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Re: Karel van der Toorn

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  • Michael Balter
    I don t post very often to this group, but is this the kind of nasty and abusive stuff that is allowed here by our moderators, attacking people as stupid and
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
      I don't post very often to this group, but is this the kind of nasty and
      abusive stuff that is allowed here by our moderators, attacking people as
      stupid and lazy? We need a little less psychodrama and sanctimonious
      self-righteousness on this list.

      As for the issues at hand, Mitch Allen published the paperback of my book
      about Catalhoyuk, The Goddess and the Bull, and having the notes at the end
      works very well. As a reader, I simply keep a bookmark or a post-it with the
      notes and flip back when I feel strongly enough that I need to see it, which
      is not always. This way I have the choice.

      best, Michael Balter

      --
      www.michaelbalter.com

      ******************************************
      Michael Balter
      Contributing Correspondent, Science
      michael.balter@...
      ******************************************


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jim West
      ... Actually in my experience its more annoying and interrupts the flow when I have to stick my finger between the pages, flip to the back of the book, find
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
        Mitch Allen wrote:
        > As one of those stupid publishers, I will not use footnotes in our
        > books. If it's not important enough to include in the main narrative of
        > the work, I will insist that authors put it in end notes. A book should
        > be designed to be a unified, linear narrative. The rest might be
        > interesting to a few specialists like yourselves, but should not
        > interrupt the general flow of the argument and can get relegated to the
        > back of the book.
        > mitch allen
        > Stupid Publisher
        > Left Coast Press, Inc.


        Actually in my experience its more annoying and interrupts the flow when
        I have to stick my finger between the pages, flip to the back of the
        book, find the note, and then turn back. It's much, much easier to look
        at the bottom of a page than it is to play page gymnastics.

        --
        Jim West, ThD

        http://drjewest.googlepages.com/ -- Biblical Studies Resources
        http://drjimwest.wordpress.com -- Weblog
      • victor
        Far be it from me to come to the defense on someone on ANE, but as I remember the invectives in the initial letter in this thread were anonymous, and not ad
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
          Far be it from me to come to the defense on someone on ANE, but as I
          remember the invectives in the initial letter in this thread were anonymous,
          and not ad hominem, meaning that the person under attack is someone we all
          hate but certainly don't see in ourselves, so they are OK.

          Victor Hurowitz

          BGU



          _____

          From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          Michael Balter
          Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 12:25 PM
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn



          I don't post very often to this group, but is this the kind of nasty and
          abusive stuff that is allowed here by our moderators, attacking people as
          stupid and lazy? We need a little less psychodrama and sanctimonious
          self-righteousness on this list.

          As for the issues at hand, Mitch Allen published the paperback of my book
          about Catalhoyuk, The Goddess and the Bull, and having the notes at the end
          works very well. As a reader, I simply keep a bookmark or a post-it with the
          notes and flip back when I feel strongly enough that I need to see it, which
          is not always. This way I have the choice.

          best, Michael Balter

          --
          www.michaelbalter.com

          ******************************************
          Michael Balter
          Contributing Correspondent, Science
          michael.balter@ <mailto:michael.balter%40gmail.com> gmail.com
          ******************************************

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Mikey Brass
          ... A former supervisor - Judy Sealy (of Blombos Cave fame) - gave me what I consider to be very pertinent advice a decade ago: if it is not worth including in
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
            Michael Balter wrote:

            > As for the issues at hand, Mitch Allen published the paperback of my book
            > about Catalhoyuk, The Goddess and the Bull, and having the notes at the end
            > works very well. As a reader, I simply keep a bookmark or a post-it with the
            > notes and flip back when I feel strongly enough that I need to see it, which
            > is not always. This way I have the choice.

            A former supervisor - Judy Sealy (of Blombos Cave fame) - gave me what I
            consider to be very pertinent advice a decade ago: if it is not worth
            including in the text body or if you cannot find place forit, then it is
            not worth saying. The result is a clear, flowing text on pages whose
            layout is not interrupted by footnotes.

            I recognise that sometimes endnotes are neccessary, but by and large
            that information can be included anyways in Supplementaries in articles
            and dissertations.

            --
            Best, Mikey Brass
            Forthcoming doctoral candidate, University College London
            "The Antiquity of Man" http://www.antiquityofman.com
            Book: "The Antiquity of Man: Artifactual, fossil and gene records explored"

            - !ke e: /xarra //ke
            ("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
          • Trudy Kawami
            Please remember to change the subject heading when the content of the post changes. That, too, is a kindness to readers. Trudy Kawami
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
              Please remember to change the subject heading when the content of the
              post changes. That, too, is a kindness to readers.

              Trudy Kawami



              ________________________________

              From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              Peter T. Daniels
              Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 7:28 AM
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn



              That's why they're at the bottom of the page! (And not interspersed
              within the text.) Benno Landsberger was famously doing it that way a
              generation before Jacobsen.

              "Current Trends in Linguistics" is a 14-volume series of very large
              books published between 1960 and about 1976 that surveyed the entire
              field, and footnotes were used throughout -- with one exception: the
              great Romance philologist and historical linguist Yakov Malkiel was
              famous for his extensive and invaluable notes, and they are so long that
              they are printed as endnotes.
              --
              Peter T. Daniels grammatim@... <mailto:grammatim%40verizon.net>


              ----- Original Message ----
              From: victor <victor@...
              <mailto:victor%40bgumail.bgu.ac.il> >
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, November 5, 2007 6:39:51 AM
              Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn

              Well with the advent of electronic books we will soon have the option of

              viewing notes either as footnotes or endnotes at the click of the mouse.

              Quite frankly, although I personally prefer footnotes, I do sometimes
              like
              to read an article from beginning to end without the footnotes
              interfering
              with the main narrative. Right now I'm reading an article by the late
              Throkild Jacobsen who was a master at writing major contributions in his

              footnotes, using the article itself as just something on which to hang
              them.
              Although I might like to see his references in footnotes, the articles
              embedded in the footnotes are better read separately.





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • victor
              Maybe someone should footnote the heading Victor BGU _____ From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Trudy Kawami Sent: Monday,
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
                Maybe someone should footnote the heading

                Victor

                BGU



                _____

                From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                Trudy Kawami
                Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 5:31 PM
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com; ANE-2@yahoogroups.com; ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [ANE-2] Subject heading changes



                Please remember to change the subject heading when the content of the
                post changes. That, too, is a kindness to readers.

                Trudy Kawami

                ________________________________

                From: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com] On Behalf
                Of
                Peter T. Daniels
                Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 7:28 AM
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn

                That's why they're at the bottom of the page! (And not interspersed
                within the text.) Benno Landsberger was famously doing it that way a
                generation before Jacobsen.

                "Current Trends in Linguistics" is a 14-volume series of very large
                books published between 1960 and about 1976 that surveyed the entire
                field, and footnotes were used throughout -- with one exception: the
                great Romance philologist and historical linguist Yakov Malkiel was
                famous for his extensive and invaluable notes, and they are so long that
                they are printed as endnotes.
                --
                Peter T. Daniels grammatim@verizon. <mailto:grammatim%40verizon.net> net
                <mailto:grammatim%40verizon.net>

                ----- Original Message ----
                From: victor <victor@bgumail. <mailto:victor%40bgumail.bgu.ac.il> bgu.ac.il
                <mailto:victor%40bgumail.bgu.ac.il> >
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Monday, November 5, 2007 6:39:51 AM
                Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn

                Well with the advent of electronic books we will soon have the option of

                viewing notes either as footnotes or endnotes at the click of the mouse.

                Quite frankly, although I personally prefer footnotes, I do sometimes
                like
                to read an article from beginning to end without the footnotes
                interfering
                with the main narrative. Right now I'm reading an article by the late
                Throkild Jacobsen who was a master at writing major contributions in his

                footnotes, using the article itself as just something on which to hang
                them.
                Although I might like to see his references in footnotes, the articles
                embedded in the footnotes are better read separately.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Stern, Richard H.
                Is it necessarily black or white - that is, only two possibilities? I.e., important enough to put in text or else consigned to the back of the book? Some
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
                  Is it necessarily black or white - that is, only two possibilities?
                  I.e., important enough to put in text or else consigned to the back of
                  the book?

                  Some writers use textual footnotes in which they elaborate on points,
                  but the digression might break up the flow of the main narrative in a
                  way that troubles those skimming through that part of the text. It is
                  one thing to consign purely citational notes to the back of the bus, but
                  with textual digressions put into footnote in order to keep main text
                  from becoming disjointed, it needs to be at the bottom of the page so
                  that readers can take a quick look to determine whether they wish to
                  pursue that particular digression. Some will, while others won't. As a
                  reader, whose business stupid publishers presumably need to attract to
                  keep the wolf from the door, I find those publications that banish only
                  citations to the back easier to read and more likely to please me than
                  publications that use 100% endnotes.

                  What would be wrong with having enough flexibility to banish only
                  citations? And how do you explain the very common habit of citing
                  Biblical references in parentheses in text? E.g., "(Jer. 30:29-32)."

                  =====================================
                  Best regards.

                  Richard H. Stern
                  rstern@... rstern@...
                  Washington, DC 20036
                  http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                  =====================================
                • Sara Orel
                  ... I find that it depends very much on the content of the article. An article on epigraphy would often be useless without extensive footnotes. It also
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
                    At 08:12 AM 11/5/2007, Mikey Brass wrote:

                    >A former supervisor - Judy Sealy (of Blombos Cave fame) - gave me what I
                    >consider to be very pertinent advice a decade ago: if it is not worth
                    >including in the text body or if you cannot find place forit, then it is
                    >not worth saying. The result is a clear, flowing text on pages whose
                    >layout is not interrupted by footnotes.

                    I find that it depends very much on the content of the article. An
                    article on epigraphy would often be useless without extensive
                    footnotes. It also depends on the discipline and who your supervisor
                    was. I have found myself in historical/language papers providing
                    extensive footnotes. An archaeological NARRATIVE can sometimes be
                    written without them (if you use parenthetical citations, which not
                    all journals do), but publication of objects should include footnotes
                    (or endnotes, but in this case I would argue footnotes for ease of
                    use) for more extensive comparanda. I think we may all be talking
                    about our own fields here, rather than about the publications of
                    tangential fields. And thus we are not agreeing.

                    Sara

                    Sara E. Orel, Ph.D.
                    Professor of Art History
                    Art Department
                    Truman State University
                    Kirksville, MO 63501
                    (660) 785-4419

                    orel@...

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • dwashbur@nyx.net
                    After having it in my library for some 20 years, I m finally getting around to reading Shirer s Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. At least in the paperback
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
                      After having it in my library for some 20 years, I'm finally getting around to reading Shirer's
                      "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich." At least in the paperback edition I'm reading, this is how
                      the notes are done. Numbered notes are endnotes and are limited strictly to citations, while
                      "further information" notes that elaborate, say, on what ultimately happened to a certain
                      person mentioned in the text, are footnotes marked by asterisks, bullets, daggers and all
                      that paraphernalia. I find this a very useful setup, but if a publisher must limit to one or the
                      other, I will prefer footnotes every time, since I have no way of knowing what is going to be a
                      comment and what is going to be a citation. There's often a lot of info in those notes that
                      isn't strictly relevant to the text at hand, and I greatly prefer having them right there on the
                      page so I can evaluate them on the fly without potentially losing my place in the text.

                      On 5 Nov 2007 at 11:53, Stern, Richard H. wrote:

                      > Is it necessarily black or white - that is, only two possibilities?
                      > I.e., important enough to put in text or else consigned to the back of
                      > the book?
                      >
                      > Some writers use textual footnotes in which they elaborate on points,
                      > but the digression might break up the flow of the main narrative in a
                      > way that troubles those skimming through that part of the text. It is
                      > one thing to consign purely citational notes to the back of the bus, but
                      > with textual digressions put into footnote in order to keep main text
                      > from becoming disjointed, it needs to be at the bottom of the page so
                      > that readers can take a quick look to determine whether they wish to
                      > pursue that particular digression. Some will, while others won't. As a
                      > reader, whose business stupid publishers presumably need to attract to
                      > keep the wolf from the door, I find those publications that banish only
                      > citations to the back easier to read and more likely to please me than
                      > publications that use 100% endnotes.
                      >
                      > What would be wrong with having enough flexibility to banish only
                      > citations? And how do you explain the very common habit of citing
                      > Biblical references in parentheses in text? E.g., "(Jer. 30:29-32)."
                      >
                      > =====================================
                      > Best regards.
                      >
                      > Richard H. Stern
                      > rstern@... rstern@...
                      > Washington, DC 20036
                      > http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                      > =====================================
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      Dave Washburn
                      Why do it right when you can do it again?
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