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Re: [ANE-2] Query: the name of King Rim-Sin of Larsa

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  • Giuseppe Del Monte
    ... Well, here are two contrasting etymologies from the late 20th century: 1) CAD R (1999) p. 361b from ri:mu A wild bull 2) W. von Soden, AHw p. 986b (Lief.
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 4, 2007
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      At 01.49 04/11/2007, you wrote:
      ><snip>So far, I could trace two old (early 20th-century) hypotheses on the
      >meaning of this name:
      >1) Rim-Sin = 'the moon-god Sin's wild bull' (from Akk.
      >ri:mu 'aurochs, wild bull')
      >2) Rim-Sin = 'Have Mercy, O Moon-god!' (from?)
      >Could anyone here throw more light on the etymology of this name?
      >Thanks in advance, and best regards.
      >Francesco Brighenti
      >Venice, Italy

      Well, here are two contrasting etymologies from the late 20th century:
      1) CAD R (1999) p. 361b from ri:mu A "wild bull"
      2) W. von Soden, AHw p. 986b (Lief. 11, 1972)
      from ri:mu(m) II "Geschenk (v Gott)" (from ria:mu "to present")

      Ah, the glamour of the science of Etymology! Of
      course, both (and others) are true.

      Saluti,
      Giuseppe Del Monte



      Prof. Dr. Giuseppe del Monte
      Professore Ordinario di Ittitologia
      e Storia del Vicino Oriente antico
      Dpt. Scienze storiche del mondo antico
      Università di Pisa
      via Galvani 1 - I-56100 Pisa
      Fax 39-050-500668 - E-mail <gdelmonte@...>


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    • victor
      What has to be done now is compare the name with both etymological possibilities with other names of the period and decide which is more probable. If I
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 4, 2007
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        What has to be done now is compare the name with both etymological
        possibilities with other names of the period and decide which is more
        probable. If I remember correctly, Von Soden derives the Biblical name
        Miriam for the r’m meaning gift, but that shouldn’t prejudice our
        interpretation of Rim-Sin, although equations with Sin-iddinam and Iddin-Sin
        might tip the balances in favour of Gift of Sin. On the other hand we have
        Amar-Sin or Bur-Sin which would point towards the other etymology, calf of
        Sin. Could the name be a double entendre?

        Victor Hurowitz

        BGU



        _____

        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        Giuseppe Del Monte
        Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 1:49 PM
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com; ANE-2@yahoogroups.com; ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Query: the name of King Rim-Sin of Larsa



        At 01.49 04/11/2007, you wrote:
        ><snip>So far, I could trace two old (early 20th-century) hypotheses on the
        >meaning of this name:
        >1) Rim-Sin = 'the moon-god Sin's wild bull' (from Akk.
        >ri:mu 'aurochs, wild bull')
        >2) Rim-Sin = 'Have Mercy, O Moon-god!' (from?)
        >Could anyone here throw more light on the etymology of this name?
        >Thanks in advance, and best regards.
        >Francesco Brighenti
        >Venice, Italy

        Well, here are two contrasting etymologies from the late 20th century:
        1) CAD R (1999) p. 361b from ri:mu A "wild bull"
        2) W. von Soden, AHw p. 986b (Lief. 11, 1972)
        from ri:mu(m) II "Geschenk (v Gott)" (from ria:mu "to present")

        Ah, the glamour of the science of Etymology! Of
        course, both (and others) are true.

        Saluti,
        Giuseppe Del Monte

        Prof. Dr. Giuseppe del Monte
        Professore Ordinario di Ittitologia
        e Storia del Vicino Oriente antico
        Dpt. Scienze storiche del mondo antico
        Università di Pisa
        via Galvani 1 - I-56100 Pisa
        Fax 39-050-500668 - E-mail <gdelmonte@lunet. <mailto:gdelmonte%40lunet.it>
        it>

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        No virus found in this outgoing message.
        Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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        18.26





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Robert M Whiting
        ... Actually, there are three etymological possibilities, not two: 1. ri:mu wild bull, aurochs ; root apparently R M; apparently a primary noun. 2. rêmu to
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 4, 2007
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          On Sun, 4 Nov 2007, victor wrote:

          > What has to be done now is compare the name with both etymological
          > possibilities with other names of the period and decide which is more
          > probable.

          Actually, there are three etymological possibilities, not two:

          1. ri:mu "wild bull, aurochs"; root apparently R'M; apparently a primary
          noun.

          2. rêmu "to be merciful, compassionate"; root RH.M (this is cognate with
          Arabic and Hebrew).

          3. ria:mu "to present"; root presumaby RYM.

          > If I remember correctly, Von Soden derives the Biblical name Miriam for
          > the r’m meaning gift, but that shouldn’t prejudice our interpretation of
          > Rim-Sin, although equations with Sin-iddinam and Iddin-Sin might tip the
          > balances in favour of Gift of Sin.

          You could also throw in Qi$ti-Sin, Iqi$-Sin and Sin-iqi$am.

          > On the other hand we have Amar-Sin or Bur-Sin which would point towards
          > the other etymology, calf of Sin.

          The association of ri:mu with Sin comes through the horns of the bull and
          the horns of the crescent moon. The Hebrew cognate of ri:mu, re'em, is
          the word that is translated "unicorn" in Deut 33:17, probably based on the
          Septuagint translation of monokero:tos, but because we now know that the
          verse isn't talking about unicorns it should be understood as "your horns
          are like the horns of the wild bull".

          For 2, the most common form in names is Re:manni-DN "Have mercy on me, O,
          DN", although a shorter form Re:m-DN "Be merciful, O, DN" is not excluded.

          For 3, again the most common form is the feminine: Ri:mut-DN "Gift of DN",
          but again the masculine ri:m is not impossible.

          > Could the name be a double entendre?

          Or a triple entendre? Actually it's more like a three-card monte; you
          pays your money and you takes your choice.

          Personally, I have always favored 1 because of a factor not mentioned,
          namely, whether the attribute fits the deity of the theophoric element
          well. For 2 I would expect Re:manni-Sin rather than Re:m-Sin and for 3 I
          would expect Ri:mut-Sin rather than Ri:m-Sin. Your mileage may vary.

          Bob Whiting
          whiting@...




          >
          > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          > Giuseppe Del Monte
          > Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 1:49 PM
          > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com; ANE-2@yahoogroups.com; ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Query: the name of King Rim-Sin of Larsa
          >
          >
          >
          > At 01.49 04/11/2007, you wrote:
          > ><snip>So far, I could trace two old (early 20th-century) hypotheses on the
          > >meaning of this name:
          > >1) Rim-Sin = 'the moon-god Sin's wild bull' (from Akk.
          > >ri:mu 'aurochs, wild bull')
          > >2) Rim-Sin = 'Have Mercy, O Moon-god!' (from?)
          > >Could anyone here throw more light on the etymology of this name?
          > >Thanks in advance, and best regards.
          > >Francesco Brighenti
          > >Venice, Italy
          >
          > Well, here are two contrasting etymologies from the late 20th century:
          > 1) CAD R (1999) p. 361b from ri:mu A "wild bull"
          > 2) W. von Soden, AHw p. 986b (Lief. 11, 1972)
          > from ri:mu(m) II "Geschenk (v Gott)" (from ria:mu "to present")
          >
          > Ah, the glamour of the science of Etymology! Of
          > course, both (and others) are true.
          >
          > Saluti,
          > Giuseppe Del Monte
        • victor
          I take no issue with you on these matters. I had no intention of being thorough. There is, of course a question about the second possibility (raised by the
          Message 4 of 9 , Nov 4, 2007
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            I take no issue with you on these matters. I had no intention of being
            thorough. There is, of course a question about the second possibility
            (raised by the original poster of the question), and that is would the vowel
            /i/ be appropriate if the rhm etymology is the appropriate one.

            Victor Hurowitz

            BGU



            _____

            From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            Robert M Whiting
            Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 3:09 PM
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com; ANE-2@yahoogroups.com; ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Query: the name of King Rim-Sin of Larsa



            On Sun, 4 Nov 2007, victor wrote:

            > What has to be done now is compare the name with both etymological
            > possibilities with other names of the period and decide which is more
            > probable.

            Actually, there are three etymological possibilities, not two:

            1. ri:mu "wild bull, aurochs"; root apparently R'M; apparently a primary
            noun.

            2. rêmu "to be merciful, compassionate"; root RH.M (this is cognate with
            Arabic and Hebrew).

            3. ria:mu "to present"; root presumaby RYM.

            > If I remember correctly, Von Soden derives the Biblical name Miriam for
            > the r’m meaning gift, but that shouldn’t prejudice our interpretation of
            > Rim-Sin, although equations with Sin-iddinam and Iddin-Sin might tip the
            > balances in favour of Gift of Sin.

            You could also throw in Qi$ti-Sin, Iqi$-Sin and Sin-iqi$am.

            > On the other hand we have Amar-Sin or Bur-Sin which would point towards
            > the other etymology, calf of Sin.

            The association of ri:mu with Sin comes through the horns of the bull and
            the horns of the crescent moon. The Hebrew cognate of ri:mu, re'em, is
            the word that is translated "unicorn" in Deut 33:17, probably based on the
            Septuagint translation of monokero:tos, but because we now know that the
            verse isn't talking about unicorns it should be understood as "your horns
            are like the horns of the wild bull".

            For 2, the most common form in names is Re:manni-DN "Have mercy on me, O,
            DN", although a shorter form Re:m-DN "Be merciful, O, DN" is not excluded.

            For 3, again the most common form is the feminine: Ri:mut-DN "Gift of DN",
            but again the masculine ri:m is not impossible.

            > Could the name be a double entendre?

            Or a triple entendre? Actually it's more like a three-card monte; you
            pays your money and you takes your choice.

            Personally, I have always favored 1 because of a factor not mentioned,
            namely, whether the attribute fits the deity of the theophoric element
            well. For 2 I would expect Re:manni-Sin rather than Re:m-Sin and for 3 I
            would expect Ri:mut-Sin rather than Ri:m-Sin. Your mileage may vary.

            Bob Whiting
            whiting@... <mailto:whiting%40cc.helsinki.fi> .fi

            >
            > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
            [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com] On Behalf
            Of
            > Giuseppe Del Monte
            > Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 1:49 PM
            > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com;
            ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com; ANE-2@yahoogroups.
            <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
            > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Query: the name of King Rim-Sin of Larsa
            >
            >
            >
            > At 01.49 04/11/2007, you wrote:
            > ><snip>So far, I could trace two old (early 20th-century) hypotheses on
            the
            > >meaning of this name:
            > >1) Rim-Sin = 'the moon-god Sin's wild bull' (from Akk.
            > >ri:mu 'aurochs, wild bull')
            > >2) Rim-Sin = 'Have Mercy, O Moon-god!' (from?)
            > >Could anyone here throw more light on the etymology of this name?
            > >Thanks in advance, and best regards.
            > >Francesco Brighenti
            > >Venice, Italy
            >
            > Well, here are two contrasting etymologies from the late 20th century:
            > 1) CAD R (1999) p. 361b from ri:mu A "wild bull"
            > 2) W. von Soden, AHw p. 986b (Lief. 11, 1972)
            > from ri:mu(m) II "Geschenk (v Gott)" (from ria:mu "to present")
            >
            > Ah, the glamour of the science of Etymology! Of
            > course, both (and others) are true.
            >
            > Saluti,
            > Giuseppe Del Monte





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Robert M Whiting
            ... I wasn t trying to imply that I found you remiss in not mentioning these things; I was just using your message as a starting point because it already
            Message 5 of 9 , Nov 4, 2007
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              On Sun, 4 Nov 2007, victor wrote:

              > I take no issue with you on these matters. I had no intention of being
              > thorough. There is, of course a question about the second possibility
              > (raised by the original poster of the question), and that is would the vowel
              > /i/ be appropriate if the rhm etymology is the appropriate one.

              I wasn't trying to imply that I found you remiss in not mentioning these
              things; I was just using your message as a starting point because it
              already contained a lot that did not have to be restated.

              For the other point, there is no way to tell from the cuneiform
              orthography {ri-im} whether the intended vowel is /i/ or /e/. The answer
              is that the vowel /i/ would be inappropriate for the root RH.M but since
              there are no separate cuneiform signs for {re} and {em} the writing is not
              diagnostic. Only a writing {ri-i-im} or {re-e-em} would be conclusive
              and, to my knowledge, these do not occur. Otherwise, the decision to
              transliterate {ri-im} or {re-em} can only be based on one's choice of the
              etymology. If one believes in 1 or 3 one should transcribe Rim-Sin; if
              one chooses 2, Rem-Sin. Again, you pays your money and you takes your
              choice.

              Bob Whiting
              whiting@...


              > _____
              >
              > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              > Robert M Whiting
              > Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 3:09 PM
              > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com; ANE-2@yahoogroups.com; ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Query: the name of King Rim-Sin of Larsa
              >
              >
              >
              > On Sun, 4 Nov 2007, victor wrote:
              >
              > > What has to be done now is compare the name with both etymological
              > > possibilities with other names of the period and decide which is more
              > > probable.
              >
              > Actually, there are three etymological possibilities, not two:
              >
              > 1. ri:mu "wild bull, aurochs"; root apparently R'M; apparently a primary
              > noun.
              >
              > 2. rêmu "to be merciful, compassionate"; root RH.M (this is cognate with
              > Arabic and Hebrew).
              >
              > 3. ria:mu "to present"; root presumaby RYM.
              >
              > > If I remember correctly, Von Soden derives the Biblical name Miriam for
              > > the r’m meaning gift, but that shouldn’t prejudice our interpretation of
              > > Rim-Sin, although equations with Sin-iddinam and Iddin-Sin might tip the
              > > balances in favour of Gift of Sin.
              >
              > You could also throw in Qi$ti-Sin, Iqi$-Sin and Sin-iqi$am.
              >
              > > On the other hand we have Amar-Sin or Bur-Sin which would point towards
              > > the other etymology, calf of Sin.
              >
              > The association of ri:mu with Sin comes through the horns of the bull and
              > the horns of the crescent moon. The Hebrew cognate of ri:mu, re'em, is
              > the word that is translated "unicorn" in Deut 33:17, probably based on the
              > Septuagint translation of monokero:tos, but because we now know that the
              > verse isn't talking about unicorns it should be understood as "your horns
              > are like the horns of the wild bull".
              >
              > For 2, the most common form in names is Re:manni-DN "Have mercy on me, O,
              > DN", although a shorter form Re:m-DN "Be merciful, O, DN" is not excluded.
              >
              > For 3, again the most common form is the feminine: Ri:mut-DN "Gift of DN",
              > but again the masculine ri:m is not impossible.
              >
              > > Could the name be a double entendre?
              >
              > Or a triple entendre? Actually it's more like a three-card monte; you
              > pays your money and you takes your choice.
              >
              > Personally, I have always favored 1 because of a factor not mentioned,
              > namely, whether the attribute fits the deity of the theophoric element
              > well. For 2 I would expect Re:manni-Sin rather than Re:m-Sin and for 3 I
              > would expect Ri:mut-Sin rather than Ri:m-Sin. Your mileage may vary.
              >
              > Bob Whiting
              > whiting@... <mailto:whiting%40cc.helsinki.fi> .fi
              >
              > >
              > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
              > [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com] On Behalf
              > Of
              > > Giuseppe Del Monte
              > > Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 1:49 PM
              > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com;
              > ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com; ANE-2@yahoogroups.
              > <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
              > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Query: the name of King Rim-Sin of Larsa
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > At 01.49 04/11/2007, you wrote:
              > > ><snip>So far, I could trace two old (early 20th-century) hypotheses on
              > the
              > > >meaning of this name:
              > > >1) Rim-Sin = 'the moon-god Sin's wild bull' (from Akk.
              > > >ri:mu 'aurochs, wild bull')
              > > >2) Rim-Sin = 'Have Mercy, O Moon-god!' (from?)
              > > >Could anyone here throw more light on the etymology of this name?
              > > >Thanks in advance, and best regards.
              > > >Francesco Brighenti
              > > >Venice, Italy
              > >
              > > Well, here are two contrasting etymologies from the late 20th century:
              > > 1) CAD R (1999) p. 361b from ri:mu A "wild bull"
              > > 2) W. von Soden, AHw p. 986b (Lief. 11, 1972)
              > > from ri:mu(m) II "Geschenk (v Gott)" (from ria:mu "to present")
              > >
              > > Ah, the glamour of the science of Etymology! Of
              > > course, both (and others) are true.
              > >
              > > Saluti,
              > > Giuseppe Del Monte
            • Giuseppe Del Monte
              ... Cp. also names such as Rim-Adad, Rim-Anum etc. Greetings, Giuseppe Del Monte Prof. Dr. Giuseppe del Monte Professore Ordinario di Ittitologia e Storia del
              Message 6 of 9 , Nov 4, 2007
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                At 14.09 04/11/2007, Bob Whiting wrote:
                ><snip>
                >The association of ri:mu with Sin comes through the horns of the bull and
                >the horns of the crescent moon. The Hebrew cognate of ri:mu, re'em, is
                >the word that is translated "unicorn" in Deut 33:17, probably based on the
                >Septuagint translation of monokero:tos, but because we now know that the
                >verse isn't talking about unicorns it should be understood as "your horns
                >are like the horns of the wild bull".

                Cp. also names such as Rim-Adad, Rim-Anum etc.

                Greetings,
                Giuseppe Del Monte



                Prof. Dr. Giuseppe del Monte
                Professore Ordinario di Ittitologia
                e Storia del Vicino Oriente antico
                Dpt. Scienze storiche del mondo antico
                Università di Pisa
                via Galvani 1 - I-56100 Pisa
                Fax 39-050-500668 - E-mail <gdelmonte@...>


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                No virus found in this outgoing message.
                Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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              • Michael F. Lane
                Dear all, I m trying to track down citations on the evidence that Sumerian fiscal officers inspected (visually) land areas and crops in the field in order to
                Message 7 of 9 , Nov 4, 2007
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                  Dear all,

                  I'm trying to track down citations on the evidence that Sumerian fiscal
                  officers
                  inspected (visually) land areas and crops in the field in order to estimate
                  harvest yields and estimate taxes due accordingly.

                  It seems to me that I've seen something about his somewhere, but it's
                  eluding me
                  right now. I recall someone referring me to a part of OBO 160/3, but that
                  volume is not available to me at the moment.

                  The request is fairly urgent, so I would be most grateful to anyone who
                  can put
                  me on the right track.

                  All best regards,

                  Michael F. Lane
                • Francesco Brighenti
                  Dear Robert, Victor, Giuseppe, Many thanks for your illuminating and mutually complementing clues about the etymology and meaning of the name Ri:m-Sin. ...
                  Message 8 of 9 , Nov 5, 2007
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                    Dear Robert, Victor, Giuseppe,

                    Many thanks for your illuminating and mutually complementing clues
                    about the etymology and meaning of the name Ri:m-Sin.

                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Robert M Whiting <whiting@...> wrote:

                    > Actually, there are three etymological possibilities, not two:
                    >
                    > 1. ri:mu "wild bull, aurochs"; root apparently R'M; apparently a
                    > primary noun.
                    >
                    > 2. rêmu "to be merciful, compassionate"; root RH.M (this is
                    > cognate with Arabic and Hebrew).
                    >
                    > 3. ria:mu "to present"; root presumaby RYM.
                    >
                    > [...]
                    >
                    > The association of ri:mu with Sin comes through the horns of the
                    > bull and the horns of the crescent moon.
                    >
                    > [...]
                    >
                    > Personally, I have always favored 1 because of a factor not
                    > mentioned, namely, whether the attribute fits the deity of the
                    > theophoric element well.

                    This works fine for me; indeed, additional cuneiform evidence for
                    translating the royal name Ri:m-Sin as 'the moon-god Sin's wild
                    bull' (see T.G. Pinches, "Early Babylonian Chronology and the Book
                    of Genesis," _The Expository Times_ 27 [1916], pp. 517-21) may be
                    provided in Erica Reiner's paper "Astral Magic in Babylonia",
                    _Transactions of the American Philosophical Society_, New Ser., Vol.
                    85, No. 4. (1995), p. 129, n. 607:

                    "[N]ot all names written AM-{d}Sin are be emended to Nara:m-Sin,
                    since AM as Sumerogram can stand for the Akkadian word ri:mu 'wild
                    bull,' and hence the spelling can refer to King Ri:m-Sin of Larsa."

                    Best,
                    Francesco Brighenti
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