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SV: [ANE-2] Karel van der Toorn

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  • Niels Peter Lemche
    Peter, It is s stupid publisher who demands endnotes. I have resisted these sirens so far. The book is a kind of curate s egg: Good in parts! Niels Peter
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 3, 2007
      Peter,

      It is s stupid publisher who demands endnotes. I have resisted these sirens so far.

      The book is a kind of curate's egg: Good in parts!

      Niels Peter Lemche




      -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
      Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Peter T. Daniels
      Sendt: 3. november 2007 14:40
      Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Emne: Re: [ANE-2] Karel van der Toorn

      According to the label on the copy I bought yesterday at Borders in Ft. Lee, NJ, it's been in the store since June 6!

      The Introduction seems aimed at a non-scholarly audience. It's rather annoying that there are 100 pages of endnotes, most of them contentful. There's no excuse in the era of word processing not to use footnotes!
      --
      Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: K L Noll <KLNoll@...>
      To: ANE-2 <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, November 2, 2007 7:01:58 PM
      Subject: [ANE-2] Karel van der Toorn

      Snip
      And thank you, Niels Peter, for the infromation that Karel Van der Toorn's book is out now. I'd been waiting for that.

      *
      Several weeks ago, Jim West attempted to start a thread about this book here on this list, and there were no takers. I am still keen to hear some comments about it. I obtained and devoured the book the instant I'd heard about it, but was disappointed, as it seems to be rather conventional. But that is my view. I would like to hear what others think of this volume.



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    • Mitch Allen
      As one of those stupid publishers, I will not use footnotes in our books. If it s not important enough to include in the main narrative of the work, I will
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 4, 2007
        As one of those stupid publishers, I will not use footnotes in our
        books. If it's not important enough to include in the main narrative of
        the work, I will insist that authors put it in end notes. A book should
        be designed to be a unified, linear narrative. The rest might be
        interesting to a few specialists like yourselves, but should not
        interrupt the general flow of the argument and can get relegated to the
        back of the book.
        mitch allen
        Stupid Publisher
        Left Coast Press, Inc.

        Mitch Allen
        Publisher
        Left Coast Press, Inc.
        1630 N. Main Street, #400
        Walnut Creek, California 94596
        925 935-3380 phone and fax
        mitch@...
        www.LCoastPress.com
      • Peter T. Daniels
        Then you have no concern for the convenience of the reader. And your conception of the purpose of footnotes is, shall we say, unusual. Every so often I have
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 4, 2007
          Then you have no concern for the convenience of the reader.

          And your conception of the purpose of footnotes is, shall we say, unusual. Every so often I have encountered a book where stuff that belongs in the notes has been shoehorned into the text, and while the information may be vitally important, it distracts from the argument of the text.

          Many years ago, the University of Chicago Press published John Boswell's *Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality* [I can never be sure of the correct order of the three elements!], one of the first academic books on the subject. The Press desperately wanted to use endnotes (in those days, endnotes were considerably cheaper to produce than footnotes), so that they could issue a paperback that would supposedly appeal to the general reader by omitting the apparatus. The author, however, insisted on footnotes and somehow prevailed. The Press was astonished, an editor told me, at the reception the book received ("with footnotes in eighteen languages!" or something like that was a common refrain in the gay press), and all thought of a dumbed-down popular edition was abandoned.

          It's really shocking that Harvard UP has put hundreds of contentful notes at the back of the book.

          Another option, of course, is to have both contentful footnotes and reference-only endnotes.
          --
          Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...

          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Mitch Allen <leftcoastpress@...>
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2007 5:11:29 PM
          Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn

          As one of those stupid publishers, I will not use footnotes in our
          books. If it's not important enough to include in the main narrative of
          the work, I will insist that authors put it in end notes. A book should
          be designed to be a unified, linear narrative. The rest might be
          interesting to a few specialists like yourselves, but should not
          interrupt the general flow of the argument and can get relegated to the
          back of the book.
        • George F Somsel
          I find such an attitude on the part of a publisher totally unconscionable. As an inveterate reader of notes I find it irritating to be required to go to a
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
            I find such an attitude on the part of a publisher totally unconscionable. As an inveterate reader of notes I find it irritating to be required to go to a different section of the book to read the content of a note which should be right before my eyes. It becomes necessary to insert a bookmark in the notes section and advance it as I proceed through the book. I would say that the self-adopted description of "stupid publisher" is quite appropriate since it is based on a spurious justification of unalloyed laziness on the part of the publisher who is simply attempting to avoid the effort necessary to properly lay out the book.

            I would advise all authors to avoid the use of a TYRANICAL and LAZY publisher who is so STUPID as to insist upon endnotes rather than footnotes. I am currently working on a manuscript myself and fully intend to make the requirement that footnotes be used rather than endnotes a prime consideration. I might go so far as to publish it myself if I should fail to find a publisher who is accomodating. As a reader I hesitate to purchase a book with endnotes. I would recommend that when a book with endnotes is found that the potential buyer NOT BUY it but rather proceed to the library to read it. Perhaps is publishers find that their sales volume is impacted because of this policy they will reconsider.

            george
            gfsomsel

            Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
            learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
            defend the truth till death.

            - Jan Hus
            _________



            ----- Original Message ----
            From: Mitch Allen <leftcoastpress@...>
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2007 5:11:29 PM
            Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn

            As one of those stupid publishers, I will not use footnotes in our
            books. If it's not important enough to include in the main narrative of
            the work, I will insist that authors put it in end notes. A book should
            be designed to be a unified, linear narrative. The rest might be
            interesting to a few specialists like yourselves, but should not
            interrupt the general flow of the argument and can get relegated to the
            back of the book.
            mitch allen
            Stupid Publisher
            Left Coast Press, Inc.

            Mitch Allen
            Publisher
            Left Coast Press, Inc.
            1630 N. Main Street, #400
            Walnut Creek, California 94596
            925 935-3380 phone and fax
            mitch@LCoastPress. com
            www.LCoastPress. com



            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
            http://mail.yahoo.com

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Michael Balter
            I don t post very often to this group, but is this the kind of nasty and abusive stuff that is allowed here by our moderators, attacking people as stupid and
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
              I don't post very often to this group, but is this the kind of nasty and
              abusive stuff that is allowed here by our moderators, attacking people as
              stupid and lazy? We need a little less psychodrama and sanctimonious
              self-righteousness on this list.

              As for the issues at hand, Mitch Allen published the paperback of my book
              about Catalhoyuk, The Goddess and the Bull, and having the notes at the end
              works very well. As a reader, I simply keep a bookmark or a post-it with the
              notes and flip back when I feel strongly enough that I need to see it, which
              is not always. This way I have the choice.

              best, Michael Balter

              --
              www.michaelbalter.com

              ******************************************
              Michael Balter
              Contributing Correspondent, Science
              michael.balter@...
              ******************************************


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jim West
              ... Actually in my experience its more annoying and interrupts the flow when I have to stick my finger between the pages, flip to the back of the book, find
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
                Mitch Allen wrote:
                > As one of those stupid publishers, I will not use footnotes in our
                > books. If it's not important enough to include in the main narrative of
                > the work, I will insist that authors put it in end notes. A book should
                > be designed to be a unified, linear narrative. The rest might be
                > interesting to a few specialists like yourselves, but should not
                > interrupt the general flow of the argument and can get relegated to the
                > back of the book.
                > mitch allen
                > Stupid Publisher
                > Left Coast Press, Inc.


                Actually in my experience its more annoying and interrupts the flow when
                I have to stick my finger between the pages, flip to the back of the
                book, find the note, and then turn back. It's much, much easier to look
                at the bottom of a page than it is to play page gymnastics.

                --
                Jim West, ThD

                http://drjewest.googlepages.com/ -- Biblical Studies Resources
                http://drjimwest.wordpress.com -- Weblog
              • victor
                Well with the advent of electronic books we will soon have the option of viewing notes either as footnotes or endnotes at the click of the mouse. Quite
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
                  Well with the advent of electronic books we will soon have the option of
                  viewing notes either as footnotes or endnotes at the click of the mouse.
                  Quite frankly, although I personally prefer footnotes, I do sometimes like
                  to read an article from beginning to end without the footnotes interfering
                  with the main narrative. Right now I'm reading an article by the late
                  Throkild Jacobsen who was a master at writing major contributions in his
                  footnotes, using the article itself as just something on which to hang them.
                  Although I might like to see his references in footnotes, the articles
                  embedded in the footnotes are better read separately.

                  Best,

                  Victor Hurowitz

                  BGU



                  _____

                  From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  George F Somsel
                  Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 11:14 AM
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn



                  I find such an attitude on the part of a publisher totally unconscionable.
                  As an inveterate reader of notes I find it irritating to be required to go
                  to a different section of the book to read the content of a note which
                  should be right before my eyes. It becomes necessary to insert a bookmark in
                  the notes section and advance it as I proceed through the book. I would say
                  that the self-adopted description of "stupid publisher" is quite appropriate
                  since it is based on a spurious justification of unalloyed laziness on the
                  part of the publisher who is simply attempting to avoid the effort necessary
                  to properly lay out the book.

                  I would advise all authors to avoid the use of a TYRANICAL and LAZY
                  publisher who is so STUPID as to insist upon endnotes rather than footnotes.
                  I am currently working on a manuscript myself and fully intend to make the
                  requirement that footnotes be used rather than endnotes a prime
                  consideration. I might go so far as to publish it myself if I should fail to
                  find a publisher who is accomodating. As a reader I hesitate to purchase a
                  book with endnotes. I would recommend that when a book with endnotes is
                  found that the potential buyer NOT BUY it but rather proceed to the library
                  to read it. Perhaps is publishers find that their sales volume is impacted
                  because of this policy they will reconsider.

                  george
                  gfsomsel

                  Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                  learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                  defend the truth till death.

                  - Jan Hus
                  _________

                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: Mitch Allen <leftcoastpress@ <mailto:leftcoastpress%40sbcglobal.net>
                  sbcglobal.net>
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                  Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2007 5:11:29 PM
                  Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn

                  As one of those stupid publishers, I will not use footnotes in our
                  books. If it's not important enough to include in the main narrative of
                  the work, I will insist that authors put it in end notes. A book should
                  be designed to be a unified, linear narrative. The rest might be
                  interesting to a few specialists like yourselves, but should not
                  interrupt the general flow of the argument and can get relegated to the
                  back of the book.
                  mitch allen
                  Stupid Publisher
                  Left Coast Press, Inc.

                  Mitch Allen
                  Publisher
                  Left Coast Press, Inc.
                  1630 N. Main Street, #400
                  Walnut Creek, California 94596
                  925 935-3380 phone and fax
                  mitch@LCoastPress. com
                  www.LCoastPress. com

                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                  http://mail. <http://mail.yahoo.com> yahoo.com

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Peter T. Daniels
                  That s why they re at the bottom of the page! (And not interspersed within the text.) Benno Landsberger was famously doing it that way a generation before
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
                    That's why they're at the bottom of the page! (And not interspersed within the text.) Benno Landsberger was famously doing it that way a generation before Jacobsen.

                    "Current Trends in Linguistics" is a 14-volume series of very large books published between 1960 and about 1976 that surveyed the entire field, and footnotes were used throughout -- with one exception: the great Romance philologist and historical linguist Yakov Malkiel was famous for his extensive and invaluable notes, and they are so long that they are printed as endnotes.
                    --
                    Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...

                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: victor <victor@...>
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, November 5, 2007 6:39:51 AM
                    Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn

                    Well with the advent of electronic books we will soon have the option of
                    viewing notes either as footnotes or endnotes at the click of the mouse.
                    Quite frankly, although I personally prefer footnotes, I do sometimes like
                    to read an article from beginning to end without the footnotes interfering
                    with the main narrative. Right now I'm reading an article by the late
                    Throkild Jacobsen who was a master at writing major contributions in his
                    footnotes, using the article itself as just something on which to hang them.
                    Although I might like to see his references in footnotes, the articles
                    embedded in the footnotes are better read separately.
                  • victor
                    Far be it from me to come to the defense on someone on ANE, but as I remember the invectives in the initial letter in this thread were anonymous, and not ad
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
                      Far be it from me to come to the defense on someone on ANE, but as I
                      remember the invectives in the initial letter in this thread were anonymous,
                      and not ad hominem, meaning that the person under attack is someone we all
                      hate but certainly don't see in ourselves, so they are OK.

                      Victor Hurowitz

                      BGU



                      _____

                      From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                      Michael Balter
                      Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 12:25 PM
                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn



                      I don't post very often to this group, but is this the kind of nasty and
                      abusive stuff that is allowed here by our moderators, attacking people as
                      stupid and lazy? We need a little less psychodrama and sanctimonious
                      self-righteousness on this list.

                      As for the issues at hand, Mitch Allen published the paperback of my book
                      about Catalhoyuk, The Goddess and the Bull, and having the notes at the end
                      works very well. As a reader, I simply keep a bookmark or a post-it with the
                      notes and flip back when I feel strongly enough that I need to see it, which
                      is not always. This way I have the choice.

                      best, Michael Balter

                      --
                      www.michaelbalter.com

                      ******************************************
                      Michael Balter
                      Contributing Correspondent, Science
                      michael.balter@ <mailto:michael.balter%40gmail.com> gmail.com
                      ******************************************

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Mikey Brass
                      ... A former supervisor - Judy Sealy (of Blombos Cave fame) - gave me what I consider to be very pertinent advice a decade ago: if it is not worth including in
                      Message 10 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
                        Michael Balter wrote:

                        > As for the issues at hand, Mitch Allen published the paperback of my book
                        > about Catalhoyuk, The Goddess and the Bull, and having the notes at the end
                        > works very well. As a reader, I simply keep a bookmark or a post-it with the
                        > notes and flip back when I feel strongly enough that I need to see it, which
                        > is not always. This way I have the choice.

                        A former supervisor - Judy Sealy (of Blombos Cave fame) - gave me what I
                        consider to be very pertinent advice a decade ago: if it is not worth
                        including in the text body or if you cannot find place forit, then it is
                        not worth saying. The result is a clear, flowing text on pages whose
                        layout is not interrupted by footnotes.

                        I recognise that sometimes endnotes are neccessary, but by and large
                        that information can be included anyways in Supplementaries in articles
                        and dissertations.

                        --
                        Best, Mikey Brass
                        Forthcoming doctoral candidate, University College London
                        "The Antiquity of Man" http://www.antiquityofman.com
                        Book: "The Antiquity of Man: Artifactual, fossil and gene records explored"

                        - !ke e: /xarra //ke
                        ("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
                      • Trudy Kawami
                        Please remember to change the subject heading when the content of the post changes. That, too, is a kindness to readers. Trudy Kawami
                        Message 11 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
                          Please remember to change the subject heading when the content of the
                          post changes. That, too, is a kindness to readers.

                          Trudy Kawami



                          ________________________________

                          From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                          Peter T. Daniels
                          Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 7:28 AM
                          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn



                          That's why they're at the bottom of the page! (And not interspersed
                          within the text.) Benno Landsberger was famously doing it that way a
                          generation before Jacobsen.

                          "Current Trends in Linguistics" is a 14-volume series of very large
                          books published between 1960 and about 1976 that surveyed the entire
                          field, and footnotes were used throughout -- with one exception: the
                          great Romance philologist and historical linguist Yakov Malkiel was
                          famous for his extensive and invaluable notes, and they are so long that
                          they are printed as endnotes.
                          --
                          Peter T. Daniels grammatim@... <mailto:grammatim%40verizon.net>


                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: victor <victor@...
                          <mailto:victor%40bgumail.bgu.ac.il> >
                          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Monday, November 5, 2007 6:39:51 AM
                          Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn

                          Well with the advent of electronic books we will soon have the option of

                          viewing notes either as footnotes or endnotes at the click of the mouse.

                          Quite frankly, although I personally prefer footnotes, I do sometimes
                          like
                          to read an article from beginning to end without the footnotes
                          interfering
                          with the main narrative. Right now I'm reading an article by the late
                          Throkild Jacobsen who was a master at writing major contributions in his

                          footnotes, using the article itself as just something on which to hang
                          them.
                          Although I might like to see his references in footnotes, the articles
                          embedded in the footnotes are better read separately.





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • victor
                          Maybe someone should footnote the heading Victor BGU _____ From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Trudy Kawami Sent: Monday,
                          Message 12 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
                            Maybe someone should footnote the heading

                            Victor

                            BGU



                            _____

                            From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                            Trudy Kawami
                            Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 5:31 PM
                            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com; ANE-2@yahoogroups.com; ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [ANE-2] Subject heading changes



                            Please remember to change the subject heading when the content of the
                            post changes. That, too, is a kindness to readers.

                            Trudy Kawami

                            ________________________________

                            From: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                            [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com] On Behalf
                            Of
                            Peter T. Daniels
                            Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 7:28 AM
                            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn

                            That's why they're at the bottom of the page! (And not interspersed
                            within the text.) Benno Landsberger was famously doing it that way a
                            generation before Jacobsen.

                            "Current Trends in Linguistics" is a 14-volume series of very large
                            books published between 1960 and about 1976 that surveyed the entire
                            field, and footnotes were used throughout -- with one exception: the
                            great Romance philologist and historical linguist Yakov Malkiel was
                            famous for his extensive and invaluable notes, and they are so long that
                            they are printed as endnotes.
                            --
                            Peter T. Daniels grammatim@verizon. <mailto:grammatim%40verizon.net> net
                            <mailto:grammatim%40verizon.net>

                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: victor <victor@bgumail. <mailto:victor%40bgumail.bgu.ac.il> bgu.ac.il
                            <mailto:victor%40bgumail.bgu.ac.il> >
                            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                            <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Monday, November 5, 2007 6:39:51 AM
                            Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn

                            Well with the advent of electronic books we will soon have the option of

                            viewing notes either as footnotes or endnotes at the click of the mouse.

                            Quite frankly, although I personally prefer footnotes, I do sometimes
                            like
                            to read an article from beginning to end without the footnotes
                            interfering
                            with the main narrative. Right now I'm reading an article by the late
                            Throkild Jacobsen who was a master at writing major contributions in his

                            footnotes, using the article itself as just something on which to hang
                            them.
                            Although I might like to see his references in footnotes, the articles
                            embedded in the footnotes are better read separately.

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Stern, Richard H.
                            Is it necessarily black or white - that is, only two possibilities? I.e., important enough to put in text or else consigned to the back of the book? Some
                            Message 13 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
                              Is it necessarily black or white - that is, only two possibilities?
                              I.e., important enough to put in text or else consigned to the back of
                              the book?

                              Some writers use textual footnotes in which they elaborate on points,
                              but the digression might break up the flow of the main narrative in a
                              way that troubles those skimming through that part of the text. It is
                              one thing to consign purely citational notes to the back of the bus, but
                              with textual digressions put into footnote in order to keep main text
                              from becoming disjointed, it needs to be at the bottom of the page so
                              that readers can take a quick look to determine whether they wish to
                              pursue that particular digression. Some will, while others won't. As a
                              reader, whose business stupid publishers presumably need to attract to
                              keep the wolf from the door, I find those publications that banish only
                              citations to the back easier to read and more likely to please me than
                              publications that use 100% endnotes.

                              What would be wrong with having enough flexibility to banish only
                              citations? And how do you explain the very common habit of citing
                              Biblical references in parentheses in text? E.g., "(Jer. 30:29-32)."

                              =====================================
                              Best regards.

                              Richard H. Stern
                              rstern@... rstern@...
                              Washington, DC 20036
                              http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                              =====================================
                            • Sara Orel
                              ... I find that it depends very much on the content of the article. An article on epigraphy would often be useless without extensive footnotes. It also
                              Message 14 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
                                At 08:12 AM 11/5/2007, Mikey Brass wrote:

                                >A former supervisor - Judy Sealy (of Blombos Cave fame) - gave me what I
                                >consider to be very pertinent advice a decade ago: if it is not worth
                                >including in the text body or if you cannot find place forit, then it is
                                >not worth saying. The result is a clear, flowing text on pages whose
                                >layout is not interrupted by footnotes.

                                I find that it depends very much on the content of the article. An
                                article on epigraphy would often be useless without extensive
                                footnotes. It also depends on the discipline and who your supervisor
                                was. I have found myself in historical/language papers providing
                                extensive footnotes. An archaeological NARRATIVE can sometimes be
                                written without them (if you use parenthetical citations, which not
                                all journals do), but publication of objects should include footnotes
                                (or endnotes, but in this case I would argue footnotes for ease of
                                use) for more extensive comparanda. I think we may all be talking
                                about our own fields here, rather than about the publications of
                                tangential fields. And thus we are not agreeing.

                                Sara

                                Sara E. Orel, Ph.D.
                                Professor of Art History
                                Art Department
                                Truman State University
                                Kirksville, MO 63501
                                (660) 785-4419

                                orel@...

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • dwashbur@nyx.net
                                After having it in my library for some 20 years, I m finally getting around to reading Shirer s Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. At least in the paperback
                                Message 15 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
                                  After having it in my library for some 20 years, I'm finally getting around to reading Shirer's
                                  "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich." At least in the paperback edition I'm reading, this is how
                                  the notes are done. Numbered notes are endnotes and are limited strictly to citations, while
                                  "further information" notes that elaborate, say, on what ultimately happened to a certain
                                  person mentioned in the text, are footnotes marked by asterisks, bullets, daggers and all
                                  that paraphernalia. I find this a very useful setup, but if a publisher must limit to one or the
                                  other, I will prefer footnotes every time, since I have no way of knowing what is going to be a
                                  comment and what is going to be a citation. There's often a lot of info in those notes that
                                  isn't strictly relevant to the text at hand, and I greatly prefer having them right there on the
                                  page so I can evaluate them on the fly without potentially losing my place in the text.

                                  On 5 Nov 2007 at 11:53, Stern, Richard H. wrote:

                                  > Is it necessarily black or white - that is, only two possibilities?
                                  > I.e., important enough to put in text or else consigned to the back of
                                  > the book?
                                  >
                                  > Some writers use textual footnotes in which they elaborate on points,
                                  > but the digression might break up the flow of the main narrative in a
                                  > way that troubles those skimming through that part of the text. It is
                                  > one thing to consign purely citational notes to the back of the bus, but
                                  > with textual digressions put into footnote in order to keep main text
                                  > from becoming disjointed, it needs to be at the bottom of the page so
                                  > that readers can take a quick look to determine whether they wish to
                                  > pursue that particular digression. Some will, while others won't. As a
                                  > reader, whose business stupid publishers presumably need to attract to
                                  > keep the wolf from the door, I find those publications that banish only
                                  > citations to the back easier to read and more likely to please me than
                                  > publications that use 100% endnotes.
                                  >
                                  > What would be wrong with having enough flexibility to banish only
                                  > citations? And how do you explain the very common habit of citing
                                  > Biblical references in parentheses in text? E.g., "(Jer. 30:29-32)."
                                  >
                                  > =====================================
                                  > Best regards.
                                  >
                                  > Richard H. Stern
                                  > rstern@... rstern@...
                                  > Washington, DC 20036
                                  > http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                                  > =====================================
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >


                                  Dave Washburn
                                  Why do it right when you can do it again?
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