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Re: [ANE-2] Re: Qumran inkwells and other facts and inkwells

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  • George F Somsel
    Thank you for your response. While one might wonder how much protection the debris under which the scrolls were found at Masada would have provided and one
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 2, 2008
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      Thank you for your response. While one might wonder how much protection the debris under which the scrolls were found at Masada would have provided and one might also wonder whether the problem with not finding any such evidence at Qumran was do to its not having been covered with debris, it does quite measurably strenghthen the question regarding why parchment was not found at Qumran which was not in the caves. That seems to be one for the non-scriptorium view.

      george
      gfsomsel

      Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
      learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
      defend the truth till death.

      - Jan Hus
      _________



      ----- Original Message ----
      From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2008 7:56:10 AM
      Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Qumran inkwells and other facts and inkwells

      One of the scrolls was found in a pit beneath the rear room of the
      synagogue (not in a jar); others were found beneath about 2m. of
      debris (also not in jars). So, if at Masaada why not at Qumran?

      David Stacey
      UK
      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@.. .> wrote:
      >
      > Is anyone aware of the conditions under which the scrolls from
      Masada were found? It would potentially make considerable difference
      whether they were put somewhere for safe keeping or had been exposed
      to the elements. It must be remembered that the finds at Qumran were
      in jars inside caves. I think the argument was that only the scrolls
      placed in jars and secreted in the caves survived to be discovered.
      >
      > Yes, inkwells would have been needed anywhere correspondence was
      carried out, but it is only logical that when a numerically greater
      number of persons are involved in correspondence or in the production
      of any writings that there would be a greater need for inkwells. I
      hardly think that each scribe could be expected to walk across the
      room to another scribe's position to dip his brush. I'm really
      wondering, however, why you would resort to a hypothesis that the
      Romans may have introduced some of the inkwells to the site. In that
      case, perhaps the few inkwells found at other sites were introduced
      by the Romans as well. The argument that the Romans may have
      introduced them makes no sense.
      >
      > george
      > gfsomsel
      >
      > Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
      > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
      > defend the truth till death.
      >
      > - Jan Hus
      > _________
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message ----
      > From: kessler_paul <kessler_paul@ ...>
      > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
      > Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2008 2:28:45 AM
      > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Qumran inkwells and other facts and inkwells
      >
      > Roman inkwells = way of avoiding fact that more inkwells were
      > found "together on a floor" at Shuafat than in the rubble De Vaux
      > identified as the remains of a "scriptorium" at Qumran.
      >
      > The problem with this claim, of course, is that some of the
      inkwells
      > found at Qumran may themselves have been brought there by Roman
      > soldiers; and, in fact, it's not clear if any of the other "Qumran"
      > inkwells beyond those found by De Vaux really were found at Qumran
      > (want to make a buck? sell an "inkwell from Qumran" on the
      > antiquities market).
      >
      > In general, inkwells have been dug up in many a site in Israel
      > (including villas in Jerusalem) and Jordan; ink was of course
      needed
      > for military and commercial correspondence, drafting of contracts,
      > etc. Whether it's two, three, four, five or six makes no difference
      > whatsover -- that's simply a rhetorical argument on Goranson's part.
      >
      > As for Goranson's argument about how the "elements" may have
      > destroyed every single fragment of parchment that one would have
      > expected to find in the Qumran site (despite the fact that scrolls
      > were dug up at Masada despite the elements there), this is again
      pure
      > speculation rather than a piece of evidence demonstrating any
      organic
      > connection between the scrolls found in the caves and the site.
      >
      > Defenders of the Essene theory consistently appeal to such round-
      > about arguments to escape from the simple fact that they don't have
      > any evidence sectarians lived at Qumran or wrote scrolls there.
      >
      > Paul Kessler (New York, NY)
      >
      > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, Eliot Braun <ebraun@> wrote:
      > >
      > > For more than 30 years I've been struggling with the problem of
      > trying to identify ethnicity in populations through artifactual
      > evidence. I'm intrigued by this distinction in inkwells. Please
      > explain what is a "Jewish" inkwell and what is a "Roman inkwell"?
      > >
      > > Eliot Braun, Ph D
      > > Ha-oren 12, Har Adar 90836, Israel
      > > Tel. 972-2-5345687 / 972-2-5704189
      > > Cell: 972-50-223 1096
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: goranson@
      > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
      > > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 5:22 PM
      > > Subject: [ANE-2] Qumran inkwells and other facts
      > >
      > >
      > > It is not true (based on available reports) that more inkwells
      > were found at
      > > Shuafat than Qumran. I am a slow typist. Need I retype
      > information
      > > every time a
      > > false claim is made? This list does have an archives with details
      > and
      > > bibliography on inkwells among other things. And the Shuafat,
      > mold-made
      > > inkwells may be Roman rather than Jewish (at least, Yael Olnick
      > has suggested
      > > or raised the question of this distinction of types), and they
      > are reportedly
      > > post second temple period. If we say for conversation sake, that
      > Qumran is one
      > > of the two most inkwell-rich sites in a wide area and a long
      > time, these are
      > > still scribal tools. There is no reason to expect writing on
      > skin, exposed to
      > > elements, fire, and water to survive; such writing surfaces
      > survived in caves,
      > > some enterable only through the Khirbeh. There was writing in
      > Qumran on
      > > pottery
      > > and stone (published in Humbert and Gunneweg). Qumran is still
      > where Pliny's
      > > second temple period source (and probably Dio [see Dead Sea
      > Discoveries
      > > forthcoming] and Solinus) said Essenes lived. Many of the scrolls
      > (S, MMT,
      > > pesharim etc.) are Essene. Some wish not to accept such facts.
      > And there is
      > > more information available to historians on Essenes of Qumran and
      > elsewhere.
      > >
      > > Stephen Goranson
      > > http://www.duke. edu/~goranson
      > > "Jannaeus, His Brother Absalom, and Judah the Essene"
      > > Lincoln: "we cannot escape history".
      >
      >
      >
      >
      ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
      ____________ __
      > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
      > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
      http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >





      ____________________________________________________________________________________
      Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
      http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • kessler_paul
      (1) The Masada scrolls were not stored in jars, but were found simply in the form of fragments here and there in the excavated ground. (2) Only a small portion
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 2, 2008
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        (1) The Masada scrolls were not stored in jars, but were found simply
        in the form of fragments here and there in the excavated ground.

        (2) Only a small portion of the Dead Sea Scrolls (those in cave 1)
        were (apparently) stored in jars, most of them were either buried (as
        in Cave 4) or simply left unprotected (possibly in cloth covers which
        eventually disintegrated) in the caves. So much for Goranson's
        stunning point about the elements.

        (3) I did not resort to the argument about Roman inkwells. Goranson
        resorted to that argument with respect to the Shuafat inkwells, and I
        responded (in part) by pointing out that one could do the same for
        Qumran. Pursuant to your argument, since five inkwells were
        found "together on a floor" at Shuafat, there must have been scribes
        and a scriptorium there, right on that floor! But no one has ever
        argued that there was. (Besides which, as someone else has pointed
        out, pottery was produced at Qumran, why not inkwells too?)

        Paul Kessler (New York, NY)


        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
        >
        > Is anyone aware of the conditions under which the scrolls from
        Masada were found? It would potentially make considerable difference
        whether they were put somewhere for safe keeping or had been exposed
        to the elements. It must be remembered that the finds at Qumran were
        in jars inside caves. I think the argument was that only the scrolls
        placed in jars and secreted in the caves survived to be discovered.
        >
        > Yes, inkwells would have been needed anywhere correspondence was
        carried out, but it is only logical that when a numerically greater
        number of persons are involved in correspondence or in the production
        of any writings that there would be a greater need for inkwells. I
        hardly think that each scribe could be expected to walk across the
        room to another scribe's position to dip his brush. I'm really
        wondering, however, why you would resort to a hypothesis that the
        Romans may have introduced some of the inkwells to the site. In that
        case, perhaps the few inkwells found at other sites were introduced
        by the Romans as well. The argument that the Romans may have
        introduced them makes no sense.
        >
        > george
        > gfsomsel
        >
        > Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
        > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
        > defend the truth till death.
        >
        > - Jan Hus
        > _________
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message ----
        > From: kessler_paul <kessler_paul@...>
        > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2008 2:28:45 AM
        > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Qumran inkwells and other facts and inkwells
        >
        > Roman inkwells = way of avoiding fact that more inkwells were
        > found "together on a floor" at Shuafat than in the rubble De Vaux
        > identified as the remains of a "scriptorium" at Qumran.
        >
        > The problem with this claim, of course, is that some of the
        inkwells
        > found at Qumran may themselves have been brought there by Roman
        > soldiers; and, in fact, it's not clear if any of the other "Qumran"
        > inkwells beyond those found by De Vaux really were found at Qumran
        > (want to make a buck? sell an "inkwell from Qumran" on the
        > antiquities market).
        >
        > In general, inkwells have been dug up in many a site in Israel
        > (including villas in Jerusalem) and Jordan; ink was of course
        needed
        > for military and commercial correspondence, drafting of contracts,
        > etc. Whether it's two, three, four, five or six makes no difference
        > whatsover -- that's simply a rhetorical argument on Goranson's part.
        >
        > As for Goranson's argument about how the "elements" may have
        > destroyed every single fragment of parchment that one would have
        > expected to find in the Qumran site (despite the fact that scrolls
        > were dug up at Masada despite the elements there), this is again
        pure
        > speculation rather than a piece of evidence demonstrating any
        organic
        > connection between the scrolls found in the caves and the site.
        >
        > Defenders of the Essene theory consistently appeal to such round-
        > about arguments to escape from the simple fact that they don't have
        > any evidence sectarians lived at Qumran or wrote scrolls there.
        >
        > Paul Kessler (New York, NY)
        >
        > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, Eliot Braun <ebraun@> wrote:
        > >
        > > For more than 30 years I've been struggling with the problem of
        > trying to identify ethnicity in populations through artifactual
        > evidence. I'm intrigued by this distinction in inkwells. Please
        > explain what is a "Jewish" inkwell and what is a "Roman inkwell"?
        > >
        > > Eliot Braun, Ph D
        > > Ha-oren 12, Har Adar 90836, Israel
        > > Tel. 972-2-5345687 / 972-2-5704189
        > > Cell: 972-50-223 1096
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: goranson@
        > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
        > > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 5:22 PM
        > > Subject: [ANE-2] Qumran inkwells and other facts
        > >
        > >
        > > It is not true (based on available reports) that more inkwells
        > were found at
        > > Shuafat than Qumran. I am a slow typist. Need I retype
        > information
        > > every time a
        > > false claim is made? This list does have an archives with details
        > and
        > > bibliography on inkwells among other things. And the Shuafat,
        > mold-made
        > > inkwells may be Roman rather than Jewish (at least, Yael Olnick
        > has suggested
        > > or raised the question of this distinction of types), and they
        > are reportedly
        > > post second temple period. If we say for conversation sake, that
        > Qumran is one
        > > of the two most inkwell-rich sites in a wide area and a long
        > time, these are
        > > still scribal tools. There is no reason to expect writing on
        > skin, exposed to
        > > elements, fire, and water to survive; such writing surfaces
        > survived in caves,
        > > some enterable only through the Khirbeh. There was writing in
        > Qumran on
        > > pottery
        > > and stone (published in Humbert and Gunneweg). Qumran is still
        > where Pliny's
        > > second temple period source (and probably Dio [see Dead Sea
        > Discoveries
        > > forthcoming] and Solinus) said Essenes lived. Many of the scrolls
        > (S, MMT,
        > > pesharim etc.) are Essene. Some wish not to accept such facts.
        > And there is
        > > more information available to historians on Essenes of Qumran and
        > elsewhere.
        > >
        > > Stephen Goranson
        > > http://www.duke edu/~goranson
        > > "Jannaeus, His Brother Absalom, and Judah the Essene"
        > > Lincoln: "we cannot escape history".
        >
        >
        >
        >
        ______________________________________________________________________
        ______________
        > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
        > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
        http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • kessler_paul
        George, it s interesting to see that you re amenable to reason on this issue. Incidentally, I see you have also expressed some interesting views in the
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 2, 2008
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          George, it's interesting to see that you're amenable to reason on
          this issue. Incidentally, I see you have also expressed some
          interesting views in the comments to this article:
          http://tinyurl.com/ypfgem

          Paul Kessler (New York, NY)


          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
          >
          > Thank you for your response. While one might wonder how much
          protection the debris under which the scrolls were found at Masada
          would have provided and one might also wonder whether the problem
          with not finding any such evidence at Qumran was do to its not having
          been covered with debris, it does quite measurably strenghthen the
          question regarding why parchment was not found at Qumran which was
          not in the caves. That seems to be one for the non-scriptorium
          view.
          >
          > george
          > gfsomsel
          >
          > Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
          > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
          > defend the truth till death.
          >
          > - Jan Hus
          > _________
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message ----
          > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
          > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2008 7:56:10 AM
          > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Qumran inkwells and other facts and inkwells
          >
          > One of the scrolls was found in a pit beneath the rear room of the
          > synagogue (not in a jar); others were found beneath about 2m. of
          > debris (also not in jars). So, if at Masaada why not at Qumran?
          >
          > David Stacey
          > UK
          > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@ .> wrote:
          > >
          > > Is anyone aware of the conditions under which the scrolls from
          > Masada were found? It would potentially make considerable
          difference
          > whether they were put somewhere for safe keeping or had been
          exposed
          > to the elements. It must be remembered that the finds at Qumran
          were
          > in jars inside caves. I think the argument was that only the
          scrolls
          > placed in jars and secreted in the caves survived to be discovered.
          > >
          > > Yes, inkwells would have been needed anywhere correspondence was
          > carried out, but it is only logical that when a numerically greater
          > number of persons are involved in correspondence or in the
          production
          > of any writings that there would be a greater need for inkwells. I
          > hardly think that each scribe could be expected to walk across the
          > room to another scribe's position to dip his brush. I'm really
          > wondering, however, why you would resort to a hypothesis that the
          > Romans may have introduced some of the inkwells to the site. In
          that
          > case, perhaps the few inkwells found at other sites were introduced
          > by the Romans as well. The argument that the Romans may have
          > introduced them makes no sense.
          > >
          > > george
          > > gfsomsel
          > >
          > > Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
          > > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
          > > defend the truth till death.
          > >
          > > - Jan Hus
          > > _________
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message ----
          > > From: kessler_paul <kessler_paul@ ...>
          > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
          > > Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2008 2:28:45 AM
          > > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Qumran inkwells and other facts and inkwells
          > >
          > > Roman inkwells = way of avoiding fact that more inkwells were
          > > found "together on a floor" at Shuafat than in the rubble De Vaux
          > > identified as the remains of a "scriptorium" at Qumran.
          > >
          > > The problem with this claim, of course, is that some of the
          > inkwells
          > > found at Qumran may themselves have been brought there by Roman
          > > soldiers; and, in fact, it's not clear if any of the
          other "Qumran"
          > > inkwells beyond those found by De Vaux really were found at
          Qumran
          > > (want to make a buck? sell an "inkwell from Qumran" on the
          > > antiquities market).
          > >
          > > In general, inkwells have been dug up in many a site in Israel
          > > (including villas in Jerusalem) and Jordan; ink was of course
          > needed
          > > for military and commercial correspondence, drafting of
          contracts,
          > > etc. Whether it's two, three, four, five or six makes no
          difference
          > > whatsover -- that's simply a rhetorical argument on Goranson's
          part.
          > >
          > > As for Goranson's argument about how the "elements" may have
          > > destroyed every single fragment of parchment that one would have
          > > expected to find in the Qumran site (despite the fact that
          scrolls
          > > were dug up at Masada despite the elements there), this is again
          > pure
          > > speculation rather than a piece of evidence demonstrating any
          > organic
          > > connection between the scrolls found in the caves and the site.
          > >
          > > Defenders of the Essene theory consistently appeal to such round-
          > > about arguments to escape from the simple fact that they don't
          have
          > > any evidence sectarians lived at Qumran or wrote scrolls there.
          > >
          > > Paul Kessler (New York, NY)
          > >
          > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, Eliot Braun <ebraun@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > For more than 30 years I've been struggling with the problem of
          > > trying to identify ethnicity in populations through artifactual
          > > evidence. I'm intrigued by this distinction in inkwells. Please
          > > explain what is a "Jewish" inkwell and what is a "Roman inkwell"?
          > > >
          > > > Eliot Braun, Ph D
          > > > Ha-oren 12, Har Adar 90836, Israel
          > > > Tel. 972-2-5345687 / 972-2-5704189
          > > > Cell: 972-50-223 1096
          > > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > > From: goranson@
          > > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
          > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 5:22 PM
          > > > Subject: [ANE-2] Qumran inkwells and other facts
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > It is not true (based on available reports) that more inkwells
          > > were found at
          > > > Shuafat than Qumran. I am a slow typist. Need I retype
          > > information
          > > > every time a
          > > > false claim is made? This list does have an archives with
          details
          > > and
          > > > bibliography on inkwells among other things. And the Shuafat,
          > > mold-made
          > > > inkwells may be Roman rather than Jewish (at least, Yael Olnick
          > > has suggested
          > > > or raised the question of this distinction of types), and they
          > > are reportedly
          > > > post second temple period. If we say for conversation sake,
          that
          > > Qumran is one
          > > > of the two most inkwell-rich sites in a wide area and a long
          > > time, these are
          > > > still scribal tools. There is no reason to expect writing on
          > > skin, exposed to
          > > > elements, fire, and water to survive; such writing surfaces
          > > survived in caves,
          > > > some enterable only through the Khirbeh. There was writing in
          > > Qumran on
          > > > pottery
          > > > and stone (published in Humbert and Gunneweg). Qumran is still
          > > where Pliny's
          > > > second temple period source (and probably Dio [see Dead Sea
          > > Discoveries
          > > > forthcoming] and Solinus) said Essenes lived. Many of the
          scrolls
          > > (S, MMT,
          > > > pesharim etc.) are Essene. Some wish not to accept such facts.
          > > And there is
          > > > more information available to historians on Essenes of Qumran
          and
          > > elsewhere.
          > > >
          > > > Stephen Goranson
          > > > http://www.duke. edu/~goranson
          > > > "Jannaeus, His Brother Absalom, and Judah the Essene"
          > > > Lincoln: "we cannot escape history".
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
          > ____________ __
          > > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
          > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
          > http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category=
          shopping
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          ______________________________________________________________________
          ______________
          > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
          > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • dwashbur@nyx.net
          ... Only a few of the scrolls found near Qumran (not at Qumran) were in jars. The majority were just tossed in there, seemingly helter-skelter as if there was
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 2, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            On 2 Jan 2008 at 2:41, George F Somsel wrote:

            > Is anyone aware of the conditions under which the scrolls from Masada
            > were found? It would potentially make considerable difference whether
            > they were put somewhere for safe keeping or had been exposed to the
            > elements. It must be remembered that the finds at Qumran were in jars
            > inside caves. I think the argument was that only the scrolls placed in
            > jars and secreted in the caves survived to be discovered.

            Only a few of the scrolls found near Qumran (not at Qumran) were in jars. The majority
            were just tossed in there, seemingly helter-skelter as if there was no concern for their
            preservation. This is particularly the case with cave 4, where the bulk of scrolls were
            discovered tossed all over the floor and covered in blown-in dirt, bat guano, and who knows
            what else.

            Dave Washburn
            As a French hippie might say, "Je ne creuse pas!"
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