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A new Neo-babylonian site.. crucifixion

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  • Clark Whelton
    ... I would like to inform you kindly that Iraqi News Agency Voices of Iraq published today information entitled Ancient (Neo) Babylonian city unearthed in
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 19, 2008
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      >>>>Baghdad, 18 March 2008
      I would like to inform you kindly that Iraqi News Agency Voices of
      Iraq published today information entitled "Ancient (Neo) Babylonian city
      unearthed in Diwaniya".
      One can reach it at:
      http://www.aswataliraq.info/look/english/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=4&NrArticle=73290&NrIssue=2&NrSection=10
      Miros³aw Olbry¶


      From the above news story...

      "... (Provincial museum curator) Muhammad Yahya Radi said that also the
      remains of four persons laid in pottery vessels were found, noting those
      four were apparently executed.
      "We found out about that because one of the bodies had its half
      buried in a wall and the other in a funerary urn. The other three
      bodies had iron nails driven into their hands, legs and necks, which
      indicates that
      there were strict laws used to be applied in that city," he indicated...



      It would appear that three persons found in the pottery vessels were
      crucified. According to Herodotus, crucifixion was originated by the
      Persians. Are there examples of crucifixion in Babylon from Neo-Babylonian
      times? In his Behistun inscription, Darius I mentions the Arakha rebellion
      in Babylon, and the subsequent crucifixion of the rebel leaders. Is it
      possible the above site excavated at Diwaniya belongs to the Persian period?


      Clark Whelton
      New York
    • Antonio Lombatti
      ... Well, the findings are very interesting indeed, even if it s difficult to check those Iraqi sources and get reports along with photos. If the article is
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 19, 2008
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        Il giorno 19/mar/08, alle ore 17:09, Clark Whelton ha scritto:

        > It would appear that three persons found in the pottery vessels were
        > crucified. According to Herodotus, crucifixion was originated by the
        > Persians.
        >



        Well, the findings are very interesting indeed, even if it's difficult
        to check those Iraqi sources and get reports along with photos. If the
        article is correct, the discovery is amazing, since only the remains
        of a crucified individual ever found were those of Yehohanan.

        Crucifixion in antiquity it's quite controversial. Everyone knows it
        existed, but it's not easy to say how people were put to death.
        There's a lack of iconographic sources and texts are silent on
        details. The main difficulty seems to be the use of the verbs:
        condemned by were affixed, infixed, impaled, and tied (or nailed) to a
        tree, stake or "stipes". It is believed that the Code of Hammurabi 153
        may refer to crucifixion.

        About the means of suspending the victims it was probably done in two
        forms: infixion, viz, impaling with pointed stakes three zones of the
        body (anal, ventral, jugular) and lifting them up; affixion by means
        of which the upper and lower limbs were tied with ropes, iron rings or
        nails to planks. The condemned was probably tortures before and on the
        stake.

        I think that J. Fitzmyer (CBQ, 40, 1978) was right in understanding
        the Deut. "TLH" as a verb used to describe crucifixion. He also
        mantained that 11QT and 4QpNah were also speaking about crucified
        people.

        According to Herodotus 1:128.2; 3:125.3; 3:132.2; 3:159.1 crucifixion
        was invented by the Persians (on Darius 4:43.2,7; 6:30.1; 7:194.1)

        Alexander the Great was blamed for having used crucifixion according
        to the Persian model, as reported by Arrian (Anabasis IV, 7; see also
        Curtius Rufus 4:4.17)

        The nail in the neck will be a new and previously unknown
        archaeological detail. Then, I'd like to understand if the "nails in
        the legs" in the article was meant to say "nails in the anckles or
        tibia".

        Does anyone on the list know how to contact the archaeologists working
        there?

        Antonio Lombatti


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        http://www.antoniolombatti.it








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      • Lampros F. Kallenos
        I remember reading something many years ago, dated ever earlier, perhaps from the 1950 s or 1960 s, and reffering to some findings in Athena. Those were
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 19, 2008
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          I remember reading something many years ago, dated ever
          earlier, perhaps from the 1950's or 1960's, and
          reffering to some findings in Athena.

          Those were thought to be convicts, that were executed
          by being nailed on a flat wooden board. Then the board
          was put upright and they were left to die --or, were
          they left to the animals?

          "Nailed on the board" means that each leg and wrist was
          secured to the board with a nail in the shape of the
          capital Latin letter U. This nail was not driven
          through the leg or hand, but was rather used to
          immobilize it, with the leg or hand passing through. A
          fifth similar nail was used to immobilize the neck on
          the board.

          The archaeologists went so far as to claim that the
          modern Greek gesture of showing to an opponent (say, in
          a fight) an open palm with stretched fingers has its
          origin in this ancient method of execution, as if
          telling the opponent "may you take five [nails]".

          After execution, the boards, with the victims still
          nailed on them, were put in a grave one on top of the
          other.

          Concerning these findings from Iraq, could this nail
          "through the neck" really be a faulty translation?


          _______________________
          Lampros F. Kallenos
          Idalion, Lefkosia
          Kypros
          --
        • Lampros F. Kallenos
          I should have added that, as I recall, these findings from Athena were dated in the 5th or 4th ce. BCE. _______________________ Lampros F. Kallenos Idalion,
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 19, 2008
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            I should have added that, as I recall, these findings
            from Athena were dated in the 5th or 4th ce. BCE.


            _______________________
            Lampros F. Kallenos
            Idalion, Lefkosia
            Kypros
            --
          • Antonio Lombatti
            ... Do you have any bibliographical reference for those findings? I ve never found them quoted in books or articles on crucifixion. Antonio Lombatti ...
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 19, 2008
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              Il giorno 19/mar/08, alle ore 22:43, Lampros F. Kallenos ha scritto:

              > I should have added that, as I recall, these findings
              > from Athena were dated in the 5th or 4th ce. BCE.


              Do you have any bibliographical reference for those findings? I've
              never found them quoted in books or articles on crucifixion.


              Antonio Lombatti

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              http://www.antoniolombatti.it








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            • Lampros F. Kallenos
              ... I will look tomorrow for the book, at the Public Library in Lefkosia. _______________________ Lampros F. Kallenos Idalion, Lefkosia Kypros --
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 19, 2008
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                > bibliographical reference

                I will look tomorrow for the book, at the Public
                Library in Lefkosia.


                _______________________
                Lampros F. Kallenos
                Idalion, Lefkosia
                Kypros
                --
              • Lampros F. Kallenos
                Dear Prof. Lombatti, Please sympathise my delay to come back with this. As you are hopefully still remember, in a message with the same title, dated since 19
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 24, 2008
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                  Dear Prof. Lombatti,

                  Please sympathise my delay to come back with this.

                  As you are hopefully still remember, in a message with
                  the same title, dated since 19 March 08, I described a
                  discovery somewhere in Athena, where some humans
                  remains were found nailed on wooden boards with U-
                  shaped nails.

                  On Thursday I went to the Public Library here in
                  Lefkosia, trying to find again the book with the above
                  reference. Unfortunately, with the description I was
                  giving nothing could be found. Besides my partial
                  memory, situation was becoming more difficult
                  because..., well, there are plans for relocating the
                  library in another building, and so many books are now
                  in boxes.

                  Now, my best plan is to take this question to
                  Greek-Arch, a list speacially devoted to Greek
                  archaeology. Let's hope that God of Greece will be
                  favorable to us.

                  _______________________
                  Lampros F. Kallenos
                  Idalion, Lefkosia
                  Kypros
                  --
                • Lampros F. Kallenos
                  Dear Prof. Lombatti, As you may still remember, in a discussion here, dated since 19 March, I mentioned some findings from Athina, that seemed to be victims of
                  Message 8 of 10 , Apr 4, 2008
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                    Dear Prof. Lombatti,

                    As you may still remember, in a discussion here, dated
                    since 19 March, I mentioned some findings from Athina,
                    that seemed to be victims of a kind of crucifixion.

                    I asked for some help to my weak memory from greek-arch
                    list, and indeed I had two responses.

                    Bioarchaeologist and paleopathologist Anastasia Tsaliki
                    says these should be victims of what is known as
                    <gr.>apotympanismos</gr.>, and they were found in
                    Faliron, Athina. She added that currently, Prof. Lilian
                    Karali (Dept. of Archaeology, University of Athens) and
                    herself, in collaboration with the National
                    Archaeological Museum (Athens), are re-examining the
                    surviving skeletons. They will publish a preliminarily
                    report soon and will make related announcements in
                    scientific conferences.


                    Biological - Funerary Archaeology & Palaeopathology

                    Web Projects:
                    http://www.paleopathology.org/links.html
                    http://www.bioarchaeology.ning.com
                    http://www.environmentalarchaeology.wordpress.com


                    Another response says that there are a few mentions
                    of nailing to people on planks in this article

                    Kyle M. Phillips, Jr., Perseus and Andromeda,
                    AJA, 72. 1 (Jan., 1968), pp. 1-23

                    which may have further references.


                    _______________________
                    Lampros F. Kallenos
                    Idalion, Lefkosia
                    Kypros
                    --
                  • Antonio Lombatti
                    ... Thanks. I m looking forward to read that forthcoming paper. Best, Antonio Lombatti ... http://www.antoniolombatti.it [Non-text portions of this message
                    Message 9 of 10 , Apr 4, 2008
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                      Il giorno 04/apr/08, alle ore 09:09, Lampros F. Kallenos ha scritto:

                      > I asked for some help to my weak memory from greek-arch
                      > list, and indeed I had two responses.


                      Thanks. I'm looking forward to read that forthcoming paper.

                      Best,
                      Antonio Lombatti


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                      http://www.antoniolombatti.it








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                    • Antonio Lombatti
                      I d like to have some information on the ancient length system used in the Roman Palestine until the Bar Kokhba Revolt. Did Jews use cubits as units? How
                      Message 10 of 10 , Apr 6, 2008
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                        I'd like to have some information on the ancient length system used in
                        the Roman Palestine until the Bar Kokhba Revolt. Did Jews use "cubits"
                        as units? How about their daily use?

                        Powell wrote that the cubit best estimate could have been 50 cm and it
                        was measured from the elbow to the tip of the extended middle finger
                        (Marvin A. Powell, 1992. �Weights and Measures,� The Anchor Bible
                        Dictionary, 6:897-908.)

                        Selected bibliography is also welcomed.

                        Thanks to all in advance.

                        Antonio Lombatti

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