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Re: [ANE-2] Re: Qumran inkwells and other facts

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  • goranson@duke.edu
    One possible reason for difference between Qumran and Masada, in regard to whether animal skin scrolls would survive, is that Qumran got flooded more than
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 2, 2008
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      One possible reason for difference between Qumran and Masada, in regard
      to whether animal skin scrolls would survive, is that Qumran got flooded
      more than Masada, because Qumran's location and sometimes-broken water system
      brought more water to it, which would rot scrolls, moreso than Masada, which
      was not flooded from land above it and whose water system was below it. Also,
      Masada had casemate walls; Qumran not, among additional differences.
      Again, there was writing on clay and stone found in Kh. Qumran, which is
      published in Humbert and Gunneweg, Khirbet Qumran...II: etudes... 2003. I wish
      those posting on this subject would read that before more declarations. And why
      cite declarations on Dead Sea Scrolls from some (e.g. Hirschfeld) who were not
      Dead Sea Scroll scholars?

      Those interested in the tentative suggestion of Yael Olnick {also in English as
      Olenick) can read her Early Roman-Period Pottery Inkwells from Eretz-Yisrael,"
      Israel--People and Land I (1983-1984) 55-66 Hebrew; 10-11, English, on inkwell
      types. We await full Shufat publication.

      For a review of Edna Ullmann-Margalit's book Out of the Cave, see amazon.com:
      http://tinyurl.com/2z3fwn

      In many posts no one responded to the evidence in the recently-posted review of
      N. Golb, Who Wrote the Scrolls that tells against his proposal. Plus, if these
      were Jerusalem libraries, why are there no indications of ownership for
      retrieval?

      Interestingly, Ulrich makes another three-cave scribal connection in:
      Ulrich, Eugene. "Identification of a Scribe Active at Qumran:
      1QPsb-4QIsac-11QM." In ??????: ?????? ??????? ????
      ????? ?-?. ?????? ?????? ????? [Meghillot: Studies in
      the Dead Sea Scrolls V-VI. A Festschrift for Devorah Dimant], ed. Moshe
      Bar-Asher and Emanuel Tov, *201-*210. Jerusalem: Bialik Institute and Haifa
      University Press, 2007.

      Would you risk life to take a writing exercise (as found in Cave 4) from
      Jerusalem, during seige by the Roman army, to a cave many miles away?

      One who is disinterested in evidence of six or so inkwells raises the question
      (beyond new-found interest in Shuafat): what evidence would interest? And why,
      from some posters, the differing levels of demands for evidence: quite
      demanding for Essenes not to be pushed into limbo, and yet so very lacking in
      stringency--even ignoring counter-evidence (e.g., from Josephus and from the
      non-cross-section of available books at Qumran--for the Jerusalem-library
      one-time deposit ignoring connections to the site and to multiply-attested
      Essene history?

      Stephen Goranson
      http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
      ("Out damned spot," I think, is from Macbeth not Hamlet.)
    • dastacey62
      A few responses:- 1. There is no conclusive evidence that the aqueduct system at Qumran was ever broken and the site flooded . 2. For an extensive puddle
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 2, 2008
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        A few responses:-
        1. There is no conclusive evidence that the aqueduct system at
        Qumran was ever 'broken' and the site 'flooded'.
        2. For an extensive 'puddle' at Masada see two-page spread in
        Yadin's 'Masada' pp 32-33
        3. Ostraca (writing on clay) were found on Masada.
        4. If finding inkwells at a site is proof that it was a scribal
        school would the total absence of inkwells at a site be proof that
        its occupants could not write?
        5. I am a dirt archaeologist, not a scroll scholar nor a Classicist,
        but as far as I understand it no classical author links 'Essenes'
        directly with the site of Qumran. Are not Essenes, rather, associated
        with the general area northwest of the Dead Sea? In more recent times
        this area was associated with the Ta'amireh Bedouin tribe, who would
        claim territorial right to graze their flocks there. Philo associated
        Essenes with, inter alia, shepherding. Perhaps shepherds who happened
        to be Essenes grazed their flocks in the general area?
        David Stacey
        UK


        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, goranson@... wrote:
        >
        > One possible reason for difference between Qumran and Masada, in
        regard
        > to whether animal skin scrolls would survive, is that Qumran got
        flooded
        > more than Masada, because Qumran's location and sometimes-broken
        water system
        > brought more water to it, which would rot scrolls, moreso than
        Masada, which
        > was not flooded from land above it and whose water system was below
        it. Also,
        > Masada had casemate walls; Qumran not, among additional differences.
        > Again, there was writing on clay and stone found in Kh. Qumran,
        which is
        > published in Humbert and Gunneweg, Khirbet Qumran...II: etudes...
        2003. I wish
        > those posting on this subject would read that before more
        declarations. And why
        > cite declarations on Dead Sea Scrolls from some (e.g. Hirschfeld)
        who were not
        > Dead Sea Scroll scholars?
        >
        > Those interested in the tentative suggestion of Yael Olnick {also
        in English as
        > Olenick) can read her Early Roman-Period Pottery Inkwells from
        Eretz-Yisrael,"
        > Israel--People and Land I (1983-1984) 55-66 Hebrew; 10-11, English,
        on inkwell
        > types. We await full Shufat publication.
        >
        > For a review of Edna Ullmann-Margalit's book Out of the Cave, see
        amazon.com:
        > http://tinyurl.com/2z3fwn
        >
        > In many posts no one responded to the evidence in the recently-
        posted review of
        > N. Golb, Who Wrote the Scrolls that tells against his proposal.
        Plus, if these
        > were Jerusalem libraries, why are there no indications of ownership
        for
        > retrieval?
        >
        > Interestingly, Ulrich makes another three-cave scribal connection
        in:
        > Ulrich, Eugene. "Identification of a Scribe Active at Qumran:
        > 1QPsb-4QIsac-11QM." In ??????: ?????? ??????? ????
        > ????? ?-?. ?????? ?????? ????? [Meghillot: Studies in
        > the Dead Sea Scrolls V-VI. A Festschrift for Devorah Dimant], ed.
        Moshe
        > Bar-Asher and Emanuel Tov, *201-*210. Jerusalem: Bialik Institute
        and Haifa
        > University Press, 2007.
        >
        > Would you risk life to take a writing exercise (as found in Cave 4)
        from
        > Jerusalem, during seige by the Roman army, to a cave many miles
        away?
        >
        > One who is disinterested in evidence of six or so inkwells raises
        the question
        > (beyond new-found interest in Shuafat): what evidence would
        interest? And why,
        > from some posters, the differing levels of demands for evidence:
        quite
        > demanding for Essenes not to be pushed into limbo, and yet so very
        lacking in
        > stringency--even ignoring counter-evidence (e.g., from Josephus and
        from the
        > non-cross-section of available books at Qumran--for the Jerusalem-
        library
        > one-time deposit ignoring connections to the site and to multiply-
        attested
        > Essene history?
        >
        > Stephen Goranson
        > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
        > ("Out damned spot," I think, is from Macbeth not Hamlet.)
        >
      • kessler_paul
        I m a bit surprised that in your list of blinkered scholars you didn t include one who thinks Essenes lived in Qumran, another who thinks Sadducees lived
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 2, 2008
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          I'm a bit surprised that in your list of "blinkered scholars" you
          didn't include one who thinks Essenes lived in Qumran, another who
          thinks Sadducees lived there, another who thinks Essenes lived not
          in, but around the site; one who thinks sectarians wrote some of the
          scrolls there, another who thinks they wrote most of the scrolls
          there, and another who thinks they wrote all of the scrolls there;
          one who thinks the site was inhabited by celibate Essenes as per
          Pliny, another who thinks the Essenes who lived there married despite
          Pliny; one who thinks the word "Damascus" in one of the scrolls
          refers to Qumran, another who disagrees with that; one who thinks the
          Essenes took over a military fortress and another who thinks Qumran
          could never have been a military fortress because, according to her
          but not others, "poor" dishes were found there.

          Paul Kessler (New York, NY)


          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "B.E.Colless" <briancolless@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Let me put it this way. One blinkered scholar finds evidence of
          > pottery-manufacture, another senses perfume-making, another detects
          farming,
          > another notices military activity [remember the war scroll?] on the
          Qumran
          > site, and each thinks they have discovered the full truth about the
          place.
          >
          > Have you heard the one about the blind sages who examined the
          various parts
          > of an elephant (tail, trunk, ear, leg. etc) and each thought he had
          > comprehended the essence of the animal?
          >
          > Kia ora! (Maaori for "Get a life")
          >
          > Brian Colless
          > Massey University, New Zealand
          >
          > http://cryptcracker.blogspot.com
          > http://collesseum.googlepages.com
          >
          > > From: goranson@...
          > > Reply-To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          > > Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 10:22:32 -0500
          > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: [ANE-2] Qumran inkwells and other facts
          > >
          > > It is not true (based on available reports) that more inkwells
          were found at
          > > Shuafat than Qumran. I am a slow typist. Need I retype information
          > > every time a
          > > false claim is made? This list does have an archives with details
          and
          > > bibliography on inkwells among other things. And the Shuafat,
          mold-made
          > > inkwells may be Roman rather than Jewish (at least, Yael Olnick
          has suggested
          > > or raised the question of this distinction of types), and they
          are reportedly
          > > post second temple period. If we say for conversation sake, that
          Qumran is one
          > > of the two most inkwell-rich sites in a wide area and a long
          time, these are
          > > still scribal tools. There is no reason to expect writing on
          skin, exposed to
          > > elements, fire, and water to survive; such writing surfaces
          survived in caves,
          > > some enterable only through the Khirbeh. There was writing in
          Qumran on
          > > pottery
          > > and stone (published in Humbert and Gunneweg). Qumran is still
          where Pliny's
          > > second temple period source (and probably Dio [see Dead Sea
          Discoveries
          > > forthcoming] and Solinus) said Essenes lived. Many of the scrolls
          (S, MMT,
          > > pesharim etc.) are Essene. Some wish not to accept such facts.
          And there is
          > > more information available to historians on Essenes of Qumran and
          elsewhere.
          > >
          > > Stephen Goranson
          > > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
          > > "Jannaeus, His Brother Absalom, and Judah the Essene"
          > > Lincoln: "we cannot escape history"
          > >
          > >
          >
        • kessler_paul
          On northwest of the Dead Sea : Pliny says merely that they are a throng of refugees living among the palm trees near the Dead Sea, and that that below
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 2, 2008
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            On "northwest of the Dead Sea": Pliny says merely that they are
            a "throng of refugees" living among the palm trees near the Dead Sea,
            and that that "below them" (infra hos) lies En Gedi, "now, like
            Jerusalem, an ash-heap." This certainly does not seem to correspond
            to a military fortress/commercial-industrial site, and many places
            closer to En Gedi come to mind (including the the site in the hills
            above En Gedi excavated by Hirschfeld).

            Paul Kessler (NY)

            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "dastacey62" <DAVID.STACEY63@...> wrote:
            >
            > A few responses:-
            > 1. There is no conclusive evidence that the aqueduct system at
            > Qumran was ever 'broken' and the site 'flooded'.
            > 2. For an extensive 'puddle' at Masada see two-page spread in
            > Yadin's 'Masada' pp 32-33
            > 3. Ostraca (writing on clay) were found on Masada.
            > 4. If finding inkwells at a site is proof that it was a scribal
            > school would the total absence of inkwells at a site be proof that
            > its occupants could not write?
            > 5. I am a dirt archaeologist, not a scroll scholar nor a
            Classicist,
            > but as far as I understand it no classical author links 'Essenes'
            > directly with the site of Qumran. Are not Essenes, rather,
            associated
            > with the general area northwest of the Dead Sea? In more recent
            times
            > this area was associated with the Ta'amireh Bedouin tribe, who
            would
            > claim territorial right to graze their flocks there. Philo
            associated
            > Essenes with, inter alia, shepherding. Perhaps shepherds who
            happened
            > to be Essenes grazed their flocks in the general area?
            > David Stacey
            > UK
            >
            >
            > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, goranson@ wrote:
            > >
            > > One possible reason for difference between Qumran and Masada, in
            > regard
            > > to whether animal skin scrolls would survive, is that Qumran got
            > flooded
            > > more than Masada, because Qumran's location and sometimes-broken
            > water system
            > > brought more water to it, which would rot scrolls, moreso than
            > Masada, which
            > > was not flooded from land above it and whose water system was
            below
            > it. Also,
            > > Masada had casemate walls; Qumran not, among additional
            differences.
            > > Again, there was writing on clay and stone found in Kh. Qumran,
            > which is
            > > published in Humbert and Gunneweg, Khirbet Qumran...II: etudes...
            > 2003. I wish
            > > those posting on this subject would read that before more
            > declarations. And why
            > > cite declarations on Dead Sea Scrolls from some (e.g. Hirschfeld)
            > who were not
            > > Dead Sea Scroll scholars?
            > >
            > > Those interested in the tentative suggestion of Yael Olnick {also
            > in English as
            > > Olenick) can read her Early Roman-Period Pottery Inkwells from
            > Eretz-Yisrael,"
            > > Israel--People and Land I (1983-1984) 55-66 Hebrew; 10-11,
            English,
            > on inkwell
            > > types. We await full Shufat publication.
            > >
            > > For a review of Edna Ullmann-Margalit's book Out of the Cave, see
            > amazon.com:
            > > http://tinyurl.com/2z3fwn
            > >
            > > In many posts no one responded to the evidence in the recently-
            > posted review of
            > > N. Golb, Who Wrote the Scrolls that tells against his proposal.
            > Plus, if these
            > > were Jerusalem libraries, why are there no indications of
            ownership
            > for
            > > retrieval?
            > >
            > > Interestingly, Ulrich makes another three-cave scribal connection
            > in:
            > > Ulrich, Eugene. "Identification of a Scribe Active at Qumran:
            > > 1QPsb-4QIsac-11QM." In ??????: ?????? ??????? ????
            > > ????? ?-?. ?????? ?????? ????? [Meghillot: Studies in
            > > the Dead Sea Scrolls V-VI. A Festschrift for Devorah Dimant], ed.
            > Moshe
            > > Bar-Asher and Emanuel Tov, *201-*210. Jerusalem: Bialik Institute
            > and Haifa
            > > University Press, 2007.
            > >
            > > Would you risk life to take a writing exercise (as found in Cave
            4)
            > from
            > > Jerusalem, during seige by the Roman army, to a cave many miles
            > away?
            > >
            > > One who is disinterested in evidence of six or so inkwells raises
            > the question
            > > (beyond new-found interest in Shuafat): what evidence would
            > interest? And why,
            > > from some posters, the differing levels of demands for evidence:
            > quite
            > > demanding for Essenes not to be pushed into limbo, and yet so
            very
            > lacking in
            > > stringency--even ignoring counter-evidence (e.g., from Josephus
            and
            > from the
            > > non-cross-section of available books at Qumran--for the Jerusalem-
            > library
            > > one-time deposit ignoring connections to the site and to multiply-
            > attested
            > > Essene history?
            > >
            > > Stephen Goranson
            > > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
            > > ("Out damned spot," I think, is from Macbeth not Hamlet.)
            > >
            >
          • kessler_paul
            I for one didn t bother responding to the evidence in your review of Golb because it just seems like a rehash of claims and invective, and certainly not
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 2, 2008
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              I for one didn't bother responding to the "evidence" in your review
              of Golb because it just seems like a rehash of claims and invective,
              and certainly not "evidence." Your method is to set up a straw horse
              and beat on it, ignoring evidence that does (as recognized in the
              Church History review of Golb which you ignore) favor the Jerusalem
              theory, and presupposing the truth of the Qumran-Essene theory
              despite advances in research to the contrary. The consequences of
              this kind of discourse can be seen on the Amazon.com site itself,
              where someone did respond to your review. See
              http://tinyurl.com/2n89a9

              Paul Kessler (NY)


              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, goranson@... wrote:
              >
              > One possible reason for difference between Qumran and Masada, in
              regard
              > to whether animal skin scrolls would survive, is that Qumran got
              flooded
              > more than Masada, because Qumran's location and sometimes-broken
              water system
              > brought more water to it, which would rot scrolls, moreso than
              Masada, which
              > was not flooded from land above it and whose water system was below
              it. Also,
              > Masada had casemate walls; Qumran not, among additional differences.
              > Again, there was writing on clay and stone found in Kh. Qumran,
              which is
              > published in Humbert and Gunneweg, Khirbet Qumran...II: etudes...
              2003. I wish
              > those posting on this subject would read that before more
              declarations. And why
              > cite declarations on Dead Sea Scrolls from some (e.g. Hirschfeld)
              who were not
              > Dead Sea Scroll scholars?
              >
              > Those interested in the tentative suggestion of Yael Olnick {also
              in English as
              > Olenick) can read her Early Roman-Period Pottery Inkwells from
              Eretz-Yisrael,"
              > Israel--People and Land I (1983-1984) 55-66 Hebrew; 10-11, English,
              on inkwell
              > types. We await full Shufat publication.
              >
              > For a review of Edna Ullmann-Margalit's book Out of the Cave, see
              amazon.com:
              > http://tinyurl.com/2z3fwn
              >
              > In many posts no one responded to the evidence in the recently-
              posted review of
              > N. Golb, Who Wrote the Scrolls that tells against his proposal.
              Plus, if these
              > were Jerusalem libraries, why are there no indications of ownership
              for
              > retrieval?
              >
              > Interestingly, Ulrich makes another three-cave scribal connection
              in:
              > Ulrich, Eugene. "Identification of a Scribe Active at Qumran:
              > 1QPsb-4QIsac-11QM." In ??????: ?????? ??????? ????
              > ????? ?-?. ?????? ?????? ????? [Meghillot: Studies in
              > the Dead Sea Scrolls V-VI. A Festschrift for Devorah Dimant], ed.
              Moshe
              > Bar-Asher and Emanuel Tov, *201-*210. Jerusalem: Bialik Institute
              and Haifa
              > University Press, 2007.
              >
              > Would you risk life to take a writing exercise (as found in Cave 4)
              from
              > Jerusalem, during seige by the Roman army, to a cave many miles
              away?
              >
              > One who is disinterested in evidence of six or so inkwells raises
              the question
              > (beyond new-found interest in Shuafat): what evidence would
              interest? And why,
              > from some posters, the differing levels of demands for evidence:
              quite
              > demanding for Essenes not to be pushed into limbo, and yet so very
              lacking in
              > stringency--even ignoring counter-evidence (e.g., from Josephus and
              from the
              > non-cross-section of available books at Qumran--for the Jerusalem-
              library
              > one-time deposit ignoring connections to the site and to multiply-
              attested
              > Essene history?
              >
              > Stephen Goranson
              > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
              > ("Out damned spot," I think, is from Macbeth not Hamlet.)
              >
            • dastacey62
              As far as I understand it, the Essenes were ordinary guys who espoused a particular philosophy of Judaism. They lived in small towns and villages throughout
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 3, 2008
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                As far as I understand it, the Essenes were ordinary guys who
                espoused
                a particular philosophy of Judaism. They lived in small towns and
                villages throughout Judea, were employed as agriculturalists, rural
                craftsmen, shepherds, bee-keepers etc and had an interest in the
                healing power of herbs.
                When, starting in the Hasmonean period, there was a rapid expansion
                in
                the growing of very high value balsam (and perhaps not quite so high
                value dates) in Jericho and Ein Gedi, there would have been a
                pressing
                need for labourers from outside, many of whom , initially at least,
                would have camped among the date palms. Some of those who were
                prepared
                to rough-it in return for certain work were as likely to have been
                Essenes, whose skills as agriculturalists and rural craftsmen would
                have been welcome, as anybody else.
                Seasonal work in Qumran , associated with the products of
                shepherding
                and local agriculture, may have been right up the Essenes street -
                they
                had the skills, and may have appreciated 'living apart' for a period
                (in the autumns of my mis-spent youth I often gathered with gypsy
                travellers and other 'outcasts' to help harvest the hops and apples
                of
                Kent. We had a symbiotic relationship with the farmers who needed us,
                our eccentricites were tolerated, we could, if we worked hard, earn
                good money, which, in my case, helped subsidise my poorly paid life
                in
                archaeology).

                Hirschfeld's 'site up in the hills' was probably only occupied
                seasonally when the crops growing in nearby, relatively remote,
                terraced
                fields would have been daily targeted by ibex and hyrax who could
                easily destroy a year's work overnight. Whether these animal scarers
                were youngsters from the village or passing Essene 'refugees' we
                shall
                never know. (My grandfather left school at age 10 and his first job
                was
                to walk the hours of daylight around corn fields with wooden clappers
                to scare the birds. I myself once spent several exhausting weeks
                camping in a cherry orchard trying, rather unsuccessfully, I might
                add,
                to discourage the birds from eating 'my' ripening cherries.)

                David Stacey
                UK


                --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "kessler_paul" <kessler_paul@...> wrote:
                >
                > On "northwest of the Dead Sea": Pliny says merely that they are
                > a "throng of refugees" living among the palm trees near the Dead
                Sea,
                > and that that "below them" (infra hos) lies En Gedi, "now, like
                > Jerusalem, an ash-heap." This certainly does not seem to
                correspond
                > to a military fortress/commercial-industrial site, and many places
                > closer to En Gedi come to mind (including the the site in the hills
                > above En Gedi excavated by Hirschfeld).
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