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Qumran inkwells and other facts

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  • goranson@duke.edu
    It is not true (based on available reports) that more inkwells were found at Shuafat than Qumran. I am a slow typist. Need I retype information every time a
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 1, 2008
      It is not true (based on available reports) that more inkwells were found at
      Shuafat than Qumran. I am a slow typist. Need I retype information
      every time a
      false claim is made? This list does have an archives with details and
      bibliography on inkwells among other things. And the Shuafat, mold-made
      inkwells may be Roman rather than Jewish (at least, Yael Olnick has suggested
      or raised the question of this distinction of types), and they are reportedly
      post second temple period. If we say for conversation sake, that Qumran is one
      of the two most inkwell-rich sites in a wide area and a long time, these are
      still scribal tools. There is no reason to expect writing on skin, exposed to
      elements, fire, and water to survive; such writing surfaces survived in caves,
      some enterable only through the Khirbeh. There was writing in Qumran on
      pottery
      and stone (published in Humbert and Gunneweg). Qumran is still where Pliny's
      second temple period source (and probably Dio [see Dead Sea Discoveries
      forthcoming] and Solinus) said Essenes lived. Many of the scrolls (S, MMT,
      pesharim etc.) are Essene. Some wish not to accept such facts. And there is
      more information available to historians on Essenes of Qumran and elsewhere.

      Stephen Goranson
      http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
      "Jannaeus, His Brother Absalom, and Judah the Essene"
      Lincoln: "we cannot escape history"
    • silverman_mark
      Ah ha, thank you for the lucid and enlightening response!--so Qumran will remain the chief laura for those wise and intrepid desert dwellers.... Marl Silverman
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 1, 2008
        Ah ha, thank you for the lucid and enlightening response!--so Qumran
        will remain the chief laura for those wise and intrepid desert
        dwellers....

        Marl Silverman



        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, goranson@... wrote:
        >
        > It is not true (based on available reports) that more inkwells were
        found at
        > Shuafat than Qumran. I am a slow typist. Need I retype information
        > every time a
        > false claim is made? This list does have an archives with details and
        > bibliography on inkwells among other things. And the Shuafat, mold-made
        > inkwells may be Roman rather than Jewish (at least, Yael Olnick has
        suggested
        > or raised the question of this distinction of types), and they are
        reportedly
        > post second temple period. If we say for conversation sake, that
        Qumran is one
        > of the two most inkwell-rich sites in a wide area and a long time,
        these are
        > still scribal tools. There is no reason to expect writing on skin,
        exposed to
        > elements, fire, and water to survive; such writing surfaces survived
        in caves,
        > some enterable only through the Khirbeh. There was writing in Qumran on
        > pottery
        > and stone (published in Humbert and Gunneweg). Qumran is still where
        Pliny's
        > second temple period source (and probably Dio [see Dead Sea Discoveries
        > forthcoming] and Solinus) said Essenes lived. Many of the scrolls
        (S, MMT,
        > pesharim etc.) are Essene. Some wish not to accept such facts. And
        there is
        > more information available to historians on Essenes of Qumran and
        elsewhere.
        >
        > Stephen Goranson
        > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
        > "Jannaeus, His Brother Absalom, and Judah the Essene"
        > Lincoln: "we cannot escape history"
        >
      • B.E.Colless
        Let me put it this way. One blinkered scholar finds evidence of pottery-manufacture, another senses perfume-making, another detects farming, another notices
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 2, 2008
          Let me put it this way. One blinkered scholar finds evidence of
          pottery-manufacture, another senses perfume-making, another detects farming,
          another notices military activity [remember the war scroll?] on the Qumran
          site, and each thinks they have discovered the full truth about the place.

          Have you heard the one about the blind sages who examined the various parts
          of an elephant (tail, trunk, ear, leg. etc) and each thought he had
          comprehended the essence of the animal?

          Kia ora! (Maaori for "Get a life")

          Brian Colless
          Massey University, New Zealand

          http://cryptcracker.blogspot.com
          http://collesseum.googlepages.com

          > From: goranson@...
          > Reply-To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 10:22:32 -0500
          > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [ANE-2] Qumran inkwells and other facts
          >
          > It is not true (based on available reports) that more inkwells were found at
          > Shuafat than Qumran. I am a slow typist. Need I retype information
          > every time a
          > false claim is made? This list does have an archives with details and
          > bibliography on inkwells among other things. And the Shuafat, mold-made
          > inkwells may be Roman rather than Jewish (at least, Yael Olnick has suggested
          > or raised the question of this distinction of types), and they are reportedly
          > post second temple period. If we say for conversation sake, that Qumran is one
          > of the two most inkwell-rich sites in a wide area and a long time, these are
          > still scribal tools. There is no reason to expect writing on skin, exposed to
          > elements, fire, and water to survive; such writing surfaces survived in caves,
          > some enterable only through the Khirbeh. There was writing in Qumran on
          > pottery
          > and stone (published in Humbert and Gunneweg). Qumran is still where Pliny's
          > second temple period source (and probably Dio [see Dead Sea Discoveries
          > forthcoming] and Solinus) said Essenes lived. Many of the scrolls (S, MMT,
          > pesharim etc.) are Essene. Some wish not to accept such facts. And there is
          > more information available to historians on Essenes of Qumran and elsewhere.
          >
          > Stephen Goranson
          > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
          > "Jannaeus, His Brother Absalom, and Judah the Essene"
          > Lincoln: "we cannot escape history"
          >
          >
        • dastacey62
          ... suggested ... reportedly ... Like Eliot I doubt if it is possible to differentiate between a Roman and a Jewish - or even a Romano-Jewish inkwell.
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 2, 2008
            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, goranson@... wrote:
            >
            > And the Shuafat, mold-made
            > inkwells may be Roman rather than Jewish (at least, Yael Olnick has
            suggested
            > or raised the question of this distinction of types), and they are
            reportedly
            > post second temple period.

            Like Eliot I doubt if it is possible to differentiate between
            a 'Roman' and a 'Jewish' - or even a 'Romano-Jewish' inkwell. Several
            pools were excavated at Shuafat which would seem to be mikvaot so
            there was at least a Jewish presence at the site. It is true that the
            main period of occupation was between the two Revolts so the Shuafat
            inkwells may be slightly later than those from Qumran. However, at
            least one of the Qumran inkwells is most likely from a Period III
            context (and none are 'early') and there is no reason to believe that
            Qumran did not have some occupancy, posssibly seasonal, between the
            Revolts.

            One question:- If no inkwells are found at a site is that proof that
            its occupants could not write?

            David Stacey
            UK
          • goranson@duke.edu
            One possible reason for difference between Qumran and Masada, in regard to whether animal skin scrolls would survive, is that Qumran got flooded more than
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 2, 2008
              One possible reason for difference between Qumran and Masada, in regard
              to whether animal skin scrolls would survive, is that Qumran got flooded
              more than Masada, because Qumran's location and sometimes-broken water system
              brought more water to it, which would rot scrolls, moreso than Masada, which
              was not flooded from land above it and whose water system was below it. Also,
              Masada had casemate walls; Qumran not, among additional differences.
              Again, there was writing on clay and stone found in Kh. Qumran, which is
              published in Humbert and Gunneweg, Khirbet Qumran...II: etudes... 2003. I wish
              those posting on this subject would read that before more declarations. And why
              cite declarations on Dead Sea Scrolls from some (e.g. Hirschfeld) who were not
              Dead Sea Scroll scholars?

              Those interested in the tentative suggestion of Yael Olnick {also in English as
              Olenick) can read her Early Roman-Period Pottery Inkwells from Eretz-Yisrael,"
              Israel--People and Land I (1983-1984) 55-66 Hebrew; 10-11, English, on inkwell
              types. We await full Shufat publication.

              For a review of Edna Ullmann-Margalit's book Out of the Cave, see amazon.com:
              http://tinyurl.com/2z3fwn

              In many posts no one responded to the evidence in the recently-posted review of
              N. Golb, Who Wrote the Scrolls that tells against his proposal. Plus, if these
              were Jerusalem libraries, why are there no indications of ownership for
              retrieval?

              Interestingly, Ulrich makes another three-cave scribal connection in:
              Ulrich, Eugene. "Identification of a Scribe Active at Qumran:
              1QPsb-4QIsac-11QM." In ??????: ?????? ??????? ????
              ????? ?-?. ?????? ?????? ????? [Meghillot: Studies in
              the Dead Sea Scrolls V-VI. A Festschrift for Devorah Dimant], ed. Moshe
              Bar-Asher and Emanuel Tov, *201-*210. Jerusalem: Bialik Institute and Haifa
              University Press, 2007.

              Would you risk life to take a writing exercise (as found in Cave 4) from
              Jerusalem, during seige by the Roman army, to a cave many miles away?

              One who is disinterested in evidence of six or so inkwells raises the question
              (beyond new-found interest in Shuafat): what evidence would interest? And why,
              from some posters, the differing levels of demands for evidence: quite
              demanding for Essenes not to be pushed into limbo, and yet so very lacking in
              stringency--even ignoring counter-evidence (e.g., from Josephus and from the
              non-cross-section of available books at Qumran--for the Jerusalem-library
              one-time deposit ignoring connections to the site and to multiply-attested
              Essene history?

              Stephen Goranson
              http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
              ("Out damned spot," I think, is from Macbeth not Hamlet.)
            • dastacey62
              A few responses:- 1. There is no conclusive evidence that the aqueduct system at Qumran was ever broken and the site flooded . 2. For an extensive puddle
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 2, 2008
                A few responses:-
                1. There is no conclusive evidence that the aqueduct system at
                Qumran was ever 'broken' and the site 'flooded'.
                2. For an extensive 'puddle' at Masada see two-page spread in
                Yadin's 'Masada' pp 32-33
                3. Ostraca (writing on clay) were found on Masada.
                4. If finding inkwells at a site is proof that it was a scribal
                school would the total absence of inkwells at a site be proof that
                its occupants could not write?
                5. I am a dirt archaeologist, not a scroll scholar nor a Classicist,
                but as far as I understand it no classical author links 'Essenes'
                directly with the site of Qumran. Are not Essenes, rather, associated
                with the general area northwest of the Dead Sea? In more recent times
                this area was associated with the Ta'amireh Bedouin tribe, who would
                claim territorial right to graze their flocks there. Philo associated
                Essenes with, inter alia, shepherding. Perhaps shepherds who happened
                to be Essenes grazed their flocks in the general area?
                David Stacey
                UK


                --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, goranson@... wrote:
                >
                > One possible reason for difference between Qumran and Masada, in
                regard
                > to whether animal skin scrolls would survive, is that Qumran got
                flooded
                > more than Masada, because Qumran's location and sometimes-broken
                water system
                > brought more water to it, which would rot scrolls, moreso than
                Masada, which
                > was not flooded from land above it and whose water system was below
                it. Also,
                > Masada had casemate walls; Qumran not, among additional differences.
                > Again, there was writing on clay and stone found in Kh. Qumran,
                which is
                > published in Humbert and Gunneweg, Khirbet Qumran...II: etudes...
                2003. I wish
                > those posting on this subject would read that before more
                declarations. And why
                > cite declarations on Dead Sea Scrolls from some (e.g. Hirschfeld)
                who were not
                > Dead Sea Scroll scholars?
                >
                > Those interested in the tentative suggestion of Yael Olnick {also
                in English as
                > Olenick) can read her Early Roman-Period Pottery Inkwells from
                Eretz-Yisrael,"
                > Israel--People and Land I (1983-1984) 55-66 Hebrew; 10-11, English,
                on inkwell
                > types. We await full Shufat publication.
                >
                > For a review of Edna Ullmann-Margalit's book Out of the Cave, see
                amazon.com:
                > http://tinyurl.com/2z3fwn
                >
                > In many posts no one responded to the evidence in the recently-
                posted review of
                > N. Golb, Who Wrote the Scrolls that tells against his proposal.
                Plus, if these
                > were Jerusalem libraries, why are there no indications of ownership
                for
                > retrieval?
                >
                > Interestingly, Ulrich makes another three-cave scribal connection
                in:
                > Ulrich, Eugene. "Identification of a Scribe Active at Qumran:
                > 1QPsb-4QIsac-11QM." In ??????: ?????? ??????? ????
                > ????? ?-?. ?????? ?????? ????? [Meghillot: Studies in
                > the Dead Sea Scrolls V-VI. A Festschrift for Devorah Dimant], ed.
                Moshe
                > Bar-Asher and Emanuel Tov, *201-*210. Jerusalem: Bialik Institute
                and Haifa
                > University Press, 2007.
                >
                > Would you risk life to take a writing exercise (as found in Cave 4)
                from
                > Jerusalem, during seige by the Roman army, to a cave many miles
                away?
                >
                > One who is disinterested in evidence of six or so inkwells raises
                the question
                > (beyond new-found interest in Shuafat): what evidence would
                interest? And why,
                > from some posters, the differing levels of demands for evidence:
                quite
                > demanding for Essenes not to be pushed into limbo, and yet so very
                lacking in
                > stringency--even ignoring counter-evidence (e.g., from Josephus and
                from the
                > non-cross-section of available books at Qumran--for the Jerusalem-
                library
                > one-time deposit ignoring connections to the site and to multiply-
                attested
                > Essene history?
                >
                > Stephen Goranson
                > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
                > ("Out damned spot," I think, is from Macbeth not Hamlet.)
                >
              • kessler_paul
                I m a bit surprised that in your list of blinkered scholars you didn t include one who thinks Essenes lived in Qumran, another who thinks Sadducees lived
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 2, 2008
                  I'm a bit surprised that in your list of "blinkered scholars" you
                  didn't include one who thinks Essenes lived in Qumran, another who
                  thinks Sadducees lived there, another who thinks Essenes lived not
                  in, but around the site; one who thinks sectarians wrote some of the
                  scrolls there, another who thinks they wrote most of the scrolls
                  there, and another who thinks they wrote all of the scrolls there;
                  one who thinks the site was inhabited by celibate Essenes as per
                  Pliny, another who thinks the Essenes who lived there married despite
                  Pliny; one who thinks the word "Damascus" in one of the scrolls
                  refers to Qumran, another who disagrees with that; one who thinks the
                  Essenes took over a military fortress and another who thinks Qumran
                  could never have been a military fortress because, according to her
                  but not others, "poor" dishes were found there.

                  Paul Kessler (New York, NY)


                  --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "B.E.Colless" <briancolless@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Let me put it this way. One blinkered scholar finds evidence of
                  > pottery-manufacture, another senses perfume-making, another detects
                  farming,
                  > another notices military activity [remember the war scroll?] on the
                  Qumran
                  > site, and each thinks they have discovered the full truth about the
                  place.
                  >
                  > Have you heard the one about the blind sages who examined the
                  various parts
                  > of an elephant (tail, trunk, ear, leg. etc) and each thought he had
                  > comprehended the essence of the animal?
                  >
                  > Kia ora! (Maaori for "Get a life")
                  >
                  > Brian Colless
                  > Massey University, New Zealand
                  >
                  > http://cryptcracker.blogspot.com
                  > http://collesseum.googlepages.com
                  >
                  > > From: goranson@...
                  > > Reply-To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 10:22:32 -0500
                  > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: [ANE-2] Qumran inkwells and other facts
                  > >
                  > > It is not true (based on available reports) that more inkwells
                  were found at
                  > > Shuafat than Qumran. I am a slow typist. Need I retype information
                  > > every time a
                  > > false claim is made? This list does have an archives with details
                  and
                  > > bibliography on inkwells among other things. And the Shuafat,
                  mold-made
                  > > inkwells may be Roman rather than Jewish (at least, Yael Olnick
                  has suggested
                  > > or raised the question of this distinction of types), and they
                  are reportedly
                  > > post second temple period. If we say for conversation sake, that
                  Qumran is one
                  > > of the two most inkwell-rich sites in a wide area and a long
                  time, these are
                  > > still scribal tools. There is no reason to expect writing on
                  skin, exposed to
                  > > elements, fire, and water to survive; such writing surfaces
                  survived in caves,
                  > > some enterable only through the Khirbeh. There was writing in
                  Qumran on
                  > > pottery
                  > > and stone (published in Humbert and Gunneweg). Qumran is still
                  where Pliny's
                  > > second temple period source (and probably Dio [see Dead Sea
                  Discoveries
                  > > forthcoming] and Solinus) said Essenes lived. Many of the scrolls
                  (S, MMT,
                  > > pesharim etc.) are Essene. Some wish not to accept such facts.
                  And there is
                  > > more information available to historians on Essenes of Qumran and
                  elsewhere.
                  > >
                  > > Stephen Goranson
                  > > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
                  > > "Jannaeus, His Brother Absalom, and Judah the Essene"
                  > > Lincoln: "we cannot escape history"
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • kessler_paul
                  On northwest of the Dead Sea : Pliny says merely that they are a throng of refugees living among the palm trees near the Dead Sea, and that that below
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 2, 2008
                    On "northwest of the Dead Sea": Pliny says merely that they are
                    a "throng of refugees" living among the palm trees near the Dead Sea,
                    and that that "below them" (infra hos) lies En Gedi, "now, like
                    Jerusalem, an ash-heap." This certainly does not seem to correspond
                    to a military fortress/commercial-industrial site, and many places
                    closer to En Gedi come to mind (including the the site in the hills
                    above En Gedi excavated by Hirschfeld).

                    Paul Kessler (NY)

                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "dastacey62" <DAVID.STACEY63@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > A few responses:-
                    > 1. There is no conclusive evidence that the aqueduct system at
                    > Qumran was ever 'broken' and the site 'flooded'.
                    > 2. For an extensive 'puddle' at Masada see two-page spread in
                    > Yadin's 'Masada' pp 32-33
                    > 3. Ostraca (writing on clay) were found on Masada.
                    > 4. If finding inkwells at a site is proof that it was a scribal
                    > school would the total absence of inkwells at a site be proof that
                    > its occupants could not write?
                    > 5. I am a dirt archaeologist, not a scroll scholar nor a
                    Classicist,
                    > but as far as I understand it no classical author links 'Essenes'
                    > directly with the site of Qumran. Are not Essenes, rather,
                    associated
                    > with the general area northwest of the Dead Sea? In more recent
                    times
                    > this area was associated with the Ta'amireh Bedouin tribe, who
                    would
                    > claim territorial right to graze their flocks there. Philo
                    associated
                    > Essenes with, inter alia, shepherding. Perhaps shepherds who
                    happened
                    > to be Essenes grazed their flocks in the general area?
                    > David Stacey
                    > UK
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, goranson@ wrote:
                    > >
                    > > One possible reason for difference between Qumran and Masada, in
                    > regard
                    > > to whether animal skin scrolls would survive, is that Qumran got
                    > flooded
                    > > more than Masada, because Qumran's location and sometimes-broken
                    > water system
                    > > brought more water to it, which would rot scrolls, moreso than
                    > Masada, which
                    > > was not flooded from land above it and whose water system was
                    below
                    > it. Also,
                    > > Masada had casemate walls; Qumran not, among additional
                    differences.
                    > > Again, there was writing on clay and stone found in Kh. Qumran,
                    > which is
                    > > published in Humbert and Gunneweg, Khirbet Qumran...II: etudes...
                    > 2003. I wish
                    > > those posting on this subject would read that before more
                    > declarations. And why
                    > > cite declarations on Dead Sea Scrolls from some (e.g. Hirschfeld)
                    > who were not
                    > > Dead Sea Scroll scholars?
                    > >
                    > > Those interested in the tentative suggestion of Yael Olnick {also
                    > in English as
                    > > Olenick) can read her Early Roman-Period Pottery Inkwells from
                    > Eretz-Yisrael,"
                    > > Israel--People and Land I (1983-1984) 55-66 Hebrew; 10-11,
                    English,
                    > on inkwell
                    > > types. We await full Shufat publication.
                    > >
                    > > For a review of Edna Ullmann-Margalit's book Out of the Cave, see
                    > amazon.com:
                    > > http://tinyurl.com/2z3fwn
                    > >
                    > > In many posts no one responded to the evidence in the recently-
                    > posted review of
                    > > N. Golb, Who Wrote the Scrolls that tells against his proposal.
                    > Plus, if these
                    > > were Jerusalem libraries, why are there no indications of
                    ownership
                    > for
                    > > retrieval?
                    > >
                    > > Interestingly, Ulrich makes another three-cave scribal connection
                    > in:
                    > > Ulrich, Eugene. "Identification of a Scribe Active at Qumran:
                    > > 1QPsb-4QIsac-11QM." In ??????: ?????? ??????? ????
                    > > ????? ?-?. ?????? ?????? ????? [Meghillot: Studies in
                    > > the Dead Sea Scrolls V-VI. A Festschrift for Devorah Dimant], ed.
                    > Moshe
                    > > Bar-Asher and Emanuel Tov, *201-*210. Jerusalem: Bialik Institute
                    > and Haifa
                    > > University Press, 2007.
                    > >
                    > > Would you risk life to take a writing exercise (as found in Cave
                    4)
                    > from
                    > > Jerusalem, during seige by the Roman army, to a cave many miles
                    > away?
                    > >
                    > > One who is disinterested in evidence of six or so inkwells raises
                    > the question
                    > > (beyond new-found interest in Shuafat): what evidence would
                    > interest? And why,
                    > > from some posters, the differing levels of demands for evidence:
                    > quite
                    > > demanding for Essenes not to be pushed into limbo, and yet so
                    very
                    > lacking in
                    > > stringency--even ignoring counter-evidence (e.g., from Josephus
                    and
                    > from the
                    > > non-cross-section of available books at Qumran--for the Jerusalem-
                    > library
                    > > one-time deposit ignoring connections to the site and to multiply-
                    > attested
                    > > Essene history?
                    > >
                    > > Stephen Goranson
                    > > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
                    > > ("Out damned spot," I think, is from Macbeth not Hamlet.)
                    > >
                    >
                  • kessler_paul
                    I for one didn t bother responding to the evidence in your review of Golb because it just seems like a rehash of claims and invective, and certainly not
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jan 2, 2008
                      I for one didn't bother responding to the "evidence" in your review
                      of Golb because it just seems like a rehash of claims and invective,
                      and certainly not "evidence." Your method is to set up a straw horse
                      and beat on it, ignoring evidence that does (as recognized in the
                      Church History review of Golb which you ignore) favor the Jerusalem
                      theory, and presupposing the truth of the Qumran-Essene theory
                      despite advances in research to the contrary. The consequences of
                      this kind of discourse can be seen on the Amazon.com site itself,
                      where someone did respond to your review. See
                      http://tinyurl.com/2n89a9

                      Paul Kessler (NY)


                      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, goranson@... wrote:
                      >
                      > One possible reason for difference between Qumran and Masada, in
                      regard
                      > to whether animal skin scrolls would survive, is that Qumran got
                      flooded
                      > more than Masada, because Qumran's location and sometimes-broken
                      water system
                      > brought more water to it, which would rot scrolls, moreso than
                      Masada, which
                      > was not flooded from land above it and whose water system was below
                      it. Also,
                      > Masada had casemate walls; Qumran not, among additional differences.
                      > Again, there was writing on clay and stone found in Kh. Qumran,
                      which is
                      > published in Humbert and Gunneweg, Khirbet Qumran...II: etudes...
                      2003. I wish
                      > those posting on this subject would read that before more
                      declarations. And why
                      > cite declarations on Dead Sea Scrolls from some (e.g. Hirschfeld)
                      who were not
                      > Dead Sea Scroll scholars?
                      >
                      > Those interested in the tentative suggestion of Yael Olnick {also
                      in English as
                      > Olenick) can read her Early Roman-Period Pottery Inkwells from
                      Eretz-Yisrael,"
                      > Israel--People and Land I (1983-1984) 55-66 Hebrew; 10-11, English,
                      on inkwell
                      > types. We await full Shufat publication.
                      >
                      > For a review of Edna Ullmann-Margalit's book Out of the Cave, see
                      amazon.com:
                      > http://tinyurl.com/2z3fwn
                      >
                      > In many posts no one responded to the evidence in the recently-
                      posted review of
                      > N. Golb, Who Wrote the Scrolls that tells against his proposal.
                      Plus, if these
                      > were Jerusalem libraries, why are there no indications of ownership
                      for
                      > retrieval?
                      >
                      > Interestingly, Ulrich makes another three-cave scribal connection
                      in:
                      > Ulrich, Eugene. "Identification of a Scribe Active at Qumran:
                      > 1QPsb-4QIsac-11QM." In ??????: ?????? ??????? ????
                      > ????? ?-?. ?????? ?????? ????? [Meghillot: Studies in
                      > the Dead Sea Scrolls V-VI. A Festschrift for Devorah Dimant], ed.
                      Moshe
                      > Bar-Asher and Emanuel Tov, *201-*210. Jerusalem: Bialik Institute
                      and Haifa
                      > University Press, 2007.
                      >
                      > Would you risk life to take a writing exercise (as found in Cave 4)
                      from
                      > Jerusalem, during seige by the Roman army, to a cave many miles
                      away?
                      >
                      > One who is disinterested in evidence of six or so inkwells raises
                      the question
                      > (beyond new-found interest in Shuafat): what evidence would
                      interest? And why,
                      > from some posters, the differing levels of demands for evidence:
                      quite
                      > demanding for Essenes not to be pushed into limbo, and yet so very
                      lacking in
                      > stringency--even ignoring counter-evidence (e.g., from Josephus and
                      from the
                      > non-cross-section of available books at Qumran--for the Jerusalem-
                      library
                      > one-time deposit ignoring connections to the site and to multiply-
                      attested
                      > Essene history?
                      >
                      > Stephen Goranson
                      > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
                      > ("Out damned spot," I think, is from Macbeth not Hamlet.)
                      >
                    • dastacey62
                      As far as I understand it, the Essenes were ordinary guys who espoused a particular philosophy of Judaism. They lived in small towns and villages throughout
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jan 3, 2008
                        As far as I understand it, the Essenes were ordinary guys who
                        espoused
                        a particular philosophy of Judaism. They lived in small towns and
                        villages throughout Judea, were employed as agriculturalists, rural
                        craftsmen, shepherds, bee-keepers etc and had an interest in the
                        healing power of herbs.
                        When, starting in the Hasmonean period, there was a rapid expansion
                        in
                        the growing of very high value balsam (and perhaps not quite so high
                        value dates) in Jericho and Ein Gedi, there would have been a
                        pressing
                        need for labourers from outside, many of whom , initially at least,
                        would have camped among the date palms. Some of those who were
                        prepared
                        to rough-it in return for certain work were as likely to have been
                        Essenes, whose skills as agriculturalists and rural craftsmen would
                        have been welcome, as anybody else.
                        Seasonal work in Qumran , associated with the products of
                        shepherding
                        and local agriculture, may have been right up the Essenes street -
                        they
                        had the skills, and may have appreciated 'living apart' for a period
                        (in the autumns of my mis-spent youth I often gathered with gypsy
                        travellers and other 'outcasts' to help harvest the hops and apples
                        of
                        Kent. We had a symbiotic relationship with the farmers who needed us,
                        our eccentricites were tolerated, we could, if we worked hard, earn
                        good money, which, in my case, helped subsidise my poorly paid life
                        in
                        archaeology).

                        Hirschfeld's 'site up in the hills' was probably only occupied
                        seasonally when the crops growing in nearby, relatively remote,
                        terraced
                        fields would have been daily targeted by ibex and hyrax who could
                        easily destroy a year's work overnight. Whether these animal scarers
                        were youngsters from the village or passing Essene 'refugees' we
                        shall
                        never know. (My grandfather left school at age 10 and his first job
                        was
                        to walk the hours of daylight around corn fields with wooden clappers
                        to scare the birds. I myself once spent several exhausting weeks
                        camping in a cherry orchard trying, rather unsuccessfully, I might
                        add,
                        to discourage the birds from eating 'my' ripening cherries.)

                        David Stacey
                        UK


                        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "kessler_paul" <kessler_paul@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > On "northwest of the Dead Sea": Pliny says merely that they are
                        > a "throng of refugees" living among the palm trees near the Dead
                        Sea,
                        > and that that "below them" (infra hos) lies En Gedi, "now, like
                        > Jerusalem, an ash-heap." This certainly does not seem to
                        correspond
                        > to a military fortress/commercial-industrial site, and many places
                        > closer to En Gedi come to mind (including the the site in the hills
                        > above En Gedi excavated by Hirschfeld).
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