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Re: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal

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  • Peter van der Veen
    Dear Yitzhaq, I looked at the picture of the seal very carefully. Indeed the iconography with the two flanking worshippers at the altar does suggest a date
    Message 1 of 19 , Jan 17, 2008
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      Dear Yitzhaq,

      I looked at the picture of the seal very carefully. Indeed the iconography with the two flanking worshippers at the altar does suggest a date somewhere in the 6th or 5th cent. BC. The name however does not seem to read 'temech' at all. I do not understand how such a reading came about. I suggest reading 'Schelomit' (sh-l-m-t) and already have had confirmations from colleagues with whom I shared the find this morning.

      best wishes
      Peter van der Veen PhD

      -------- Original-Nachricht --------
      > Datum: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:05:43 +0200
      > Von: "Yitzhak Sapir" <yitzhaksapir@...>
      > An: biblical-studies@yahoogroups.com, canaanite@yahoogroups.com, ane-2@yahoogroups.com
      > Betreff: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal

      > According to the Jerusalem Post, pointed out by Joseph Lauer and a reader
      > on Jim West's blog, Eilat Mazar found another seal during excavations:
      >
      > http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1200475897717&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
      >
      > The seal reads "tmx" (TamaH) and Mazar dates it to 538-445 BCE. It
      > includes
      > an image of two priests sacrificing to the moon god Sin. A photo of
      > the seal is
      > included in the above link.
      >
      > Yitzhak Sapir
    • Peter van der Veen
      Dear Itzhaq, I just had a chat with Eilat Mazar and can now understand why she suggests the reading tmh . As words can be read mirrorwise during the Persian
      Message 2 of 19 , Jan 17, 2008
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        Dear Itzhaq,

        I just had a chat with Eilat Mazar and can now understand why she suggests the reading 'tmh'. As words can be read mirrorwise during the Persian period (this is often also the case with the famous YHD stamps) she reads the seal from right to left (normally the inscriptions go from left to right as the seal is always incised mirrorwise in order to get the 'right to left' impression on the bulla). I told her about my reading and she found that it was interesting, but as she had little time she could not check it now. Indeed more work must be done and careful comparison with other seals is an absolute prerequisite. She felt that reading a 'shin' would be somewhat problematic as the incised letter on the seal depicts two 'V's written slightly across each other. But I believe that this is not a problem at all. For this type has good parallels in the late Iron Age and Persian periods. (parallels can be found in N. Avigad and Benny Sass' Corpus of West Semitic Stamp Seals e.g. WSS 805, 1071).

        Reading a 'het' here also requests that the letter had two vertical strokes on the left, which is very unusual. The only problem with my reading is that the 'lamed' would have been executed merely as a vertical long stroke without a horizontal side bar. This may be due to the carelessness of the engraver, but needs to be observed and parallels for this need to be found.

        Hence two readings stand at the moment:

        'tmh' (i.e. reading the 'wrong' way round) as per Eilat Mazar,
        'sh-l-m-t' (i.e. reading the 'right' way round) as per my suggestion,

        Best wishes

        Peter van der Veen PhD
        -------- Original-Nachricht --------
        > Datum: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 13:12:07 +0100
        > Von: "Peter van der Veen" <van_der_Veen@...>
        > An: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        > Betreff: Re: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal

        > Dear Yitzhaq,
        >
        > I looked at the picture of the seal very carefully. Indeed the iconography
        > with the two flanking worshippers at the altar does suggest a date
        > somewhere in the 6th or 5th cent. BC. The name however does not seem to read
        > 'temech' at all. I do not understand how such a reading came about. I suggest
        > reading 'Schelomit' (sh-l-m-t) and already have had confirmations from
        > colleagues with whom I shared the find this morning.
        >
        > best wishes
        > Peter van der Veen PhD
        >
        > -------- Original-Nachricht --------
        > > Datum: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:05:43 +0200
        > > Von: "Yitzhak Sapir" <yitzhaksapir@...>
        > > An: biblical-studies@yahoogroups.com, canaanite@yahoogroups.com,
        > ane-2@yahoogroups.com
        > > Betreff: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal
        >
        > > According to the Jerusalem Post, pointed out by Joseph Lauer and a
        > reader
        > > on Jim West's blog, Eilat Mazar found another seal during excavations:
        > >
        > >
        > http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1200475897717&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
        > >
        > > The seal reads "tmx" (TamaH) and Mazar dates it to 538-445 BCE. It
        > > includes
        > > an image of two priests sacrificing to the moon god Sin. A photo of
        > > the seal is
        > > included in the above link.
        > >
        > > Yitzhak Sapir
      • victor
        Could it be that you and Mazar are reading the seal from opposite directions, you from left to right and she from right to left? Obviously if the letters on
        Message 3 of 19 , Jan 17, 2008
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          Could it be that you and Mazar are reading the seal from opposite
          directions, you from left to right and she from right to left? Obviously if
          the letters on the seal are written as mirror image of what is to be
          impressed you are then you are left right and she's left wrong. There are
          $lmyt (plene spelling) in Leviticus, Ezra and Chronicles. And a $lmwt in 1
          Chronicles

          Victor Hurowitz

          Ben-Gurion University



          _____

          From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          Peter van der Veen
          Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 2:12 PM
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal



          Dear Yitzhaq,

          I looked at the picture of the seal very carefully. Indeed the iconography
          with the two flanking worshippers at the altar does suggest a date somewhere
          in the 6th or 5th cent. BC. The name however does not seem to read 'temech'
          at all. I do not understand how such a reading came about. I suggest reading
          'Schelomit' (sh-l-m-t) and already have had confirmations from colleagues
          with whom I shared the find this morning.

          best wishes
          Peter van der Veen PhD

          -------- Original-Nachricht --------
          > Datum: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:05:43 +0200
          > Von: "Yitzhak Sapir" <yitzhaksapir@ <mailto:yitzhaksapir%40gmail.com>
          gmail.com>
          > An: biblical-studies@ <mailto:biblical-studies%40yahoogroups.com>
          yahoogroups.com, canaanite@yahoogrou <mailto:canaanite%40yahoogroups.com>
          ps.com, ane-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ane-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
          > Betreff: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal

          > According to the Jerusalem Post, pointed out by Joseph Lauer and a reader
          > on Jim West's blog, Eilat Mazar found another seal during excavations:
          >
          > http://www.jpost
          <http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1200475897717&pagename=JPost%2FJ
          PArticle%2FShowFull>
          com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1200475897717&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFul
          l
          >
          > The seal reads "tmx" (TamaH) and Mazar dates it to 538-445 BCE. It
          > includes
          > an image of two priests sacrificing to the moon god Sin. A photo of
          > the seal is
          > included in the above link.
          >
          > Yitzhak Sapir





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • George F Somsel
          I presume that you are reading L - R rather than R - L. george gfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the
          Message 4 of 19 , Jan 17, 2008
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            I presume that you are reading L -> R rather than R -> L.


            george
            gfsomsel

            � search for truth, hear truth,
            learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
            defend the truth till death.

            - Jan Hus
            _________



            ----- Original Message ----
            From: Peter van der Veen <van_der_Veen@...>
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 7:12:07 AM
            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal

            Dear Yitzhaq,

            I looked at the picture of the seal very carefully. Indeed the iconography with the two flanking worshippers at the altar does suggest a date somewhere in the 6th or 5th cent. BC. The name however does not seem to read 'temech' at all. I do not understand how such a reading came about. I suggest reading 'Schelomit' (sh-l-m-t) and already have had confirmations from colleagues with whom I shared the find this morning.

            best wishes
            Peter van der Veen PhD

            -------- Original-Nachricht --------
            > Datum: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:05:43 +0200
            > Von: "Yitzhak Sapir" <yitzhaksapir@ gmail.com>
            > An: biblical-studies@ yahoogroups. com, canaanite@yahoogrou ps.com, ane-2@yahoogroups. com
            > Betreff: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal

            > According to the Jerusalem Post, pointed out by Joseph Lauer and a reader
            > on Jim West's blog, Eilat Mazar found another seal during excavations:
            >
            > http://www.jpost com/servlet/ Satellite? cid=120047589771 7&pagename= JPost%2FJPArticl e%2FShowFull
            >
            > The seal reads "tmx" (TamaH) and Mazar dates it to 538-445 BCE. It
            > includes
            > an image of two priests sacrificing to the moon god Sin. A photo of
            > the seal is
            > included in the above link.
            >
            > Yitzhak Sapir.



            ____________________________________________________________________________________
            Be a better friend, newshound, and
            know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • George F Somsel
            Ah! It just occured to me. In a seal it would be carved so as to reproduce in the the opposite direction. My error. george gfsomsel … search for truth,
            Message 5 of 19 , Jan 17, 2008
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              Ah! It just occured to me. In a seal it would be carved so as to reproduce in the the opposite direction. My error.

              george
              gfsomsel

              � search for truth, hear truth,
              learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
              defend the truth till death.

              - Jan Hus
              _________



              ----- Original Message ----
              From: Peter van der Veen <van_der_Veen@...>
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 7:12:07 AM
              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal

              Dear Yitzhaq,

              I looked at the picture of the seal very carefully. Indeed the iconography with the two flanking worshippers at the altar does suggest a date somewhere in the 6th or 5th cent. BC. The name however does not seem to read 'temech' at all. I do not understand how such a reading came about. I suggest reading 'Schelomit' (sh-l-m-t) and already have had confirmations from colleagues with whom I shared the find this morning.

              best wishes
              Peter van der Veen PhD

              -------- Original-Nachricht --------
              > Datum: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:05:43 +0200
              > Von: "Yitzhak Sapir" <yitzhaksapir@ gmail.com>
              > An: biblical-studies@ yahoogroups. com, canaanite@yahoogrou ps.com, ane-2@yahoogroups. com
              > Betreff: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal

              > According to the Jerusalem Post, pointed out by Joseph Lauer and a reader
              > on Jim West's blog, Eilat Mazar found another seal during excavations:
              >
              > http://www.jpost com/servlet/ Satellite? cid=120047589771 7&pagename= JPost%2FJPArticl e%2FShowFull
              >
              > The seal reads "tmx" (TamaH) and Mazar dates it to 538-445 BCE. It
              > includes
              > an image of two priests sacrificing to the moon god Sin. A photo of
              > the seal is
              > included in the above link.
              >
              > Yitzhak Sapir.



              ____________________________________________________________________________________
              Be a better friend, newshound, and
              know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Trudy Kawami
              It is instructive how the rush to press produced a mis-identification of the patron god of Babylon, Marduk not Sin. Alas there is nothing in the imagery of the
              Message 6 of 19 , Jan 17, 2008
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                It is instructive how the rush to press produced a mis-identification of
                the patron god of Babylon, Marduk not Sin. Alas there is nothing in the
                imagery of the seal to link it with Babylon itself, just to the
                Neo-Babylonian period.

                Trudy Kawami



                ________________________________

                From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                Yitzhak Sapir
                Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 7:06 AM
                To: biblical-studies@yahoogroups.com; canaanite@yahoogroups.com;
                ane-2@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal



                According to the Jerusalem Post, pointed out by Joseph Lauer and a
                reader
                on Jim West's blog, Eilat Mazar found another seal during excavations:

                http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1200475897717&pagename=JPost%
                2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
                <http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1200475897717&pagename=JPost
                %2FJPArticle%2FShowFull>

                The seal reads "tmx" (TamaH) and Mazar dates it to 538-445 BCE. It
                includes
                an image of two priests sacrificing to the moon god Sin. A photo of
                the seal is
                included in the above link.

                Yitzhak Sapir





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jack Kilmon
                As I suggested to Jim West on his excellent site a little while ago, I do not see TMX but in comparing the script to earlier seal and ostraca scripts as well
                Message 7 of 19 , Jan 17, 2008
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                  As I suggested to Jim West on his excellent site a little while ago, I do
                  not see "TMX" but in comparing the script to earlier seal and ostraca
                  scripts as well as earlier scripts (the seal is older than the site) I see
                  taw-mem-waw-(awl slip)-early zayin and I believe Inanna is mourning or
                  worshipping Tammuz.

                  Jack Kilmon
                  San Antonio, Texas


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Trudy Kawami" <tkawami@...>
                  To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:54 AM
                  Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal


                  > It is instructive how the rush to press produced a mis-identification of
                  > the patron god of Babylon, Marduk not Sin. Alas there is nothing in the
                  > imagery of the seal to link it with Babylon itself, just to the
                  > Neo-Babylonian period.
                  >
                  > Trudy Kawami
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  >
                  > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  > Yitzhak Sapir
                  > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 7:06 AM
                  > To: biblical-studies@yahoogroups.com; canaanite@yahoogroups.com;
                  > ane-2@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > According to the Jerusalem Post, pointed out by Joseph Lauer and a
                  > reader
                  > on Jim West's blog, Eilat Mazar found another seal during excavations:
                  >
                  > http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1200475897717&pagename=JPost%
                  > 2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
                  > <http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1200475897717&pagename=JPost
                  > %2FJPArticle%2FShowFull>
                  >
                  > The seal reads "tmx" (TamaH) and Mazar dates it to 538-445 BCE. It
                  > includes
                  > an image of two priests sacrificing to the moon god Sin. A photo of
                  > the seal is
                  > included in the above link.
                  >
                  > Yitzhak Sapir
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Trudy Kawami
                  It is unlikely that the seal shows Inanna mourning or worshipping Tammuz(Dummuzi) as these Sumerian deities were not worshipped in the first millennium BCE. As
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jan 17, 2008
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                    It is unlikely that the seal shows Inanna mourning or worshipping
                    Tammuz(Dummuzi) as these Sumerian deities were not worshipped in the
                    first millennium BCE. As far as I am aware, there is no visual tradition
                    of such a scene even in the third millennium BCE.

                    Trudy Kawami



                    ________________________________

                    From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    Jack Kilmon
                    Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 12:56 PM
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal



                    As I suggested to Jim West on his excellent site a little while ago, I
                    do
                    not see "TMX" but in comparing the script to earlier seal and ostraca
                    scripts as well as earlier scripts (the seal is older than the site) I
                    see
                    taw-mem-waw-(awl slip)-early zayin and I believe Inanna is mourning or
                    worshipping Tammuz.

                    Jack Kilmon
                    San Antonio, Texas

                    _._,___



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Joan Griffith
                    Could this seal be interpreted as Jewish priests burning incense at the time of the new moon? Joan Griffith
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jan 17, 2008
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                      Could this seal be interpreted as Jewish priests burning incense at the time
                      of the new moon?

                      Joan Griffith

                      On Jan 17, 2008 2:20 PM, Trudy Kawami <tkawami@...> wrote:

                      > It is unlikely that the seal shows Inanna mourning or worshipping
                      > Tammuz(Dummuzi) as these Sumerian deities were not worshipped in the
                      > first millennium BCE. As far as I am aware, there is no visual tradition
                      > of such a scene even in the third millennium BCE.
                      >
                      > Trudy Kawami
                      >
                    • Robert M Whiting
                      The cult of Tammuz was alive and well in first millennium Israel. Cf. Ezek. 8:14. However, I agree that it is unlikely that the iconography of this seal
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jan 17, 2008
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                        The cult of Tammuz was alive and well in first millennium Israel. Cf.
                        Ezek. 8:14.

                        However, I agree that it is unlikely that the iconography of this seal
                        represents such a scene, just not for the reason given.

                        Bob Whiting
                        whiting@...

                        On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, Trudy Kawami wrote:

                        > It is unlikely that the seal shows Inanna mourning or worshipping
                        > Tammuz(Dummuzi) as these Sumerian deities were not worshipped in the
                        > first millennium BCE. As far as I am aware, there is no visual tradition
                        > of such a scene even in the third millennium BCE.
                        >
                        > Trudy Kawami
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        >
                        > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                        > Jack Kilmon
                        > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 12:56 PM
                        > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > As I suggested to Jim West on his excellent site a little while ago, I
                        > do
                        > not see "TMX" but in comparing the script to earlier seal and ostraca
                        > scripts as well as earlier scripts (the seal is older than the site) I
                        > see
                        > taw-mem-waw-(awl slip)-early zayin and I believe Inanna is mourning or
                        > worshipping Tammuz.
                        >
                        > Jack Kilmon
                        > San Antonio, Texas
                        >
                        > _._,___
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Kevin P. Edgecomb
                        It appears to me to be the seal of the owner of the $almāta pizzeria located in the lower east side of the city. Notice the two cooks spinning the dough!
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jan 17, 2008
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                          It appears to me to be the seal of the owner of the $almāta pizzeria located in the lower east side of the city. Notice the two cooks spinning the dough!

                          Regards,
                          Kevin P. Edgecomb
                          Berkeley, California


                          ---- <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                          >
                          > The cult of Tammuz was alive and well in first millennium Israel. Cf.
                          > Ezek. 8:14.
                          >
                          > However, I agree that it is unlikely that the iconography of this seal
                          > represents such a scene, just not for the reason given.
                        • George F Somsel
                          Booooo … george gfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death. - Jan Hus
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jan 17, 2008
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                            Booooo �

                            george
                            gfsomsel

                            � search for truth, hear truth,
                            learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                            defend the truth till death.

                            - Jan Hus
                            _________



                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: Kevin P. Edgecomb <kevin@...>
                            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 5:04:39 PM
                            Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal

                            It appears to me to be the seal of the owner of the $alm�ta pizzeria located in the lower east side of the city. Notice the two cooks spinning the dough!

                            Regards,
                            Kevin P. Edgecomb
                            Berkeley, California

                            ---- <ANE-2@yahoogroups. com> wrote:
                            >
                            > The cult of Tammuz was alive and well in first millennium Israel. Cf.
                            > Ezek. 8:14.
                            >
                            > However, I agree that it is unlikely that the iconography of this seal
                            > represents such a scene, just not for the reason given.




                            ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                            Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Jack Kilmon
                            I am aware of the paucity of exemplar iconographic material from Iron IIc Jerusalem but was focussing primarily on the inscription which does look to me like
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jan 17, 2008
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                              I am aware of the paucity of exemplar iconographic material from Iron IIc
                              Jerusalem but was focussing primarily on the inscription which does look to
                              me like it could be Tammuz. Inanna and Tammuz' sister are depicted in
                              earlier art as mourning together. The script reminds me of a cross between
                              an Elephantine and Hebrew Seal and my first blush for the final letter was a
                              nun but I have seen early zayins "on their sides" before. Of course, there
                              is nothing like a careless ancient scribe to make our imaginations go wild.

                              Jack Kilmon
                              San Antonio, Texas

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Robert M Whiting" <whiting@...>
                              To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 3:56 PM
                              Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal


                              > The cult of Tammuz was alive and well in first millennium Israel. Cf.
                              > Ezek. 8:14.
                              >
                              > However, I agree that it is unlikely that the iconography of this seal
                              > represents such a scene, just not for the reason given.
                              >
                              > Bob Whiting
                              > whiting@...
                              >
                              > On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, Trudy Kawami wrote:
                              >
                              >> It is unlikely that the seal shows Inanna mourning or worshipping
                              >> Tammuz(Dummuzi) as these Sumerian deities were not worshipped in the
                              >> first millennium BCE. As far as I am aware, there is no visual tradition
                              >> of such a scene even in the third millennium BCE.

                              >>
                              >> Trudy Kawami
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> ________________________________
                              >>
                              >> From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                              >> Jack Kilmon
                              >> Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 12:56 PM
                              >> To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                              >> Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> As I suggested to Jim West on his excellent site a little while ago, I
                              >> do
                              >> not see "TMX" but in comparing the script to earlier seal and ostraca
                              >> scripts as well as earlier scripts (the seal is older than the site) I
                              >> see
                              >> taw-mem-waw-(awl slip)-early zayin and I believe Inanna is mourning or
                              >> worshipping Tammuz.
                              >>
                              >> Jack Kilmon
                              >> San Antonio, Texas
                              >>
                              >> _._,___
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Robert M Whiting
                              ... To make my objections to the interpretation of the iconography as Tammuz worship more clear: a) Seal inscriptions seldom, if ever, describe the scene
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jan 18, 2008
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                                On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, Jack Kilmon wrote:

                                > I am aware of the paucity of exemplar iconographic material from Iron IIc
                                > Jerusalem but was focussing primarily on the inscription which does look to
                                > me like it could be Tammuz. Inanna and Tammuz' sister are depicted in
                                > earlier art as mourning together. The script reminds me of a cross between
                                > an Elephantine and Hebrew Seal and my first blush for the final letter was a
                                > nun but I have seen early zayins "on their sides" before. Of course, there
                                > is nothing like a careless ancient scribe to make our imaginations go wild.

                                To make my objections to the interpretation of the iconography as Tammuz
                                worship more clear:

                                a) Seal inscriptions seldom, if ever, describe the scene depicted in the
                                iconography. A seal inscription almost always identifies the owner of
                                the seal. There may be an indirect connection between the iconography
                                of the seal and the function of the owner, but unless this was the seal
                                of Tammuz, son of Kuthar, king of Phoenicia, or some namesake, the god
                                Tammuz is unlikely to be the owner of the seal (although it's not
                                impossible).

                                b) In order for the name to be interpreted as Tammuz the inscription has
                                to have been meant to be read directly from the seal rather than having
                                been cut so as to be read directly from the seal's impression (i.e., a
                                mirror image of the inscription). In my experience, this is only found
                                on seals that are votive gifts. In this case, a god name would be
                                appropriate, but one would also expect the name of the votant.

                                c) That Tammuz was not worshipped at this time is not an objection,
                                because it is simply false. Tammuz worship, or at least celebration,
                                continued well into the Islamic period in some areas (and note that
                                the month name Tammuz survives to this day). Tammuz was equated with
                                the Greek Adonis (see Jerome's Commentary on Ezechiel 3.8.14).

                                d) The lack of iconographic parallels turns the interpretation of the
                                scene into a free-for-all. The facts are that the scene shows two
                                figures flanking a stand with a cresecent in the background, the
                                crescent apparently repeated on the stand. Anything else is exegesis.
                                It is perhaps natural to interpret the figures as priests or
                                worshippers and the stand as an altar, but it is still interpretation.
                                Similarly it is natural to interpret the crescent as a symbol of the
                                moon god (Sin, or possibly Yarah). But the crescent is not a symbol of
                                Tammuz nor of Inanna.

                                Bob Whiting
                                whiting@...

                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: "Robert M Whiting" <whiting@...>
                                > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                                > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 3:56 PM
                                > Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal
                                >
                                >
                                > > The cult of Tammuz was alive and well in first millennium Israel. Cf.
                                > > Ezek. 8:14.
                                > >
                                > > However, I agree that it is unlikely that the iconography of this seal
                                > > represents such a scene, just not for the reason given.
                                > >
                                > > Bob Whiting
                                > > whiting@...
                                > >
                                > > On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, Trudy Kawami wrote:
                                > >
                                > >> It is unlikely that the seal shows Inanna mourning or worshipping
                                > >> Tammuz(Dummuzi) as these Sumerian deities were not worshipped in the
                                > >> first millennium BCE. As far as I am aware, there is no visual tradition
                                > >> of such a scene even in the third millennium BCE.
                                >
                                > >>
                                > >> Trudy Kawami
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >> ________________________________
                                > >>
                                > >> From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                > >> Jack Kilmon
                                > >> Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 12:56 PM
                                > >> To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                > >> Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >> As I suggested to Jim West on his excellent site a little while ago, I
                                > >> do
                                > >> not see "TMX" but in comparing the script to earlier seal and ostraca
                                > >> scripts as well as earlier scripts (the seal is older than the site) I
                                > >> see
                                > >> taw-mem-waw-(awl slip)-early zayin and I believe Inanna is mourning or
                                > >> worshipping Tammuz.
                                > >>
                                > >> Jack Kilmon
                                > >> San Antonio, Texas
                                > >>
                                > >> _._,___
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • Phil Jones
                                Dear list, Ammonite seals of this sort have been found in the past and have been documented. For those interested, please see Hestrin and Dayagi-Michaels.
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jan 18, 2008
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                                  Dear list,

                                  Ammonite seals of this sort have been found in the past and have been
                                  documented. For those interested, please see Hestrin and Dayagi-Michaels. Inscribed Seals of the First Temple Period. Israel Museum,
                                  Jeruselam, 1979. Seal 97. It's a very close example with similarities
                                  again to the Neo-Babylonian iconography of the period clearly defined
                                  and noted in the description.

                                  With regards,

                                  Phil Jones, Antiquarian
                                  PBJI
                                • lmlkes
                                  Dear Dr. Van Der Veen and Others: Hi!!! This is Michael Welch from Deltona, Florida. I, of course believe that Dr. Van Der Veen has it correct. The tsade is
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jan 18, 2008
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                                    Dear Dr. Van Der Veen and Others: Hi!!! This is Michael Welch from
                                    Deltona, Florida. I, of course believe that Dr. Van Der Veen has it
                                    correct. The tsade is written this way in Judaean Epigraphy on many
                                    seals in WSS and on LMLK Seals and Related Personal Seals in the LMLK
                                    Corpus. However what is diagnostic about any of these letters or the
                                    iconography??? Nothing as far as I can see that would narrow it to
                                    the sixth or fifth centuries. It could be as early as the late Eighth
                                    Century B.C. Or am I missing something??? For earlier bearded men we
                                    have WSS 402,Kaufman Collection 42a-b, the Governor of the City
                                    bullae.
                                    With Much Gratitude,
                                    Sincerely Yours,
                                    Michael Welch
                                    Deltona, Florida--- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Robert M Whiting
                                    <whiting@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, Jack Kilmon wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > I am aware of the paucity of exemplar iconographic material from
                                    Iron IIc
                                    > > Jerusalem but was focussing primarily on the inscription which
                                    does look to
                                    > > me like it could be Tammuz. Inanna and Tammuz' sister are
                                    depicted in
                                    > > earlier art as mourning together. The script reminds me of a
                                    cross between
                                    > > an Elephantine and Hebrew Seal and my first blush for the final
                                    letter was a
                                    > > nun but I have seen early zayins "on their sides" before. Of
                                    course, there
                                    > > is nothing like a careless ancient scribe to make our
                                    imaginations go wild.
                                    >
                                    > To make my objections to the interpretation of the iconography as
                                    Tammuz
                                    > worship more clear:
                                    >
                                    > a) Seal inscriptions seldom, if ever, describe the scene depicted
                                    in the
                                    > iconography. A seal inscription almost always identifies the
                                    owner of
                                    > the seal. There may be an indirect connection between the
                                    iconography
                                    > of the seal and the function of the owner, but unless this was
                                    the seal
                                    > of Tammuz, son of Kuthar, king of Phoenicia, or some namesake,
                                    the god
                                    > Tammuz is unlikely to be the owner of the seal (although it's not
                                    > impossible).
                                    >
                                    > b) In order for the name to be interpreted as Tammuz the
                                    inscription has
                                    > to have been meant to be read directly from the seal rather than
                                    having
                                    > been cut so as to be read directly from the seal's impression
                                    (i.e., a
                                    > mirror image of the inscription). In my experience, this is
                                    only found
                                    > on seals that are votive gifts. In this case, a god name would
                                    be
                                    > appropriate, but one would also expect the name of the votant.
                                    >
                                    > c) That Tammuz was not worshipped at this time is not an objection,
                                    > because it is simply false. Tammuz worship, or at least
                                    celebration,
                                    > continued well into the Islamic period in some areas (and note
                                    that
                                    > the month name Tammuz survives to this day). Tammuz was equated
                                    with
                                    > the Greek Adonis (see Jerome's Commentary on Ezechiel 3.8.14).
                                    >
                                    > d) The lack of iconographic parallels turns the interpretation of
                                    the
                                    > scene into a free-for-all. The facts are that the scene shows
                                    two
                                    > figures flanking a stand with a cresecent in the background, the
                                    > crescent apparently repeated on the stand. Anything else is
                                    exegesis.
                                    > It is perhaps natural to interpret the figures as priests or
                                    > worshippers and the stand as an altar, but it is still
                                    interpretation.
                                    > Similarly it is natural to interpret the crescent as a symbol of
                                    the
                                    > moon god (Sin, or possibly Yarah). But the crescent is not a
                                    symbol of
                                    > Tammuz nor of Inanna.
                                    >
                                    > Bob Whiting
                                    > whiting@...
                                    >
                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > From: "Robert M Whiting" <whiting@...>
                                    > > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 3:56 PM
                                    > > Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > > The cult of Tammuz was alive and well in first millennium
                                    Israel. Cf.
                                    > > > Ezek. 8:14.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > However, I agree that it is unlikely that the iconography of
                                    this seal
                                    > > > represents such a scene, just not for the reason given.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Bob Whiting
                                    > > > whiting@...
                                    > > >
                                    > > > On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, Trudy Kawami wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > >> It is unlikely that the seal shows Inanna mourning or
                                    worshipping
                                    > > >> Tammuz(Dummuzi) as these Sumerian deities were not worshipped
                                    in the
                                    > > >> first millennium BCE. As far as I am aware, there is no visual
                                    tradition
                                    > > >> of such a scene even in the third millennium BCE.
                                    > >
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >> Trudy Kawami
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >> ________________________________
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >> From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On
                                    Behalf Of
                                    > > >> Jack Kilmon
                                    > > >> Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 12:56 PM
                                    > > >> To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > >> Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >> As I suggested to Jim West on his excellent site a little
                                    while ago, I
                                    > > >> do
                                    > > >> not see "TMX" but in comparing the script to earlier seal and
                                    ostraca
                                    > > >> scripts as well as earlier scripts (the seal is older than the
                                    site) I
                                    > > >> see
                                    > > >> taw-mem-waw-(awl slip)-early zayin and I believe Inanna is
                                    mourning or
                                    > > >> worshipping Tammuz.
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >> Jack Kilmon
                                    > > >> San Antonio, Texas
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >> _._,___
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >>
                                  • lmlkes
                                    Dear List, Hi!!! I should have previously said tsade and Shin. I left out Shin. I just looked up the Hestrin and Dayagi-Mendels number 97 seal mentioned by Dr.
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jan 18, 2008
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                                      Dear List, Hi!!! I should have previously said tsade and Shin. I left
                                      out Shin. I just looked up the Hestrin and Dayagi-Mendels number 97
                                      seal mentioned by Dr. Jones. It is dated to the 8th-7th Centuries
                                      B.C.E. on page 124.
                                      With Much Gratitude,
                                      Michael Welch
                                      Deltona, Florida
                                      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I am aware of the paucity of exemplar iconographic material from
                                      Iron IIc
                                      > Jerusalem but was focussing primarily on the inscription which does
                                      look to
                                      > me like it could be Tammuz. Inanna and Tammuz' sister are depicted
                                      in
                                      > earlier art as mourning together. The script reminds me of a cross
                                      between
                                      > an Elephantine and Hebrew Seal and my first blush for the final
                                      letter was a
                                      > nun but I have seen early zayins "on their sides" before. Of
                                      course, there
                                      > is nothing like a careless ancient scribe to make our imaginations
                                      go wild.
                                      >
                                      > Jack Kilmon
                                      > San Antonio, Texas
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: "Robert M Whiting" <whiting@...>
                                      > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                                      > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 3:56 PM
                                      > Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > The cult of Tammuz was alive and well in first millennium
                                      Israel. Cf.
                                      > > Ezek. 8:14.
                                      > >
                                      > > However, I agree that it is unlikely that the iconography of this
                                      seal
                                      > > represents such a scene, just not for the reason given.
                                      > >
                                      > > Bob Whiting
                                      > > whiting@...
                                      > >
                                      > > On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, Trudy Kawami wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >> It is unlikely that the seal shows Inanna mourning or worshipping
                                      > >> Tammuz(Dummuzi) as these Sumerian deities were not worshipped in
                                      the
                                      > >> first millennium BCE. As far as I am aware, there is no visual
                                      tradition
                                      > >> of such a scene even in the third millennium BCE.
                                      >
                                      > >>
                                      > >> Trudy Kawami
                                      > >>
                                      > >>
                                      > >>
                                      > >> ________________________________
                                      > >>
                                      > >> From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On
                                      Behalf Of
                                      > >> Jack Kilmon
                                      > >> Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 12:56 PM
                                      > >> To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                      > >> Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Eilat Mazar finds another seal
                                      > >>
                                      > >>
                                      > >>
                                      > >> As I suggested to Jim West on his excellent site a little while
                                      ago, I
                                      > >> do
                                      > >> not see "TMX" but in comparing the script to earlier seal and
                                      ostraca
                                      > >> scripts as well as earlier scripts (the seal is older than the
                                      site) I
                                      > >> see
                                      > >> taw-mem-waw-(awl slip)-early zayin and I believe Inanna is
                                      mourning or
                                      > >> worshipping Tammuz.
                                      > >>
                                      > >> Jack Kilmon
                                      > >> San Antonio, Texas
                                      > >>
                                      > >> _._,___
                                    • Yitzhak Sapir
                                      ... This is a very pertinent parallel. The seal shows two worshippers flanking an altar of very similar shape, except there is no crescent at the top of the
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jan 19, 2008
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                                        On Jan 18, 2008 3:30 PM, Phil Jones wrote:
                                        > Dear list,
                                        >
                                        > Ammonite seals of this sort have been found in the past and have been
                                        > documented. For those interested, please see Hestrin and Dayagi-Michaels. Inscribed
                                        > Seals of the First Temple Period. Israel Museum,
                                        > Jeruselam, 1979. Seal 97. It's a very close example with similarities
                                        > again to the Neo-Babylonian iconography of the period clearly defined
                                        > and noted in the description.

                                        This is a very pertinent parallel. The seal shows two worshippers
                                        flanking an altar
                                        of very similar shape, except there is no crescent at the top of the
                                        altar. Behind
                                        each worshipper is a star that extends downwards to form an altar. Above the
                                        central altar is a crescent with a star above it. The lower section
                                        is delimited by
                                        two straight lines and the inscription underneath reads "l(zr?" ("of Ezra").

                                        A small correction, however: the co-author's name is Michal Dayagi-Mendels.

                                        I note the following comment from Naveh, "Early History of the
                                        Alphabet," (Hebrew
                                        version): "The main source for our knowledge of the Ammonite names are dozens
                                        of seals of which some were found in Amman, but most are of unknown origin. The
                                        identification of these seals as Ammonite was made only recently."
                                        This apparently
                                        hints at Avigad's work on seals. Perhaps the Ammonite identification
                                        is based on
                                        the moon/crescent symbol and the name yrx? -- comparing with the known
                                        Ammonite name of yrx(zr from the Amman statue inscription?

                                        Since Mazar's discovered seal was found in stratified layers, it is
                                        probably better
                                        dated than the seal described by Hestrin and Dayagi-Mendels. It might also mean
                                        that the identification of many unprovenanced seals as Ammonite is wrong.

                                        Yitzhak Sapir
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