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RE: [ANE-2] Norman Golb on the San Diego DSS Catalogue

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  • Laura Bizzarro
    Thank You Nully ... De: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] En nombre de Nully Enviado el: Martes, 30 de Octubre de 2007 05:29 p.m. Para:
    Message 1 of 22 , Oct 31, 2007
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      Thank You Nully

      -----Mensaje original-----
      De: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] En nombre de Nully
      Enviado el: Martes, 30 de Octubre de 2007 05:29 p.m.
      Para: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Asunto: Re: [ANE-2] Norman Golb on the San Diego DSS Catalogue

      Laura:

      There's a list of Dr. Golb's articles here:
      http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/is/

      This may be the article of interest:

      http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/projects/scr/Recent_Strategies_2007.pdf

      Nully Smith




      Laura Bizzarro wrote:
      > Hello
      >
      > The link is broken, There isn’t a pdf file in this location. I am
      > interested in the article of Norman Golb:
      >
      > Golb, Norman.
      <http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il/orion/news/GolbRecent2007.pdf>
      > The Qumran-Essene Theory and recent strategies employed in its defense.
      > (2007 Article). But the link is broken.
      >
      > Lic. Laura Bizzarro
      >
      > Universidad Católica Argentina
      >
      > <http://www.transoxiana.org/12/bizzarro-mesianismo_qumran.php>
      > http://www.transoxiana.org/12/bizzarro-mesianismo_qumran.php
      > Tel.: 15-6018-1178
      > Email: lafabiwd@...
      > lafabiz@...
      >




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    • Antonio Lombatti
      Archaeologists have discovered the world s most ancient inscription in the Iranian city of Jiroft, near the Halil Roud historical site. The article and the
      Message 2 of 22 , Nov 5, 2007
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        Archaeologists have discovered the world's most ancient inscription in
        the Iranian city of Jiroft, near the Halil Roud historical site.

        The article and the photo are here:

        http://www.cais-soas.com/News/2007/November2007/05-11.htm

        Antonio Lombatti


        ----------------------------------
        http://www.antoniolombatti.it







        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Trudy Kawami
        As with a lot of Iranian archaeological press releases, you need a grain or two or more of salt. The English is via an automatic translation program and the
        Message 3 of 22 , Nov 5, 2007
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          As with a lot of Iranian archaeological press releases, you need a grain
          or two or more of salt. The English is via an automatic translation
          program and the deduction and assumptions are often equally creative.
          Even the location can be difficult to pin down as Jiroft was used for
          the whole area for several years & now Halil Rud (River) is used
          instead. We'll have to wait until the excavation report is published for
          the actual details of the find spot(s) and such.

          Trudy Kawami



          ________________________________

          From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          Antonio Lombatti
          Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 1:03 PM
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [ANE-2] World's Oldest Inscription?



          Archaeologists have discovered the world's most ancient inscription in
          the Iranian city of Jiroft, near the Halil Roud historical site.

          The article and the photo are here:

          http://www.cais-soas.com/News/2007/November2007/05-11.htm
          <http://www.cais-soas.com/News/2007/November2007/05-11.htm>

          Antonio Lombatti

          ----------------------------------
          http://www.antoniolombatti.it <http://www.antoniolombatti.it>

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Groups
          The web site gives no suggestion as to why this may be the world s oldest inscription, or how old it is. I m not imnpressed. Brian Yare ... From:
          Message 4 of 22 , Nov 5, 2007
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            The web site gives no suggestion as to why this may be the world's oldest
            inscription, or how old it is.

            I'm not imnpressed.

            Brian Yare

            -----Original Message-----
            From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
            Antonio Lombatti
            Sent: 05 November 2007 18:03
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [ANE-2] World's Oldest Inscription?


            Archaeologists have discovered the world's most ancient inscription in
            the Iranian city of Jiroft, near the Halil Roud historical site.

            The article and the photo are here:

            http://www.cais-soas.com/News/2007/November2007/05-11.htm

            Antonio Lombatti


            ----------------------------------
            http://www.antoniolombatti.it







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            Yahoo! Groups Links





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            21:37
          • Antonio Lombatti
            It is possible that five words have been added to our knowledge of the ancient Persian language by the recent discovery of a stone inscription on Khark Island
            Message 5 of 22 , Nov 21, 2007
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              It is possible that five words have been added to our knowledge of the
              ancient Persian language by the recent discovery of a stone
              inscription on Khark Island in the Persian Gulf, the Persian service
              of CHN reported on Tuesday.

              The inscription's authenticity is, however, still doubtful.

              The full article can be read here:
              http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=157573

              Antonio Lombatti



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            • Rolf Furuli
              Dear list-members, In R. S. Tomback (1978) A Comparative Semitic Lexicon of the Phoenician and Punic Languages, one reference of RP)M is shades . In S. B.
              Message 6 of 22 , Nov 26, 2007
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                Dear list-members,


                In R. S. Tomback (1978) "A Comparative Semitic Lexicon of the
                Phoenician and Punic Languages,"
                one reference of RP)M is "shades". In S. B. Parker (1997) "Ugaritic
                Narrative Poetry" (p. 196) one reference of RP)M is "the shades of
                the dead".

                The ideas of "preserve; heal" is associated with RP) in Phoenician,
                Ugaritic and other Semitic languages. And the ideas of "loosen, be
                weak" is associated with RPH (Ugaritic: RPY). But what about the idea
                of "shade, shadow"? Is this only an empty phrase that once was
                coined, and which later just have been repeated without containing
                any meaning? Or is there any semantic connection with RP)/ RPH and
                "shade"? What actually are "the shades of the dead"?


                Best regards,

                Rolf Furuli Ph.D
                University of Oslo
              • Peter T. Daniels
                It s a sort of poetic/old-fashioned word for what s becomes of a person when they die -- for instance the inhabitants of Elysium are the shades of the dead.
                Message 7 of 22 , Nov 26, 2007
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                  It's a sort of poetic/old-fashioned word for what's becomes of a person when they die -- for instance the inhabitants of Elysium are the shades of the dead. When Orpheus went to the underworld, he found Euridice among the shades of the dead. Perhaps in the Ugaritic context it's a way of avoiding speaking in English of "souls."
                  --
                  Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...

                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: Rolf Furuli <furuli@...>
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 5:12:50 PM
                  Subject: [ANE-2] Shades

                  Dear list-members,

                  In R. S. Tomback (1978) "A Comparative Semitic Lexicon of the
                  Phoenician and Punic Languages,"
                  one reference of RP)M is "shades". In S. B. Parker (1997) "Ugaritic
                  Narrative Poetry" (p. 196) one reference of RP)M is "the shades of
                  the dead".

                  The ideas of "preserve; heal" is associated with RP) in Phoenician,
                  Ugaritic and other Semitic languages. And the ideas of "loosen, be
                  weak" is associated with RPH (Ugaritic: RPY). But what about the idea
                  of "shade, shadow"? Is this only an empty phrase that once was
                  coined, and which later just have been repeated without containing
                  any meaning? Or is there any semantic connection with RP)/ RPH and
                  "shade"? What actually are "the shades of the dead"?
                • Rolf Furuli
                  Dear Peter, The background for my question is that I have translated many documents from Ugaritic and Phoenician into Norwegian for a book series, and I am
                  Message 8 of 22 , Nov 27, 2007
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                    Dear Peter,

                    The background for my question is that I have translated many
                    documents from Ugaritic and Phoenician into Norwegian for a book
                    series, and I am also going to list some parallels between
                    Ugaritic/Phoenician and Hebrew thought.

                    Could you please tell me which Greek words are used for "shades"? Are
                    they etymologically or semantically related to "shade/shadow"? I know
                    that the Greek word YUCH at a particular time referred to the
                    immortal souls of humans. The corresponding word in Hebrew is NP$,
                    and in the Hebrew Bible it refers to humans, animals, and to life,
                    but never clearly to something immortal. It is my impression that the
                    same is the case with the Akkadian word NAPI$TU, and the cognates in
                    other old Semitic languages (in modern Hebrew and Arabic, NP$ can
                    refer to something immortal, though).

                    In Akkadian thought, the ETEMMU (ghost) of a person could haunt the
                    living, but it seems to have been the whole person with body and
                    cloths and weapons that went down to the underworld and existed
                    there, in the land of no return (cf. "Ishtar's descent to the
                    underworld," and Gilgamesh, tablet VII). It also seems to me that the
                    same was true at Ugarit (cf. the last part of the Baal cycle).

                    I have carefully studied almost all the extant Ugaritic documents,
                    but I have not seen anything that could connect the word "shade" with
                    RP) or with the dead. If we cannot connect "shade" with the dead,
                    either etymologically, semantically, or lexically, the whole concept
                    is a fiction and should be abandoned. And in connection with this I
                    hoped to get some insights from the scholars on the ANE-2 list.

                    Best regards,

                    Rolf Furuli Ph.D
                    University of Oslo



                    >It's a sort of poetic/old-fashioned word for what's becomes of a
                    >person when they die -- for instance the inhabitants of Elysium are
                    >the shades of the dead. When Orpheus went to the underworld, he
                    >found Euridice among the shades of the dead. Perhaps in the Ugaritic
                    >context it's a way of avoiding speaking in English of "souls."
                    >--
                    >Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
                    >
                    >----- Original Message ----
                    >From: Rolf Furuli <furuli@...>
                    >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    >Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 5:12:50 PM
                    >Subject: [ANE-2] Shades
                    >
                  • Peter T. Daniels
                    No, I could not; I know nothing of Greek. AIUI, the Repha im have been a topic of discussion since long before the discovery of Ugarit. -- Peter T. Daniels
                    Message 9 of 22 , Nov 27, 2007
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                      No, I could not; I know nothing of Greek. AIUI, the Repha'im have been a topic of discussion since long before the discovery of Ugarit.
                      --
                      Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...

                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: Rolf Furuli <furuli@...>
                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 5:25:09 AM
                      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Shades

                      Dear Peter,

                      The background for my question is that I have translated many
                      documents from Ugaritic and Phoenician into Norwegian for a book
                      series, and I am also going to list some parallels between
                      Ugaritic/Phoenician and Hebrew thought.

                      Could you please tell me which Greek words are used for "shades"? Are
                      they etymologically or semantically related to "shade/shadow" ? I know
                      that the Greek word YUCH at a particular time referred to the
                      immortal souls of humans. The corresponding word in Hebrew is NP$,
                      and in the Hebrew Bible it refers to humans, animals, and to life,
                      but never clearly to something immortal. It is my impression that the
                      same is the case with the Akkadian word NAPI$TU, and the cognates in
                      other old Semitic languages (in modern Hebrew and Arabic, NP$ can
                      refer to something immortal, though).

                      In Akkadian thought, the ETEMMU (ghost) of a person could haunt the
                      living, but it seems to have been the whole person with body and
                      cloths and weapons that went down to the underworld and existed
                      there, in the land of no return (cf. "Ishtar's descent to the
                      underworld," and Gilgamesh, tablet VII). It also seems to me that the
                      same was true at Ugarit (cf. the last part of the Baal cycle).

                      I have carefully studied almost all the extant Ugaritic documents,
                      but I have not seen anything that could connect the word "shade" with
                      RP) or with the dead. If we cannot connect "shade" with the dead,
                      either etymologically, semantically, or lexically, the whole concept
                      is a fiction and should be abandoned. And in connection with this I
                      hoped to get some insights from the scholars on the ANE-2 list.

                      Best regards,

                      Rolf Furuli Ph.D
                      University of Oslo

                      >It's a sort of poetic/old-fashione d word for what's becomes of a
                      >person when they die -- for instance the inhabitants of Elysium are
                      >the shades of the dead. When Orpheus went to the underworld, he
                      >found Euridice among the shades of the dead. Perhaps in the Ugaritic
                      >context it's a way of avoiding speaking in English of "souls."
                    • George F Somsel
                      I apologise for not being able to send the native Greek in this post, but I have been having a problem with my e-mail today. AMENHNOS [ᾰ], ON, also H, ON
                      Message 10 of 22 , Nov 27, 2007
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                        I apologise for not being able to send the native Greek in this post, but I have been having a problem with my e-mail today.

                        AMENHNOS [ᾰ], ON, also H, ON Luc.Gall. 5 Opp.H.2.58: (A- priv., MENOS):—poet. Adj., in Hom. chiefly of ghosts or shades, fleeting, NEKUWN A. KARHNA Od.10.521, al.; of dreams, 19.562; of one wounded, A. EA XALKOIO TUPHiSI Il.5.887; PUGMAIOI Hes.Oxy.1358.18; rare in Trag. (alw.lyr.), A. ANHR, of Ajax, S.Aj.890; NEKUWN A. AGALMA E.Tr.193.

                        Liddell, H. G., Scott, R., Jones, H. S., & McKenzie, R. (1996). A Greek-English lexicon. (81). Oxford; New York: Clarendon Press; Oxford University Press.

                        GHGENHS, ES, Dor. GAGENHS Hdn.Gr.2.419:—earthborn, BOLBOS Xenarch.1.5; of a potter’s vessel, Antiph.182.3; indigenous, BOULALIS S.Fr.792.
                        2. earthborn, of primeval men, EREXQEUS Hdt.8.55; PALAIXQWN A.Supp.250; TOUS EMPROSQEN FUESQAI GHGENEIS KAI MH EC ALLHLWN GENNASQAI Pl.Plt.269b, cf. Arist.GA762b29; of the Thebans, Trag.Adesp.84; G. PRWTOPLASTHS LxxWi.7.1; of body, opp. soul, Pl.Lg.727e.
                        3. hOI G. the dead, the shades, LxxPr.2.18, 9.18.

                        Liddell, H. G., Scott, R., Jones, H. S., & McKenzie, R. (1996). A Greek-English lexicon. (347). Oxford; New York: Clarendon Press; Oxford University Press.

                        I note that in the second citation under #3 Pr 2.18 and 9.18 are cited. Here is the transliterated text for that

                        2.18
                        EQETO GAR PARA TWi QANATWi TON OIKON AUTHS KAI PARA TWi AiDHi META TWN GHGENWN TOUS ACONAS AUTHS.

                        9.18
                        hO DE OUK OIDEN hOTI GHGENEIS PAR' AUTHi OLLUNTAI, KAI EPI PETEURON AiDOU SUNANTAi












                        george
                        gfsomsel
                        _________

                        Rolf Furuli <furuli@...> wrote:
                        Dear Peter,

                        The background for my question is that I have translated many
                        documents from Ugaritic and Phoenician into Norwegian for a book
                        series, and I am also going to list some parallels between
                        Ugaritic/Phoenician and Hebrew thought.

                        Could you please tell me which Greek words are used for "shades"? Are
                        they etymologically or semantically related to "shade/shadow"? I know
                        that the Greek word YUCH at a particular time referred to the
                        immortal souls of humans. The corresponding word in Hebrew is NP$,
                        and in the Hebrew Bible it refers to humans, animals, and to life,
                        but never clearly to something immortal. It is my impression that the
                        same is the case with the Akkadian word NAPI$TU, and the cognates in
                        other old Semitic languages (in modern Hebrew and Arabic, NP$ can
                        refer to something immortal, though).

                        In Akkadian thought, the ETEMMU (ghost) of a person could haunt the
                        living, but it seems to have been the whole person with body and
                        cloths and weapons that went down to the underworld and existed
                        there, in the land of no return (cf. "Ishtar's descent to the
                        underworld," and Gilgamesh, tablet VII). It also seems to me that the
                        same was true at Ugarit (cf. the last part of the Baal cycle).

                        I have carefully studied almost all the extant Ugaritic documents,
                        but I have not seen anything that could connect the word "shade" with
                        RP) or with the dead. If we cannot connect "shade" with the dead,
                        either etymologically, semantically, or lexically, the whole concept
                        is a fiction and should be abandoned. And in connection with this I
                        hoped to get some insights from the scholars on the ANE-2 list.

                        Best regards,

                        Rolf Furuli Ph.D
                        University of Oslo

                        >It's a sort of poetic/old-fashioned word for what's becomes of a
                        >person when they die -- for instance the inhabitants of Elysium are
                        >the shades of the dead. When Orpheus went to the underworld, he
                        >found Euridice among the shades of the dead. Perhaps in the Ugaritic
                        >context it's a way of avoiding speaking in English of "souls."
                        >--
                        >Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
                        >
                        >----- Original Message ----
                        >From: Rolf Furuli <furuli@...>
                        >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        >Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 5:12:50 PM
                        >Subject: [ANE-2] Shades
                        >






                        george
                        gfsomsel

                        Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                        defend the truth till death.

                        - Jan Hus
                        _________

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                      • sbudin@camden.rutgers.edu
                        A good work on the meaning(s) of psyche in ancient Greece is J.-P. Vernant, _Mortals and Immortals_, Chapter 10. Essentially, the psyche is what spiritually
                        Message 11 of 22 , Nov 27, 2007
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                          A good work on the meaning(s) of psyche in ancient Greece is J.-P.
                          Vernant, _Mortals and Immortals_, Chapter 10.
                          Essentially, the psyche is what "spiritually" remains of the
                          individual upon death, and I think the closest English equivalent
                          would actually be "ghost."

                          Stephanie Budin
                          Rutgers University



                          Quoting Rolf Furuli <furuli@...>:

                          >
                          > Could you please tell me which Greek words are used for "shades"? Are
                          > they etymologically or semantically related to "shade/shadow"? I know
                          > that the Greek word YUCH at a particular time referred to the
                          > immortal souls of humans. The corresponding word in Hebrew is NP$,
                          > and in the Hebrew Bible it refers to humans, animals, and to life,
                          > but never clearly to something immortal. It is my impression that the
                          > same is the case with the Akkadian word NAPI$TU, and the cognates in
                          > other old Semitic languages (in modern Hebrew and Arabic, NP$ can
                          > refer to something immortal, though).
                        • Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
                          Dear Rolf, let me reproduce a passage of my own : Yuxê ~ vpn, though the Hebrew has a far wider range of meanings, including the living being, self, desire,
                          Message 12 of 22 , Nov 27, 2007
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                            Dear Rolf,

                            let me reproduce a passage of my own :
                            Yuxê ~ vpn, though the Hebrew has a far wider range of meanings, including the living being, self, desire, appetite, emotion, etc., are the main stuff of a man's life, something viewed as airy, breath or vapour (from yÎxw - J. N. Bremmer, The Early Greek Concept of the Soul [Princeton, Princeton University Press, 1983], 21-24 - and jpn - Paul Maiberger, in TDOT IX [1998], 485-488 -,'to breathe, blow', as the Akkadian napistu, Sumerian zi-pa-ág_ or simply ZI, 'life, vigour, vitality, good health' / 'breath' [CAD N Part 1 (1980), 297-298 ; Yitschak Sefati, Love Songs in Sumerian Literature. Critical Edition of the Dumuzi-Inanna Songs (Ramat Gan, Bar-Ilan University Press, 1998), 2146], is to nap|4su, 'breath, breathing, breeze', napa4su, 'to breathe freely', and napa4hu, 'to blow something' - ib., 305, 288-289, 264), which can flee the body. See further, on the Hellenic side, R. B. Onians, The Origins of European Thought about the Body, the Mind, the Soul, the World, Time and Fate (Cambridge, Cambridge University Press, 19512), 94-100, 109-116, and Bremmer, 13-69, and on the Hebrew side, Horst Seebass, in TDOT IX, 497-519 : Ernst Jenni & Claus Westermann, Theological Lexicon of the Old Testament (Peabody, Hendrickson, 1997), II, 71-95 ; H. W. Wolff, Anthropology of the Old Testament (Mifflintown, Sigler, 19962), 10-24. The synopsis by Pirjo Lapinkivi, The Sumerian Sacred Marriage in the Light of Comparative Evidence (Helsinki, N.A.T.C. P., 2004), 131-147, is weak on Homer ; see Lars Albinus, The House of Hades. Studies in Ancient Greek Eschatology (Aarhus, University Press, 2000), 21-97. The thesis of D. B. Claus, for whom the main sense of yuxê before Plato was that of a physiological as well as psychological 'life-force' and who argued that the various words for this concept are all to be subsumed under one of the two 'underlying semantic categories' thought or life-force (Toward the Soul. An Inquiry into the Meaning of Yuxê Before Plato [New Haven & London, Yale University Press, 1981], 1-47), has not been well received, life-force being a misleading label for the yuxê in Homer (M. J. Clarke, Flesh and Spirit in the Songs of Homer [Oxford, Clarendon Press, 1999], 53-60) and the Presocratics (Burkert, Weisheit und Wissenschaft. Studien zu Pythagoras, Philolaos und Platon [Nürnberg, Carl, 1962], 249-252) ; that it was responsible for the emergence and nature of soul as a psychological agent is not bourne out by the evidence. Yuxê does appear, albeit rarely, as a shorthand for 'life, existence', especially within adjurations (Iliad, XXII 338 [Hector defeated pleads for his life to Achilles] l°ssom' Öp§r yuxìj ka± goÎnwn s÷n te tokêwn ; Sophocles, Oedipus at Colonus, 1326-1327 [Polynices begs Oedipus to stop hating him] oÀ s' ãnt± pa°dwn t÷n-de ka± yuxìj, pàter, | ¿keteÎomen cÎmpantej, with S. D. Sullivan, Sophocles' Use of Psychological Terminology. Old and New [Ottawa, Carleton University Press, 1999], 166-167 ; Euripides, Orestes, 1517 tën ¨mën yuxën katõmos' - Sullivan, Euripides' Use of Psychological Terminology [Montreal & Ithaca, McGill -Queen's University Press, 2000], 88 cf. 110, helps little - ; Herodas, III 71-72 [the naughty Kottalos beseeches his schoolmaster] mê m' µketeÎw, Lampr°ske, prÆj se t÷n Mous¥wn | ka± toÑ gene°ou tìj te KÆttidoj yuxìj) ; this meaning is much commoner for vpn in the Old Testament (for the sole Gen it appears in 17 :14, 19 :17, 19 :19, 32 :31, 37 :21 and is distinguished from the main term for 'life', hyj, in 1 :30 ... hyj vpn wbA rv Årah l[ cmwr lklw µymvh ¹w[A lklw Årah tyjA lklw, "and to all earthly animals and to all heavenly creatures and to all that crawls on the soil, which has the breath of life inside it (...)" - on hyj vpn, cf. G. J. Wenham, Genesis 1-15 ["Word Biblical Commentary", Waco, Word Books, 1987], 60-61).

                            (from : Homosexuality and liminality in the Gilgamesh and Samuel [Amsterdam, Adolf M. Hakkert, 2007], 63-64).

                            J.-F. Nardelli,

                            University of Provence.

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Rolf Furuli
                            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:25 AM
                            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Shades


                            Dear Peter,

                            The background for my question is that I have translated many
                            documents from Ugaritic and Phoenician into Norwegian for a book
                            series, and I am also going to list some parallels between
                            Ugaritic/Phoenician and Hebrew thought.

                            Could you please tell me which Greek words are used for "shades"? Are
                            they etymologically or semantically related to "shade/shadow"? I know
                            that the Greek word YUCH at a particular time referred to the
                            immortal souls of humans. The corresponding word in Hebrew is NP$,
                            and in the Hebrew Bible it refers to humans, animals, and to life,
                            but never clearly to something immortal. It is my impression that the
                            same is the case with the Akkadian word NAPI$TU, and the cognates in
                            other old Semitic languages (in modern Hebrew and Arabic, NP$ can
                            refer to something immortal, though).

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                          • dwashbur@nyx.net
                            It s an older English meaning of the term, essentially synonymous with spirit or immaterial part of the being. I wouldn t get too hung up on that specific
                            Message 13 of 22 , Nov 27, 2007
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                              It's an older English meaning of the term, essentially synonymous with "spirit" or "immaterial
                              part of the being." I wouldn't get too hung up on that specific English word. It appears that
                              someone resurrected an older meaning in order to avoid more theologically-charged words
                              such as "soul" or "spirit."

                              Dave Washburn
                              As a French hippie might say, "Je ne creuse pas!"

                              On 27 Nov 2007 at 11:25, Rolf Furuli wrote:

                              > Dear Peter,
                              >
                              > The background for my question is that I have translated many
                              > documents from Ugaritic and Phoenician into Norwegian for a book
                              > series, and I am also going to list some parallels between
                              > Ugaritic/Phoenician and Hebrew thought.
                              >
                              > Could you please tell me which Greek words are used for "shades"? Are
                              > they etymologically or semantically related to "shade/shadow"? I know
                              > that the Greek word YUCH at a particular time referred to the
                              > immortal souls of humans. The corresponding word in Hebrew is NP$,
                              > and in the Hebrew Bible it refers to humans, animals, and to life,
                              > but never clearly to something immortal. It is my impression that the
                              > same is the case with the Akkadian word NAPI$TU, and the cognates in
                              > other old Semitic languages (in modern Hebrew and Arabic, NP$ can
                              > refer to something immortal, though).
                              >
                              > In Akkadian thought, the ETEMMU (ghost) of a person could haunt the
                              > living, but it seems to have been the whole person with body and
                              > cloths and weapons that went down to the underworld and existed
                              > there, in the land of no return (cf. "Ishtar's descent to the
                              > underworld," and Gilgamesh, tablet VII). It also seems to me that the
                              > same was true at Ugarit (cf. the last part of the Baal cycle).
                              >
                              > I have carefully studied almost all the extant Ugaritic documents,
                              > but I have not seen anything that could connect the word "shade" with
                              > RP) or with the dead. If we cannot connect "shade" with the dead,
                              > either etymologically, semantically, or lexically, the whole concept
                              > is a fiction and should be abandoned. And in connection with this I
                              > hoped to get some insights from the scholars on the ANE-2 list.
                              >
                              > Best regards,
                              >
                              > Rolf Furuli Ph.D
                              > University of Oslo
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > >It's a sort of poetic/old-fashioned word for what's becomes of a
                              > >person when they die -- for instance the inhabitants of Elysium are
                              > >the shades of the dead. When Orpheus went to the underworld, he
                              > >found Euridice among the shades of the dead. Perhaps in the Ugaritic
                              > >context it's a way of avoiding speaking in English of "souls."
                              > >--
                              > >Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
                              > >
                              > >----- Original Message ----
                              > >From: Rolf Furuli <furuli@...>
                              > >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                              > >Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 5:12:50 PM
                              > >Subject: [ANE-2] Shades
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Yitzhak Sapir
                              ... See the extended note in HALOT on this word. In particular, it provides cognates from Phoenician and Neo-Punic in the sense spirits of the dead , manes.
                              Message 14 of 22 , Nov 27, 2007
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                                On Nov 27, 2007 10:25 AM, Rolf Furuli wrote:
                                > Dear Peter,
                                >
                                > The background for my question is that I have translated many
                                > documents from Ugaritic and Phoenician into Norwegian for a book
                                > series, and I am also going to list some parallels between
                                > Ugaritic/Phoenician and Hebrew thought.
                                > [...]
                                > I have carefully studied almost all the extant Ugaritic documents,
                                > but I have not seen anything that could connect the word "shade" with
                                > RP) or with the dead. If we cannot connect "shade" with the dead,
                                > either etymologically, semantically, or lexically, the whole concept
                                > is a fiction and should be abandoned. And in connection with this I
                                > hoped to get some insights from the scholars on the ANE-2 list.

                                See the extended note in HALOT on this word.

                                In particular, it provides cognates from Phoenician and Neo-Punic in
                                the sense "spirits of the dead", "manes."

                                It also lists the following Hebrew Bible verses:
                                parallel with mtym "dead" - Is 26:14, Ps 88:11
                                parallel with mwt "death" - Pr 2:18
                                dwelling in $?wl - Is 14:9, Jb 26:5, Pr 9:18
                                land of rp?ym - Is 26:19, congregation of - Pr 21:16

                                Again, look up HALOT for the complete entry and short discussion.

                                In light of these, I think it is very problematic to read "healers" in the
                                above verses. The Ugaritic should be seen as possibly preserving a
                                cognate, even if the association in Ugaritic is not as clear as in the
                                above verses.

                                Yitzhak Sapir
                              • John Wevers
                                As for the question you raised re Greek equivalents for the Hebrew NEFESH, Muraoka lists 20 equivalents for the word in his Hebrew/Aramaic Index to the
                                Message 15 of 22 , Nov 28, 2007
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                                  As for the question you raised re Greek equivalents

                                  for the Hebrew NEFESH, Muraoka lists 20 equivalents for

                                  the word in his Hebrew/Aramaic Index to the Spetuagint:

                                  Keyed to te Hatch-Redpath Concordance. Grand Rapids,

                                  Baker Books, 1998.

                                  Cordially,
                                  John Wm Wevers
                                • Rolf Furuli
                                  Thank you all for your suggestions and references. Because I am not a native speaker of English, I was not aware of the older meaning of shades, that this
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Nov 28, 2007
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                                    Thank you all for your suggestions and references. Because I am not a
                                    native speaker of English, I was not aware of the older meaning of
                                    "shades," that this word is synonymous with "ghosts". Because of
                                    this, there need of course not be any etymological or semantic
                                    relationship between the Ugaritic RP) and the Ugaritic word for
                                    "shade/shadow. Then the problem is moved from the lexical sphere to
                                    the contextual or religious sphere.

                                    My lack of understanding of an English word illustrates a basic
                                    problem with the studies of dead languages as far as lexical
                                    semantics is concerned. Word studies are based on induction, and
                                    inductive approaches have many limitations. Moreover, it is very easy
                                    to color the definitions of words with one's theological views or by
                                    modern theories of lexical semantics. James Barr (1961 "The Semantics
                                    of Biblical Language") demonstrated this in his discussion of TWNT.
                                    Another pitfall is to define a word in one Semitic language on the
                                    basis of its cognate in another Semitic language; in other words, to
                                    define a word in one language on the basis of one's conclusions
                                    (based on induction) regarding the meaning of a similar word in a
                                    cognate language.

                                    As for RP)/RPH, it can refer to living people in Ugaritic (Danel was
                                    the man of RP)) and Hebrew (a family of tall people). In both
                                    languages RP) is also associated with death. However, in Ugaritic
                                    texts I have not been able to locate a single instance where the word
                                    refers to ghosts or disembodied spirits, and the same is true in the
                                    Hebrew Bible. In the entry RP)YM in HALOT we find the meaning "dead
                                    spirits," and in my view, this is an excellent example of a fallacy
                                    pointed out by Barr (I will not call it "the etymological fallacy"
                                    but rather "the theological fallacy" or "the fallacy of tradition").
                                    I am not aware of any traces of "ghosts" or "disembodied spirits" in
                                    the Hebrew texts where RP)/RPH occurs. My guess is that the word
                                    refers to "the weak ones; the powerless ones" i.e., that it is
                                    synonymous with MTYM "the dead".

                                    Bible translators have problems in dealing consistently with the word RP)YM.

                                    In Isaiah 26:14 (New International Version ) we find the translation:
                                    "They are now dead, they live no more, departed spirits (RP)YM) do
                                    not rise"
                                    But in v. 19 we read: "But your dead (MTYK) will live, their bodies
                                    will rise...the earth will give birth to her dead (RP)YM)"

                                    Best regards,

                                    Rolf Furuli Ph.D
                                    University of Oslo
                                  • Yitzhak Sapir
                                    ... See also here: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/2002-December/014491.html http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/JHS/reviews/review190.htm The book in the
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Nov 28, 2007
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                                      On Nov 28, 2007 6:43 PM, Rolf Furuli wrote:

                                      > As for RP)/RPH, it can refer to living people in Ugaritic (Danel was
                                      > the man of RP)) and Hebrew (a family of tall people). In both
                                      > languages RP) is also associated with death. However, in Ugaritic
                                      > texts I have not been able to locate a single instance where the word
                                      > refers to ghosts or disembodied spirits, and the same is true in the
                                      > Hebrew Bible. In the entry RP)YM in HALOT we find the meaning "dead
                                      > spirits," and in my view, this is an excellent example of a fallacy
                                      > pointed out by Barr (I will not call it "the etymological fallacy"
                                      > but rather "the theological fallacy" or "the fallacy of tradition").
                                      > I am not aware of any traces of "ghosts" or "disembodied spirits" in
                                      > the Hebrew texts where RP)/RPH occurs. My guess is that the word
                                      > refers to "the weak ones; the powerless ones" i.e., that it is
                                      > synonymous with MTYM "the dead".

                                      See also here:
                                      http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/2002-December/014491.html
                                      http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/JHS/reviews/review190.htm

                                      The book in the second link might also provide you with some additional
                                      bibliography, and you might want to look up some biblical and related
                                      dictionaries too -- ABD, DDD, etc. A lot of literature has been published
                                      on this very subject and it should be consulted for any type of discussion
                                      that deals with the subject.

                                      Yitzhak Sapir
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