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Re: Tiberias back to life

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  • Joseph I. Lauer
    The IAA s English-language press release is still at the IAA s website as is the Hebrew version of the release, along with a picture and some drawings.
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 2, 2008
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      The IAA's English-language press release is still at the IAA's website
      as is the Hebrew version of the release, along with a picture and some
      drawings.
      http://www.antiquities.org.il/article_Item_eng.asp?sec_id=25&subj_id=240&id=1366&module_id=#as
      [English, with one picture and two drawings]
      http://www.antiquities.org.il/article_Item_ido.asp?sec_id=25&subj_id=240&id=1365&module_id=#as
      [Hebrew, with the same picture and a different drawing]
      The picture and the drawings may also be separately viewed at the
      following URLs
      http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//netnet.panorama.gif
      http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//net.TochnitPituachShaaromi.EngYaaraShaltiel.jpg
      http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//Net.mabatMedrom-Maarav.Eng.YaaraShaltiel.jpg
      http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//press/Net-mabatmedarom.Eng.YaaraShaltiel.jpg
      Joseph I. Lauer
      Brooklyn, New York
    • dastacey62
      The article repeats Foerster s rather whimsical suggestion, made in preliminary reports, that a number of thick-walled containers, colloquially known as
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 3, 2008
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        The article repeats Foerster's rather whimsical suggestion, made in
        preliminary reports, that a number of thick-walled containers,
        colloquially known as 'grenades' found in the eastern tower of the
        gate were 'incendiary bombs' used to defend the city. When I
        published a final report on FOerster's excavations (IAA REports 21) I
        expressed scepticism. The vessels were dated to the 9th century, by
        which time the tower was well inside the city which was rapidly
        expanding into all the area betwen it and Hammat Tiberias to the
        south, so the tower was no longer a strategic location. The vessels
        were found inside the tower, with no evidence that they had fallen
        from a collapsed roof, so would not have been handy for defense. They
        were, perhaps, more likely to have been connected in some way with
        the metal working carried on in a room adjoining the tower. Over the
        years many suggestions have been made for the use to which these
        containers may have been put, ranging from fire-bombs, mercury pots,
        beer gourds, and even, tongue in cheek, hash pipes. They are quite
        commonly found over a wide geographical area. Has any more conclusive
        evidence for their use been discovered since I researched the topic
        nearly two decades ago?

        David Stacey

        (--- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph I. Lauer" <josephlauer@...>
        wrote:
        >
        >
        > The IAA's English-language press release is still at the IAA's
        website
        > as is the Hebrew version of the release, along with a picture and
        some
        > drawings.
        > http://www.antiquities.org.il/article_Item_eng.asp?
        sec_id=25&subj_id=240&id=1366&module_id=#as
        > [English, with one picture and two drawings]
        > http://www.antiquities.org.il/article_Item_ido.asp?
        sec_id=25&subj_id=240&id=1365&module_id=#as
        > [Hebrew, with the same picture and a different drawing]
        > The picture and the drawings may also be separately viewed at
        the
        > following URLs
        > http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//netnet.panorama.gif
        >
        http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//net.TochnitPituachShaar
        omi.EngYaaraShaltiel.jpg
        > http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//Net.mabatMedrom-
        Maarav.Eng.YaaraShaltiel.jpg
        > http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//press/Net-
        mabatmedarom.Eng.YaaraShaltiel.jpg
        > Joseph I. Lauer
        > Brooklyn, New York
        >
      • Joe Zias
        The contents of these so called hand grenades , bombs, were analyzed some yrs ago by Dr. Namaa Brosh Curator of Islamic Arch. at the Israel Museum. Joe
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 3, 2008
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          The contents of these so called 'hand grenades', bombs, were analyzed some yrs ago by Dr. Namaa Brosh Curator of Islamic Arch. at the Israel Museum.

          Joe

          dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...> wrote: The article repeats Foerster's rather whimsical suggestion, made in
          preliminary reports, that a number of thick-walled containers,
          colloquially known as 'grenades' found in the eastern tower of the
          gate were 'incendiary bombs' used to defend the city. When I
          published a final report on FOerster's excavations (IAA REports 21) I
          expressed scepticism. The vessels were dated to the 9th century, by
          which time the tower was well inside the city which was rapidly
          expanding into all the area betwen it and Hammat Tiberias to the
          south, so the tower was no longer a strategic location. The vessels
          were found inside the tower, with no evidence that they had fallen
          from a collapsed roof, so would not have been handy for defense. They
          were, perhaps, more likely to have been connected in some way with
          the metal working carried on in a room adjoining the tower. Over the
          years many suggestions have been made for the use to which these
          containers may have been put, ranging from fire-bombs, mercury pots,
          beer gourds, and even, tongue in cheek, hash pipes. They are quite
          commonly found over a wide geographical area. Has any more conclusive
          evidence for their use been discovered since I researched the topic
          nearly two decades ago?

          David Stacey

          (--- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph I. Lauer" <josephlauer@...>
          wrote:
          >
          >
          > The IAA's English-language press release is still at the IAA's
          website
          > as is the Hebrew version of the release, along with a picture and
          some
          > drawings.
          > http://www.antiquities.org.il/article_Item_eng.asp?
          sec_id=25&subj_id=240&id=1366&module_id=#as
          > [English, with one picture and two drawings]
          > http://www.antiquities.org.il/article_Item_ido.asp?
          sec_id=25&subj_id=240&id=1365&module_id=#as
          > [Hebrew, with the same picture and a different drawing]
          > The picture and the drawings may also be separately viewed at
          the
          > following URLs
          > http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//netnet.panorama.gif
          >
          http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//net.TochnitPituachShaar
          omi.EngYaaraShaltiel.jpg
          > http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//Net.mabatMedrom-
          Maarav.Eng.YaaraShaltiel.jpg
          > http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//press/Net-
          mabatmedarom.Eng.YaaraShaltiel.jpg
          > Joseph I. Lauer
          > Brooklyn, New York
          >






          Joe Zias www.joezias.com
          Anthropology/Paleopathology

          Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
          Jerusalem, Israel



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Sam WOLFF
          A recent summmary and typology of grenades can be found in Miriam Avissar and Edna J. Stern, Pottery of the Crusader, Ayyubid, and Mamluk Periods in Israel
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 3, 2008
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            A recent summmary and typology of 'grenades' can be found in Miriam Avissar and Edna J. Stern, Pottery of the Crusader, Ayyubid, and Mamluk Periods in Israel (IAA Reports 26), 2005, p. 119. They list four possible usages:
            1. Container for mercury (Beth Shan)
            2. As aeolipiles-fireblowers (Hildburgh 1951)
            3. As containers for intoxicating liquids ((Ghouchani and Adle 1992)
            4. As containers for material that could be used for striking fire (Brosh 1980).

            Sam Wolff
            IAA

            David Stacey asks:

            Has any more conclusive evidence for their use been discovered since I researched the topic nearly two decades ago?
            **********************************************************************************************
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          • dastacey62
            - Any idea what were her conclusions? And were they published? David Stacey ... analyzed some yrs ago by Dr. Namaa Brosh Curator of Islamic Arch. at the Israel
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 3, 2008
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              -
              Any idea what were her conclusions? And were they published?

              David Stacey

              -- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Joe Zias <joezias@...> wrote:
              >
              > The contents of these so called 'hand grenades', bombs, were
              analyzed some yrs ago by Dr. Namaa Brosh Curator of Islamic Arch. at
              the Israel Museum.
              >
              > Joe
              >
              > dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...> wrote:
              The article repeats Foerster's rather whimsical suggestion, made in
              > preliminary reports, that a number of thick-walled containers,
              > colloquially known as 'grenades' found in the eastern tower of the
              > gate were 'incendiary bombs' used to defend the city. When I
              > published a final report on FOerster's excavations (IAA REports
              21) I
              > expressed scepticism. The vessels were dated to the 9th century,
              by
              > which time the tower was well inside the city which was rapidly
              > expanding into all the area betwen it and Hammat Tiberias to the
              > south, so the tower was no longer a strategic location. The
              vessels
              > were found inside the tower, with no evidence that they had fallen
              > from a collapsed roof, so would not have been handy for defense.
              They
              > were, perhaps, more likely to have been connected in some way with
              > the metal working carried on in a room adjoining the tower. Over
              the
              > years many suggestions have been made for the use to which these
              > containers may have been put, ranging from fire-bombs, mercury
              pots,
              > beer gourds, and even, tongue in cheek, hash pipes. They are
              quite
              > commonly found over a wide geographical area. Has any more
              conclusive
              > evidence for their use been discovered since I researched the
              topic
              > nearly two decades ago?
              >
              > David Stacey
              >
              > (--- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph I. Lauer" <josephlauer@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > The IAA's English-language press release is still at the
              IAA's
              > website
              > > as is the Hebrew version of the release, along with a picture
              and
              > some
              > > drawings.
              > > http://www.antiquities.org.il/article_Item_eng.asp?
              > sec_id=25&subj_id=240&id=1366&module_id=#as
              > > [English, with one picture and two drawings]
              > > http://www.antiquities.org.il/article_Item_ido.asp?
              > sec_id=25&subj_id=240&id=1365&module_id=#as
              > > [Hebrew, with the same picture and a different drawing]
              > > The picture and the drawings may also be separately viewed
              at
              > the
              > > following URLs
              > >
              http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//netnet.panorama.gif
              > >
              >
              http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//net.TochnitPituachShaar
              > omi.EngYaaraShaltiel.jpg
              > > http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//Net.mabatMedrom-
              > Maarav.Eng.YaaraShaltiel.jpg
              > > http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//press/Net-
              > mabatmedarom.Eng.YaaraShaltiel.jpg
              > > Joseph I. Lauer
              > > Brooklyn, New York
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
              > Anthropology/Paleopathology
              >
              > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
              > Jerusalem, Israel
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Joe Zias
              If I remember correctly, they were not used to set fires and I remember someone stating that they tried hurling a few of these and the chances of them breaking
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 3, 2008
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                If I remember correctly, they were not used to set fires and I remember someone stating that they tried hurling a few of these and the chances of them breaking were virtually nil as they are heavy and thick walled.

                dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...> wrote: -
                Any idea what were her conclusions? And were they published?

                David Stacey

                -- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Joe Zias <joezias@...> wrote:
                >
                > The contents of these so called 'hand grenades', bombs, were
                analyzed some yrs ago by Dr. Namaa Brosh Curator of Islamic Arch. at
                the Israel Museum.
                >
                > Joe
                >
                > dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...> wrote:
                The article repeats Foerster's rather whimsical suggestion, made in
                > preliminary reports, that a number of thick-walled containers,
                > colloquially known as 'grenades' found in the eastern tower of the
                > gate were 'incendiary bombs' used to defend the city. When I
                > published a final report on FOerster's excavations (IAA REports
                21) I
                > expressed scepticism. The vessels were dated to the 9th century,
                by
                > which time the tower was well inside the city which was rapidly
                > expanding into all the area betwen it and Hammat Tiberias to the
                > south, so the tower was no longer a strategic location. The
                vessels
                > were found inside the tower, with no evidence that they had fallen
                > from a collapsed roof, so would not have been handy for defense.
                They
                > were, perhaps, more likely to have been connected in some way with
                > the metal working carried on in a room adjoining the tower. Over
                the
                > years many suggestions have been made for the use to which these
                > containers may have been put, ranging from fire-bombs, mercury
                pots,
                > beer gourds, and even, tongue in cheek, hash pipes. They are
                quite
                > commonly found over a wide geographical area. Has any more
                conclusive
                > evidence for their use been discovered since I researched the
                topic
                > nearly two decades ago?
                >
                > David Stacey
                >
                > (--- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph I. Lauer" <josephlauer@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > The IAA's English-language press release is still at the
                IAA's
                > website
                > > as is the Hebrew version of the release, along with a picture
                and
                > some
                > > drawings.
                > > http://www.antiquities.org.il/article_Item_eng.asp?
                > sec_id=25&subj_id=240&id=1366&module_id=#as
                > > [English, with one picture and two drawings]
                > > http://www.antiquities.org.il/article_Item_ido.asp?
                > sec_id=25&subj_id=240&id=1365&module_id=#as
                > > [Hebrew, with the same picture and a different drawing]
                > > The picture and the drawings may also be separately viewed
                at
                > the
                > > following URLs
                > >
                http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//netnet.panorama.gif
                > >
                >
                http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//net.TochnitPituachShaar
                > omi.EngYaaraShaltiel.jpg
                > > http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//Net.mabatMedrom-
                > Maarav.Eng.YaaraShaltiel.jpg
                > > http://www.antiquities.org.il/images/articles//press/Net-
                > mabatmedarom.Eng.YaaraShaltiel.jpg
                > > Joseph I. Lauer
                > > Brooklyn, New York
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                > Anthropology/Paleopathology
                >
                > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                > Jerusalem, Israel
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >






                Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                Anthropology/Paleopathology

                Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                Jerusalem, Israel



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • dastacey62
                To which should be added Keall s 1993 article One Man s Mede ia Another Man s Persian; One Man s Coconut is Another Man s Grenade in Muqarnas 10 pp. 275-285.
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 3, 2008
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                  To which should be added Keall's 1993 article "One Man's Mede ia
                  Another Man's Persian; One Man's Coconut is Another Man's Grenade" in
                  Muqarnas 10 pp. 275-285.

                  David Stacey


                  -- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Sam WOLFF" <sam@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > A recent summmary and typology of 'grenades' can be found in Miriam
                  Avissar and Edna J. Stern, Pottery of the Crusader, Ayyubid, and
                  Mamluk Periods in Israel (IAA Reports 26), 2005, p. 119. They list
                  four possible usages:
                  > 1. Container for mercury (Beth Shan)
                  > 2. As aeolipiles-fireblowers (Hildburgh 1951)
                  > 3. As containers for intoxicating liquids ((Ghouchani and Adle 1992)
                  > 4. As containers for material that could be used for striking fire
                  (Brosh 1980).
                  >
                  > Sam Wolff
                  > IAA
                  >
                  > David Stacey asks:
                  >
                  > Has any more conclusive evidence for their use been discovered
                  since I researched the topic nearly two decades ago?
                  >
                  **********************************************************************
                  ************************
                  > IMPORTANT: The contents of this email and any attachments are
                  confidential. They are intended for the
                  > named recipient(s) only.
                  > If you have received this email in error, please notify the system
                  manager or the sender immediately and do
                  > not disclose the contents to anyone or make copies thereof.
                  > *** eSafe scanned this email for viruses, vandals, and malicious
                  content. ***
                  >
                  **********************************************************************
                  ************************
                  > ----------
                  >
                  > Was scanned by Bezeq Security Services
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Paola Raffetta
                  Dear All, ... Which can be downloaded from http://www.archnet.org/library/documents/one-document.jsp?document_id=3928 in PDF format. Paola Raffetta --
                  Message 8 of 9 , Apr 3, 2008
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                    Dear All,

                    On Thu Apr 3, 2008 DAVID.STACEY wrote:

                    > To which should be added Keall's 1993 article "One Man's Mede ia
                    > Another Man's Persian; One Man's Coconut is Another Man's Grenade" in
                    > Muqarnas 10 pp. 275-285.

                    Which can be downloaded from
                    http://www.archnet.org/library/documents/one-document.jsp?document_id=3928
                    in PDF format.

                    Paola Raffetta
                    --
                    http://www.paolaraffetta.com.ar
                    estudios orientales - internet

                    The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man
                    persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. All progress,
                    therefore, depends upon the unreasonable man. -- G. B. Shaw

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