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Karel van der Toorn

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  • K L Noll
    Snip And thank you, Niels Peter, for the infromation that Karel Van der Toorn s book is out now. I d been waiting for that. * Several weeks ago, Jim West
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 2, 2007
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      Snip
      And thank you, Niels Peter, for the infromation that Karel Van der Toorn's book is out now. I'd been waiting for that.

      *
      Several weeks ago, Jim West attempted to start a thread about this book here on this list, and there were no takers. I am still keen to hear some comments about it. I obtained and devoured the book the instant I'd heard about it, but was disappointed, as it seems to be rather conventional. But that is my view. I would like to hear what others think of this volume.

      Shalom,
      K. L. Noll
      Brandon University
      Brandon, Manitoba

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Peter T. Daniels
      According to the label on the copy I bought yesterday at Borders in Ft. Lee, NJ, it s been in the store since June 6! The Introduction seems aimed at a
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 3, 2007
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        According to the label on the copy I bought yesterday at Borders in Ft. Lee, NJ, it's been in the store since June 6!

        The Introduction seems aimed at a non-scholarly audience. It's rather annoying that there are 100 pages of endnotes, most of them contentful. There's no excuse in the era of word processing not to use footnotes!
        --
        Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...

        ----- Original Message ----
        From: K L Noll <KLNoll@...>
        To: ANE-2 <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, November 2, 2007 7:01:58 PM
        Subject: [ANE-2] Karel van der Toorn

        Snip
        And thank you, Niels Peter, for the infromation that Karel Van der Toorn's book is out now. I'd been waiting for that.

        *
        Several weeks ago, Jim West attempted to start a thread about this book here on this list, and there were no takers. I am still keen to hear some comments about it. I obtained and devoured the book the instant I'd heard about it, but was disappointed, as it seems to be rather conventional. But that is my view. I would like to hear what others think of this volume.
      • Niels Peter Lemche
        Peter, It is s stupid publisher who demands endnotes. I have resisted these sirens so far. The book is a kind of curate s egg: Good in parts! Niels Peter
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 3, 2007
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          Peter,

          It is s stupid publisher who demands endnotes. I have resisted these sirens so far.

          The book is a kind of curate's egg: Good in parts!

          Niels Peter Lemche




          -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
          Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Peter T. Daniels
          Sendt: 3. november 2007 14:40
          Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Emne: Re: [ANE-2] Karel van der Toorn

          According to the label on the copy I bought yesterday at Borders in Ft. Lee, NJ, it's been in the store since June 6!

          The Introduction seems aimed at a non-scholarly audience. It's rather annoying that there are 100 pages of endnotes, most of them contentful. There's no excuse in the era of word processing not to use footnotes!
          --
          Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...

          ----- Original Message ----
          From: K L Noll <KLNoll@...>
          To: ANE-2 <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, November 2, 2007 7:01:58 PM
          Subject: [ANE-2] Karel van der Toorn

          Snip
          And thank you, Niels Peter, for the infromation that Karel Van der Toorn's book is out now. I'd been waiting for that.

          *
          Several weeks ago, Jim West attempted to start a thread about this book here on this list, and there were no takers. I am still keen to hear some comments about it. I obtained and devoured the book the instant I'd heard about it, but was disappointed, as it seems to be rather conventional. But that is my view. I would like to hear what others think of this volume.



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        • Mitch Allen
          As one of those stupid publishers, I will not use footnotes in our books. If it s not important enough to include in the main narrative of the work, I will
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 4, 2007
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            As one of those stupid publishers, I will not use footnotes in our
            books. If it's not important enough to include in the main narrative of
            the work, I will insist that authors put it in end notes. A book should
            be designed to be a unified, linear narrative. The rest might be
            interesting to a few specialists like yourselves, but should not
            interrupt the general flow of the argument and can get relegated to the
            back of the book.
            mitch allen
            Stupid Publisher
            Left Coast Press, Inc.

            Mitch Allen
            Publisher
            Left Coast Press, Inc.
            1630 N. Main Street, #400
            Walnut Creek, California 94596
            925 935-3380 phone and fax
            mitch@...
            www.LCoastPress.com
          • Peter T. Daniels
            Then you have no concern for the convenience of the reader. And your conception of the purpose of footnotes is, shall we say, unusual. Every so often I have
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 4, 2007
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              Then you have no concern for the convenience of the reader.

              And your conception of the purpose of footnotes is, shall we say, unusual. Every so often I have encountered a book where stuff that belongs in the notes has been shoehorned into the text, and while the information may be vitally important, it distracts from the argument of the text.

              Many years ago, the University of Chicago Press published John Boswell's *Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality* [I can never be sure of the correct order of the three elements!], one of the first academic books on the subject. The Press desperately wanted to use endnotes (in those days, endnotes were considerably cheaper to produce than footnotes), so that they could issue a paperback that would supposedly appeal to the general reader by omitting the apparatus. The author, however, insisted on footnotes and somehow prevailed. The Press was astonished, an editor told me, at the reception the book received ("with footnotes in eighteen languages!" or something like that was a common refrain in the gay press), and all thought of a dumbed-down popular edition was abandoned.

              It's really shocking that Harvard UP has put hundreds of contentful notes at the back of the book.

              Another option, of course, is to have both contentful footnotes and reference-only endnotes.
              --
              Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...

              ----- Original Message ----
              From: Mitch Allen <leftcoastpress@...>
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2007 5:11:29 PM
              Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn

              As one of those stupid publishers, I will not use footnotes in our
              books. If it's not important enough to include in the main narrative of
              the work, I will insist that authors put it in end notes. A book should
              be designed to be a unified, linear narrative. The rest might be
              interesting to a few specialists like yourselves, but should not
              interrupt the general flow of the argument and can get relegated to the
              back of the book.
            • George F Somsel
              I find such an attitude on the part of a publisher totally unconscionable. As an inveterate reader of notes I find it irritating to be required to go to a
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
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                I find such an attitude on the part of a publisher totally unconscionable. As an inveterate reader of notes I find it irritating to be required to go to a different section of the book to read the content of a note which should be right before my eyes. It becomes necessary to insert a bookmark in the notes section and advance it as I proceed through the book. I would say that the self-adopted description of "stupid publisher" is quite appropriate since it is based on a spurious justification of unalloyed laziness on the part of the publisher who is simply attempting to avoid the effort necessary to properly lay out the book.

                I would advise all authors to avoid the use of a TYRANICAL and LAZY publisher who is so STUPID as to insist upon endnotes rather than footnotes. I am currently working on a manuscript myself and fully intend to make the requirement that footnotes be used rather than endnotes a prime consideration. I might go so far as to publish it myself if I should fail to find a publisher who is accomodating. As a reader I hesitate to purchase a book with endnotes. I would recommend that when a book with endnotes is found that the potential buyer NOT BUY it but rather proceed to the library to read it. Perhaps is publishers find that their sales volume is impacted because of this policy they will reconsider.

                george
                gfsomsel

                Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                defend the truth till death.

                - Jan Hus
                _________



                ----- Original Message ----
                From: Mitch Allen <leftcoastpress@...>
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2007 5:11:29 PM
                Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn

                As one of those stupid publishers, I will not use footnotes in our
                books. If it's not important enough to include in the main narrative of
                the work, I will insist that authors put it in end notes. A book should
                be designed to be a unified, linear narrative. The rest might be
                interesting to a few specialists like yourselves, but should not
                interrupt the general flow of the argument and can get relegated to the
                back of the book.
                mitch allen
                Stupid Publisher
                Left Coast Press, Inc.

                Mitch Allen
                Publisher
                Left Coast Press, Inc.
                1630 N. Main Street, #400
                Walnut Creek, California 94596
                925 935-3380 phone and fax
                mitch@LCoastPress. com
                www.LCoastPress. com



                __________________________________________________
                Do You Yahoo!?
                Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                http://mail.yahoo.com

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Michael Balter
                I don t post very often to this group, but is this the kind of nasty and abusive stuff that is allowed here by our moderators, attacking people as stupid and
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
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                  I don't post very often to this group, but is this the kind of nasty and
                  abusive stuff that is allowed here by our moderators, attacking people as
                  stupid and lazy? We need a little less psychodrama and sanctimonious
                  self-righteousness on this list.

                  As for the issues at hand, Mitch Allen published the paperback of my book
                  about Catalhoyuk, The Goddess and the Bull, and having the notes at the end
                  works very well. As a reader, I simply keep a bookmark or a post-it with the
                  notes and flip back when I feel strongly enough that I need to see it, which
                  is not always. This way I have the choice.

                  best, Michael Balter

                  --
                  www.michaelbalter.com

                  ******************************************
                  Michael Balter
                  Contributing Correspondent, Science
                  michael.balter@...
                  ******************************************


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jim West
                  ... Actually in my experience its more annoying and interrupts the flow when I have to stick my finger between the pages, flip to the back of the book, find
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
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                    Mitch Allen wrote:
                    > As one of those stupid publishers, I will not use footnotes in our
                    > books. If it's not important enough to include in the main narrative of
                    > the work, I will insist that authors put it in end notes. A book should
                    > be designed to be a unified, linear narrative. The rest might be
                    > interesting to a few specialists like yourselves, but should not
                    > interrupt the general flow of the argument and can get relegated to the
                    > back of the book.
                    > mitch allen
                    > Stupid Publisher
                    > Left Coast Press, Inc.


                    Actually in my experience its more annoying and interrupts the flow when
                    I have to stick my finger between the pages, flip to the back of the
                    book, find the note, and then turn back. It's much, much easier to look
                    at the bottom of a page than it is to play page gymnastics.

                    --
                    Jim West, ThD

                    http://drjewest.googlepages.com/ -- Biblical Studies Resources
                    http://drjimwest.wordpress.com -- Weblog
                  • victor
                    Well with the advent of electronic books we will soon have the option of viewing notes either as footnotes or endnotes at the click of the mouse. Quite
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
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                      Well with the advent of electronic books we will soon have the option of
                      viewing notes either as footnotes or endnotes at the click of the mouse.
                      Quite frankly, although I personally prefer footnotes, I do sometimes like
                      to read an article from beginning to end without the footnotes interfering
                      with the main narrative. Right now I'm reading an article by the late
                      Throkild Jacobsen who was a master at writing major contributions in his
                      footnotes, using the article itself as just something on which to hang them.
                      Although I might like to see his references in footnotes, the articles
                      embedded in the footnotes are better read separately.

                      Best,

                      Victor Hurowitz

                      BGU



                      _____

                      From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                      George F Somsel
                      Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 11:14 AM
                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn



                      I find such an attitude on the part of a publisher totally unconscionable.
                      As an inveterate reader of notes I find it irritating to be required to go
                      to a different section of the book to read the content of a note which
                      should be right before my eyes. It becomes necessary to insert a bookmark in
                      the notes section and advance it as I proceed through the book. I would say
                      that the self-adopted description of "stupid publisher" is quite appropriate
                      since it is based on a spurious justification of unalloyed laziness on the
                      part of the publisher who is simply attempting to avoid the effort necessary
                      to properly lay out the book.

                      I would advise all authors to avoid the use of a TYRANICAL and LAZY
                      publisher who is so STUPID as to insist upon endnotes rather than footnotes.
                      I am currently working on a manuscript myself and fully intend to make the
                      requirement that footnotes be used rather than endnotes a prime
                      consideration. I might go so far as to publish it myself if I should fail to
                      find a publisher who is accomodating. As a reader I hesitate to purchase a
                      book with endnotes. I would recommend that when a book with endnotes is
                      found that the potential buyer NOT BUY it but rather proceed to the library
                      to read it. Perhaps is publishers find that their sales volume is impacted
                      because of this policy they will reconsider.

                      george
                      gfsomsel

                      Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                      learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                      defend the truth till death.

                      - Jan Hus
                      _________

                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: Mitch Allen <leftcoastpress@ <mailto:leftcoastpress%40sbcglobal.net>
                      sbcglobal.net>
                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                      Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2007 5:11:29 PM
                      Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn

                      As one of those stupid publishers, I will not use footnotes in our
                      books. If it's not important enough to include in the main narrative of
                      the work, I will insist that authors put it in end notes. A book should
                      be designed to be a unified, linear narrative. The rest might be
                      interesting to a few specialists like yourselves, but should not
                      interrupt the general flow of the argument and can get relegated to the
                      back of the book.
                      mitch allen
                      Stupid Publisher
                      Left Coast Press, Inc.

                      Mitch Allen
                      Publisher
                      Left Coast Press, Inc.
                      1630 N. Main Street, #400
                      Walnut Creek, California 94596
                      925 935-3380 phone and fax
                      mitch@LCoastPress. com
                      www.LCoastPress. com

                      __________________________________________________
                      Do You Yahoo!?
                      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                      http://mail. <http://mail.yahoo.com> yahoo.com

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Peter T. Daniels
                      That s why they re at the bottom of the page! (And not interspersed within the text.) Benno Landsberger was famously doing it that way a generation before
                      Message 10 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
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                        That's why they're at the bottom of the page! (And not interspersed within the text.) Benno Landsberger was famously doing it that way a generation before Jacobsen.

                        "Current Trends in Linguistics" is a 14-volume series of very large books published between 1960 and about 1976 that surveyed the entire field, and footnotes were used throughout -- with one exception: the great Romance philologist and historical linguist Yakov Malkiel was famous for his extensive and invaluable notes, and they are so long that they are printed as endnotes.
                        --
                        Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...

                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: victor <victor@...>
                        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, November 5, 2007 6:39:51 AM
                        Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn

                        Well with the advent of electronic books we will soon have the option of
                        viewing notes either as footnotes or endnotes at the click of the mouse.
                        Quite frankly, although I personally prefer footnotes, I do sometimes like
                        to read an article from beginning to end without the footnotes interfering
                        with the main narrative. Right now I'm reading an article by the late
                        Throkild Jacobsen who was a master at writing major contributions in his
                        footnotes, using the article itself as just something on which to hang them.
                        Although I might like to see his references in footnotes, the articles
                        embedded in the footnotes are better read separately.
                      • victor
                        Far be it from me to come to the defense on someone on ANE, but as I remember the invectives in the initial letter in this thread were anonymous, and not ad
                        Message 11 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
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                          Far be it from me to come to the defense on someone on ANE, but as I
                          remember the invectives in the initial letter in this thread were anonymous,
                          and not ad hominem, meaning that the person under attack is someone we all
                          hate but certainly don't see in ourselves, so they are OK.

                          Victor Hurowitz

                          BGU



                          _____

                          From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                          Michael Balter
                          Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 12:25 PM
                          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn



                          I don't post very often to this group, but is this the kind of nasty and
                          abusive stuff that is allowed here by our moderators, attacking people as
                          stupid and lazy? We need a little less psychodrama and sanctimonious
                          self-righteousness on this list.

                          As for the issues at hand, Mitch Allen published the paperback of my book
                          about Catalhoyuk, The Goddess and the Bull, and having the notes at the end
                          works very well. As a reader, I simply keep a bookmark or a post-it with the
                          notes and flip back when I feel strongly enough that I need to see it, which
                          is not always. This way I have the choice.

                          best, Michael Balter

                          --
                          www.michaelbalter.com

                          ******************************************
                          Michael Balter
                          Contributing Correspondent, Science
                          michael.balter@ <mailto:michael.balter%40gmail.com> gmail.com
                          ******************************************

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Mikey Brass
                          ... A former supervisor - Judy Sealy (of Blombos Cave fame) - gave me what I consider to be very pertinent advice a decade ago: if it is not worth including in
                          Message 12 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
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                            Michael Balter wrote:

                            > As for the issues at hand, Mitch Allen published the paperback of my book
                            > about Catalhoyuk, The Goddess and the Bull, and having the notes at the end
                            > works very well. As a reader, I simply keep a bookmark or a post-it with the
                            > notes and flip back when I feel strongly enough that I need to see it, which
                            > is not always. This way I have the choice.

                            A former supervisor - Judy Sealy (of Blombos Cave fame) - gave me what I
                            consider to be very pertinent advice a decade ago: if it is not worth
                            including in the text body or if you cannot find place forit, then it is
                            not worth saying. The result is a clear, flowing text on pages whose
                            layout is not interrupted by footnotes.

                            I recognise that sometimes endnotes are neccessary, but by and large
                            that information can be included anyways in Supplementaries in articles
                            and dissertations.

                            --
                            Best, Mikey Brass
                            Forthcoming doctoral candidate, University College London
                            "The Antiquity of Man" http://www.antiquityofman.com
                            Book: "The Antiquity of Man: Artifactual, fossil and gene records explored"

                            - !ke e: /xarra //ke
                            ("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
                          • Trudy Kawami
                            Please remember to change the subject heading when the content of the post changes. That, too, is a kindness to readers. Trudy Kawami
                            Message 13 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
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                              Please remember to change the subject heading when the content of the
                              post changes. That, too, is a kindness to readers.

                              Trudy Kawami



                              ________________________________

                              From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                              Peter T. Daniels
                              Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 7:28 AM
                              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn



                              That's why they're at the bottom of the page! (And not interspersed
                              within the text.) Benno Landsberger was famously doing it that way a
                              generation before Jacobsen.

                              "Current Trends in Linguistics" is a 14-volume series of very large
                              books published between 1960 and about 1976 that surveyed the entire
                              field, and footnotes were used throughout -- with one exception: the
                              great Romance philologist and historical linguist Yakov Malkiel was
                              famous for his extensive and invaluable notes, and they are so long that
                              they are printed as endnotes.
                              --
                              Peter T. Daniels grammatim@... <mailto:grammatim%40verizon.net>


                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: victor <victor@...
                              <mailto:victor%40bgumail.bgu.ac.il> >
                              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Monday, November 5, 2007 6:39:51 AM
                              Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn

                              Well with the advent of electronic books we will soon have the option of

                              viewing notes either as footnotes or endnotes at the click of the mouse.

                              Quite frankly, although I personally prefer footnotes, I do sometimes
                              like
                              to read an article from beginning to end without the footnotes
                              interfering
                              with the main narrative. Right now I'm reading an article by the late
                              Throkild Jacobsen who was a master at writing major contributions in his

                              footnotes, using the article itself as just something on which to hang
                              them.
                              Although I might like to see his references in footnotes, the articles
                              embedded in the footnotes are better read separately.





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • victor
                              Maybe someone should footnote the heading Victor BGU _____ From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Trudy Kawami Sent: Monday,
                              Message 14 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
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                                Maybe someone should footnote the heading

                                Victor

                                BGU



                                _____

                                From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                Trudy Kawami
                                Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 5:31 PM
                                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com; ANE-2@yahoogroups.com; ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [ANE-2] Subject heading changes



                                Please remember to change the subject heading when the content of the
                                post changes. That, too, is a kindness to readers.

                                Trudy Kawami

                                ________________________________

                                From: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                                [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com] On Behalf
                                Of
                                Peter T. Daniels
                                Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 7:28 AM
                                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn

                                That's why they're at the bottom of the page! (And not interspersed
                                within the text.) Benno Landsberger was famously doing it that way a
                                generation before Jacobsen.

                                "Current Trends in Linguistics" is a 14-volume series of very large
                                books published between 1960 and about 1976 that surveyed the entire
                                field, and footnotes were used throughout -- with one exception: the
                                great Romance philologist and historical linguist Yakov Malkiel was
                                famous for his extensive and invaluable notes, and they are so long that
                                they are printed as endnotes.
                                --
                                Peter T. Daniels grammatim@verizon. <mailto:grammatim%40verizon.net> net
                                <mailto:grammatim%40verizon.net>

                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: victor <victor@bgumail. <mailto:victor%40bgumail.bgu.ac.il> bgu.ac.il
                                <mailto:victor%40bgumail.bgu.ac.il> >
                                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                                <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Monday, November 5, 2007 6:39:51 AM
                                Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: Karel van der Toorn

                                Well with the advent of electronic books we will soon have the option of

                                viewing notes either as footnotes or endnotes at the click of the mouse.

                                Quite frankly, although I personally prefer footnotes, I do sometimes
                                like
                                to read an article from beginning to end without the footnotes
                                interfering
                                with the main narrative. Right now I'm reading an article by the late
                                Throkild Jacobsen who was a master at writing major contributions in his

                                footnotes, using the article itself as just something on which to hang
                                them.
                                Although I might like to see his references in footnotes, the articles
                                embedded in the footnotes are better read separately.

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Stern, Richard H.
                                Is it necessarily black or white - that is, only two possibilities? I.e., important enough to put in text or else consigned to the back of the book? Some
                                Message 15 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
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                                  Is it necessarily black or white - that is, only two possibilities?
                                  I.e., important enough to put in text or else consigned to the back of
                                  the book?

                                  Some writers use textual footnotes in which they elaborate on points,
                                  but the digression might break up the flow of the main narrative in a
                                  way that troubles those skimming through that part of the text. It is
                                  one thing to consign purely citational notes to the back of the bus, but
                                  with textual digressions put into footnote in order to keep main text
                                  from becoming disjointed, it needs to be at the bottom of the page so
                                  that readers can take a quick look to determine whether they wish to
                                  pursue that particular digression. Some will, while others won't. As a
                                  reader, whose business stupid publishers presumably need to attract to
                                  keep the wolf from the door, I find those publications that banish only
                                  citations to the back easier to read and more likely to please me than
                                  publications that use 100% endnotes.

                                  What would be wrong with having enough flexibility to banish only
                                  citations? And how do you explain the very common habit of citing
                                  Biblical references in parentheses in text? E.g., "(Jer. 30:29-32)."

                                  =====================================
                                  Best regards.

                                  Richard H. Stern
                                  rstern@... rstern@...
                                  Washington, DC 20036
                                  http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                                  =====================================
                                • Sara Orel
                                  ... I find that it depends very much on the content of the article. An article on epigraphy would often be useless without extensive footnotes. It also
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
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                                    At 08:12 AM 11/5/2007, Mikey Brass wrote:

                                    >A former supervisor - Judy Sealy (of Blombos Cave fame) - gave me what I
                                    >consider to be very pertinent advice a decade ago: if it is not worth
                                    >including in the text body or if you cannot find place forit, then it is
                                    >not worth saying. The result is a clear, flowing text on pages whose
                                    >layout is not interrupted by footnotes.

                                    I find that it depends very much on the content of the article. An
                                    article on epigraphy would often be useless without extensive
                                    footnotes. It also depends on the discipline and who your supervisor
                                    was. I have found myself in historical/language papers providing
                                    extensive footnotes. An archaeological NARRATIVE can sometimes be
                                    written without them (if you use parenthetical citations, which not
                                    all journals do), but publication of objects should include footnotes
                                    (or endnotes, but in this case I would argue footnotes for ease of
                                    use) for more extensive comparanda. I think we may all be talking
                                    about our own fields here, rather than about the publications of
                                    tangential fields. And thus we are not agreeing.

                                    Sara

                                    Sara E. Orel, Ph.D.
                                    Professor of Art History
                                    Art Department
                                    Truman State University
                                    Kirksville, MO 63501
                                    (660) 785-4419

                                    orel@...

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • dwashbur@nyx.net
                                    After having it in my library for some 20 years, I m finally getting around to reading Shirer s Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. At least in the paperback
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Nov 5, 2007
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                                      After having it in my library for some 20 years, I'm finally getting around to reading Shirer's
                                      "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich." At least in the paperback edition I'm reading, this is how
                                      the notes are done. Numbered notes are endnotes and are limited strictly to citations, while
                                      "further information" notes that elaborate, say, on what ultimately happened to a certain
                                      person mentioned in the text, are footnotes marked by asterisks, bullets, daggers and all
                                      that paraphernalia. I find this a very useful setup, but if a publisher must limit to one or the
                                      other, I will prefer footnotes every time, since I have no way of knowing what is going to be a
                                      comment and what is going to be a citation. There's often a lot of info in those notes that
                                      isn't strictly relevant to the text at hand, and I greatly prefer having them right there on the
                                      page so I can evaluate them on the fly without potentially losing my place in the text.

                                      On 5 Nov 2007 at 11:53, Stern, Richard H. wrote:

                                      > Is it necessarily black or white - that is, only two possibilities?
                                      > I.e., important enough to put in text or else consigned to the back of
                                      > the book?
                                      >
                                      > Some writers use textual footnotes in which they elaborate on points,
                                      > but the digression might break up the flow of the main narrative in a
                                      > way that troubles those skimming through that part of the text. It is
                                      > one thing to consign purely citational notes to the back of the bus, but
                                      > with textual digressions put into footnote in order to keep main text
                                      > from becoming disjointed, it needs to be at the bottom of the page so
                                      > that readers can take a quick look to determine whether they wish to
                                      > pursue that particular digression. Some will, while others won't. As a
                                      > reader, whose business stupid publishers presumably need to attract to
                                      > keep the wolf from the door, I find those publications that banish only
                                      > citations to the back easier to read and more likely to please me than
                                      > publications that use 100% endnotes.
                                      >
                                      > What would be wrong with having enough flexibility to banish only
                                      > citations? And how do you explain the very common habit of citing
                                      > Biblical references in parentheses in text? E.g., "(Jer. 30:29-32)."
                                      >
                                      > =====================================
                                      > Best regards.
                                      >
                                      > Richard H. Stern
                                      > rstern@... rstern@...
                                      > Washington, DC 20036
                                      > http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                                      > =====================================
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
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                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
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                                      >


                                      Dave Washburn
                                      Why do it right when you can do it again?
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