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SV: SV: [ANE-2] Re: Was Dan "in ships", or "complacent"?

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  • Niels Peter Lemche
    George, You are still embedded in an old way of reasoning. Hezekiah is definitely a different case, because of Sennacherib. The Siloam inscription has no
    Message 1 of 106 , Jul 1 3:13 AM

      You are still embedded in an old way of reasoning. Hezekiah is definitely a different case, because of Sennacherib. The Siloam inscription has no saying on Hezekiah, although I definitely do not subscribe to the idea that was up in the mid 1990s that it is late, even Hasmonean. It is definitely Iron Age. It is biblical scholars who have related it to Hezekiah. But, still, Hezekiah is safe, as several other kings of the Iron Age, like Akab, Manasse, Peka, Hosea, and more. And the chronology of the 8th-7th century kings is not bad when compared to external evidence.

      Niels Peter Lemche

      -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
      Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af George F Somsel
      Sendt: 1. juli 2008 11:24
      Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Re: Was Dan "in ships", or "complacent"?

      I note from the dates you give that you apparently have no doubts concerning the existence of a king in Jerusalem named Hezekiah.  That is well since there seems to be evidence supporting the claim of the biblical text
      20 The rest of the deeds of Hezekiah, all his power, how he made the pool and the conduit and brought water into the city, are they not written in the Book of the Annals of the Kings of Judah? 21 Hezekiahslept with his ancestors; and his son Manasseh succeeded him.
      The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (2 Ki 20:20-21). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

      The Siloam Tunnel Inscription 
      [The day of] the breach.
      This is the record of how the tunnel was breached.
      While [the excavators were wielding] their pick-axes, each man towards his co-worker,
      and while there were yet three cubits for the brea[ch,]
      a voice [was hea]rd
      each man calling to his co-worker;
      because there was a cavity in the rock (extending)
      from the south to [the north].
      So on the day of the breach,
      the excavators struck,
      each man to meet his co-worker,
      pick-axe against pick-[a]xe.
      Then the water flowed from the spring to the pool,
      a distance of one thousand and two hundred cubits.
      One hundred cubits was the height of the rock above the heads of the excavat[ors.]
      Hallo, W. W., & Younger, K. L. (2000). Context of Scripture (145). Leiden; Boston: Brill.
      I find your readiness to dismiss textual evidence so readily somewhat troubling.  It is not that I would say, "It is written …" and therefore claim that all things contained therein are absolutely true, but according to your view it would seem that these writers were simply novelists writing fiction.  There are even those today who give greater credance to the classical texts than you would give to the biblical account.  I read an article the other day where some scientists were claiming to establish the very day upon which Odysseus returned and slaughtered the suitors by a convergence of astronomical references in the Odyssey.  I find this rather questionable, but would not go so far as to deny that some conflict such as the Trojan war took place or even that there are valic reminisences of some of the protagonists mentioned in the Iliad (and by extension the Odyssey).  It would appear that your attitude borders on nihilism.

      … search for truth, hear truth,
      learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
      defend the truth till death.

      - Jan Hus

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: frankclancy <clancyfrank@...>
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 7:28:45 PM
      Subject: SV: [ANE-2] Re: Was Dan "in ships", or "complacent"?

      Scholarship is not a matter of proving and disproving Biblical texts,
      it is about what we know. There is no evidence that kings named
      David, Solomon, Rehoboam, Abijam, Asa, Jehoshaphat, Jehoram, Ahaziah,
      Jehoash, Amariah, Azariah, or Jotham ruled as kings in Jerusalem. In
      fact, there is no evidence that there was a king of any sort in
      Jerusalem from 1200 to 750-740 BCE. What we do have are texts that
      may have been written 500-900 years later. We have many texts from
      the first 2 centuries BCE that claim Ogygus and Inachus were real
      kings of ancient Greek cities about 1500 BCE. However, we know these
      texts were late and the two names belonged to mythical figures who
      were declared founders of dynasties and cities for ideological

      Fank Clancy

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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    • Ariel L. Szczupak
      ... I don t know what traditional means in this context. We know that human biology results in exponential growth (aka Malthusian) in ideal reproductive
      Message 106 of 106 , Jul 3 2:44 PM
        At 03:40 PM 7/3/2008, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

        >We are talking about a traditional society with traditional health
        >care. And a death rate among children of, say between 50 and 90%.

        I don't know what "traditional" means in this context.

        We know that human biology results in exponential growth (aka
        Malthusian) in "ideal" reproductive conditions (both environmental
        and social). I seem to recall that for humans the yearly growth rate
        figure (in ideal conditions) is somewhat above 5%. We also have hard
        data about populations in the present and near past which can be used
        to create models.

        And everything we know indicates that "static populations" are either
        a myth or extremely rare exceptions. When I first looked into how ANE
        population estimates were done (and was shocked), "common wisdom" had
        it that static populations could exist in primitive societies, e.g.
        the Amazonian tribes - but then the towns/cities in the Xingu region
        were discovered making these "stable size" societies something
        temporary (historically).

        I haven't seen anything that supports single-number population
        estimates for historical periods (i.e. more than one or two
        generations) being meaningful. All that I've seen (and to a certain
        degree researched) indicates that such numbers are simply pseudo-science.

        Note that archeological population estimates are different. They are
        based on material evidence from which a carrying capacity is
        calculated - i.e. a number that represents the maximal, or sometimes
        optimal, number of people that could be supported by the physical
        evidence that was discovered. I have many misgivings about specific
        archeological ANE population calculations I have seen, but at least
        the numbers, correct or not, are meaningful. But these capacity
        numbers become meaningless when they are turned into historical
        population numbers representing a century or more.

        Note also that mathematical averages are of course possible. The
        general process seem to be "sawtooth" like. I.e. an exponential
        growth (aka geometric, as opposed to linear growth) followed by a
        steep decline. These numbers can be averaged, but such averages
        remove the "sawtooth" aspect, making them practically meaningless
        from an historical point of view.

        I don't have quick access to my notes from back then, but a quick web
        search shows that the resources available online today on this
        subject are huge, and anyone interested can find a lot with just few

        Instead, two quick examples.

        Does "the medieval population of Europe was X" have an historical
        meaning? It was thought so when I was in school, but check:


        It's the growth/decline processes that have historical meanings, not
        some number for the entire period (or some sub period).

        And re tradition ...

        The understanding of the sawtooth aspect of historical population
        sizes is far from new, and indeed "traditional" :)

        2 Samuel 24:9 [KJV]: "And Joab gave up the sum of the number of the
        people unto the king: and there were in Israel eight hundred thousand
        valiant men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah were five
        hundred thousand men."

        2 Samuel 24:13 [KJV]: "... shall seven years of famine come unto thee
        in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies,
        while they pursue thee? or that there be three days' pestilence in
        thy land? ..."

        1.3 million "arm bearers" implies a general population of about 3-4
        million. Has "greater Canaan" a "carrying capacity" of 3-4 million
        people, given the 10th cbc material culture? My personal opinion is
        that it does, but that's beyond the scope of this message. However,
        wether the numbers are correct or not, this passage shows an
        understanding of the process and lists three of the most common
        causes for the decline part in the sawtooth (climate/environment, war
        and plague, with the 4th being emigration) with their associated
        (very steep) rates of decline.

        Personal note - what an amazing book. [And in case anyone wonders,
        I'm an atheist]

        >Furthermore, I do not care if the numbers can be corrected, as long
        >as the way they are calculated remains the same. We can also discuss
        >the way of calculating numbers. No problem.

        I don't understand the above.

        What I'm trying to say is that while "carrying capacity" is a
        meaningful number, representing the population during an historical
        period (more than 1-2 generations) by a single number is not.

        If I recall correctly, a population growth rate of below 1% per year
        (a number that includes everything - births, deaths, arrivals &
        departures) is considered to be temporary (leading either to a
        quicker rate or to a decline). In real-life conditions rates above 2%
        per year are considered "quick". So let's see what happens in this
        range for a large village of 1000 people during a century (rounding to tens).

        1% growth rate:

        25 years - 1280. 50 years - 1640. 75 years - 2110. 100 years - 2700.

        1.5% growth rate:

        25 years - 1450. 50 years - 2110. 75 years - 3050. 100 years - 4430.

        2% growth rate:

        25 years - 1640. 50 years - 2690. 75 years - 4420. 100 years - 7240.

        I.e. a difference of 1% in the growth rate results in a difference of
        almost 270% in the size of the population after 100 years. That
        difference grows to 720% after 200 years, 1920% after 300 years and so on.

        These numbers have historical implications. E.g. if the calculated
        carrying capacity is 2000 people, you know that whatever the growth
        rate was, there was an historical event, at least one, that dropped
        the population level during that period. If the calculated carrying
        capacity is 10000 but you have no archeological evidence of the
        village becoming a town, you again can infer an historical event. Etc.

        And while growth rates and carrying capacities are meaningful
        numbers, determining them for specific locations or areas, in
        specific time periods, is far from trivial. And as the example above
        shows, choosing the wrong growth rate to model some historical
        period, wrong by a fraction of a percent, can result in computed
        populations sizes that are very far from the historical ones.

        For example, we know that Pontius Pilate had water brought to
        Jerusalem from springs near Hebron. Was it because the carrying
        capacity of the local water resources was reached, or was it because
        of a lifestyle that increased the quantity of water needed per
        person? Can the volume of the local water resources be evaluated for
        that period? What is local in that respect? Herod could have had mule
        trains bring water from nearer springs, e.g. Ein Yahel, Ein Karem,
        Abu Gosh, etc. And if these can be answered - can a number
        representing a yearly volume of water be translated into a number of people?

        Why water? because I think that it's safe to assume that food was not
        a factor in determining the carrying capacity of Jerusalem during the
        Herod or Pontius Pilate reigns. Why this period (which is short
        enough for a population size to have meaning)? Because of all the
        estimates that floated around during the Talpiot Tomb fiasco. If an
        argument could be made that the water carrying capacity of Jerusalem
        was reached during Pontius Pilate's reign, and if that could lead to
        a "water volume into number of people" calculation, then maybe we'd
        have a figure with some reasonable likelihood.

        Population estimates are not my thing, though I was sidetracked into
        them at one time. So I'm off this topic. The moral for me was to
        ignore population sizes for historical periods as meaningless, and
        not to accept carrying capacity or growth rate figures without
        checking carefully how they were reached. YMMV.


        [100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto ergo sum!]

        Ariel L. Szczupak
        AMIS-JLM (Ricercar Ltd.)
        POB 4707, Jerusalem, Israel 91406
        Phone: +972-2-5619660 Fax: +972-2-5634203
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