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Re: Karel van der Toorn

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  • Michael Balter
    I don t post very often to this group, but is this the kind of nasty and abusive stuff that is allowed here by our moderators, attacking people as stupid and
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
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      I don't post very often to this group, but is this the kind of nasty and
      abusive stuff that is allowed here by our moderators, attacking people as
      stupid and lazy? We need a little less psychodrama and sanctimonious
      self-righteousness on this list.

      As for the issues at hand, Mitch Allen published the paperback of my book
      about Catalhoyuk, The Goddess and the Bull, and having the notes at the end
      works very well. As a reader, I simply keep a bookmark or a post-it with the
      notes and flip back when I feel strongly enough that I need to see it, which
      is not always. This way I have the choice.

      best, Michael Balter

      --
      www.michaelbalter.com

      ******************************************
      Michael Balter
      Contributing Correspondent, Science
      michael.balter@...
      ******************************************


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • victor
      Far be it from me to come to the defense on someone on ANE, but as I remember the invectives in the initial letter in this thread were anonymous, and not ad
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
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        Far be it from me to come to the defense on someone on ANE, but as I
        remember the invectives in the initial letter in this thread were anonymous,
        and not ad hominem, meaning that the person under attack is someone we all
        hate but certainly don't see in ourselves, so they are OK.

        Victor Hurowitz

        BGU



        _____

        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        Michael Balter
        Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 12:25 PM
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn



        I don't post very often to this group, but is this the kind of nasty and
        abusive stuff that is allowed here by our moderators, attacking people as
        stupid and lazy? We need a little less psychodrama and sanctimonious
        self-righteousness on this list.

        As for the issues at hand, Mitch Allen published the paperback of my book
        about Catalhoyuk, The Goddess and the Bull, and having the notes at the end
        works very well. As a reader, I simply keep a bookmark or a post-it with the
        notes and flip back when I feel strongly enough that I need to see it, which
        is not always. This way I have the choice.

        best, Michael Balter

        --
        www.michaelbalter.com

        ******************************************
        Michael Balter
        Contributing Correspondent, Science
        michael.balter@ <mailto:michael.balter%40gmail.com> gmail.com
        ******************************************

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Mikey Brass
        ... A former supervisor - Judy Sealy (of Blombos Cave fame) - gave me what I consider to be very pertinent advice a decade ago: if it is not worth including in
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
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          Michael Balter wrote:

          > As for the issues at hand, Mitch Allen published the paperback of my book
          > about Catalhoyuk, The Goddess and the Bull, and having the notes at the end
          > works very well. As a reader, I simply keep a bookmark or a post-it with the
          > notes and flip back when I feel strongly enough that I need to see it, which
          > is not always. This way I have the choice.

          A former supervisor - Judy Sealy (of Blombos Cave fame) - gave me what I
          consider to be very pertinent advice a decade ago: if it is not worth
          including in the text body or if you cannot find place forit, then it is
          not worth saying. The result is a clear, flowing text on pages whose
          layout is not interrupted by footnotes.

          I recognise that sometimes endnotes are neccessary, but by and large
          that information can be included anyways in Supplementaries in articles
          and dissertations.

          --
          Best, Mikey Brass
          Forthcoming doctoral candidate, University College London
          "The Antiquity of Man" http://www.antiquityofman.com
          Book: "The Antiquity of Man: Artifactual, fossil and gene records explored"

          - !ke e: /xarra //ke
          ("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
        • Trudy Kawami
          Please remember to change the subject heading when the content of the post changes. That, too, is a kindness to readers. Trudy Kawami
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
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            Please remember to change the subject heading when the content of the
            post changes. That, too, is a kindness to readers.

            Trudy Kawami



            ________________________________

            From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            Peter T. Daniels
            Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 7:28 AM
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn



            That's why they're at the bottom of the page! (And not interspersed
            within the text.) Benno Landsberger was famously doing it that way a
            generation before Jacobsen.

            "Current Trends in Linguistics" is a 14-volume series of very large
            books published between 1960 and about 1976 that surveyed the entire
            field, and footnotes were used throughout -- with one exception: the
            great Romance philologist and historical linguist Yakov Malkiel was
            famous for his extensive and invaluable notes, and they are so long that
            they are printed as endnotes.
            --
            Peter T. Daniels grammatim@... <mailto:grammatim%40verizon.net>


            ----- Original Message ----
            From: victor <victor@...
            <mailto:victor%40bgumail.bgu.ac.il> >
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, November 5, 2007 6:39:51 AM
            Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn

            Well with the advent of electronic books we will soon have the option of

            viewing notes either as footnotes or endnotes at the click of the mouse.

            Quite frankly, although I personally prefer footnotes, I do sometimes
            like
            to read an article from beginning to end without the footnotes
            interfering
            with the main narrative. Right now I'm reading an article by the late
            Throkild Jacobsen who was a master at writing major contributions in his

            footnotes, using the article itself as just something on which to hang
            them.
            Although I might like to see his references in footnotes, the articles
            embedded in the footnotes are better read separately.





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • victor
            Maybe someone should footnote the heading Victor BGU _____ From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Trudy Kawami Sent: Monday,
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
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              Maybe someone should footnote the heading

              Victor

              BGU



              _____

              From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              Trudy Kawami
              Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 5:31 PM
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com; ANE-2@yahoogroups.com; ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [ANE-2] Subject heading changes



              Please remember to change the subject heading when the content of the
              post changes. That, too, is a kindness to readers.

              Trudy Kawami

              ________________________________

              From: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
              [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com] On Behalf
              Of
              Peter T. Daniels
              Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 7:28 AM
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn

              That's why they're at the bottom of the page! (And not interspersed
              within the text.) Benno Landsberger was famously doing it that way a
              generation before Jacobsen.

              "Current Trends in Linguistics" is a 14-volume series of very large
              books published between 1960 and about 1976 that surveyed the entire
              field, and footnotes were used throughout -- with one exception: the
              great Romance philologist and historical linguist Yakov Malkiel was
              famous for his extensive and invaluable notes, and they are so long that
              they are printed as endnotes.
              --
              Peter T. Daniels grammatim@verizon. <mailto:grammatim%40verizon.net> net
              <mailto:grammatim%40verizon.net>

              ----- Original Message ----
              From: victor <victor@bgumail. <mailto:victor%40bgumail.bgu.ac.il> bgu.ac.il
              <mailto:victor%40bgumail.bgu.ac.il> >
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
              <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, November 5, 2007 6:39:51 AM
              Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn

              Well with the advent of electronic books we will soon have the option of

              viewing notes either as footnotes or endnotes at the click of the mouse.

              Quite frankly, although I personally prefer footnotes, I do sometimes
              like
              to read an article from beginning to end without the footnotes
              interfering
              with the main narrative. Right now I'm reading an article by the late
              Throkild Jacobsen who was a master at writing major contributions in his

              footnotes, using the article itself as just something on which to hang
              them.
              Although I might like to see his references in footnotes, the articles
              embedded in the footnotes are better read separately.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Stern, Richard H.
              Is it necessarily black or white - that is, only two possibilities? I.e., important enough to put in text or else consigned to the back of the book? Some
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
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                Is it necessarily black or white - that is, only two possibilities?
                I.e., important enough to put in text or else consigned to the back of
                the book?

                Some writers use textual footnotes in which they elaborate on points,
                but the digression might break up the flow of the main narrative in a
                way that troubles those skimming through that part of the text. It is
                one thing to consign purely citational notes to the back of the bus, but
                with textual digressions put into footnote in order to keep main text
                from becoming disjointed, it needs to be at the bottom of the page so
                that readers can take a quick look to determine whether they wish to
                pursue that particular digression. Some will, while others won't. As a
                reader, whose business stupid publishers presumably need to attract to
                keep the wolf from the door, I find those publications that banish only
                citations to the back easier to read and more likely to please me than
                publications that use 100% endnotes.

                What would be wrong with having enough flexibility to banish only
                citations? And how do you explain the very common habit of citing
                Biblical references in parentheses in text? E.g., "(Jer. 30:29-32)."

                =====================================
                Best regards.

                Richard H. Stern
                rstern@... rstern@...
                Washington, DC 20036
                http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                =====================================
              • Sara Orel
                ... I find that it depends very much on the content of the article. An article on epigraphy would often be useless without extensive footnotes. It also
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
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                  At 08:12 AM 11/5/2007, Mikey Brass wrote:

                  >A former supervisor - Judy Sealy (of Blombos Cave fame) - gave me what I
                  >consider to be very pertinent advice a decade ago: if it is not worth
                  >including in the text body or if you cannot find place forit, then it is
                  >not worth saying. The result is a clear, flowing text on pages whose
                  >layout is not interrupted by footnotes.

                  I find that it depends very much on the content of the article. An
                  article on epigraphy would often be useless without extensive
                  footnotes. It also depends on the discipline and who your supervisor
                  was. I have found myself in historical/language papers providing
                  extensive footnotes. An archaeological NARRATIVE can sometimes be
                  written without them (if you use parenthetical citations, which not
                  all journals do), but publication of objects should include footnotes
                  (or endnotes, but in this case I would argue footnotes for ease of
                  use) for more extensive comparanda. I think we may all be talking
                  about our own fields here, rather than about the publications of
                  tangential fields. And thus we are not agreeing.

                  Sara

                  Sara E. Orel, Ph.D.
                  Professor of Art History
                  Art Department
                  Truman State University
                  Kirksville, MO 63501
                  (660) 785-4419

                  orel@...

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • dwashbur@nyx.net
                  After having it in my library for some 20 years, I m finally getting around to reading Shirer s Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. At least in the paperback
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
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                    After having it in my library for some 20 years, I'm finally getting around to reading Shirer's
                    "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich." At least in the paperback edition I'm reading, this is how
                    the notes are done. Numbered notes are endnotes and are limited strictly to citations, while
                    "further information" notes that elaborate, say, on what ultimately happened to a certain
                    person mentioned in the text, are footnotes marked by asterisks, bullets, daggers and all
                    that paraphernalia. I find this a very useful setup, but if a publisher must limit to one or the
                    other, I will prefer footnotes every time, since I have no way of knowing what is going to be a
                    comment and what is going to be a citation. There's often a lot of info in those notes that
                    isn't strictly relevant to the text at hand, and I greatly prefer having them right there on the
                    page so I can evaluate them on the fly without potentially losing my place in the text.

                    On 5 Nov 2007 at 11:53, Stern, Richard H. wrote:

                    > Is it necessarily black or white - that is, only two possibilities?
                    > I.e., important enough to put in text or else consigned to the back of
                    > the book?
                    >
                    > Some writers use textual footnotes in which they elaborate on points,
                    > but the digression might break up the flow of the main narrative in a
                    > way that troubles those skimming through that part of the text. It is
                    > one thing to consign purely citational notes to the back of the bus, but
                    > with textual digressions put into footnote in order to keep main text
                    > from becoming disjointed, it needs to be at the bottom of the page so
                    > that readers can take a quick look to determine whether they wish to
                    > pursue that particular digression. Some will, while others won't. As a
                    > reader, whose business stupid publishers presumably need to attract to
                    > keep the wolf from the door, I find those publications that banish only
                    > citations to the back easier to read and more likely to please me than
                    > publications that use 100% endnotes.
                    >
                    > What would be wrong with having enough flexibility to banish only
                    > citations? And how do you explain the very common habit of citing
                    > Biblical references in parentheses in text? E.g., "(Jer. 30:29-32)."
                    >
                    > =====================================
                    > Best regards.
                    >
                    > Richard H. Stern
                    > rstern@... rstern@...
                    > Washington, DC 20036
                    > http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                    > =====================================
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    Dave Washburn
                    Why do it right when you can do it again?
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