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Re: [ANE-2] Re: Tiberias back to life + 'incendiary bombs'

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  • Joe Zias
    The contents of these so called hand grenades , bombs, were analyzed some yrs ago by Dr. Namaa Brosh Curator of Islamic Arch. at the Israel Museum. Joe
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 3, 2008
      The contents of these so called 'hand grenades', bombs, were analyzed some yrs ago by Dr. Namaa Brosh Curator of Islamic Arch. at the Israel Museum.

      Joe

      dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...> wrote: The article repeats Foerster's rather whimsical suggestion, made in
      preliminary reports, that a number of thick-walled containers,
      colloquially known as 'grenades' found in the eastern tower of the
      gate were 'incendiary bombs' used to defend the city. When I
      published a final report on FOerster's excavations (IAA REports 21) I
      expressed scepticism. The vessels were dated to the 9th century, by
      which time the tower was well inside the city which was rapidly
      expanding into all the area betwen it and Hammat Tiberias to the
      south, so the tower was no longer a strategic location. The vessels
      were found inside the tower, with no evidence that they had fallen
      from a collapsed roof, so would not have been handy for defense. They
      were, perhaps, more likely to have been connected in some way with
      the metal working carried on in a room adjoining the tower. Over the
      years many suggestions have been made for the use to which these
      containers may have been put, ranging from fire-bombs, mercury pots,
      beer gourds, and even, tongue in cheek, hash pipes. They are quite
      commonly found over a wide geographical area. Has any more conclusive
      evidence for their use been discovered since I researched the topic
      nearly two decades ago?

      David Stacey

      (--- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph I. Lauer" <josephlauer@...>
      wrote:
      >
      >
      > The IAA's English-language press release is still at the IAA's
      website
      > as is the Hebrew version of the release, along with a picture and
      some
      > drawings.
      > http://www.antiquities.org.il/article_Item_eng.asp?
      sec_id=25&subj_id=240&id=1366&module_id=#as
      > [English, with one picture and two drawings]
      > http://www.antiquities.org.il/article_Item_ido.asp?
      sec_id=25&subj_id=240&id=1365&module_id=#as
      > [Hebrew, with the same picture and a different drawing]
      > The picture and the drawings may also be separately viewed at
      the
      > following URLs
      > http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//netnet.panorama.gif
      >
      http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//net.TochnitPituachShaar
      omi.EngYaaraShaltiel.jpg
      > http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//Net.mabatMedrom-
      Maarav.Eng.YaaraShaltiel.jpg
      > http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//press/Net-
      mabatmedarom.Eng.YaaraShaltiel.jpg
      > Joseph I. Lauer
      > Brooklyn, New York
      >






      Joe Zias www.joezias.com
      Anthropology/Paleopathology

      Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
      Jerusalem, Israel



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Sam WOLFF
      A recent summmary and typology of grenades can be found in Miriam Avissar and Edna J. Stern, Pottery of the Crusader, Ayyubid, and Mamluk Periods in Israel
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 3, 2008
        A recent summmary and typology of 'grenades' can be found in Miriam Avissar and Edna J. Stern, Pottery of the Crusader, Ayyubid, and Mamluk Periods in Israel (IAA Reports 26), 2005, p. 119. They list four possible usages:
        1. Container for mercury (Beth Shan)
        2. As aeolipiles-fireblowers (Hildburgh 1951)
        3. As containers for intoxicating liquids ((Ghouchani and Adle 1992)
        4. As containers for material that could be used for striking fire (Brosh 1980).

        Sam Wolff
        IAA

        David Stacey asks:

        Has any more conclusive evidence for their use been discovered since I researched the topic nearly two decades ago?
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      • dastacey62
        - Any idea what were her conclusions? And were they published? David Stacey ... analyzed some yrs ago by Dr. Namaa Brosh Curator of Islamic Arch. at the Israel
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 3, 2008
          -
          Any idea what were her conclusions? And were they published?

          David Stacey

          -- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Joe Zias <joezias@...> wrote:
          >
          > The contents of these so called 'hand grenades', bombs, were
          analyzed some yrs ago by Dr. Namaa Brosh Curator of Islamic Arch. at
          the Israel Museum.
          >
          > Joe
          >
          > dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...> wrote:
          The article repeats Foerster's rather whimsical suggestion, made in
          > preliminary reports, that a number of thick-walled containers,
          > colloquially known as 'grenades' found in the eastern tower of the
          > gate were 'incendiary bombs' used to defend the city. When I
          > published a final report on FOerster's excavations (IAA REports
          21) I
          > expressed scepticism. The vessels were dated to the 9th century,
          by
          > which time the tower was well inside the city which was rapidly
          > expanding into all the area betwen it and Hammat Tiberias to the
          > south, so the tower was no longer a strategic location. The
          vessels
          > were found inside the tower, with no evidence that they had fallen
          > from a collapsed roof, so would not have been handy for defense.
          They
          > were, perhaps, more likely to have been connected in some way with
          > the metal working carried on in a room adjoining the tower. Over
          the
          > years many suggestions have been made for the use to which these
          > containers may have been put, ranging from fire-bombs, mercury
          pots,
          > beer gourds, and even, tongue in cheek, hash pipes. They are
          quite
          > commonly found over a wide geographical area. Has any more
          conclusive
          > evidence for their use been discovered since I researched the
          topic
          > nearly two decades ago?
          >
          > David Stacey
          >
          > (--- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph I. Lauer" <josephlauer@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > The IAA's English-language press release is still at the
          IAA's
          > website
          > > as is the Hebrew version of the release, along with a picture
          and
          > some
          > > drawings.
          > > http://www.antiquities.org.il/article_Item_eng.asp?
          > sec_id=25&subj_id=240&id=1366&module_id=#as
          > > [English, with one picture and two drawings]
          > > http://www.antiquities.org.il/article_Item_ido.asp?
          > sec_id=25&subj_id=240&id=1365&module_id=#as
          > > [Hebrew, with the same picture and a different drawing]
          > > The picture and the drawings may also be separately viewed
          at
          > the
          > > following URLs
          > >
          http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//netnet.panorama.gif
          > >
          >
          http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//net.TochnitPituachShaar
          > omi.EngYaaraShaltiel.jpg
          > > http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//Net.mabatMedrom-
          > Maarav.Eng.YaaraShaltiel.jpg
          > > http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//press/Net-
          > mabatmedarom.Eng.YaaraShaltiel.jpg
          > > Joseph I. Lauer
          > > Brooklyn, New York
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
          > Anthropology/Paleopathology
          >
          > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
          > Jerusalem, Israel
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Joe Zias
          If I remember correctly, they were not used to set fires and I remember someone stating that they tried hurling a few of these and the chances of them breaking
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 3, 2008
            If I remember correctly, they were not used to set fires and I remember someone stating that they tried hurling a few of these and the chances of them breaking were virtually nil as they are heavy and thick walled.

            dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...> wrote: -
            Any idea what were her conclusions? And were they published?

            David Stacey

            -- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Joe Zias <joezias@...> wrote:
            >
            > The contents of these so called 'hand grenades', bombs, were
            analyzed some yrs ago by Dr. Namaa Brosh Curator of Islamic Arch. at
            the Israel Museum.
            >
            > Joe
            >
            > dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...> wrote:
            The article repeats Foerster's rather whimsical suggestion, made in
            > preliminary reports, that a number of thick-walled containers,
            > colloquially known as 'grenades' found in the eastern tower of the
            > gate were 'incendiary bombs' used to defend the city. When I
            > published a final report on FOerster's excavations (IAA REports
            21) I
            > expressed scepticism. The vessels were dated to the 9th century,
            by
            > which time the tower was well inside the city which was rapidly
            > expanding into all the area betwen it and Hammat Tiberias to the
            > south, so the tower was no longer a strategic location. The
            vessels
            > were found inside the tower, with no evidence that they had fallen
            > from a collapsed roof, so would not have been handy for defense.
            They
            > were, perhaps, more likely to have been connected in some way with
            > the metal working carried on in a room adjoining the tower. Over
            the
            > years many suggestions have been made for the use to which these
            > containers may have been put, ranging from fire-bombs, mercury
            pots,
            > beer gourds, and even, tongue in cheek, hash pipes. They are
            quite
            > commonly found over a wide geographical area. Has any more
            conclusive
            > evidence for their use been discovered since I researched the
            topic
            > nearly two decades ago?
            >
            > David Stacey
            >
            > (--- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph I. Lauer" <josephlauer@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > The IAA's English-language press release is still at the
            IAA's
            > website
            > > as is the Hebrew version of the release, along with a picture
            and
            > some
            > > drawings.
            > > http://www.antiquities.org.il/article_Item_eng.asp?
            > sec_id=25&subj_id=240&id=1366&module_id=#as
            > > [English, with one picture and two drawings]
            > > http://www.antiquities.org.il/article_Item_ido.asp?
            > sec_id=25&subj_id=240&id=1365&module_id=#as
            > > [Hebrew, with the same picture and a different drawing]
            > > The picture and the drawings may also be separately viewed
            at
            > the
            > > following URLs
            > >
            http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//netnet.panorama.gif
            > >
            >
            http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//net.TochnitPituachShaar
            > omi.EngYaaraShaltiel.jpg
            > > http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//Net.mabatMedrom-
            > Maarav.Eng.YaaraShaltiel.jpg
            > > http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//press/Net-
            > mabatmedarom.Eng.YaaraShaltiel.jpg
            > > Joseph I. Lauer
            > > Brooklyn, New York
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
            > Anthropology/Paleopathology
            >
            > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
            > Jerusalem, Israel
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >






            Joe Zias www.joezias.com
            Anthropology/Paleopathology

            Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
            Jerusalem, Israel



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • dastacey62
            To which should be added Keall s 1993 article One Man s Mede ia Another Man s Persian; One Man s Coconut is Another Man s Grenade in Muqarnas 10 pp. 275-285.
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 3, 2008
              To which should be added Keall's 1993 article "One Man's Mede ia
              Another Man's Persian; One Man's Coconut is Another Man's Grenade" in
              Muqarnas 10 pp. 275-285.

              David Stacey


              -- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Sam WOLFF" <sam@...> wrote:
              >
              > A recent summmary and typology of 'grenades' can be found in Miriam
              Avissar and Edna J. Stern, Pottery of the Crusader, Ayyubid, and
              Mamluk Periods in Israel (IAA Reports 26), 2005, p. 119. They list
              four possible usages:
              > 1. Container for mercury (Beth Shan)
              > 2. As aeolipiles-fireblowers (Hildburgh 1951)
              > 3. As containers for intoxicating liquids ((Ghouchani and Adle 1992)
              > 4. As containers for material that could be used for striking fire
              (Brosh 1980).
              >
              > Sam Wolff
              > IAA
              >
              > David Stacey asks:
              >
              > Has any more conclusive evidence for their use been discovered
              since I researched the topic nearly two decades ago?
              >
              **********************************************************************
              ************************
              > IMPORTANT: The contents of this email and any attachments are
              confidential. They are intended for the
              > named recipient(s) only.
              > If you have received this email in error, please notify the system
              manager or the sender immediately and do
              > not disclose the contents to anyone or make copies thereof.
              > *** eSafe scanned this email for viruses, vandals, and malicious
              content. ***
              >
              **********************************************************************
              ************************
              > ----------
              >
              > Was scanned by Bezeq Security Services
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Paola Raffetta
              Dear All, ... Which can be downloaded from http://www.archnet.org/library/documents/one-document.jsp?document_id=3928 in PDF format. Paola Raffetta --
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 3, 2008
                Dear All,

                On Thu Apr 3, 2008 DAVID.STACEY wrote:

                > To which should be added Keall's 1993 article "One Man's Mede ia
                > Another Man's Persian; One Man's Coconut is Another Man's Grenade" in
                > Muqarnas 10 pp. 275-285.

                Which can be downloaded from
                http://www.archnet.org/library/documents/one-document.jsp?document_id=3928
                in PDF format.

                Paola Raffetta
                --
                http://www.paolaraffetta.com.ar
                estudios orientales - internet

                The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man
                persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. All progress,
                therefore, depends upon the unreasonable man. -- G. B. Shaw

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