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Re: [ANE-2] Qumran inkwells and other facts and inkwells

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  • Eliot Braun
    For more than 30 years I ve been struggling with the problem of trying to identify ethnicity in populations through artifactual evidence. I m intrigued by this
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 1, 2008
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      For more than 30 years I've been struggling with the problem of trying to identify ethnicity in populations through artifactual evidence. I'm intrigued by this distinction in inkwells. Please explain what is a "Jewish" inkwell and what is a "Roman inkwell"?

      Eliot Braun, Ph D
      Ha-oren 12, Har Adar 90836, Israel
      Tel. 972-2-5345687 / 972-2-5704189
      Cell: 972-50-223 1096
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: goranson@...
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 5:22 PM
      Subject: [ANE-2] Qumran inkwells and other facts


      It is not true (based on available reports) that more inkwells were found at
      Shuafat than Qumran. I am a slow typist. Need I retype information
      every time a
      false claim is made? This list does have an archives with details and
      bibliography on inkwells among other things. And the Shuafat, mold-made
      inkwells may be Roman rather than Jewish (at least, Yael Olnick has suggested
      or raised the question of this distinction of types), and they are reportedly
      post second temple period. If we say for conversation sake, that Qumran is one
      of the two most inkwell-rich sites in a wide area and a long time, these are
      still scribal tools. There is no reason to expect writing on skin, exposed to
      elements, fire, and water to survive; such writing surfaces survived in caves,
      some enterable only through the Khirbeh. There was writing in Qumran on
      pottery
      and stone (published in Humbert and Gunneweg). Qumran is still where Pliny's
      second temple period source (and probably Dio [see Dead Sea Discoveries
      forthcoming] and Solinus) said Essenes lived. Many of the scrolls (S, MMT,
      pesharim etc.) are Essene. Some wish not to accept such facts. And there is
      more information available to historians on Essenes of Qumran and elsewhere.

      Stephen Goranson
      http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
      "Jannaeus, His Brother Absalom, and Judah the Essene"
      Lincoln: "we cannot escape history"






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • kessler_paul
      Roman inkwells = way of avoiding fact that more inkwells were found together on a floor at Shuafat than in the rubble De Vaux identified as the remains of a
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 1, 2008
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        Roman inkwells = way of avoiding fact that more inkwells were
        found "together on a floor" at Shuafat than in the rubble De Vaux
        identified as the remains of a "scriptorium" at Qumran.

        The problem with this claim, of course, is that some of the inkwells
        found at Qumran may themselves have been brought there by Roman
        soldiers; and, in fact, it's not clear if any of the other "Qumran"
        inkwells beyond those found by De Vaux really were found at Qumran
        (want to make a buck? sell an "inkwell from Qumran" on the
        antiquities market).

        In general, inkwells have been dug up in many a site in Israel
        (including villas in Jerusalem) and Jordan; ink was of course needed
        for military and commercial correspondence, drafting of contracts,
        etc. Whether it's two, three, four, five or six makes no difference
        whatsover -- that's simply a rhetorical argument on Goranson's part.

        As for Goranson's argument about how the "elements" may have
        destroyed every single fragment of parchment that one would have
        expected to find in the Qumran site (despite the fact that scrolls
        were dug up at Masada despite the elements there), this is again pure
        speculation rather than a piece of evidence demonstrating any organic
        connection between the scrolls found in the caves and the site.

        Defenders of the Essene theory consistently appeal to such round-
        about arguments to escape from the simple fact that they don't have
        any evidence sectarians lived at Qumran or wrote scrolls there.

        Paul Kessler (New York, NY)


        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Eliot Braun <ebraun@...> wrote:
        >
        > For more than 30 years I've been struggling with the problem of
        trying to identify ethnicity in populations through artifactual
        evidence. I'm intrigued by this distinction in inkwells. Please
        explain what is a "Jewish" inkwell and what is a "Roman inkwell"?
        >
        > Eliot Braun, Ph D
        > Ha-oren 12, Har Adar 90836, Israel
        > Tel. 972-2-5345687 / 972-2-5704189
        > Cell: 972-50-223 1096
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: goranson@...
        > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 5:22 PM
        > Subject: [ANE-2] Qumran inkwells and other facts
        >
        >
        > It is not true (based on available reports) that more inkwells
        were found at
        > Shuafat than Qumran. I am a slow typist. Need I retype
        information
        > every time a
        > false claim is made? This list does have an archives with details
        and
        > bibliography on inkwells among other things. And the Shuafat,
        mold-made
        > inkwells may be Roman rather than Jewish (at least, Yael Olnick
        has suggested
        > or raised the question of this distinction of types), and they
        are reportedly
        > post second temple period. If we say for conversation sake, that
        Qumran is one
        > of the two most inkwell-rich sites in a wide area and a long
        time, these are
        > still scribal tools. There is no reason to expect writing on
        skin, exposed to
        > elements, fire, and water to survive; such writing surfaces
        survived in caves,
        > some enterable only through the Khirbeh. There was writing in
        Qumran on
        > pottery
        > and stone (published in Humbert and Gunneweg). Qumran is still
        where Pliny's
        > second temple period source (and probably Dio [see Dead Sea
        Discoveries
        > forthcoming] and Solinus) said Essenes lived. Many of the scrolls
        (S, MMT,
        > pesharim etc.) are Essene. Some wish not to accept such facts.
        And there is
        > more information available to historians on Essenes of Qumran and
        elsewhere.
        >
        > Stephen Goranson
        > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
        > "Jannaeus, His Brother Absalom, and Judah the Essene"
        > Lincoln: "we cannot escape history"
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • George F Somsel
        Is anyone aware of the conditions under which the scrolls from Masada were found? It would potentially make considerable difference whether they were put
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 2, 2008
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          Is anyone aware of the conditions under which the scrolls from Masada were found? It would potentially make considerable difference whether they were put somewhere for safe keeping or had been exposed to the elements. It must be remembered that the finds at Qumran were in jars inside caves. I think the argument was that only the scrolls placed in jars and secreted in the caves survived to be discovered.

          Yes, inkwells would have been needed anywhere correspondence was carried out, but it is only logical that when a numerically greater number of persons are involved in correspondence or in the production of any writings that there would be a greater need for inkwells. I hardly think that each scribe could be expected to walk across the room to another scribe's position to dip his brush. I'm really wondering, however, why you would resort to a hypothesis that the Romans may have introduced some of the inkwells to the site. In that case, perhaps the few inkwells found at other sites were introduced by the Romans as well. The argument that the Romans may have introduced them makes no sense.

          george
          gfsomsel

          Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
          learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
          defend the truth till death.

          - Jan Hus
          _________



          ----- Original Message ----
          From: kessler_paul <kessler_paul@...>
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2008 2:28:45 AM
          Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Qumran inkwells and other facts and inkwells

          Roman inkwells = way of avoiding fact that more inkwells were
          found "together on a floor" at Shuafat than in the rubble De Vaux
          identified as the remains of a "scriptorium" at Qumran.

          The problem with this claim, of course, is that some of the inkwells
          found at Qumran may themselves have been brought there by Roman
          soldiers; and, in fact, it's not clear if any of the other "Qumran"
          inkwells beyond those found by De Vaux really were found at Qumran
          (want to make a buck? sell an "inkwell from Qumran" on the
          antiquities market).

          In general, inkwells have been dug up in many a site in Israel
          (including villas in Jerusalem) and Jordan; ink was of course needed
          for military and commercial correspondence, drafting of contracts,
          etc. Whether it's two, three, four, five or six makes no difference
          whatsover -- that's simply a rhetorical argument on Goranson's part.

          As for Goranson's argument about how the "elements" may have
          destroyed every single fragment of parchment that one would have
          expected to find in the Qumran site (despite the fact that scrolls
          were dug up at Masada despite the elements there), this is again pure
          speculation rather than a piece of evidence demonstrating any organic
          connection between the scrolls found in the caves and the site.

          Defenders of the Essene theory consistently appeal to such round-
          about arguments to escape from the simple fact that they don't have
          any evidence sectarians lived at Qumran or wrote scrolls there.

          Paul Kessler (New York, NY)

          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, Eliot Braun <ebraun@...> wrote:
          >
          > For more than 30 years I've been struggling with the problem of
          trying to identify ethnicity in populations through artifactual
          evidence. I'm intrigued by this distinction in inkwells. Please
          explain what is a "Jewish" inkwell and what is a "Roman inkwell"?
          >
          > Eliot Braun, Ph D
          > Ha-oren 12, Har Adar 90836, Israel
          > Tel. 972-2-5345687 / 972-2-5704189
          > Cell: 972-50-223 1096
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: goranson@...
          > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
          > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 5:22 PM
          > Subject: [ANE-2] Qumran inkwells and other facts
          >
          >
          > It is not true (based on available reports) that more inkwells
          were found at
          > Shuafat than Qumran. I am a slow typist. Need I retype
          information
          > every time a
          > false claim is made? This list does have an archives with details
          and
          > bibliography on inkwells among other things. And the Shuafat,
          mold-made
          > inkwells may be Roman rather than Jewish (at least, Yael Olnick
          has suggested
          > or raised the question of this distinction of types), and they
          are reportedly
          > post second temple period. If we say for conversation sake, that
          Qumran is one
          > of the two most inkwell-rich sites in a wide area and a long
          time, these are
          > still scribal tools. There is no reason to expect writing on
          skin, exposed to
          > elements, fire, and water to survive; such writing surfaces
          survived in caves,
          > some enterable only through the Khirbeh. There was writing in
          Qumran on
          > pottery
          > and stone (published in Humbert and Gunneweg). Qumran is still
          where Pliny's
          > second temple period source (and probably Dio [see Dead Sea
          Discoveries
          > forthcoming] and Solinus) said Essenes lived. Many of the scrolls
          (S, MMT,
          > pesharim etc.) are Essene. Some wish not to accept such facts.
          And there is
          > more information available to historians on Essenes of Qumran and
          elsewhere.
          >
          > Stephen Goranson
          > http://www.duke edu/~goranson
          > "Jannaeus, His Brother Absalom, and Judah the Essene"
          > Lincoln: "we cannot escape history".



          ____________________________________________________________________________________
          Looking for last minute shopping deals?
          Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • dastacey62
          One of the scrolls was found in a pit beneath the rear room of the synagogue (not in a jar); others were found beneath about 2m. of debris (also not in jars).
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 2, 2008
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            One of the scrolls was found in a pit beneath the rear room of the
            synagogue (not in a jar); others were found beneath about 2m. of
            debris (also not in jars). So, if at Masaada why not at Qumran?

            David Stacey
            UK
            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
            >
            > Is anyone aware of the conditions under which the scrolls from
            Masada were found? It would potentially make considerable difference
            whether they were put somewhere for safe keeping or had been exposed
            to the elements. It must be remembered that the finds at Qumran were
            in jars inside caves. I think the argument was that only the scrolls
            placed in jars and secreted in the caves survived to be discovered.
            >
            > Yes, inkwells would have been needed anywhere correspondence was
            carried out, but it is only logical that when a numerically greater
            number of persons are involved in correspondence or in the production
            of any writings that there would be a greater need for inkwells. I
            hardly think that each scribe could be expected to walk across the
            room to another scribe's position to dip his brush. I'm really
            wondering, however, why you would resort to a hypothesis that the
            Romans may have introduced some of the inkwells to the site. In that
            case, perhaps the few inkwells found at other sites were introduced
            by the Romans as well. The argument that the Romans may have
            introduced them makes no sense.
            >
            > george
            > gfsomsel
            >
            > Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
            > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
            > defend the truth till death.
            >
            > - Jan Hus
            > _________
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message ----
            > From: kessler_paul <kessler_paul@...>
            > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2008 2:28:45 AM
            > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Qumran inkwells and other facts and inkwells
            >
            > Roman inkwells = way of avoiding fact that more inkwells were
            > found "together on a floor" at Shuafat than in the rubble De Vaux
            > identified as the remains of a "scriptorium" at Qumran.
            >
            > The problem with this claim, of course, is that some of the
            inkwells
            > found at Qumran may themselves have been brought there by Roman
            > soldiers; and, in fact, it's not clear if any of the other "Qumran"
            > inkwells beyond those found by De Vaux really were found at Qumran
            > (want to make a buck? sell an "inkwell from Qumran" on the
            > antiquities market).
            >
            > In general, inkwells have been dug up in many a site in Israel
            > (including villas in Jerusalem) and Jordan; ink was of course
            needed
            > for military and commercial correspondence, drafting of contracts,
            > etc. Whether it's two, three, four, five or six makes no difference
            > whatsover -- that's simply a rhetorical argument on Goranson's part.
            >
            > As for Goranson's argument about how the "elements" may have
            > destroyed every single fragment of parchment that one would have
            > expected to find in the Qumran site (despite the fact that scrolls
            > were dug up at Masada despite the elements there), this is again
            pure
            > speculation rather than a piece of evidence demonstrating any
            organic
            > connection between the scrolls found in the caves and the site.
            >
            > Defenders of the Essene theory consistently appeal to such round-
            > about arguments to escape from the simple fact that they don't have
            > any evidence sectarians lived at Qumran or wrote scrolls there.
            >
            > Paul Kessler (New York, NY)
            >
            > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, Eliot Braun <ebraun@> wrote:
            > >
            > > For more than 30 years I've been struggling with the problem of
            > trying to identify ethnicity in populations through artifactual
            > evidence. I'm intrigued by this distinction in inkwells. Please
            > explain what is a "Jewish" inkwell and what is a "Roman inkwell"?
            > >
            > > Eliot Braun, Ph D
            > > Ha-oren 12, Har Adar 90836, Israel
            > > Tel. 972-2-5345687 / 972-2-5704189
            > > Cell: 972-50-223 1096
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: goranson@
            > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
            > > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 5:22 PM
            > > Subject: [ANE-2] Qumran inkwells and other facts
            > >
            > >
            > > It is not true (based on available reports) that more inkwells
            > were found at
            > > Shuafat than Qumran. I am a slow typist. Need I retype
            > information
            > > every time a
            > > false claim is made? This list does have an archives with details
            > and
            > > bibliography on inkwells among other things. And the Shuafat,
            > mold-made
            > > inkwells may be Roman rather than Jewish (at least, Yael Olnick
            > has suggested
            > > or raised the question of this distinction of types), and they
            > are reportedly
            > > post second temple period. If we say for conversation sake, that
            > Qumran is one
            > > of the two most inkwell-rich sites in a wide area and a long
            > time, these are
            > > still scribal tools. There is no reason to expect writing on
            > skin, exposed to
            > > elements, fire, and water to survive; such writing surfaces
            > survived in caves,
            > > some enterable only through the Khirbeh. There was writing in
            > Qumran on
            > > pottery
            > > and stone (published in Humbert and Gunneweg). Qumran is still
            > where Pliny's
            > > second temple period source (and probably Dio [see Dead Sea
            > Discoveries
            > > forthcoming] and Solinus) said Essenes lived. Many of the scrolls
            > (S, MMT,
            > > pesharim etc.) are Essene. Some wish not to accept such facts.
            > And there is
            > > more information available to historians on Essenes of Qumran and
            > elsewhere.
            > >
            > > Stephen Goranson
            > > http://www.duke edu/~goranson
            > > "Jannaeus, His Brother Absalom, and Judah the Essene"
            > > Lincoln: "we cannot escape history".
            >
            >
            >
            >
            ______________________________________________________________________
            ______________
            > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
            > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
            http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • George F Somsel
            Thank you for your response. While one might wonder how much protection the debris under which the scrolls were found at Masada would have provided and one
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 2, 2008
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              Thank you for your response. While one might wonder how much protection the debris under which the scrolls were found at Masada would have provided and one might also wonder whether the problem with not finding any such evidence at Qumran was do to its not having been covered with debris, it does quite measurably strenghthen the question regarding why parchment was not found at Qumran which was not in the caves. That seems to be one for the non-scriptorium view.

              george
              gfsomsel

              Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
              learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
              defend the truth till death.

              - Jan Hus
              _________



              ----- Original Message ----
              From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2008 7:56:10 AM
              Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Qumran inkwells and other facts and inkwells

              One of the scrolls was found in a pit beneath the rear room of the
              synagogue (not in a jar); others were found beneath about 2m. of
              debris (also not in jars). So, if at Masaada why not at Qumran?

              David Stacey
              UK
              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@.. .> wrote:
              >
              > Is anyone aware of the conditions under which the scrolls from
              Masada were found? It would potentially make considerable difference
              whether they were put somewhere for safe keeping or had been exposed
              to the elements. It must be remembered that the finds at Qumran were
              in jars inside caves. I think the argument was that only the scrolls
              placed in jars and secreted in the caves survived to be discovered.
              >
              > Yes, inkwells would have been needed anywhere correspondence was
              carried out, but it is only logical that when a numerically greater
              number of persons are involved in correspondence or in the production
              of any writings that there would be a greater need for inkwells. I
              hardly think that each scribe could be expected to walk across the
              room to another scribe's position to dip his brush. I'm really
              wondering, however, why you would resort to a hypothesis that the
              Romans may have introduced some of the inkwells to the site. In that
              case, perhaps the few inkwells found at other sites were introduced
              by the Romans as well. The argument that the Romans may have
              introduced them makes no sense.
              >
              > george
              > gfsomsel
              >
              > Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
              > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
              > defend the truth till death.
              >
              > - Jan Hus
              > _________
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message ----
              > From: kessler_paul <kessler_paul@ ...>
              > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
              > Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2008 2:28:45 AM
              > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Qumran inkwells and other facts and inkwells
              >
              > Roman inkwells = way of avoiding fact that more inkwells were
              > found "together on a floor" at Shuafat than in the rubble De Vaux
              > identified as the remains of a "scriptorium" at Qumran.
              >
              > The problem with this claim, of course, is that some of the
              inkwells
              > found at Qumran may themselves have been brought there by Roman
              > soldiers; and, in fact, it's not clear if any of the other "Qumran"
              > inkwells beyond those found by De Vaux really were found at Qumran
              > (want to make a buck? sell an "inkwell from Qumran" on the
              > antiquities market).
              >
              > In general, inkwells have been dug up in many a site in Israel
              > (including villas in Jerusalem) and Jordan; ink was of course
              needed
              > for military and commercial correspondence, drafting of contracts,
              > etc. Whether it's two, three, four, five or six makes no difference
              > whatsover -- that's simply a rhetorical argument on Goranson's part.
              >
              > As for Goranson's argument about how the "elements" may have
              > destroyed every single fragment of parchment that one would have
              > expected to find in the Qumran site (despite the fact that scrolls
              > were dug up at Masada despite the elements there), this is again
              pure
              > speculation rather than a piece of evidence demonstrating any
              organic
              > connection between the scrolls found in the caves and the site.
              >
              > Defenders of the Essene theory consistently appeal to such round-
              > about arguments to escape from the simple fact that they don't have
              > any evidence sectarians lived at Qumran or wrote scrolls there.
              >
              > Paul Kessler (New York, NY)
              >
              > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, Eliot Braun <ebraun@> wrote:
              > >
              > > For more than 30 years I've been struggling with the problem of
              > trying to identify ethnicity in populations through artifactual
              > evidence. I'm intrigued by this distinction in inkwells. Please
              > explain what is a "Jewish" inkwell and what is a "Roman inkwell"?
              > >
              > > Eliot Braun, Ph D
              > > Ha-oren 12, Har Adar 90836, Israel
              > > Tel. 972-2-5345687 / 972-2-5704189
              > > Cell: 972-50-223 1096
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: goranson@
              > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
              > > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 5:22 PM
              > > Subject: [ANE-2] Qumran inkwells and other facts
              > >
              > >
              > > It is not true (based on available reports) that more inkwells
              > were found at
              > > Shuafat than Qumran. I am a slow typist. Need I retype
              > information
              > > every time a
              > > false claim is made? This list does have an archives with details
              > and
              > > bibliography on inkwells among other things. And the Shuafat,
              > mold-made
              > > inkwells may be Roman rather than Jewish (at least, Yael Olnick
              > has suggested
              > > or raised the question of this distinction of types), and they
              > are reportedly
              > > post second temple period. If we say for conversation sake, that
              > Qumran is one
              > > of the two most inkwell-rich sites in a wide area and a long
              > time, these are
              > > still scribal tools. There is no reason to expect writing on
              > skin, exposed to
              > > elements, fire, and water to survive; such writing surfaces
              > survived in caves,
              > > some enterable only through the Khirbeh. There was writing in
              > Qumran on
              > > pottery
              > > and stone (published in Humbert and Gunneweg). Qumran is still
              > where Pliny's
              > > second temple period source (and probably Dio [see Dead Sea
              > Discoveries
              > > forthcoming] and Solinus) said Essenes lived. Many of the scrolls
              > (S, MMT,
              > > pesharim etc.) are Essene. Some wish not to accept such facts.
              > And there is
              > > more information available to historians on Essenes of Qumran and
              > elsewhere.
              > >
              > > Stephen Goranson
              > > http://www.duke. edu/~goranson
              > > "Jannaeus, His Brother Absalom, and Judah the Essene"
              > > Lincoln: "we cannot escape history".
              >
              >
              >
              >
              ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
              ____________ __
              > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
              > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
              http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >





              ____________________________________________________________________________________
              Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
              http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • kessler_paul
              (1) The Masada scrolls were not stored in jars, but were found simply in the form of fragments here and there in the excavated ground. (2) Only a small portion
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 2, 2008
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                (1) The Masada scrolls were not stored in jars, but were found simply
                in the form of fragments here and there in the excavated ground.

                (2) Only a small portion of the Dead Sea Scrolls (those in cave 1)
                were (apparently) stored in jars, most of them were either buried (as
                in Cave 4) or simply left unprotected (possibly in cloth covers which
                eventually disintegrated) in the caves. So much for Goranson's
                stunning point about the elements.

                (3) I did not resort to the argument about Roman inkwells. Goranson
                resorted to that argument with respect to the Shuafat inkwells, and I
                responded (in part) by pointing out that one could do the same for
                Qumran. Pursuant to your argument, since five inkwells were
                found "together on a floor" at Shuafat, there must have been scribes
                and a scriptorium there, right on that floor! But no one has ever
                argued that there was. (Besides which, as someone else has pointed
                out, pottery was produced at Qumran, why not inkwells too?)

                Paul Kessler (New York, NY)


                --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
                >
                > Is anyone aware of the conditions under which the scrolls from
                Masada were found? It would potentially make considerable difference
                whether they were put somewhere for safe keeping or had been exposed
                to the elements. It must be remembered that the finds at Qumran were
                in jars inside caves. I think the argument was that only the scrolls
                placed in jars and secreted in the caves survived to be discovered.
                >
                > Yes, inkwells would have been needed anywhere correspondence was
                carried out, but it is only logical that when a numerically greater
                number of persons are involved in correspondence or in the production
                of any writings that there would be a greater need for inkwells. I
                hardly think that each scribe could be expected to walk across the
                room to another scribe's position to dip his brush. I'm really
                wondering, however, why you would resort to a hypothesis that the
                Romans may have introduced some of the inkwells to the site. In that
                case, perhaps the few inkwells found at other sites were introduced
                by the Romans as well. The argument that the Romans may have
                introduced them makes no sense.
                >
                > george
                > gfsomsel
                >
                > Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                > defend the truth till death.
                >
                > - Jan Hus
                > _________
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message ----
                > From: kessler_paul <kessler_paul@...>
                > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2008 2:28:45 AM
                > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Qumran inkwells and other facts and inkwells
                >
                > Roman inkwells = way of avoiding fact that more inkwells were
                > found "together on a floor" at Shuafat than in the rubble De Vaux
                > identified as the remains of a "scriptorium" at Qumran.
                >
                > The problem with this claim, of course, is that some of the
                inkwells
                > found at Qumran may themselves have been brought there by Roman
                > soldiers; and, in fact, it's not clear if any of the other "Qumran"
                > inkwells beyond those found by De Vaux really were found at Qumran
                > (want to make a buck? sell an "inkwell from Qumran" on the
                > antiquities market).
                >
                > In general, inkwells have been dug up in many a site in Israel
                > (including villas in Jerusalem) and Jordan; ink was of course
                needed
                > for military and commercial correspondence, drafting of contracts,
                > etc. Whether it's two, three, four, five or six makes no difference
                > whatsover -- that's simply a rhetorical argument on Goranson's part.
                >
                > As for Goranson's argument about how the "elements" may have
                > destroyed every single fragment of parchment that one would have
                > expected to find in the Qumran site (despite the fact that scrolls
                > were dug up at Masada despite the elements there), this is again
                pure
                > speculation rather than a piece of evidence demonstrating any
                organic
                > connection between the scrolls found in the caves and the site.
                >
                > Defenders of the Essene theory consistently appeal to such round-
                > about arguments to escape from the simple fact that they don't have
                > any evidence sectarians lived at Qumran or wrote scrolls there.
                >
                > Paul Kessler (New York, NY)
                >
                > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, Eliot Braun <ebraun@> wrote:
                > >
                > > For more than 30 years I've been struggling with the problem of
                > trying to identify ethnicity in populations through artifactual
                > evidence. I'm intrigued by this distinction in inkwells. Please
                > explain what is a "Jewish" inkwell and what is a "Roman inkwell"?
                > >
                > > Eliot Braun, Ph D
                > > Ha-oren 12, Har Adar 90836, Israel
                > > Tel. 972-2-5345687 / 972-2-5704189
                > > Cell: 972-50-223 1096
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: goranson@
                > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                > > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 5:22 PM
                > > Subject: [ANE-2] Qumran inkwells and other facts
                > >
                > >
                > > It is not true (based on available reports) that more inkwells
                > were found at
                > > Shuafat than Qumran. I am a slow typist. Need I retype
                > information
                > > every time a
                > > false claim is made? This list does have an archives with details
                > and
                > > bibliography on inkwells among other things. And the Shuafat,
                > mold-made
                > > inkwells may be Roman rather than Jewish (at least, Yael Olnick
                > has suggested
                > > or raised the question of this distinction of types), and they
                > are reportedly
                > > post second temple period. If we say for conversation sake, that
                > Qumran is one
                > > of the two most inkwell-rich sites in a wide area and a long
                > time, these are
                > > still scribal tools. There is no reason to expect writing on
                > skin, exposed to
                > > elements, fire, and water to survive; such writing surfaces
                > survived in caves,
                > > some enterable only through the Khirbeh. There was writing in
                > Qumran on
                > > pottery
                > > and stone (published in Humbert and Gunneweg). Qumran is still
                > where Pliny's
                > > second temple period source (and probably Dio [see Dead Sea
                > Discoveries
                > > forthcoming] and Solinus) said Essenes lived. Many of the scrolls
                > (S, MMT,
                > > pesharim etc.) are Essene. Some wish not to accept such facts.
                > And there is
                > > more information available to historians on Essenes of Qumran and
                > elsewhere.
                > >
                > > Stephen Goranson
                > > http://www.duke edu/~goranson
                > > "Jannaeus, His Brother Absalom, and Judah the Essene"
                > > Lincoln: "we cannot escape history".
                >
                >
                >
                >
                ______________________________________________________________________
                ______________
                > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • kessler_paul
                George, it s interesting to see that you re amenable to reason on this issue. Incidentally, I see you have also expressed some interesting views in the
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 2, 2008
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                  George, it's interesting to see that you're amenable to reason on
                  this issue. Incidentally, I see you have also expressed some
                  interesting views in the comments to this article:
                  http://tinyurl.com/ypfgem

                  Paul Kessler (New York, NY)


                  --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thank you for your response. While one might wonder how much
                  protection the debris under which the scrolls were found at Masada
                  would have provided and one might also wonder whether the problem
                  with not finding any such evidence at Qumran was do to its not having
                  been covered with debris, it does quite measurably strenghthen the
                  question regarding why parchment was not found at Qumran which was
                  not in the caves. That seems to be one for the non-scriptorium
                  view.
                  >
                  > george
                  > gfsomsel
                  >
                  > Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                  > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                  > defend the truth till death.
                  >
                  > - Jan Hus
                  > _________
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message ----
                  > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
                  > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2008 7:56:10 AM
                  > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Qumran inkwells and other facts and inkwells
                  >
                  > One of the scrolls was found in a pit beneath the rear room of the
                  > synagogue (not in a jar); others were found beneath about 2m. of
                  > debris (also not in jars). So, if at Masaada why not at Qumran?
                  >
                  > David Stacey
                  > UK
                  > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@ .> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Is anyone aware of the conditions under which the scrolls from
                  > Masada were found? It would potentially make considerable
                  difference
                  > whether they were put somewhere for safe keeping or had been
                  exposed
                  > to the elements. It must be remembered that the finds at Qumran
                  were
                  > in jars inside caves. I think the argument was that only the
                  scrolls
                  > placed in jars and secreted in the caves survived to be discovered.
                  > >
                  > > Yes, inkwells would have been needed anywhere correspondence was
                  > carried out, but it is only logical that when a numerically greater
                  > number of persons are involved in correspondence or in the
                  production
                  > of any writings that there would be a greater need for inkwells. I
                  > hardly think that each scribe could be expected to walk across the
                  > room to another scribe's position to dip his brush. I'm really
                  > wondering, however, why you would resort to a hypothesis that the
                  > Romans may have introduced some of the inkwells to the site. In
                  that
                  > case, perhaps the few inkwells found at other sites were introduced
                  > by the Romans as well. The argument that the Romans may have
                  > introduced them makes no sense.
                  > >
                  > > george
                  > > gfsomsel
                  > >
                  > > Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                  > > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                  > > defend the truth till death.
                  > >
                  > > - Jan Hus
                  > > _________
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message ----
                  > > From: kessler_paul <kessler_paul@ ...>
                  > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                  > > Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2008 2:28:45 AM
                  > > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Qumran inkwells and other facts and inkwells
                  > >
                  > > Roman inkwells = way of avoiding fact that more inkwells were
                  > > found "together on a floor" at Shuafat than in the rubble De Vaux
                  > > identified as the remains of a "scriptorium" at Qumran.
                  > >
                  > > The problem with this claim, of course, is that some of the
                  > inkwells
                  > > found at Qumran may themselves have been brought there by Roman
                  > > soldiers; and, in fact, it's not clear if any of the
                  other "Qumran"
                  > > inkwells beyond those found by De Vaux really were found at
                  Qumran
                  > > (want to make a buck? sell an "inkwell from Qumran" on the
                  > > antiquities market).
                  > >
                  > > In general, inkwells have been dug up in many a site in Israel
                  > > (including villas in Jerusalem) and Jordan; ink was of course
                  > needed
                  > > for military and commercial correspondence, drafting of
                  contracts,
                  > > etc. Whether it's two, three, four, five or six makes no
                  difference
                  > > whatsover -- that's simply a rhetorical argument on Goranson's
                  part.
                  > >
                  > > As for Goranson's argument about how the "elements" may have
                  > > destroyed every single fragment of parchment that one would have
                  > > expected to find in the Qumran site (despite the fact that
                  scrolls
                  > > were dug up at Masada despite the elements there), this is again
                  > pure
                  > > speculation rather than a piece of evidence demonstrating any
                  > organic
                  > > connection between the scrolls found in the caves and the site.
                  > >
                  > > Defenders of the Essene theory consistently appeal to such round-
                  > > about arguments to escape from the simple fact that they don't
                  have
                  > > any evidence sectarians lived at Qumran or wrote scrolls there.
                  > >
                  > > Paul Kessler (New York, NY)
                  > >
                  > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, Eliot Braun <ebraun@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > For more than 30 years I've been struggling with the problem of
                  > > trying to identify ethnicity in populations through artifactual
                  > > evidence. I'm intrigued by this distinction in inkwells. Please
                  > > explain what is a "Jewish" inkwell and what is a "Roman inkwell"?
                  > > >
                  > > > Eliot Braun, Ph D
                  > > > Ha-oren 12, Har Adar 90836, Israel
                  > > > Tel. 972-2-5345687 / 972-2-5704189
                  > > > Cell: 972-50-223 1096
                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > From: goranson@
                  > > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                  > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 5:22 PM
                  > > > Subject: [ANE-2] Qumran inkwells and other facts
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > It is not true (based on available reports) that more inkwells
                  > > were found at
                  > > > Shuafat than Qumran. I am a slow typist. Need I retype
                  > > information
                  > > > every time a
                  > > > false claim is made? This list does have an archives with
                  details
                  > > and
                  > > > bibliography on inkwells among other things. And the Shuafat,
                  > > mold-made
                  > > > inkwells may be Roman rather than Jewish (at least, Yael Olnick
                  > > has suggested
                  > > > or raised the question of this distinction of types), and they
                  > > are reportedly
                  > > > post second temple period. If we say for conversation sake,
                  that
                  > > Qumran is one
                  > > > of the two most inkwell-rich sites in a wide area and a long
                  > > time, these are
                  > > > still scribal tools. There is no reason to expect writing on
                  > > skin, exposed to
                  > > > elements, fire, and water to survive; such writing surfaces
                  > > survived in caves,
                  > > > some enterable only through the Khirbeh. There was writing in
                  > > Qumran on
                  > > > pottery
                  > > > and stone (published in Humbert and Gunneweg). Qumran is still
                  > > where Pliny's
                  > > > second temple period source (and probably Dio [see Dead Sea
                  > > Discoveries
                  > > > forthcoming] and Solinus) said Essenes lived. Many of the
                  scrolls
                  > > (S, MMT,
                  > > > pesharim etc.) are Essene. Some wish not to accept such facts.
                  > > And there is
                  > > > more information available to historians on Essenes of Qumran
                  and
                  > > elsewhere.
                  > > >
                  > > > Stephen Goranson
                  > > > http://www.duke. edu/~goranson
                  > > > "Jannaeus, His Brother Absalom, and Judah the Essene"
                  > > > Lincoln: "we cannot escape history".
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                  > ____________ __
                  > > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                  > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                  > http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category=
                  shopping
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  ______________________________________________________________________
                  ______________
                  > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                  > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • dwashbur@nyx.net
                  ... Only a few of the scrolls found near Qumran (not at Qumran) were in jars. The majority were just tossed in there, seemingly helter-skelter as if there was
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jan 2, 2008
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                    On 2 Jan 2008 at 2:41, George F Somsel wrote:

                    > Is anyone aware of the conditions under which the scrolls from Masada
                    > were found? It would potentially make considerable difference whether
                    > they were put somewhere for safe keeping or had been exposed to the
                    > elements. It must be remembered that the finds at Qumran were in jars
                    > inside caves. I think the argument was that only the scrolls placed in
                    > jars and secreted in the caves survived to be discovered.

                    Only a few of the scrolls found near Qumran (not at Qumran) were in jars. The majority
                    were just tossed in there, seemingly helter-skelter as if there was no concern for their
                    preservation. This is particularly the case with cave 4, where the bulk of scrolls were
                    discovered tossed all over the floor and covered in blown-in dirt, bat guano, and who knows
                    what else.

                    Dave Washburn
                    As a French hippie might say, "Je ne creuse pas!"
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