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Re: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal

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  • Peter van der Veen
    Dear Itzhaq, I just had a chat with Eilat Mazar and can now understand why she suggests the reading tmh . As words can be read mirrorwise during the Persian
    Message 1 of 19 , Jan 17, 2008
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      Dear Itzhaq,

      I just had a chat with Eilat Mazar and can now understand why she suggests the reading 'tmh'. As words can be read mirrorwise during the Persian period (this is often also the case with the famous YHD stamps) she reads the seal from right to left (normally the inscriptions go from left to right as the seal is always incised mirrorwise in order to get the 'right to left' impression on the bulla). I told her about my reading and she found that it was interesting, but as she had little time she could not check it now. Indeed more work must be done and careful comparison with other seals is an absolute prerequisite. She felt that reading a 'shin' would be somewhat problematic as the incised letter on the seal depicts two 'V's written slightly across each other. But I believe that this is not a problem at all. For this type has good parallels in the late Iron Age and Persian periods. (parallels can be found in N. Avigad and Benny Sass' Corpus of West Semitic Stamp Seals e.g. WSS 805, 1071).

      Reading a 'het' here also requests that the letter had two vertical strokes on the left, which is very unusual. The only problem with my reading is that the 'lamed' would have been executed merely as a vertical long stroke without a horizontal side bar. This may be due to the carelessness of the engraver, but needs to be observed and parallels for this need to be found.

      Hence two readings stand at the moment:

      'tmh' (i.e. reading the 'wrong' way round) as per Eilat Mazar,
      'sh-l-m-t' (i.e. reading the 'right' way round) as per my suggestion,

      Best wishes

      Peter van der Veen PhD
      -------- Original-Nachricht --------
      > Datum: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 13:12:07 +0100
      > Von: "Peter van der Veen" <van_der_Veen@...>
      > An: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      > Betreff: Re: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal

      > Dear Yitzhaq,
      >
      > I looked at the picture of the seal very carefully. Indeed the iconography
      > with the two flanking worshippers at the altar does suggest a date
      > somewhere in the 6th or 5th cent. BC. The name however does not seem to read
      > 'temech' at all. I do not understand how such a reading came about. I suggest
      > reading 'Schelomit' (sh-l-m-t) and already have had confirmations from
      > colleagues with whom I shared the find this morning.
      >
      > best wishes
      > Peter van der Veen PhD
      >
      > -------- Original-Nachricht --------
      > > Datum: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:05:43 +0200
      > > Von: "Yitzhak Sapir" <yitzhaksapir@...>
      > > An: biblical-studies@yahoogroups.com, canaanite@yahoogroups.com,
      > ane-2@yahoogroups.com
      > > Betreff: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal
      >
      > > According to the Jerusalem Post, pointed out by Joseph Lauer and a
      > reader
      > > on Jim West's blog, Eilat Mazar found another seal during excavations:
      > >
      > >
      > http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1200475897717&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
      > >
      > > The seal reads "tmx" (TamaH) and Mazar dates it to 538-445 BCE. It
      > > includes
      > > an image of two priests sacrificing to the moon god Sin. A photo of
      > > the seal is
      > > included in the above link.
      > >
      > > Yitzhak Sapir
    • George F Somsel
      I presume that you are reading L - R rather than R - L. george gfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the
      Message 2 of 19 , Jan 17, 2008
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        I presume that you are reading L -> R rather than R -> L.


        george
        gfsomsel

        � search for truth, hear truth,
        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
        defend the truth till death.

        - Jan Hus
        _________



        ----- Original Message ----
        From: Peter van der Veen <van_der_Veen@...>
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 7:12:07 AM
        Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal

        Dear Yitzhaq,

        I looked at the picture of the seal very carefully. Indeed the iconography with the two flanking worshippers at the altar does suggest a date somewhere in the 6th or 5th cent. BC. The name however does not seem to read 'temech' at all. I do not understand how such a reading came about. I suggest reading 'Schelomit' (sh-l-m-t) and already have had confirmations from colleagues with whom I shared the find this morning.

        best wishes
        Peter van der Veen PhD

        -------- Original-Nachricht --------
        > Datum: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:05:43 +0200
        > Von: "Yitzhak Sapir" <yitzhaksapir@ gmail.com>
        > An: biblical-studies@ yahoogroups. com, canaanite@yahoogrou ps.com, ane-2@yahoogroups. com
        > Betreff: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal

        > According to the Jerusalem Post, pointed out by Joseph Lauer and a reader
        > on Jim West's blog, Eilat Mazar found another seal during excavations:
        >
        > http://www.jpost com/servlet/ Satellite? cid=120047589771 7&pagename= JPost%2FJPArticl e%2FShowFull
        >
        > The seal reads "tmx" (TamaH) and Mazar dates it to 538-445 BCE. It
        > includes
        > an image of two priests sacrificing to the moon god Sin. A photo of
        > the seal is
        > included in the above link.
        >
        > Yitzhak Sapir.



        ____________________________________________________________________________________
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • George F Somsel
        Ah! It just occured to me. In a seal it would be carved so as to reproduce in the the opposite direction. My error. george gfsomsel … search for truth,
        Message 3 of 19 , Jan 17, 2008
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          Ah! It just occured to me. In a seal it would be carved so as to reproduce in the the opposite direction. My error.

          george
          gfsomsel

          � search for truth, hear truth,
          learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
          defend the truth till death.

          - Jan Hus
          _________



          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Peter van der Veen <van_der_Veen@...>
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 7:12:07 AM
          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal

          Dear Yitzhaq,

          I looked at the picture of the seal very carefully. Indeed the iconography with the two flanking worshippers at the altar does suggest a date somewhere in the 6th or 5th cent. BC. The name however does not seem to read 'temech' at all. I do not understand how such a reading came about. I suggest reading 'Schelomit' (sh-l-m-t) and already have had confirmations from colleagues with whom I shared the find this morning.

          best wishes
          Peter van der Veen PhD

          -------- Original-Nachricht --------
          > Datum: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:05:43 +0200
          > Von: "Yitzhak Sapir" <yitzhaksapir@ gmail.com>
          > An: biblical-studies@ yahoogroups. com, canaanite@yahoogrou ps.com, ane-2@yahoogroups. com
          > Betreff: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal

          > According to the Jerusalem Post, pointed out by Joseph Lauer and a reader
          > on Jim West's blog, Eilat Mazar found another seal during excavations:
          >
          > http://www.jpost com/servlet/ Satellite? cid=120047589771 7&pagename= JPost%2FJPArticl e%2FShowFull
          >
          > The seal reads "tmx" (TamaH) and Mazar dates it to 538-445 BCE. It
          > includes
          > an image of two priests sacrificing to the moon god Sin. A photo of
          > the seal is
          > included in the above link.
          >
          > Yitzhak Sapir.



          ____________________________________________________________________________________
          Be a better friend, newshound, and
          know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Trudy Kawami
          It is instructive how the rush to press produced a mis-identification of the patron god of Babylon, Marduk not Sin. Alas there is nothing in the imagery of the
          Message 4 of 19 , Jan 17, 2008
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            It is instructive how the rush to press produced a mis-identification of
            the patron god of Babylon, Marduk not Sin. Alas there is nothing in the
            imagery of the seal to link it with Babylon itself, just to the
            Neo-Babylonian period.

            Trudy Kawami



            ________________________________

            From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            Yitzhak Sapir
            Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 7:06 AM
            To: biblical-studies@yahoogroups.com; canaanite@yahoogroups.com;
            ane-2@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal



            According to the Jerusalem Post, pointed out by Joseph Lauer and a
            reader
            on Jim West's blog, Eilat Mazar found another seal during excavations:

            http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1200475897717&pagename=JPost%
            2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
            <http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1200475897717&pagename=JPost
            %2FJPArticle%2FShowFull>

            The seal reads "tmx" (TamaH) and Mazar dates it to 538-445 BCE. It
            includes
            an image of two priests sacrificing to the moon god Sin. A photo of
            the seal is
            included in the above link.

            Yitzhak Sapir





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jack Kilmon
            As I suggested to Jim West on his excellent site a little while ago, I do not see TMX but in comparing the script to earlier seal and ostraca scripts as well
            Message 5 of 19 , Jan 17, 2008
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              As I suggested to Jim West on his excellent site a little while ago, I do
              not see "TMX" but in comparing the script to earlier seal and ostraca
              scripts as well as earlier scripts (the seal is older than the site) I see
              taw-mem-waw-(awl slip)-early zayin and I believe Inanna is mourning or
              worshipping Tammuz.

              Jack Kilmon
              San Antonio, Texas


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Trudy Kawami" <tkawami@...>
              To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:54 AM
              Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal


              > It is instructive how the rush to press produced a mis-identification of
              > the patron god of Babylon, Marduk not Sin. Alas there is nothing in the
              > imagery of the seal to link it with Babylon itself, just to the
              > Neo-Babylonian period.
              >
              > Trudy Kawami
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              >
              > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              > Yitzhak Sapir
              > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 7:06 AM
              > To: biblical-studies@yahoogroups.com; canaanite@yahoogroups.com;
              > ane-2@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal
              >
              >
              >
              > According to the Jerusalem Post, pointed out by Joseph Lauer and a
              > reader
              > on Jim West's blog, Eilat Mazar found another seal during excavations:
              >
              > http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1200475897717&pagename=JPost%
              > 2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
              > <http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1200475897717&pagename=JPost
              > %2FJPArticle%2FShowFull>
              >
              > The seal reads "tmx" (TamaH) and Mazar dates it to 538-445 BCE. It
              > includes
              > an image of two priests sacrificing to the moon god Sin. A photo of
              > the seal is
              > included in the above link.
              >
              > Yitzhak Sapir
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Trudy Kawami
              It is unlikely that the seal shows Inanna mourning or worshipping Tammuz(Dummuzi) as these Sumerian deities were not worshipped in the first millennium BCE. As
              Message 6 of 19 , Jan 17, 2008
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                It is unlikely that the seal shows Inanna mourning or worshipping
                Tammuz(Dummuzi) as these Sumerian deities were not worshipped in the
                first millennium BCE. As far as I am aware, there is no visual tradition
                of such a scene even in the third millennium BCE.

                Trudy Kawami



                ________________________________

                From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                Jack Kilmon
                Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 12:56 PM
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal



                As I suggested to Jim West on his excellent site a little while ago, I
                do
                not see "TMX" but in comparing the script to earlier seal and ostraca
                scripts as well as earlier scripts (the seal is older than the site) I
                see
                taw-mem-waw-(awl slip)-early zayin and I believe Inanna is mourning or
                worshipping Tammuz.

                Jack Kilmon
                San Antonio, Texas

                _._,___



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Joan Griffith
                Could this seal be interpreted as Jewish priests burning incense at the time of the new moon? Joan Griffith
                Message 7 of 19 , Jan 17, 2008
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                  Could this seal be interpreted as Jewish priests burning incense at the time
                  of the new moon?

                  Joan Griffith

                  On Jan 17, 2008 2:20 PM, Trudy Kawami <tkawami@...> wrote:

                  > It is unlikely that the seal shows Inanna mourning or worshipping
                  > Tammuz(Dummuzi) as these Sumerian deities were not worshipped in the
                  > first millennium BCE. As far as I am aware, there is no visual tradition
                  > of such a scene even in the third millennium BCE.
                  >
                  > Trudy Kawami
                  >
                • Robert M Whiting
                  The cult of Tammuz was alive and well in first millennium Israel. Cf. Ezek. 8:14. However, I agree that it is unlikely that the iconography of this seal
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jan 17, 2008
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                    The cult of Tammuz was alive and well in first millennium Israel. Cf.
                    Ezek. 8:14.

                    However, I agree that it is unlikely that the iconography of this seal
                    represents such a scene, just not for the reason given.

                    Bob Whiting
                    whiting@...

                    On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, Trudy Kawami wrote:

                    > It is unlikely that the seal shows Inanna mourning or worshipping
                    > Tammuz(Dummuzi) as these Sumerian deities were not worshipped in the
                    > first millennium BCE. As far as I am aware, there is no visual tradition
                    > of such a scene even in the third millennium BCE.
                    >
                    > Trudy Kawami
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    >
                    > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    > Jack Kilmon
                    > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 12:56 PM
                    > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > As I suggested to Jim West on his excellent site a little while ago, I
                    > do
                    > not see "TMX" but in comparing the script to earlier seal and ostraca
                    > scripts as well as earlier scripts (the seal is older than the site) I
                    > see
                    > taw-mem-waw-(awl slip)-early zayin and I believe Inanna is mourning or
                    > worshipping Tammuz.
                    >
                    > Jack Kilmon
                    > San Antonio, Texas
                    >
                    > _._,___
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Kevin P. Edgecomb
                    It appears to me to be the seal of the owner of the $almāta pizzeria located in the lower east side of the city. Notice the two cooks spinning the dough!
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jan 17, 2008
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                      It appears to me to be the seal of the owner of the $almāta pizzeria located in the lower east side of the city. Notice the two cooks spinning the dough!

                      Regards,
                      Kevin P. Edgecomb
                      Berkeley, California


                      ---- <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                      >
                      > The cult of Tammuz was alive and well in first millennium Israel. Cf.
                      > Ezek. 8:14.
                      >
                      > However, I agree that it is unlikely that the iconography of this seal
                      > represents such a scene, just not for the reason given.
                    • George F Somsel
                      Booooo … george gfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death. - Jan Hus
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jan 17, 2008
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                        Booooo �

                        george
                        gfsomsel

                        � search for truth, hear truth,
                        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                        defend the truth till death.

                        - Jan Hus
                        _________



                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: Kevin P. Edgecomb <kevin@...>
                        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 5:04:39 PM
                        Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal

                        It appears to me to be the seal of the owner of the $alm�ta pizzeria located in the lower east side of the city. Notice the two cooks spinning the dough!

                        Regards,
                        Kevin P. Edgecomb
                        Berkeley, California

                        ---- <ANE-2@yahoogroups. com> wrote:
                        >
                        > The cult of Tammuz was alive and well in first millennium Israel. Cf.
                        > Ezek. 8:14.
                        >
                        > However, I agree that it is unlikely that the iconography of this seal
                        > represents such a scene, just not for the reason given.




                        ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                      • Jack Kilmon
                        I am aware of the paucity of exemplar iconographic material from Iron IIc Jerusalem but was focussing primarily on the inscription which does look to me like
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jan 17, 2008
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                          I am aware of the paucity of exemplar iconographic material from Iron IIc
                          Jerusalem but was focussing primarily on the inscription which does look to
                          me like it could be Tammuz. Inanna and Tammuz' sister are depicted in
                          earlier art as mourning together. The script reminds me of a cross between
                          an Elephantine and Hebrew Seal and my first blush for the final letter was a
                          nun but I have seen early zayins "on their sides" before. Of course, there
                          is nothing like a careless ancient scribe to make our imaginations go wild.

                          Jack Kilmon
                          San Antonio, Texas

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Robert M Whiting" <whiting@...>
                          To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 3:56 PM
                          Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal


                          > The cult of Tammuz was alive and well in first millennium Israel. Cf.
                          > Ezek. 8:14.
                          >
                          > However, I agree that it is unlikely that the iconography of this seal
                          > represents such a scene, just not for the reason given.
                          >
                          > Bob Whiting
                          > whiting@...
                          >
                          > On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, Trudy Kawami wrote:
                          >
                          >> It is unlikely that the seal shows Inanna mourning or worshipping
                          >> Tammuz(Dummuzi) as these Sumerian deities were not worshipped in the
                          >> first millennium BCE. As far as I am aware, there is no visual tradition
                          >> of such a scene even in the third millennium BCE.

                          >>
                          >> Trudy Kawami
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> ________________________________
                          >>
                          >> From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                          >> Jack Kilmon
                          >> Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 12:56 PM
                          >> To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          >> Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> As I suggested to Jim West on his excellent site a little while ago, I
                          >> do
                          >> not see "TMX" but in comparing the script to earlier seal and ostraca
                          >> scripts as well as earlier scripts (the seal is older than the site) I
                          >> see
                          >> taw-mem-waw-(awl slip)-early zayin and I believe Inanna is mourning or
                          >> worshipping Tammuz.
                          >>
                          >> Jack Kilmon
                          >> San Antonio, Texas
                          >>
                          >> _._,___
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Robert M Whiting
                          ... To make my objections to the interpretation of the iconography as Tammuz worship more clear: a) Seal inscriptions seldom, if ever, describe the scene
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jan 18, 2008
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                            On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, Jack Kilmon wrote:

                            > I am aware of the paucity of exemplar iconographic material from Iron IIc
                            > Jerusalem but was focussing primarily on the inscription which does look to
                            > me like it could be Tammuz. Inanna and Tammuz' sister are depicted in
                            > earlier art as mourning together. The script reminds me of a cross between
                            > an Elephantine and Hebrew Seal and my first blush for the final letter was a
                            > nun but I have seen early zayins "on their sides" before. Of course, there
                            > is nothing like a careless ancient scribe to make our imaginations go wild.

                            To make my objections to the interpretation of the iconography as Tammuz
                            worship more clear:

                            a) Seal inscriptions seldom, if ever, describe the scene depicted in the
                            iconography. A seal inscription almost always identifies the owner of
                            the seal. There may be an indirect connection between the iconography
                            of the seal and the function of the owner, but unless this was the seal
                            of Tammuz, son of Kuthar, king of Phoenicia, or some namesake, the god
                            Tammuz is unlikely to be the owner of the seal (although it's not
                            impossible).

                            b) In order for the name to be interpreted as Tammuz the inscription has
                            to have been meant to be read directly from the seal rather than having
                            been cut so as to be read directly from the seal's impression (i.e., a
                            mirror image of the inscription). In my experience, this is only found
                            on seals that are votive gifts. In this case, a god name would be
                            appropriate, but one would also expect the name of the votant.

                            c) That Tammuz was not worshipped at this time is not an objection,
                            because it is simply false. Tammuz worship, or at least celebration,
                            continued well into the Islamic period in some areas (and note that
                            the month name Tammuz survives to this day). Tammuz was equated with
                            the Greek Adonis (see Jerome's Commentary on Ezechiel 3.8.14).

                            d) The lack of iconographic parallels turns the interpretation of the
                            scene into a free-for-all. The facts are that the scene shows two
                            figures flanking a stand with a cresecent in the background, the
                            crescent apparently repeated on the stand. Anything else is exegesis.
                            It is perhaps natural to interpret the figures as priests or
                            worshippers and the stand as an altar, but it is still interpretation.
                            Similarly it is natural to interpret the crescent as a symbol of the
                            moon god (Sin, or possibly Yarah). But the crescent is not a symbol of
                            Tammuz nor of Inanna.

                            Bob Whiting
                            whiting@...

                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: "Robert M Whiting" <whiting@...>
                            > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 3:56 PM
                            > Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal
                            >
                            >
                            > > The cult of Tammuz was alive and well in first millennium Israel. Cf.
                            > > Ezek. 8:14.
                            > >
                            > > However, I agree that it is unlikely that the iconography of this seal
                            > > represents such a scene, just not for the reason given.
                            > >
                            > > Bob Whiting
                            > > whiting@...
                            > >
                            > > On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, Trudy Kawami wrote:
                            > >
                            > >> It is unlikely that the seal shows Inanna mourning or worshipping
                            > >> Tammuz(Dummuzi) as these Sumerian deities were not worshipped in the
                            > >> first millennium BCE. As far as I am aware, there is no visual tradition
                            > >> of such a scene even in the third millennium BCE.
                            >
                            > >>
                            > >> Trudy Kawami
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> ________________________________
                            > >>
                            > >> From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                            > >> Jack Kilmon
                            > >> Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 12:56 PM
                            > >> To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                            > >> Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> As I suggested to Jim West on his excellent site a little while ago, I
                            > >> do
                            > >> not see "TMX" but in comparing the script to earlier seal and ostraca
                            > >> scripts as well as earlier scripts (the seal is older than the site) I
                            > >> see
                            > >> taw-mem-waw-(awl slip)-early zayin and I believe Inanna is mourning or
                            > >> worshipping Tammuz.
                            > >>
                            > >> Jack Kilmon
                            > >> San Antonio, Texas
                            > >>
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                          • Phil Jones
                            Dear list, Ammonite seals of this sort have been found in the past and have been documented. For those interested, please see Hestrin and Dayagi-Michaels.
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jan 18, 2008
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                              Dear list,

                              Ammonite seals of this sort have been found in the past and have been
                              documented. For those interested, please see Hestrin and Dayagi-Michaels. Inscribed Seals of the First Temple Period. Israel Museum,
                              Jeruselam, 1979. Seal 97. It's a very close example with similarities
                              again to the Neo-Babylonian iconography of the period clearly defined
                              and noted in the description.

                              With regards,

                              Phil Jones, Antiquarian
                              PBJI
                            • lmlkes
                              Dear Dr. Van Der Veen and Others: Hi!!! This is Michael Welch from Deltona, Florida. I, of course believe that Dr. Van Der Veen has it correct. The tsade is
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jan 18, 2008
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                                Dear Dr. Van Der Veen and Others: Hi!!! This is Michael Welch from
                                Deltona, Florida. I, of course believe that Dr. Van Der Veen has it
                                correct. The tsade is written this way in Judaean Epigraphy on many
                                seals in WSS and on LMLK Seals and Related Personal Seals in the LMLK
                                Corpus. However what is diagnostic about any of these letters or the
                                iconography??? Nothing as far as I can see that would narrow it to
                                the sixth or fifth centuries. It could be as early as the late Eighth
                                Century B.C. Or am I missing something??? For earlier bearded men we
                                have WSS 402,Kaufman Collection 42a-b, the Governor of the City
                                bullae.
                                With Much Gratitude,
                                Sincerely Yours,
                                Michael Welch
                                Deltona, Florida--- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Robert M Whiting
                                <whiting@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, Jack Kilmon wrote:
                                >
                                > > I am aware of the paucity of exemplar iconographic material from
                                Iron IIc
                                > > Jerusalem but was focussing primarily on the inscription which
                                does look to
                                > > me like it could be Tammuz. Inanna and Tammuz' sister are
                                depicted in
                                > > earlier art as mourning together. The script reminds me of a
                                cross between
                                > > an Elephantine and Hebrew Seal and my first blush for the final
                                letter was a
                                > > nun but I have seen early zayins "on their sides" before. Of
                                course, there
                                > > is nothing like a careless ancient scribe to make our
                                imaginations go wild.
                                >
                                > To make my objections to the interpretation of the iconography as
                                Tammuz
                                > worship more clear:
                                >
                                > a) Seal inscriptions seldom, if ever, describe the scene depicted
                                in the
                                > iconography. A seal inscription almost always identifies the
                                owner of
                                > the seal. There may be an indirect connection between the
                                iconography
                                > of the seal and the function of the owner, but unless this was
                                the seal
                                > of Tammuz, son of Kuthar, king of Phoenicia, or some namesake,
                                the god
                                > Tammuz is unlikely to be the owner of the seal (although it's not
                                > impossible).
                                >
                                > b) In order for the name to be interpreted as Tammuz the
                                inscription has
                                > to have been meant to be read directly from the seal rather than
                                having
                                > been cut so as to be read directly from the seal's impression
                                (i.e., a
                                > mirror image of the inscription). In my experience, this is
                                only found
                                > on seals that are votive gifts. In this case, a god name would
                                be
                                > appropriate, but one would also expect the name of the votant.
                                >
                                > c) That Tammuz was not worshipped at this time is not an objection,
                                > because it is simply false. Tammuz worship, or at least
                                celebration,
                                > continued well into the Islamic period in some areas (and note
                                that
                                > the month name Tammuz survives to this day). Tammuz was equated
                                with
                                > the Greek Adonis (see Jerome's Commentary on Ezechiel 3.8.14).
                                >
                                > d) The lack of iconographic parallels turns the interpretation of
                                the
                                > scene into a free-for-all. The facts are that the scene shows
                                two
                                > figures flanking a stand with a cresecent in the background, the
                                > crescent apparently repeated on the stand. Anything else is
                                exegesis.
                                > It is perhaps natural to interpret the figures as priests or
                                > worshippers and the stand as an altar, but it is still
                                interpretation.
                                > Similarly it is natural to interpret the crescent as a symbol of
                                the
                                > moon god (Sin, or possibly Yarah). But the crescent is not a
                                symbol of
                                > Tammuz nor of Inanna.
                                >
                                > Bob Whiting
                                > whiting@...
                                >
                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > From: "Robert M Whiting" <whiting@...>
                                > > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                                > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 3:56 PM
                                > > Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > > The cult of Tammuz was alive and well in first millennium
                                Israel. Cf.
                                > > > Ezek. 8:14.
                                > > >
                                > > > However, I agree that it is unlikely that the iconography of
                                this seal
                                > > > represents such a scene, just not for the reason given.
                                > > >
                                > > > Bob Whiting
                                > > > whiting@...
                                > > >
                                > > > On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, Trudy Kawami wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > >> It is unlikely that the seal shows Inanna mourning or
                                worshipping
                                > > >> Tammuz(Dummuzi) as these Sumerian deities were not worshipped
                                in the
                                > > >> first millennium BCE. As far as I am aware, there is no visual
                                tradition
                                > > >> of such a scene even in the third millennium BCE.
                                > >
                                > > >>
                                > > >> Trudy Kawami
                                > > >>
                                > > >>
                                > > >>
                                > > >> ________________________________
                                > > >>
                                > > >> From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On
                                Behalf Of
                                > > >> Jack Kilmon
                                > > >> Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 12:56 PM
                                > > >> To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                > > >> Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal
                                > > >>
                                > > >>
                                > > >>
                                > > >> As I suggested to Jim West on his excellent site a little
                                while ago, I
                                > > >> do
                                > > >> not see "TMX" but in comparing the script to earlier seal and
                                ostraca
                                > > >> scripts as well as earlier scripts (the seal is older than the
                                site) I
                                > > >> see
                                > > >> taw-mem-waw-(awl slip)-early zayin and I believe Inanna is
                                mourning or
                                > > >> worshipping Tammuz.
                                > > >>
                                > > >> Jack Kilmon
                                > > >> San Antonio, Texas
                                > > >>
                                > > >> _._,___
                                > > >>
                                > > >>
                              • lmlkes
                                Dear List, Hi!!! I should have previously said tsade and Shin. I left out Shin. I just looked up the Hestrin and Dayagi-Mendels number 97 seal mentioned by Dr.
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jan 18, 2008
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                                  Dear List, Hi!!! I should have previously said tsade and Shin. I left
                                  out Shin. I just looked up the Hestrin and Dayagi-Mendels number 97
                                  seal mentioned by Dr. Jones. It is dated to the 8th-7th Centuries
                                  B.C.E. on page 124.
                                  With Much Gratitude,
                                  Michael Welch
                                  Deltona, Florida
                                  --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I am aware of the paucity of exemplar iconographic material from
                                  Iron IIc
                                  > Jerusalem but was focussing primarily on the inscription which does
                                  look to
                                  > me like it could be Tammuz. Inanna and Tammuz' sister are depicted
                                  in
                                  > earlier art as mourning together. The script reminds me of a cross
                                  between
                                  > an Elephantine and Hebrew Seal and my first blush for the final
                                  letter was a
                                  > nun but I have seen early zayins "on their sides" before. Of
                                  course, there
                                  > is nothing like a careless ancient scribe to make our imaginations
                                  go wild.
                                  >
                                  > Jack Kilmon
                                  > San Antonio, Texas
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: "Robert M Whiting" <whiting@...>
                                  > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 3:56 PM
                                  > Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > The cult of Tammuz was alive and well in first millennium
                                  Israel. Cf.
                                  > > Ezek. 8:14.
                                  > >
                                  > > However, I agree that it is unlikely that the iconography of this
                                  seal
                                  > > represents such a scene, just not for the reason given.
                                  > >
                                  > > Bob Whiting
                                  > > whiting@...
                                  > >
                                  > > On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, Trudy Kawami wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >> It is unlikely that the seal shows Inanna mourning or worshipping
                                  > >> Tammuz(Dummuzi) as these Sumerian deities were not worshipped in
                                  the
                                  > >> first millennium BCE. As far as I am aware, there is no visual
                                  tradition
                                  > >> of such a scene even in the third millennium BCE.
                                  >
                                  > >>
                                  > >> Trudy Kawami
                                  > >>
                                  > >>
                                  > >>
                                  > >> ________________________________
                                  > >>
                                  > >> From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  Behalf Of
                                  > >> Jack Kilmon
                                  > >> Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 12:56 PM
                                  > >> To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                  > >> Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal
                                  > >>
                                  > >>
                                  > >>
                                  > >> As I suggested to Jim West on his excellent site a little while
                                  ago, I
                                  > >> do
                                  > >> not see "TMX" but in comparing the script to earlier seal and
                                  ostraca
                                  > >> scripts as well as earlier scripts (the seal is older than the
                                  site) I
                                  > >> see
                                  > >> taw-mem-waw-(awl slip)-early zayin and I believe Inanna is
                                  mourning or
                                  > >> worshipping Tammuz.
                                  > >>
                                  > >> Jack Kilmon
                                  > >> San Antonio, Texas
                                  > >>
                                  > >> _._,___
                                • Yitzhak Sapir
                                  ... This is a very pertinent parallel. The seal shows two worshippers flanking an altar of very similar shape, except there is no crescent at the top of the
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jan 19, 2008
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                                    On Jan 18, 2008 3:30 PM, Phil Jones wrote:
                                    > Dear list,
                                    >
                                    > Ammonite seals of this sort have been found in the past and have been
                                    > documented. For those interested, please see Hestrin and Dayagi-Michaels. Inscribed
                                    > Seals of the First Temple Period. Israel Museum,
                                    > Jeruselam, 1979. Seal 97. It's a very close example with similarities
                                    > again to the Neo-Babylonian iconography of the period clearly defined
                                    > and noted in the description.

                                    This is a very pertinent parallel. The seal shows two worshippers
                                    flanking an altar
                                    of very similar shape, except there is no crescent at the top of the
                                    altar. Behind
                                    each worshipper is a star that extends downwards to form an altar. Above the
                                    central altar is a crescent with a star above it. The lower section
                                    is delimited by
                                    two straight lines and the inscription underneath reads "l(zr?" ("of Ezra").

                                    A small correction, however: the co-author's name is Michal Dayagi-Mendels.

                                    I note the following comment from Naveh, "Early History of the
                                    Alphabet," (Hebrew
                                    version): "The main source for our knowledge of the Ammonite names are dozens
                                    of seals of which some were found in Amman, but most are of unknown origin. The
                                    identification of these seals as Ammonite was made only recently."
                                    This apparently
                                    hints at Avigad's work on seals. Perhaps the Ammonite identification
                                    is based on
                                    the moon/crescent symbol and the name yrx? -- comparing with the known
                                    Ammonite name of yrx(zr from the Amman statue inscription?

                                    Since Mazar's discovered seal was found in stratified layers, it is
                                    probably better
                                    dated than the seal described by Hestrin and Dayagi-Mendels. It might also mean
                                    that the identification of many unprovenanced seals as Ammonite is wrong.

                                    Yitzhak Sapir
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