


                      ----------------------------------
                      http://www.antoniolombatti.it








                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Stern, Richard H.
                      In blaming this on the wives (harking back to the women who reviled Jeremiah in Egypt about how well off they were until his lot made them stop paying respect
                      Message 10 of 22 , Oct 9, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        In blaming this on the wives (harking back to the women who reviled Jeremiah in Egypt about how well off they were until his lot made them stop paying respect to Asherah), you should take into account that many or most of these wives were themselves the daughters of kohanim, given the custom of making sure of the propriety of wife lineage by marrying the daughter of a kohen (or at least a levite). Doesn't that make it more improbable that priests' wives were backsliders? As for the Greek bone gatherer, why should he care?

                        =====================================
                        Best regards.

                        Richard H. Stern
                        rstern@... rstern@...
                        Washington, DC 20036
                        http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                        =====================================
                        NOTICE: This transmission is intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately via reply e-mail, and then destroy all instances of this communication. Thank you.

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe Zias
                        Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 2:00 PM
                        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus/Caiphas

                        Jim West wrote

                        I'd like to hear more about this pagan custom (coins in the mouth after death)  and its place in Jewish practice.
                        I've never seen any research on this topic however from time to time we would find small coins in Jewish tombs and in one occasion (Jericho/ Smith-Hachlili) inside the cranium. The latter case received quite a bit of unwarranted attention by the pro-Turin Shroud folks as they claimed that they could see coins  from none other than Pontius Pilatus  on the shroud and 'as by custom they were placed on the eyes of the decease prior to burial.' This was never a Jewish custom in antiquity and placing the coins of the person responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus sounds more like Monty Python than anything else. They were not amused.
                        When coins were found in Jewish tombs we always, prior to this find' believed that they simply fell out of someone's pocket in times of burial however these two specific cases, one in particular stuck to the palate of the woman, argue for a folk belief amongst some Jews that when death comes it just may not hurt to place a coin in the mouth of the deceased to help him/her to pay the boatman in order to cross the river Styx. I wouldn't call it a custom, more like abherent folk behavior  in  times of death.


                        Joe Zias

                        >

                        > There were two ossuaries with the family name Caiphas, one Joseph son

                        > of ....and the second bearing only the family name Caiphas

                        > Unfortunately, religious fanatics were stoning us during the

                        > excavation and we were eventually forced to abandon the excavation,

                        > though we were fortunate to take the ossuaries to the museum for

                        > examination. One interesting fact though glossed over by many is that

                        > I, working alongside Ronnie Reich the excavator, found a coin in

                        > situ in the palate of one of the woman in an ossuary. Seems she was

                        > 'covering all her bets' with this Pagan custom and in retrospect this

                        > seems to have been for me personally, one of the more hypocritical

                        > customs observed due to the fact that this was the family of the High

                        > Priest. Little bit of back sliding it seems. Later I spoke to David

                        > Flusser about this and he asked if it was male of female, when I told

                        > him it was an adult female, he simply shrugged as if to say, I'm not

                        > all that surprised.

                        >

                        > Joe

                        >



                        ++++++



                        Jim West, ThD



                        http://jwest. wordpress. com - Blog

                        http://sites. google.com/ site/biblicalstu diesresources/ - Biblical Studies Resources


























                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                        ------------------------------------

                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                      • Jim West
                        Is there a photo of this tomb online? ... ++++++ Jim West, ThD http://jwest.wordpress.com - Blog http://sites.google.com/site/biblicalstudiesresources/ -
                        Message 11 of 22 , Oct 9, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Is there a photo of this tomb online?

                          Antonio Lombatti wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > The explanation is quite easy: as Jews were often influenced by the
                          > surrounding Hellenistic culture, on occasions they adopted Hellenistic
                          > practices and customs. This is probably a payment for Charon -
                          > Charon's obol - for ferrying the deceased across the river Styx. In
                          > Beth She'arim tombs a carving of a Charon's boat was even spotten on
                          > the limestone.
                          >
                          > Antonio Lombatti
                          >











                          ++++++

                          Jim West, ThD

                          http://jwest.wordpress.com - Blog
                          http://sites.google.com/site/biblicalstudiesresources/ - Biblical Studies Resources
                        • Joe Zias
                          Dealing with all the theological issues surround ossuaries is not my area of expertise, L.Y. Rahmani and Eric Meyers are still in my opinion the last word of
                          Message 12 of 22 , Oct 9, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Dealing with all the theological issues surround ossuaries is not my area of expertise, L.Y. Rahmani and Eric Meyers are still in my opinion the 'last word' of the custom. One thing however is clear and that is the coin was not placed there by the 'bone gatherers' but was placed there at time of death as it had adhered to her palate. Once the flesh had decayed after one year the coin would not have adhered.
                            Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                            Anthropology/Paleopathology

                            Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                            Jerusalem, Israel

                            --- On Thu, 10/9/08, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:
                            From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
                            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus/Caiphas
                            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 1:56 PM











                            There seems to be an assumption, not in evidence, that ossilegium had

                            something to do with resurrection expectation. I don't think so myself,

                            otherwise the HP, the chief, top dog, honcho Sadducee, would not have been

                            bone-boxed. The grandaughter of the High Priest Theophilos was buried in

                            Rahmani 871 which suggests to me that Theophilos was also bone-boxed in

                            whatever tomb 871 originated. Interesting about the woman. There is

                            evidence that some women in late second temple times still maintained

                            Asherah statuettes.. .maybe for fertility. Joe, do you think that women,

                            generally "outsiders" at the Beyt Yahweh, had a tendency to do their "own

                            thing?" Of course, since the deceased could not have placed the coin in her

                            own mouth, I wonder if it was one of the "bone-gatherers. "



                            The sloppiness and quasi-literate scribbles often found on ossuaries,

                            including the wealthy Caiaphas, lead me to believe that neither family

                            members or othe Jews actually gathered the bones themselves.. .purity

                            issues...and there may have been a class of non-Jews who performed this

                            service, for a fee.



                            There's a great story for a novel. A Greek bone-gatherer falls in love with

                            the daughter of the High Priest and secretly places her ferry fare across

                            the styx in her mouth.



                            Jack



                            Jack Kilmon

                            San Antonio, TX



                            ----- Original Message -----

                            From: "Joe Zias" <joezias@yahoo. com>

                            To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups. com>

                            Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 11:28 AM

                            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus/ Caiphas



                            > There were two ossuaries with the family name Caiphas, one Joseph son of

                            > ....and the second bearing only the family name Caiphas Unfortunately,

                            > religious fanatics were stoning us during the excavation and we were

                            > eventually forced to abandon the excavation, though we were fortunate to

                            > take the ossuaries to the museum for examination. One interesting fact

                            > though glossed over by many is that I, working alongside Ronnie Reich the

                            > excavator, found a coin in situ in the palate of one of the woman in an

                            > ossuary. Seems she was 'covering all her bets' with this Pagan custom and

                            > in retrospect this seems to have been for me personally, one of the more

                            > hypocritical customs observed due to the fact that this was the family of

                            > the High Priest. Little bit of back sliding it seems. Later I spoke to

                            > David Flusser about this and he asked if it was male of female, when I

                            > told him it was an adult female, he simply shrugged as if to say, I'm not

                            > all that surprised.

                            >

                            > Joe

                            >

                            > Joe Zias www.joezias. com

                            > Anthropology/ Paleopathology

                            >

                            > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem

                            > Jerusalem, Israel

                            >

                            > --- On Thu, 10/9/08, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@historian. net> wrote:

                            > From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@historian. net>

                            > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus

                            > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com

                            > Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 9:38 AM

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            > Hi George:

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            > Yes, we do have Caiphas' ossuary and the inscription on it is YHWSF BR

                            > QYF)

                            >

                            > and not the Greek form of his name (I think Joe Zias examined the skeletal

                            >

                            > remains). That is why I was wondering if xxbn may be part of the

                            > semitized

                            >

                            > name of one of the many Greek names used for the HPs. I can't speak for

                            >

                            > Robert and I believe he is a member here, but I am sure he meant that the

                            > BN

                            >

                            > as a suffix could be a possibility that requires closer examination of the

                            >

                            > damaged margin between the broken edge of the sarc lid and the BN that

                            >

                            > appears to show up on the photos. I see what looks like an incised mark

                            >

                            > over and slightly to the right of the Beyt.

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            > I am sure that HPs like Theophilos, i.e., had Hebrew/Aramaic names in

                            >

                            > addition to their Greek names (even though this HPs name on his

                            >

                            > grandaughter' s ossuary is transliterated Greek to Hebrew). Hopefully in

                            >

                            > this ongoing excavation they will find other shards of this sarcophagus.

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            > The more I study the inscription from a paleographic standpoint, the more

                            > I

                            >

                            > think it is late Hasmonean... .but this is part of an amateur's fun with

                            > new

                            >

                            > epigraphic discoveries.

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            > Jack

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            > ----- Original Message -----

                            >

                            > From: "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel@yahoo. com>

                            >

                            > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups. com>

                            >

                            > Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 5:13 PM

                            >

                            > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >> If you are suggesting xxBN HKHN HGDL then none of the names suggested in

                            >

                            >> the article as being high priests of this period would end with BN. It

                            >

                            >> would then likely require a different time frame (which may not be a

                            >

                            >> problem since I am not aware of how well-established this time frame

                            >> might

                            >

                            >> be). I note that Caiphas is included. Do we not already have an ossuary

                            >

                            >> attributed to him?

                            >

                            >>

                            >

                            >> george

                            >

                            >> gfsomsel

                            >

                            >>

                            >

                            >>

                            >

                            >> . search for truth, hear truth,

                            >

                            >> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,

                            >

                            >> defend the truth till death.

                            >

                            >>

                            >

                            >>

                            >

                            >> - Jan Hus

                            >

                            >> _________

                            >

                            >>

                            >

                            >>

                            >

                            >>

                            >

                            >> ----- Original Message ----

                            >

                            >> From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@historian. net>

                            >

                            >> To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com

                            >

                            >> Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 4:14:39 PM

                            >

                            >> Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus

                            >

                            >>

                            >

                            >>

                            >

                            >> No, I noted that an excellent epigrapher suggested it...I was refering to

                            >

                            >> Robert, of course since he is one of the best. His books have sure taught

                            >

                            >> me a lot. Since the text is in Hebrew I suspect that if the -BN is the

                            >

                            >> suffix of a name, as Robert suggests, it may be the Semitic version of

                            >> one

                            >

                            >> of the many Greek names used.

                            >

                            >>

                            >

                            >> Regards,

                            >

                            >>

                            >

                            >> Jack Kilmon

                            >

                            >>

                            >

                            >> ----- Original Message -----

                            >

                            >> From: "Christopher Conlan" <chris_conlan@ yahoo.co. uk>

                            >

                            >> To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups. com>

                            >

                            >> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 2:57 PM

                            >

                            >> Subject: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus

                            >

                            >>

                            >

                            >>>I am fairly certain that Jack Kilmon raised this possibility earlier

                            >

                            >>> today, and noted that there are no known High Priests whose name ends

                            >

                            >>> <...>bn - that would seem like a real problem with this theory.

                            >

                            >>>

                            >

                            >>> I guess that the value of the piece would be significantly higher if

                            >

                            >>> it is the sarcophagus of a "known" High Priest, than if it is the

                            >

                            >>> sarcophagus of the son of an unknown High Priest...

                            >

                            >>>

                            >

                            >>> Christopher Conlan

                            >

                            >>> Washington, DC

                            >

                            >>>

                            >

                            >>> --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, "Robert Deutsch" <mail@...> wrote:

                            >

                            >>>>

                            >

                            >>>> Dear list members,

                            >

                            >>>>

                            >

                            >>>> The interpretation of the inscription make no sense !

                            >

                            >>>> Can a certain person be the son of an anonymous High Priest ?

                            >

                            >>>>

                            >

                            >>>> As the right side of the fragment is damaged and the surface

                            >

                            >>>> before the first visible letter is missing, I will suggest a

                            >

                            >>>> different reading:

                            >

                            >>>>

                            >

                            >>>> [....]bn the High Priest

                            >

                            >>>> Where the "...bn" is the suffix of a personal name.

                            >

                            >>>>

                            >

                            >>>> This means that the sarcophagus belongs to a named High Priest

                            >

                            >>>> and not to a son of an anonymous High Priest.

                            >

                            >>>>

                            >

                            >>>> Robert Deutsch

                            >

                            >> .

                            >

                            >>

                            >

                            >>

                            >

                            >>

                            >

                            >>

                            >

                            >>

                            >

                            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            >

                            >>

                            >

                            >>

                            >

                            >> ------------ --------- --------- ------

                            >

                            >>

                            >

                            >> Yahoo! Groups Links

                            >

                            >>

                            >

                            >>

                            >

                            >>

                            >

                            >>

                            >

                            >>

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            >

                            >

                            > ------------ --------- --------- ------

                            >

                            > Yahoo! Groups Links

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >


























                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Joe Zias
                            One can find a photo of one of the ossuaries on line, however I was unable to take a photograph of the coin in situ, due to the continual harassment occurring
                            Message 13 of 22 , Oct 9, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              One can find a photo of one of the ossuaries on line, however I was unable to take a photograph of the coin in situ, due to the continual harassment occurring above us. Police would arrive, arrest a few and a few minutes later, another group of yeshiva students would appear and stone us.  In the end they won. The find was publ. by Ronnie Reich and I publ the anthro. report along with it. The number of sub-adults in the tomb 68% was the highest ever recorded for the period where 50 % is the norm.

                              Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                              Anthropology/Paleopathology

                              Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                              Jerusalem, Israel

                              --- On Thu, 10/9/08, Jim West <jwest@...> wrote:
                              From: Jim West <jwest@...>
                              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus/Caiphas
                              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 2:35 PM











                              Is there a photo of this tomb online?



                              Antonio Lombatti wrote:

                              >

                              >

                              > The explanation is quite easy: as Jews were often influenced by the

                              > surrounding Hellenistic culture, on occasions they adopted Hellenistic

                              > practices and customs. This is probably a payment for Charon -

                              > Charon's obol - for ferrying the deceased across the river Styx. In

                              > Beth She'arim tombs a carving of a Charon's boat was even spotten on

                              > the limestone.

                              >

                              > Antonio Lombatti

                              >



                              ++++++



                              Jim West, ThD



                              http://jwest. wordpress. com - Blog

                              http://sites. google.com/ site/biblicalstu diesresources/ - Biblical Studies Resources


























                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Joe Zias
                              As for marriage custom I think that you are confusing this with the Islamic custom of marrying within the extended family whereas this was not a Jewish custom
                              Message 14 of 22 , Oct 9, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                As for marriage custom I think that you are confusing this with the Islamic custom of marrying within the extended family whereas this was not a Jewish custom and those gathering the remains for re-internment a year later were Jews and not Greeks.
                                Joe
                                Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                                Anthropology/Paleopathology

                                Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                                Jerusalem, Israel

                                --- On Thu, 10/9/08, Stern, Richard H. <RSTERN@...> wrote:
                                From: Stern, Richard H. <RSTERN@...>
                                Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus/Caiphas
                                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 2:18 PM











                                In blaming this on the wives (harking back to the women who reviled Jeremiah in Egypt about how well off they were until his lot made them stop paying respect to Asherah), you should take into account that many or most of these wives were themselves the daughters of kohanim, given the custom of making sure of the propriety of wife lineage by marrying the daughter of a kohen (or at least a levite). Doesn't that make it more improbable that priests' wives were backsliders? As for the Greek bone gatherer, why should he care?



                                ============ ========= ========= =======

                                Best regards.



                                Richard H. Stern

                                rstern@computer. org rstern@khhte. com

                                Washington, DC 20036

                                http://docs. law.gwu.edu/ facweb/claw/ rhs1.htm

                                ============ ========= ========= =======

                                NOTICE: This transmission is intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately via reply e-mail, and then destroy all instances of this communication. Thank you.



                                -----Original Message-----

                                From: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Joe Zias

                                Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 2:00 PM

                                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com

                                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus/ Caiphas



                                Jim West wrote



                                I'd like to hear more about this pagan custom (coins in the mouth after death)  and its place in Jewish practice.

                                I've never seen any research on this topic however from time to time we would find small coins in Jewish tombs and in one occasion (Jericho/ Smith-Hachlili) inside the cranium. The latter case received quite a bit of unwarranted attention by the pro-Turin Shroud folks as they claimed that they could see coins  from none other than Pontius Pilatus  on the shroud and 'as by custom they were placed on the eyes of the decease prior to burial.' This was never a Jewish custom in antiquity and placing the coins of the person responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus sounds more like Monty Python than anything else. They were not amused.

                                When coins were found in Jewish tombs we always, prior to this find' believed that they simply fell out of someone's pocket in times of burial however these two specific cases, one in particular stuck to the palate of the woman, argue for a folk belief amongst some Jews that when death comes it just may not hurt to place a coin in the mouth of the deceased to help him/her to pay the boatman in order to cross the river Styx. I wouldn't call it a custom, more like abherent folk behavior  in  times of death.



                                Joe Zias



                                >



                                > There were two ossuaries with the family name Caiphas, one Joseph son



                                > of ....and the second bearing only the family name Caiphas



                                > Unfortunately, religious fanatics were stoning us during the



                                > excavation and we were eventually forced to abandon the excavation,



                                > though we were fortunate to take the ossuaries to the museum for



                                > examination. One interesting fact though glossed over by many is that



                                > I, working alongside Ronnie Reich the excavator, found a coin in



                                > situ in the palate of one of the woman in an ossuary. Seems she was



                                > 'covering all her bets' with this Pagan custom and in retrospect this



                                > seems to have been for me personally, one of the more hypocritical



                                > customs observed due to the fact that this was the family of the High



                                > Priest. Little bit of back sliding it seems. Later I spoke to David



                                > Flusser about this and he asked if it was male of female, when I told



                                > him it was an adult female, he simply shrugged as if to say, I'm not



                                > all that surprised.



                                >



                                > Joe



                                >



                                ++++++



                                Jim West, ThD



                                http://jwest. wordpress. com - Blog



                                http://sites. google.com/ site/biblicalstu diesresources/ - Biblical Studies Resources























                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                ------------ --------- --------- ------



                                Yahoo! Groups Links


























                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Antonio Lombatti
                                ... Not that I m aware of. Ships symbolize journeys and they were often associated to death in many cultures. When ossilegium was practiced, death was viewed
                                Message 15 of 22 , Oct 9, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Il giorno 09/ott/08, alle ore 20:35, Jim West ha scritto:

                                  > > Is there a photo of this tomb online?
                                  >


                                  Not that I'm aware of. Ships symbolize journeys and they were often
                                  associated to death in many cultures. When ossilegium was practiced,
                                  death was viewed as the beginning of an extented process with death
                                  being complete only when flesh was fully decayed. Ships appeared in
                                  funerary art already at the end of VIII cent. BC at Hurvat Loya, and
                                  some other graffiti were discovered on the walls of Jason's tomb.

                                  Jim, I have the drawings and photos of those "funerary
                                  ships" (somewhere in my home library or on-under-near my writing
                                  desk...) just in case you want to see them.

                                  Two outstanding papers on Jewish burial customs related to coins found
                                  in Second Temple burial caves are the following:

                                  R. HACHLILI - A. KILLEBREW, "Jewish funerary customs during Second
                                  Temple period in light of the excavations at the Jericho necropolis".
                                  Palestine Exploration Quarterly 115 (1983): 109-132

                                  R. HACHLILI - A. KILLEBREW, "Was the coin-on-the-eye custom a Jewish
                                  burial practice in the Second Temple period?". Biblical Archaeologist
                                  46 (1983): 147-153.

                                  And the second one is the one I like most, since it (partly) debunks
                                  Turin Shroud pseudoscience...

                                  Antonio Lombatti

                                  ----------------------------------
                                  http://www.antoniolombatti.it








                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Jim West
                                  Yes, I think I would. ... ++++++ Jim West, ThD http://jwest.wordpress.com - Blog http://sites.google.com/site/biblicalstudiesresources/ - Biblical Studies
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Oct 9, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Yes, I think I would.

                                    Antonio Lombatti wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Jim, I have the drawings and photos of those "funerary
                                    > ships" (somewhere in my home library or on-under-near my writing
                                    > desk...) just in case you want to see them.
                                    >





                                    ++++++

                                    Jim West, ThD

                                    http://jwest.wordpress.com - Blog
                                    http://sites.google.com/site/biblicalstudiesresources/ - Biblical Studies Resources
                                  • Stern, Richard H.
                                    Joe, the marriage custom I referred to was strictly kosher not Islamic. In the first century, it was common for kohanim to marry daughters of kohanim (or
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Oct 9, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Joe, the marriage custom I referred to was strictly kosher not Islamic.
                                      In the first century, it was common for kohanim to marry daughters of kohanim (or levites) because their father and mother had already had their pedigrees certified for 3 generations, making it unnecessary to review that of their daughters. (The 3 generation rule is discussed extensively in Jeremias, Jerusalem at the Time of Jesus, along with other descent purity rules.)
                                      By marrying the daughter of a kohen, a kohen could be sure of two things: (1) the wife had been brought up in a household that made her already familiar with domestic rules governing kohanim; (2) her descent on both sides for 3 generations had already been investigated and ok'd (at the time of the marriage of her father and his enrollment as a kohen). This descent status corresponds to what Ashkenazim used to term a "double koin" and considered to be desirable for unexplained reasons. (You don't see many of them any more. I have known only one.)

                                      =====================================
                                      Best regards.

                                      Richard H. Stern
                                      rstern@... rstern@...
                                      http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                                      =====================================

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe Zias
                                      Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 2:51 PM
                                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus/Caiphas

                                      As for marriage custom I think that you are confusing this with the Islamic custom of marrying within the extended family whereas this was not a Jewish custom and those gathering the remains for re-internment a year later were Jews and not Greeks.
                                      Joe
                                      Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                                      Anthropology/Paleopathology

                                      Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                                      Jerusalem, Israel

                                      --- On Thu, 10/9/08, Stern, Richard H. <RSTERN@...> wrote:
                                      From: Stern, Richard H. <RSTERN@...>
                                      Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus/Caiphas
                                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 2:18 PM











                                      In blaming this on the wives (harking back to the women who reviled Jeremiah in Egypt about how well off they were until his lot made them stop paying respect to Asherah), you should take into account that many or most of these wives were themselves the daughters of kohanim, given the custom of making sure of the propriety of wife lineage by marrying the daughter of a kohen (or at least a levite). Doesn't that make it more improbable that priests' wives were backsliders? As for the Greek bone gatherer, why should he care?



                                      ============ ========= ========= =======

                                      Best regards.



                                      Richard H. Stern

                                      rstern@computer. org rstern@khhte. com

                                      Washington, DC 20036

                                      http://docs. law.gwu.edu/ facweb/claw/ rhs1.htm

                                      ============ ========= ========= =======

                                      NOTICE: This transmission is intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately via reply e-mail, and then destroy all instances of this communication. Thank you.



                                      -----Original Message-----

                                      From: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Joe Zias

                                      Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 2:00 PM

                                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com

                                      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus/ Caiphas



                                      Jim West wrote



                                      I'd like to hear more about this pagan custom (coins in the mouth after death)  and its place in Jewish practice.

                                      I've never seen any research on this topic however from time to time we would find small coins in Jewish tombs and in one occasion (Jericho/ Smith-Hachlili) inside the cranium. The latter case received quite a bit of unwarranted attention by the pro-Turin Shroud folks as they claimed that they could see coins  from none other than Pontius Pilatus  on the shroud and 'as by custom they were placed on the eyes of the decease prior to burial.' This was never a Jewish custom in antiquity and placing the coins of the person responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus sounds more like Monty Python than anything else. They were not amused.

                                      When coins were found in Jewish tombs we always, prior to this find' believed that they simply fell out of someone's pocket in times of burial however these two specific cases, one in particular stuck to the palate of the woman, argue for a folk belief amongst some Jews that when death comes it just may not hurt to place a coin in the mouth of the deceased to help him/her to pay the boatman in order to cross the river Styx. I wouldn't call it a custom, more like abherent folk behavior  in  times of death.




                                      Joe Zias



                                      >



                                      > There were two ossuaries with the family name Caiphas, one Joseph son



                                      > of ....and the second bearing only the family name Caiphas



                                      > Unfortunately, religious fanatics were stoning us during the



                                      > excavation and we were eventually forced to abandon the excavation,



                                      > though we were fortunate to take the ossuaries to the museum for



                                      > examination. One interesting fact though glossed over by many is that



                                      > I, working alongside Ronnie Reich the excavator, found a coin in



                                      > situ in the palate of one of the woman in an ossuary. Seems she was



                                      > 'covering all her bets' with this Pagan custom and in retrospect this



                                      > seems to have been for me personally, one of the more hypocritical



                                      > customs observed due to the fact that this was the family of the High



                                      > Priest. Little bit of back sliding it seems. Later I spoke to David



                                      > Flusser about this and he asked if it was male of female, when I told



                                      > him it was an adult female, he simply shrugged as if to say, I'm not



                                      > all that surprised.



                                      >



                                      > Joe



                                      >



                                      ++++++



                                      Jim West, ThD



                                      http://jwest. wordpress. com - Blog



                                      http://sites. google.com/ site/biblicalstu diesresources/ - Biblical Studies Resources























                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                      ------------ --------- --------- ------



                                      Yahoo! Groups Links


























                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                                      ------------------------------------

                                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    • Joe Zias
                                      Friends always regard me as RC or religiously challenged and after reading your posting I see that they were right. thanks for the info. Any breakdown on
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Oct 9, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Friends always regard me as RC or 'religiously challenged' and after reading your posting I see that they were right. thanks for the info. Any breakdown on percentages of Levites and Cohenim vs the Israelites ?
                                        Joe

                                        Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                                        Anthropology/Paleopathology

                                        Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                                        Jerusalem, Israel

                                        --- On Thu, 10/9/08, Stern, Richard H. <RSTERN@...> wrote:
                                        From: Stern, Richard H. <RSTERN@...>
                                        Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus/Caiphas
                                        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 3:20 PM











                                        Joe, the marriage custom I referred to was strictly kosher not Islamic.

                                        In the first century, it was common for kohanim to marry daughters of kohanim (or levites) because their father and mother had already had their pedigrees certified for 3 generations, making it unnecessary to review that of their daughters. (The 3 generation rule is discussed extensively in Jeremias, Jerusalem at the Time of Jesus, along with other descent purity rules.)

                                        By marrying the daughter of a kohen, a kohen could be sure of two things: (1) the wife had been brought up in a household that made her already familiar with domestic rules governing kohanim; (2) her descent on both sides for 3 generations had already been investigated and ok'd (at the time of the marriage of her father and his enrollment as a kohen). This descent status corresponds to what Ashkenazim used to term a "double koin" and considered to be desirable for unexplained reasons. (You don't see many of them any more. I have known only one.)



                                        ============ ========= ========= =======

                                        Best regards.



                                        Richard H. Stern

                                        rstern@computer. org rstern@khhte. com

                                        http://docs. law.gwu.edu/ facweb/claw/ rhs1.htm

                                        ============ ========= ========= =======



                                        -----Original Message-----

                                        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Joe Zias

                                        Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 2:51 PM

                                        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com

                                        Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus/ Caiphas



                                        As for marriage custom I think that you are confusing this with the Islamic custom of marrying within the extended family whereas this was not a Jewish custom and those gathering the remains for re-internment a year later were Jews and not Greeks.

                                        Joe

                                        Joe Zias www.joezias. com

                                        Anthropology/ Paleopathology



                                        Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem

                                        Jerusalem, Israel



                                        --- On Thu, 10/9/08, Stern, Richard H. <RSTERN@KHHTE. com> wrote:

                                        From: Stern, Richard H. <RSTERN@KHHTE. com>

                                        Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus/ Caiphas

                                        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com

                                        Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 2:18 PM



                                        In blaming this on the wives (harking back to the women who reviled Jeremiah in Egypt about how well off they were until his lot made them stop paying respect to Asherah), you should take into account that many or most of these wives were themselves the daughters of kohanim, given the custom of making sure of the propriety of wife lineage by marrying the daughter of a kohen (or at least a levite). Doesn't that make it more improbable that priests' wives were backsliders? As for the Greek bone gatherer, why should he care?



                                        ============ ========= ========= =======



                                        Best regards.



                                        Richard H. Stern



                                        rstern@computer. org rstern@khhte. com



                                        Washington, DC 20036



                                        http://docs. law.gwu.edu/ facweb/claw/ rhs1.htm



                                        ============ ========= ========= =======



                                        NOTICE: This transmission is intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately via reply e-mail, and then destroy all instances of this communication. Thank you.



                                        -----Original Message-----



                                        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com [mailto:ANE- 2@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Joe Zias



                                        Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 2:00 PM



                                        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com



                                        Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus/ Caiphas



                                        Jim West wrote



                                        I'd like to hear more about this pagan custom (coins in the mouth after death)  and its place in Jewish practice.



                                        I've never seen any research on this topic however from time to time we would find small coins in Jewish tombs and in one occasion (Jericho/ Smith-Hachlili) inside the cranium. The latter case received quite a bit of unwarranted attention by the pro-Turin Shroud folks as they claimed that they could see coins  from none other than Pontius Pilatus  on the shroud and 'as by custom they were placed on the eyes of the decease prior to burial.' This was never a Jewish custom in antiquity and placing the coins of the person responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus sounds more like Monty Python than anything else. They were not amused.



                                        When coins were found in Jewish tombs we always, prior to this find' believed that they simply fell out of someone's pocket in times of burial however these two specific cases, one in particular stuck to the palate of the woman, argue for a folk belief amongst some Jews that when death comes it just may not hurt to place a coin in the mouth of the deceased to help him/her to pay the boatman in order to cross the river Styx. I wouldn't call it a custom, more like abherent folk behavior  in  times of death.



                                        Joe Zias



                                        >



                                        > There were two ossuaries with the family name Caiphas, one Joseph son



                                        > of ....and the second bearing only the family name Caiphas



                                        > Unfortunately, religious fanatics were stoning us during the



                                        > excavation and we were eventually forced to abandon the excavation,



                                        > though we were fortunate to take the ossuaries to the museum for



                                        > examination. One interesting fact though glossed over by many is that



                                        > I, working alongside Ronnie Reich the excavator, found a coin in



                                        > situ in the palate of one of the woman in an ossuary. Seems she was



                                        > 'covering all her bets' with this Pagan custom and in retrospect this



                                        > seems to have been for me personally, one of the more hypocritical



                                        > customs observed due to the fact that this was the family of the High



                                        > Priest. Little bit of back sliding it seems. Later I spoke to David



                                        > Flusser about this and he asked if it was male of female, when I told



                                        > him it was an adult female, he simply shrugged as if to say, I'm not



                                        > all that surprised.



                                        >



                                        > Joe



                                        >



                                        ++++++



                                        Jim West, ThD



                                        http://jwest. wordpress. com - Blog



                                        http://sites. google.com/ site/biblicalstu diesresources/ - Biblical Studies Resources































                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                        ------------ --------- --------- ------



                                        Yahoo! Groups Links























                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                        ------------ --------- --------- ------



                                        Yahoo! Groups Links


























                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Jack Kilmon
                                        The Caiaphas family tomb? I would bet that Joe Zias has some. Jack Jack Kilmon San Antonio, TX ... From: Jim West To:
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Oct 9, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          The Caiaphas family tomb? I would bet that Joe Zias has some.

                                          Jack


                                          Jack Kilmon
                                          San Antonio, TX


                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: "Jim West" <jwest@...>
                                          To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 1:35 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus/Caiphas


                                          > Is there a photo of this tomb online?
                                          >
                                          > Antonio Lombatti wrote:
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >> The explanation is quite easy: as Jews were often influenced by the
                                          >> surrounding Hellenistic culture, on occasions they adopted Hellenistic
                                          >> practices and customs. This is probably a payment for Charon -
                                          >> Charon's obol - for ferrying the deceased across the river Styx. In
                                          >> Beth She'arim tombs a carving of a Charon's boat was even spotten on
                                          >> the limestone.
                                          >>
                                          >> Antonio Lombatti
                                          >>
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ++++++
                                          >
                                          > Jim West, ThD
                                          >
                                          > http://jwest.wordpress.com - Blog
                                          > http://sites.google.com/site/biblicalstudiesresources/ - Biblical
                                          > Studies Resources
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ------------------------------------
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • Stern, Richard H.
                                          Breakdown-I think something on the order of 5-10%. ===================================== Best regards. Richard H. Stern rstern@computer.org rstern@khhte.com
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Oct 9, 2008
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Breakdown-I think something on the order of 5-10%.

                                            =====================================
                                            Best regards.

                                            Richard H. Stern
                                            rstern@... rstern@...
                                            http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                                            =====================================

                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe Zias
                                            Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 3:30 PM
                                            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus/Caiphas

                                            Friends always regard me as RC or 'religiously challenged' and after reading your posting I see that they were right. thanks for the info. Any breakdown on percentages of Levites and Cohenim vs the Israelites ?
                                            Joe

                                            Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                                            Anthropology/Paleopathology

                                            Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                                            Jerusalem, Israel

                                            --- On Thu, 10/9/08, Stern, Richard H. <RSTERN@...> wrote:
                                            From: Stern, Richard H. <RSTERN@...>
                                            Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus/Caiphas
                                            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                            Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 3:20 PM











                                            Joe, the marriage custom I referred to was strictly kosher not Islamic.

                                            In the first century, it was common for kohanim to marry daughters of kohanim (or levites) because their father and mother had already had their pedigrees certified for 3 generations, making it unnecessary to review that of their daughters. (The 3 generation rule is discussed extensively in Jeremias, Jerusalem at the Time of Jesus, along with other descent purity rules.)

                                            By marrying the daughter of a kohen, a kohen could be sure of two things: (1) the wife had been brought up in a household that made her already familiar with domestic rules governing kohanim; (2) her descent on both sides for 3 generations had already been investigated and ok'd (at the time of the marriage of her father and his enrollment as a kohen). This descent status corresponds to what Ashkenazim used to term a "double koin" and considered to be desirable for unexplained reasons. (You don't see many of them any more. I have known only one.)



                                            ============ ========= ========= =======

                                            Best regards.



                                            Richard H. Stern

                                            rstern@computer. org rstern@khhte. com

                                            http://docs. law.gwu.edu/ facweb/claw/ rhs1.htm

                                            ============ ========= ========= =======



                                            -----Original Message-----

                                            From: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Joe Zias

                                            Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 2:51 PM

                                            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com

                                            Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus/ Caiphas



                                            As for marriage custom I think that you are confusing this with the Islamic custom of marrying within the extended family whereas this was not a Jewish custom and those gathering the remains for re-internment a year later were Jews and not Greeks.

                                            Joe

                                            Joe Zias www.joezias. com

                                            Anthropology/ Paleopathology



                                            Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem

                                            Jerusalem, Israel



                                            --- On Thu, 10/9/08, Stern, Richard H. <RSTERN@KHHTE. com> wrote:

                                            From: Stern, Richard H. <RSTERN@KHHTE. com>

                                            Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus/ Caiphas

                                            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com

                                            Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 2:18 PM



                                            In blaming this on the wives (harking back to the women who reviled Jeremiah in Egypt about how well off they were until his lot made them stop paying respect to Asherah), you should take into account that many or most of these wives were themselves the daughters of kohanim, given the custom of making sure of the propriety of wife lineage by marrying the daughter of a kohen (or at least a levite). Doesn't that make it more improbable that priests' wives were backsliders? As for the Greek bone gatherer, why should he care?



                                            ============ ========= ========= =======



                                            Best regards.



                                            Richard H. Stern



                                            rstern@computer. org rstern@khhte. com



                                            Washington, DC 20036



                                            http://docs. law.gwu.edu/ facweb/claw/ rhs1.htm



                                            ============ ========= ========= =======



                                            NOTICE: This transmission is intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately via reply e-mail, and then destroy all instances of this communication. Thank you.



                                            -----Original Message-----



                                            From: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com [mailto:ANE- 2@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Joe Zias



                                            Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 2:00 PM



                                            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com



                                            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus/ Caiphas



                                            Jim West wrote



                                            I'd like to hear more about this pagan custom (coins in the mouth after death)  and its place in Jewish practice.



                                            I've never seen any research on this topic however from time to time we would find small coins in Jewish tombs and in one occasion (Jericho/ Smith-Hachlili) inside the cranium. The latter case received quite a bit of unwarranted attention by the pro-Turin Shroud folks as they claimed that they could see coins  from none other than Pontius Pilatus  on the shroud and 'as by custom they were placed on the eyes of the decease prior to burial.' This was never a Jewish custom in antiquity and placing the coins of the person responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus sounds more like Monty Python than anything else. They were not amused.



                                            When coins were found in Jewish tombs we always, prior to this find' believed that they simply fell out of someone's pocket in times of burial however these two specific cases, one in particular stuck to the palate of the woman, argue for a folk belief amongst some Jews that when death comes it just may not hurt to place a coin in the mouth of the deceased to help him/her to pay the boatman in order to cross the river Styx. I wouldn't call it a custom, more like abherent folk behavior  in  times of death.




                                            Joe Zias



                                            >



                                            > There were two ossuaries with the family name Caiphas, one Joseph son



                                            > of ....and the second bearing only the family name Caiphas



                                            > Unfortunately, religious fanatics were stoning us during the



                                            > excavation and we were eventually forced to abandon the excavation,



                                            > though we were fortunate to take the ossuaries to the museum for



                                            > examination. One interesting fact though glossed over by many is that



                                            > I, working alongside Ronnie Reich the excavator, found a coin in



                                            > situ in the palate of one of the woman in an ossuary. Seems she was



                                            > 'covering all her bets' with this Pagan custom and in retrospect this



                                            > seems to have been for me personally, one of the more hypocritical



                                            > customs observed due to the fact that this was the family of the High



                                            > Priest. Little bit of back sliding it seems. Later I spoke to David



                                            > Flusser about this and he asked if it was male of female, when I told



                                            > him it was an adult female, he simply shrugged as if to say, I'm not



                                            > all that surprised.



                                            >



                                            > Joe



                                            >



                                            ++++++



                                            Jim West, ThD



                                            http://jwest. wordpress. com - Blog



                                            http://sites. google.com/ site/biblicalstu diesresources/ - Biblical Studies Resources































                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                            ------------ --------- --------- ------



                                            Yahoo! Groups Links























                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                            ------------ --------- --------- ------



                                            Yahoo! Groups Links


























                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                                            ------------------------------------

                                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          • Joe Zias
                                            Photos, no I was too busy hiding and ducking the stones  thrown from above....A day or two later the site was in filled and there is nothing but a road there
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Oct 9, 2008
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Photos, no I was too busy hiding and ducking the stones  thrown from above....A day or two later the site was in filled and there is nothing but a road there today in what is called The Peace Forest' as it once was the No Mans Land between East and West Jerusalem.
                                              Joe

                                              Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                                              Anthropology/Paleopathology

                                              Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                                              Jerusalem, Israel

                                              --- On Thu, 10/9/08, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:
                                              From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
                                              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus/Caiphas
                                              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                              Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 3:32 PM











                                              The Caiaphas family tomb? I would bet that Joe Zias has some.



                                              Jack



                                              Jack Kilmon

                                              San Antonio, TX



                                              ----- Original Message -----

                                              From: "Jim West" <jwest@highland. net>

                                              To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups. com>

                                              Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 1:35 PM

                                              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: High Priest sarcophagus/ Caiphas



                                              > Is there a photo of this tomb online?

                                              >

                                              > Antonio Lombatti wrote:

                                              >>

                                              >>

                                              >> The explanation is quite easy: as Jews were often influenced by the

                                              >> surrounding Hellenistic culture, on occasions they adopted Hellenistic

                                              >> practices and customs. This is probably a payment for Charon -

                                              >> Charon's obol - for ferrying the deceased across the river Styx. In

                                              >> Beth She'arim tombs a carving of a Charon's boat was even spotten on

                                              >> the limestone.

                                              >>

                                              >> Antonio Lombatti

                                              >>

                                              >

                                              >

                                              >

                                              >

                                              >

                                              >

                                              >

                                              >

                                              >

                                              >

                                              >

                                              > ++++++

                                              >

                                              > Jim West, ThD

                                              >

                                              > http://jwest. wordpress. com - Blog

                                              > http://sites. google.com/ site/biblicalstu diesresources/ - Biblical

                                              > Studies Resources

                                              >

                                              >

                                              > ------------ --------- --------- ------

                                              >

                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links

                                              >

                                              >

                                              >

                                              >


























                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.