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Re: [ANE-2] question about translations of Sumerian

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  • Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
    Being presently remote from libraries, I cannot locate a better alternative to the edition cum translation Joanna pointed out ; what I may add, while
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 1, 2007
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      Being presently remote from libraries, I cannot locate a better alternative
      to the edition cum translation Joanna pointed out ; what I may add, while
      gratefully acknowledging the importance of ETCSL, is that both Falkenstein &
      von Soden's Sumerische und akkadische Hymnen und Gebete (Zurich, Artemis,
      1953) and M.-J. Seux' Hymnes et prières aux dieux de Babylonie et d'Assyrie
      (Paris, Cerf, 1976) remain useful. Joanna, you could try to check if the
      texts you are interested in appear in these two anthologies. For updates,
      assuming that you have some command of German, there is (e.g.) H. Hartmann,
      Die Musik der sumerischen Kultur (Diss. Franfurt am Main, 1960), 184-244,
      and Wilcke, apud Festschrift Jacobsen, 250-292.

      J.-F. Nardelli
    • victor
      I too, living in the desert, am remote from good libraries, which makes ETCSL all the more welcome. You can read it on the beach if you have wireless internet,
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 1, 2007
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        I too, living in the desert, am remote from good libraries, which makes
        ETCSL all the more welcome. You can read it on the beach if you have
        wireless internet, and from your home or office if your internet is
        landbound. Of SAHG and HP are still valuable, not having said or even
        implied that they are not, but I don’t think they are on line yet so again
        they are not available to anyone without a library near by.

        Victor

        BGU



        _____

        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
        Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 12:23 PM
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [ANE-2] question about translations of Sumerian



        Being presently remote from libraries, I cannot locate a better alternative
        to the edition cum translation Joanna pointed out ; what I may add, while
        gratefully acknowledging the importance of ETCSL, is that both Falkenstein &

        von Soden's Sumerische und akkadische Hymnen und Gebete (Zurich, Artemis,
        1953) and M.-J. Seux' Hymnes et prières aux dieux de Babylonie et d'Assyrie
        (Paris, Cerf, 1976) remain useful. Joanna, you could try to check if the
        texts you are interested in appear in these two anthologies. For updates,
        assuming that you have some command of German, there is (e.g.) H. Hartmann,
        Die Musik der sumerischen Kultur (Diss. Franfurt am Main, 1960), 184-244,
        and Wilcke, apud Festschrift Jacobsen, 250-292.

        J.-F. Nardelli





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Joanna Sheldon
        Thank you, Victor, for confirming my suspicion. I spend inordinate amounts of time on the ETCSL -- love the place! But I m always hoping to find more material,
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 1, 2007
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          Thank you, Victor, for confirming my suspicion.

          I spend inordinate amounts of time on the ETCSL -- love the place! But I'm
          always hoping to find more material, not posted there.

          Best,
          Joanna

          At 16:32 31-10-07, you wrote:
          >Dear Joanna,
          >I don't know the book you are talking about, but in 1920 Sumerian was not
          >very well known, and in any case, nearly 90 years in any academic
          >discipline should make certain things out date. Would you go to a
          >brain surgeon or a heart surgeon who finished his training in 1921?
          >Cynicism aside,
          >If you are looking for up to date, reliable translations of Sumerian
          >literature you can go to the Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian
          >Literature. Google ETCSL and you're there.
          >Best, and good luck,
          >Victor Hurowitz
          >BGU




          C. Joanna Sheldon, PhD
          Hastings, UK
          doing independent research on the roots of Western esotericism
        • Joanna Sheldon
          Dear Jean-Fabrice, Thank you for your detailed response. I ve read Kramer, and notice that his translations differ from the modern ones. I just bought a copy
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 1, 2007
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            Dear Jean-Fabrice,

            Thank you for your detailed response.

            I've read Kramer, and notice that his translations differ from the modern
            ones. I just bought a copy of the Jacobsen, who writes Enkik instead of
            Enki - so I am wary of anything earlier. It puzzles me that Gorgias Press
            is republishing the Vanderburgh. Perhaps it has something more to
            contribute than the translations.

            You've brought up a question that's been in the back of my mind for a
            while: Is there anything in Black, Cunningham, et. al. that's not on the
            ETCSL? I haven't managed to take a look at it, yet.

            Thanks again,
            Joanna


            At 22:40 31-10-07, you wrote:
            >Dear Joanna,
            >
            > with very few exceptions, you can consider outdated or perverse
            > everything in Sumerian scholarship, be it editions of texts or
            > philological lore, that was published before the 1950s. The relative
            > paucity of literary material at hand (before S. N. Kramer really stirred
            > things up in the field of poetry, starting from 1946 and his Sumerian
            > Mythology. A Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement in the Third
            > Millenium B.C.) and inadequate familiarity with the Sumerian language
            > conspired to obscure the forms and structures of belles lettres (the
            > state of affairs before the 1940s is surveyed by C. Wilcke, "Formale
            > Gesichtspunkte in der sumerischen Literatur", Assyriological Studies 20,
            > 1976 = Festschrift Th. Jacobsen, 205 sq.) ; as a consequence, literary
            > pieces were nearly always understood in terms of mythological or
            > historical sources and not as works of craftsmanship. Only with the
            > reconstruction of, and commentary on, some major compositions, starting
            > with Jacobsen and Kramer's epoch-making publication of the myth of Inanna
            > and Bilulu in 1953 (JNES 12, 160-187 = Jacobsen, Towards the Image of
            > Tammuz and Other Essays on Mesopotamian History and Culture. Edited by W.
            > L. Moran [Cambridge (Mass.), Harvard U. P., 1970], 52-71 [text] and
            > 334-353 [notes]), was it feasible to attempt any sound analyse of
            > literary structure and formal style, without which no interpretation
            > could be more than (informed but intuitive) guesswork ; in the same time,
            > the scientific foundations of Sumerian grammar, first consolidated by A.
            > Poebel (Grundzüge der Sumerischen Grammatik, 1923), were put on firmer
            > grounds by A. Falkenstein and his disciples (Falkenstein, Grammatik der
            > Sprache Gudeas von Lagas, 2 vol., 1949-1950, and Das Sumerische, 1959).
            > See further J. A. Black, G. Cunningham, E. Robson & G. Zolyomi, The
            > Literature of Ancient Sumer (Oxford, 2004), lvii-lx.
            >
            >I hope this helps.
            >
            >J.-F. Nardelli.
            >
            >
            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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            >This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
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            C. Joanna Sheldon, PhD
            Hastings, UK
            doing independent research on the roots of Western esotericism
          • Joanna Sheldon
            Thank you, J.-F. This is great stuff. It s good to know Falkenstein is reliable. Sadly I m not having much luck finding the books you suggest at the British
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 1, 2007
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              Thank you, J.-F. This is great stuff.

              It's good to know Falkenstein is reliable. Sadly I'm not having much luck
              finding the books you suggest at the British Library, but BL does have
              Burkert and Stolz Hymnen der Alten Welt im Kulturvergleich which includes
              D.O. Edzard's Sumerische und akkadische Hymnen.

              I'll have to wait to look up some of the others till I return to Ithaca (an
              appendage to Cornell U.!) this winter... I see Cornell has all of them.

              Regards,
              Joanna

              At 10:22 01-11-07, you wrote:
              >Being presently remote from libraries, I cannot locate a better alternative
              >to the edition cum translation Joanna pointed out ; what I may add, while
              >gratefully acknowledging the importance of ETCSL, is that both Falkenstein &
              >von Soden's Sumerische und akkadische Hymnen und Gebete (Zurich, Artemis,
              >1953) and M.-J. Seux' Hymnes et prières aux dieux de Babylonie et d'Assyrie
              >(Paris, Cerf, 1976) remain useful. Joanna, you could try to check if the
              >texts you are interested in appear in these two anthologies. For updates,
              >assuming that you have some command of German, there is (e.g.) H. Hartmann,
              >Die Musik der sumerischen Kultur (Diss. Franfurt am Main, 1960), 184-244,
              >and Wilcke, apud Festschrift Jacobsen, 250-292.
              >
              >J.-F. Nardelli
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >__________ NOD32 2545 (20070923) Information __________
              >
              >This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
              >http://www.eset.com

              C. Joanna Sheldon, PhD
              Hastings, UK
              doing independent research on the roots of Western esotericism
            • Christopher Conlan
              Joanna, Since you are in London, you might try the School of Oriental and African Studies library, The Institute of Archaeology (UCL) library, and/or the main
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 1, 2007
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                Joanna,

                Since you are in London, you might try the School of Oriental and African Studies library, The Institute of Archaeology (UCL) library, and/or the main University College London Library- between them they will have all of the books that you need/want concerning Sumerian. As far as I recall, all of the libraries provide access for visiting scholars.

                Sincerely,

                Christopher Conlan

                ----- Original Message ----
                From: Joanna Sheldon <tadorne@...>
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, 1 November, 2007 11:01:16 AM
                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] question about translations of Sumerian

                Thank you, J.-F. This is great stuff.

                It's good to know Falkenstein is reliable. Sadly I'm not having much luck
                finding the books you suggest at the British Library, but BL does have
                Burkert and Stolz Hymnen der Alten Welt im Kulturvergleich which includes
                D.O. Edzard's Sumerische und akkadische Hymnen.

                I'll have to wait to look up some of the others till I return to Ithaca (an
                appendage to Cornell U.!) this winter... I see Cornell has all of them.

                Regards,
                Joanna

                At 10:22 01-11-07, you wrote:
                >Being presently remote from libraries, I cannot locate a better alternative
                >to the edition cum translation Joanna pointed out ; what I may add, while
                >gratefully acknowledging the importance of ETCSL, is that both Falkenstein &
                >von Soden's Sumerische und akkadische Hymnen und Gebete (Zurich, Artemis,
                >1953) and M.-J. Seux' Hymnes et prières aux dieux de Babylonie et d'Assyrie
                >(Paris, Cerf, 1976) remain useful. Joanna, you could try to check if the
                >texts you are interested in appear in these two anthologies. For updates,
                >assuming that you have some command of German, there is (e.g.) H. Hartmann,
                >Die Musik der sumerischen Kultur (Diss. Franfurt am Main, 1960), 184-244,
                >and Wilcke, apud Festschrift Jacobsen, 250-292.
                >
                >J.-F. Nardelli
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >__________ NOD32 2545 (20070923) Information __________
                >
                >This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
                >http://www.eset com

                C. Joanna Sheldon, PhD
                Hastings, UK
                doing independent research on the roots of Western esotericism





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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Eric J. M. Smith
                ... I suspect that this is just Jacobsen s way of indicating that Enki s name actually had a final consonant which was not pronounced word-finally. You can
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 1, 2007
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                  On 11/1/07, Joanna Sheldon <tadorne@...> wrote:
                  > I've read Kramer, and notice that his translations differ from the modern
                  > ones. I just bought a copy of the Jacobsen, who writes Enkik instead of
                  > Enki - so I am wary of anything earlier.

                  I suspect that this is just Jacobsen's way of indicating that Enki's
                  name actually had a final consonant which was not pronounced
                  word-finally. You can see the -k show up when Enki is in the ergative
                  case, were he is usually written [d]en-ki-ke4. It's not that Jacobsen
                  is wrong; he's just being idiosyncratic (or pedantic).

                  Eric J. M. Smith
                  Dept. of Linguistics
                  University of Toronto
                • Richard S. Ellis
                  I studied Sumerian with both of these scholars; it might have been two different languages, their methods were so different. Richard S. Ellis Professor of
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 1, 2007
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                    I studied Sumerian with both of these scholars; it might have been two
                    different languages, their methods were so different.

                    Richard S. Ellis
                    Professor of Archaeology, retired
                    Bryn Mawr college.

                    Eric J. M. Smith wrote:

                    >I suspect that this is just Jacobsen's way of indicating that Enki's
                    >name actually had a final consonant which was not pronounced
                    >word-finally. You can see the -k show up when Enki is in the ergative
                    >case, were he is usually written [d]en-ki-ke4. It's not that Jacobsen
                    >is wrong; he's just being idiosyncratic (or pedantic).
                    >
                    >Eric J. M. Smith
                    >Dept. of Linguistics
                    >University of Toronto
                    >
                    >
                  • JSheldon
                    Thank you, Eric. I notice now that there is a note to this effect in the collection of essays that I m reading. Regards, Joanna Joanna Sheldon, Hastings, UK
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 3, 2007
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                      Thank you, Eric. I notice now that there is a note to this effect in the
                      collection of essays that I'm reading.

                      Regards,
                      Joanna

                      Joanna Sheldon, Hastings, UK


                      At 20:50 01-11-07, you wrote:
                      >On 11/1/07, Joanna Sheldon <tadorne@...> wrote:
                      > > I've read Kramer, and notice that his translations differ from the modern
                      > > ones. I just bought a copy of the Jacobsen, who writes Enkik instead of
                      > > Enki - so I am wary of anything earlier.
                      >
                      >I suspect that this is just Jacobsen's way of indicating that Enki's
                      >name actually had a final consonant which was not pronounced
                      >word-finally. You can see the -k show up when Enki is in the ergative
                      >case, were he is usually written [d]en-ki-ke4. It's not that Jacobsen
                      >is wrong; he's just being idiosyncratic (or pedantic).
                      >
                      >Eric J. M. Smith
                      >Dept. of Linguistics
                      >University of Toronto
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >__________ NOD32 2545 (20070923) Information __________
                      >
                      >This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
                      >http://www.eset.com

                      C. Joanna Sheldon, PhD
                      Hastings, UK
                      doing independent research on the roots of Western esotericism
                    • JSheldon
                      ... I envy you! Joanna C. Joanna Sheldon, PhD Hastings, UK doing independent research on the roots of Western esotericism
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 3, 2007
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                        At 21:55 01-11-07, you wrote:
                        >I studied Sumerian with both of these scholars; it might have been two
                        >different languages, their methods were so different.
                        >
                        >Richard S. Ellis
                        >Professor of Archaeology, retired
                        >Bryn Mawr college.


                        I envy you!

                        Joanna

                        C. Joanna Sheldon, PhD
                        Hastings, UK
                        doing independent research on the roots of Western esotericism
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