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Re: [ANE-2] Ancient Mass Burials

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  • cejo@uchicago.edu
    Jason is real, and indeed vey interesting. He s on the Anthropology faculty at Harvard and a graduate of Chicago. Read his dissertation at:
    Message 1 of 29 , Sep 1, 2007
      Jason is real, and indeed vey interesting. He's on the Anthropology faculty at Harvard and a graduate of Chicago. Read his
      dissertation at:
      http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/library/dissertation/ur.html

      -Chuck Jones-
      Athens



      ---- Original message ----
      >Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 00:54:20 +0300
      >From: Eliot Braun <ebraun@...>
      >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Ancient Mass Burials
      >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > The notion of secondary burial suggests these pits are similar to south Levantine burial
      > customs of the Chalcolithic period. I get the feeling that these pits may represent
      > burials over a span of time rather than single-events. That would detract somewhat from
      > the suggested dramatic scenario in the article. Perhaps as interesting is the
      > archaeologist's name, Jason "Ur".
      >
      > Eliot Braun, Ph D
      > Ha-oren 12, Har Adar, Israel 90836
      > Tel. 972-2-5345687
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Antonio Lombatti
      > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 5:55 PM
      > Subject: [ANE-2] Ancient Mass Burials
      >
      > Archaeologists working in Syria have unearthed the remains of dozens of youths thought to
      > have been killed in a fierce confrontation 6,000 years ago.
      >
      > According to Science magazine, the celebrating victors may even have feasted on beef in
      > the aftermath.
      >
      > The findings come from northeastern Syria, near Tell Brak, one of the world's oldest known
      > cities.
      >
      > The full BBC article can be read here:
      >
      > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6971289.stm
      >
      > Antonio Lombatti
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
    • Peter Westh
      ... The link to the dissertation text itself seems to be dead? Peter Westh PhD student University of Copenhagen Department of Cross-cultural and Regional
      Message 2 of 29 , Sep 2, 2007
        > Jason is real, and indeed vey interesting. He's on the
        > Anthropology faculty at Harvard and a graduate of Chicago. Read his
        > dissertation at:
        > http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/library/dissertation/ur.html
        >
        > -Chuck Jones-
        > Athens

        The link to the dissertation text itself seems to be dead?


        Peter Westh
        PhD student
        University of Copenhagen
        Department of Cross-cultural and Regional Studies
        History of Religions Section
        Artillerivej 86, room 2.06
        DK-2300 Copenhagen
        Denmark
      • Niels Peter Lemche
        Found this:
        Message 3 of 29 , Sep 2, 2007
          Found this:

          http://libcat.uchicago.edu/ipac20/ipac.jsp?session=11O87H06Q2541.16146&profile=ucpublic&uri=full=3100001~!5536183~!3&ri=1&aspect=subtab13&menu=search&source=~!horizon

          Niels Peter Lemche

          -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
          Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Peter Westh
          Sendt: 2. september 2007 09:55
          Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Emne: RE: [ANE-2] Ancient Mass Burials

          > Jason is real, and indeed vey interesting. He's on the
          > Anthropology faculty at Harvard and a graduate of Chicago. Read his
          > dissertation at:
          > http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/library/dissertation/ur.html
          >
          > -Chuck Jones-
          > Athens

          The link to the dissertation text itself seems to be dead?


          Peter Westh
          PhD student
          University of Copenhagen
          Department of Cross-cultural and Regional Studies
          History of Religions Section
          Artillerivej 86, room 2.06
          DK-2300 Copenhagen
          Denmark



          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • Antonio Lombatti
          Dr. Ur, Harvard University, speaks of the recent discoveries in terms of urbanism: http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/article/20070901/NEWS/709010382/1033/NEWS01
          Message 4 of 29 , Sep 2, 2007
            Dr. Ur, Harvard University, speaks of the recent discoveries in terms of urbanism:

            http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/article/20070901/NEWS/709010382/1033/NEWS01

            Antonio Lombatti
          • Antonio Lombatti
            Professor Juan José Castillos, of the Uruguayan Institute of Egyptology, claims that the evolution of the Egyptian civilisation resulted from the ambition of
            Message 5 of 29 , Sep 2, 2007
              Professor Juan José Castillos, of the Uruguayan Institute of Egyptology, claims that the evolution of the Egyptian civilisation resulted from the ambition of individuals with a strong inclination towards exerting power. He presented his thesis yesterday at the 2nd National Summit for Egyptology Studies, in the southern Brazilian city of Curitiba.

              The full report can be read here:

              http://www.anba.com.br/ingles/noticia.php?id=15771

              Antonio Lombatti
            • George F Somsel
              Now who d a thunk that? It appears that this is something that is at least implicit in virtually any concept of the development of civilization. george
              Message 6 of 29 , Sep 3, 2007
                Now who'd a thunk that? It appears that this is something that is at least implicit in virtually any concept of the development of civilization.

                george
                gfsomsel

                Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                defend the truth till death.

                - Jan Hus
                _________



                ----- Original Message ----
                From: Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...>
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2007 6:41:06 AM
                Subject: [ANE-2] New Theory on the Evolution of Egypt

                Professor Juan José Castillos, of the Uruguayan Institute of Egyptology, claims that the evolution of the Egyptian civilisation resulted from the ambition of individuals with a strong inclination towards exerting power. He presented his thesis yesterday at the 2nd National Summit for Egyptology Studies, in the southern Brazilian city of Curitiba.

                The full report can be read here:

                http://www.anba com.br/ingles/ noticia.php? id=15771

                Antonio Lombatti.



                ____________________________________________________________________________________
                Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
                http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Martín Segovia
                ... at least implicit in virtually any concept of the development of civilization. ... Maybe if you judge by the simplistic way journalists put it, but I think
                Message 7 of 29 , Sep 3, 2007
                  --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Now who'd a thunk that? It appears that this is something that is
                  at least implicit in virtually any concept of the development of
                  civilization.
                  >
                  > george
                  > gfsomsel




                  Maybe if you judge by the simplistic way journalists
                  put it, but I think that as a theory it was advanced
                  only about 15 years ago in anthropology and AFAIK never
                  for egyptology where demography, circumscription, the
                  need for control over irrigation, etc., etc. had not
                  very convincingly been advanced before and the concept
                  in all its implications seems to be a fairly original
                  idea for the early development of complexity in Egypt.

                  Doesn´t it at least deserve a fair hearing when it is
                  more academically presented? Maybe it has already been
                  and I haven´t seen it. I didn´t attend the meeting they
                  mention, has anybody here?

                  Martin



                  >
                  > ----- Original Message ----
                  > From: Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...>
                  > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2007 6:41:06 AM
                  > Subject: [ANE-2] New Theory on the Evolution of Egypt
                  >
                  > Professor Juan José Castillos, of the Uruguayan Institute of
                  Egyptology, claims that the evolution of the Egyptian civilisation
                  resulted from the ambition of individuals with a strong inclination
                  towards exerting power. He presented his thesis yesterday at the 2nd
                  National Summit for Egyptology Studies, in the southern Brazilian
                  city of Curitiba.
                  >
                  > The full report can be read here:
                  >
                  > http://www.anba com.br/ingles/ noticia.php? id=15771
                  >
                  > Antonio Lombatti.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  ______________________________________________________________________
                  ______________
                  > Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative
                  vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
                  > http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • B. Andelkovic
                  With the past and present civilizations in mind, overambitious, power-hungry individuals and conflict over power can hardly be labeled as new . As far as
                  Message 8 of 29 , Sep 6, 2007
                    With the past and present "civilizations" in mind, overambitious, power-hungry individuals and conflict over power can hardly be labeled as "new".

                    As far as the state formation in Naqada IIC-IID1 Egypt (ca. 3500 BC) is concerned (power conflict as the true prime mover/dominant factor included) perhaps this might be of interest:


                    Andelkovic, B., 2004, The Upper Egyptian Commonwealth: A Crucial Phase of the State Formation Process. Pp. 535-546 in Egypt at its Origins. Studies in Memory of Barbara Adams. Proceedings of the International Conference "Origin of the State. Predynastic and Early Dynastic Egypt", Krakow, 28th August - 1st September 2002. Orientalia Lovaniensia Analecta 138, eds. S. Hendrickx, R. F. Friedman, K. M. Cialowicz, and M. Chlodnicki. Leuven, Paris and Dudley, MA: Uitgeverij Peeters and Departement Oosterose Studies.

                    Andelkovic, B., Models of State Formation in Predynastic Egypt. In Archaeology of Early Northeastern Africa: In Memory of Lech Krzyzaniak. Studies in African Archaeology 9, eds. K. Kroeper, M. Chlodnicki and M. Kobusiewicz. Poznan: Poznan Archaeological Museum (2006, in press).

                    Andelkovic, B., Parameters of Statehood in Predynastic Egypt. In L'Egypte pré- et protodynastique. Les origines de l'Etat. Toulouse (France) 5-8 sept.2005, eds. B. Midant-Reynes, Y. Tristant, S. Hendrickx, and R. F. Friedman. [The Proceedings are to be published by Peeters Publishers at Leuven, Orientalia Lovaniensia Analecta series. Their publication is planned for the end of year 2007.]


                    ____________________________________________
                    Dr. Branislav Andelkovic
                    Asst. Professor of Near Eastern Archaeology
                    Faculty of Philosophy, Department of Archaeology
                    Cika Ljubina 18-20, 11000 Belgrade, Serbia
                    E-mail: B.Andelkovic@...
                    Tel.+381 11 3206 235; Fax.+381 11 2639 356
                    ____________________________________________
                    The Belgrade Mummy: http://www.f.bg.ac.yu/bemum/

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Martín Segovia
                    ... power-hungry individuals and conflict over power can hardly be labeled as new . ... BC) is concerned (power conflict as the true prime mover/dominant ...
                    Message 9 of 29 , Sep 7, 2007
                      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "B. Andelkovic" <B.Andelkovic@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > With the past and present "civilizations" in mind, overambitious,
                      power-hungry individuals and conflict over power can hardly be
                      labeled as "new".
                      >
                      > As far as the state formation in Naqada IIC-IID1 Egypt (ca. 3500
                      BC) is concerned (power conflict as the true prime mover/dominant
                      factor included) perhaps this might be of interest:
                      >
                      >
                      (several references given)

                      >
                      > ____________________________________________
                      > Dr. Branislav Andelkovic
                      > Asst. Professor of Near Eastern Archaeology
                      > Faculty of Philosophy, Department of Archaeology
                      > Cika Ljubina 18-20, 11000 Belgrade, Serbia
                      > E-mail: B.Andelkovic@...
                      > Tel.+381 11 3206 235; Fax.+381 11 2639 356
                      > ____________________________________________
                      > The Belgrade Mummy: http://www.f.bg.ac.yu/bemum/
                      >





                      I am afraid you might have missed the point. It´s
                      quite clear that individuals and their power struggles
                      are not new in egyptology, but the concept of "aggrandisers"
                      and how they came about and even if it is an adequate
                      explanation for the appearance of hereditary chiefs
                      in formerly somewhat egalitarian groups, is a subject
                      much discussed in modern anthropology, and applied to
                      the beginning of class stratification in predynastic
                      Egypt I have never read it discussed in any egyptology
                      book or paper so far. It apparently requires looking
                      for different kinds of evidence in the archaeological
                      record.

                      All the interpretations I have read about deal with
                      other possible causes for this phenomenon, as I pointed
                      out in an earlier post.

                      So, if you can provide precise references in which
                      this modern anthropological concept is applied to Egypt,
                      then this research would not be ´new´, but if you cannot,
                      then this would definitely be new and original.

                      Just some thoughts I wanted to share.

                      Cheers,

                      Martin Segovia
                    • Osvaldo
                      Just for information, about the controversy of New Theory on the Evolution of Egypt, of professor J. J. Castillos’s webpage:
                      Message 10 of 29 , Sep 8, 2007
                        Just for information, about the controversy of New Theory on the Evolution
                        of Egypt, of professor J. J. Castillos’s webpage:



                        http://www.geocities.com/jjcastillos/complexity.html



                        Fraternally,



                        Osvaldo Luiz Ribeiro

                        Brasil





                        _____

                        De: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] Em nome de Martín
                        Segovia
                        Enviada em: sexta-feira, 7 de setembro de 2007 14:45
                        Para: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        Assunto: [ANE-2] Re: New Theory on the Evolution of Egypt





                        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com, "B.
                        Andelkovic" <B.Andelkovic@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > With the past and present "civilizations" in mind, overambitious,
                        power-hungry individuals and conflict over power can hardly be
                        labeled as "new".
                        >
                        > As far as the state formation in Naqada IIC-IID1 Egypt (ca. 3500
                        BC) is concerned (power conflict as the true prime mover/dominant
                        factor included) perhaps this might be of interest:
                        >
                        >
                        (several references given)

                        >
                        > ____________________________________________
                        > Dr. Branislav Andelkovic
                        > Asst. Professor of Near Eastern Archaeology
                        > Faculty of Philosophy, Department of Archaeology
                        > Cika Ljubina 18-20, 11000 Belgrade, Serbia
                        > E-mail: B.Andelkovic@...
                        > Tel.+381 11 3206 235; Fax.+381 11 2639 356
                        > ____________________________________________
                        > The Belgrade Mummy: http://www.f <http://www.f.bg.ac.yu/bemum/>
                        bg.ac.yu/bemum/
                        >

                        I am afraid you might have missed the point. It´s
                        quite clear that individuals and their power struggles
                        are not new in egyptology, but the concept of "aggrandisers"
                        and how they came about and even if it is an adequate
                        explanation for the appearance of hereditary chiefs
                        in formerly somewhat egalitarian groups, is a subject
                        much discussed in modern anthropology, and applied to
                        the beginning of class stratification in predynastic
                        Egypt I have never read it discussed in any egyptology
                        book or paper so far. It apparently requires looking
                        for different kinds of evidence in the archaeological
                        record.

                        All the interpretations I have read about deal with
                        other possible causes for this phenomenon, as I pointed
                        out in an earlier post.

                        So, if you can provide precise references in which
                        this modern anthropological concept is applied to Egypt,
                        then this research would not be ´new´, but if you cannot,
                        then this would definitely be new and original.

                        Just some thoughts I wanted to share.

                        Cheers,

                        Martin Segovia





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Mikey Brass
                        ... I tend to agree with the scholars criticising the concept of aggranisers on practical and theoretical grounds. One aspects of the criticism is it treats
                        Message 11 of 29 , Sep 8, 2007
                          Osvaldo wrote:

                          > http://www.geocities.com/jjcastillos/complexity.html

                          I tend to agree with the scholars criticising the concept of aggranisers
                          on practical and theoretical grounds. One aspects of the criticism is it
                          treats the predynastic inhabitants of the Nile Valley as a region upon
                          which to impose theoretical models constructed from examples outside of
                          Africa.

                          --
                          Best, Mikey Brass
                          MA in Archaeology degree, University College London
                          "The Antiquity of Man" http://www.antiquityofman.com
                          Book: "The Antiquity of Man: Artifactual, fossil and gene records explored"

                          - !ke e: /xarra //ke
                          ("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
                        • Jon Smyth
                          Is it not perceived that in order for a social group to evolve interaction is required between different social groups? That a group which remains isolated is
                          Message 12 of 29 , Sep 9, 2007
                            Is it not perceived that in order for a social group to evolve
                            interaction is required between different social groups?
                            That a group which remains isolated is more likely to remain static?

                            Progressive evolution of a select society may well be as a result of
                            aggressive contact with the outside world. I think it has been readily
                            demonstrated that conflicts tend to result in 'leaps-forward' in
                            technology in all ages.
                            Ironically there can be mutual benefits from mutual aggression between
                            differing social groups.

                            Are you concerned about a revamping of Petrie's Dynastic Race Theory?

                            Best Wishes, Jon Smyth
                            Toronto, CAN.


                            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Mikey Brass <michael.brass@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Osvaldo wrote:
                            >
                            > > http://www.geocities.com/jjcastillos/complexity.html
                            >
                            > I tend to agree with the scholars criticising the concept of
                            aggranisers
                            > on practical and theoretical grounds. One aspects of the criticism
                            is it
                            > treats the predynastic inhabitants of the Nile Valley as a region upon
                            > which to impose theoretical models constructed from examples outside of
                            > Africa.
                            >
                          • Martín Segovia
                            ... aggranisers ... is it ... upon ... outside of ... Why not? Not forcing them into the data but checking if they make sense or not, after all, man is
                            Message 13 of 29 , Sep 9, 2007
                              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Mikey Brass <michael.brass@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > I tend to agree with the scholars criticising the concept of
                              aggranisers
                              > on practical and theoretical grounds. One aspects of the criticism
                              is it
                              > treats the predynastic inhabitants of the Nile Valley as a region
                              upon
                              > which to impose theoretical models constructed from examples
                              outside of
                              > Africa.
                              >
                              > --
                              > Best, Mikey Brass
                              > MA in Archaeology degree, University College London





                              Why not? Not forcing them into the data but
                              checking if they make sense or not, after
                              all, man is basically the same everywhere.
                              I don´t see anybody ´imposing´ anything on
                              anybody but rather exploring possibilities.

                              Following your views, then Carneiro´s ideas
                              about circumscription should not have been
                              applied to Egypt and Bard should not have
                              joined him for the purpose because if I
                              remember right, he originally conceived them
                              for Peru. Still, those views were published
                              and (for a while) received respectful attention.

                              That would seem to me adopting a very narrow
                              minded approach that would impoverish rather
                              than increase knowledge.

                              From my readings in archaeology and anthropology
                              it seems that evidence and theoretical views
                              emerging from all over the world are tested
                              everywhere, and this seems a fertile pursuit.

                              Sincerely,

                              Martin Segovia
                            • Mikey Brass
                              ... I do not accept the concept of progressive evolution . Cultural structures, a higher abstraction level resting upon social organisational principles, are
                              Message 14 of 29 , Sep 9, 2007
                                Jon Smyth wrote:
                                > Is it not perceived that in order for a social group to evolve
                                > interaction is required between different social groups?
                                > That a group which remains isolated is more likely to remain static?
                                >
                                > Progressive evolution of a select society may well be as a result of
                                > aggressive contact with the outside world. I think it has been readily
                                > demonstrated that conflicts tend to result in 'leaps-forward' in
                                > technology in all ages.
                                > Ironically there can be mutual benefits from mutual aggression between
                                > differing social groups.

                                I do not accept the concept of "progressive evolution".

                                Cultural structures, a higher abstraction level resting upon social
                                organisational principles, are inherently vested with the
                                trappings of power symbolism. This power symbolism has been defined as
                                “a complex of thoughts, rules and practices…which describe and explain
                                the functioning meaning and goal of a social group” (Skalnik 1996, 86).
                                To the degree by which symbols of power are co-opted towards political
                                ends, political ideology manifests itself as “a specific set of
                                thoughts and rules regulating the co-existence of people on one
                                territory…[embracing] more people…[and] explains why particular people
                                should be rulers and others not” (Skalnik 1996, 86).

                                The incorporation of symbols into the ideological trappings of political
                                power questions to what degree these events parallel the transformation
                                of essentially egalitarian modes of production into social hierarchies.
                                Fieldwork conducted amongst the Moors and Tuaregs of the Sahara and
                                Sahel (Bonte 1977), the Dii of Cameroon (Muller 1996) and the Nanumba
                                polity in northern Ghana (Skalnik 1996), amongst others, has reinforced
                                the notion of recognition of multiple forms of political organisation
                                advocated by Fried (1967).

                                The manifestations and nature of egalitarian political and
                                socio-economic societies are well documented in the literature (Barnard
                                1992, Fried 1967, Smith et al. 2000). What is important
                                to note, however, is that while the environment is an active and
                                important component of patterns of landscape exploitation, development
                                of a ranked society from an egalitarian base in a pristine situation
                                occurs through a combination of indigenous stimuli and variables
                                (Fried 1967). Rank societies regulate behaviour through shared ethnic
                                group membership differentiated into a formalised kinship network based
                                on descent principles, labour divisions based on age and sex,
                                redistributing integrated economic resources on a village as
                                opposed to individual level (thus enhancing the status of the
                                redistributor) and having the loci of co-operation centred around the
                                ethnic group (Fried 1967, McElreath et al. 2003).

                                Further delineations are required between centralised states and
                                stateless segmentary lineage systems. In the latter, ritual and
                                political influence have contrasting spheres of control:
                                ritual activities in the peripheral areas are in constant flux, while
                                the seat of political authority is centred on the core domains of the
                                territory held in place by checks and balances of ritual sanction and
                                institutionalised interdependence (Southall 1988b). The Nanumba
                                political structure of northern Ghana is an example of a society whose
                                power does not rest on the formalised structure of a state, but whose
                                different groups and institutions function interdependently through a
                                shared symbolic/cognitive manifestation of ritual, tradition and
                                authority as the source of legitimation (Skalnik 1996).

                                Muller (1996) has highlighted the intertwined political and ideological
                                groupings of the Dii and Gbaya in Cameroon as examples of different
                                political entities. The Dii chief undergoes a series of induction rites
                                upon his succession which are seen to legitimise his rule and provide
                                him with the strength, knowledge and humility to govern. Through this
                                process, the right of rulership is based on contracts between the
                                institution of the chief, who is also the chief priest, and those who
                                are ruled. The Gbaya are a population living to the south of the
                                Dii. While they too are organised into clans, the difference between
                                them and the Dii is the Gbaya have no formalised hereditary leadership;
                                their ideology of egalitarianism promotes splinter tendencies (Muller 1996).

                                While constructs of societal nexus are generally orientated towards
                                identifying either power symbols in polities such as state societies or
                                to identify the use of symbolic constructs in egalitarian cultures,
                                Renfrew (2001) has drawn attention to the feedback mechanisms of
                                four crucial concepts. However, Renfrew’s model does not adequately
                                account for ritual as a force for stability and change. Marxist (Bloch
                                1977), ecological anthropological (Rappaport 1979) and Neo-Darwinian
                                (Bettinger 1991) perspectives differ on the privileging of ritual as a
                                casual or derivative principle. Despite this, there remains the issue of
                                what factors integrate ritual with the social dynamics inherent in
                                emerging social hierarchies. Dual inheritance theory (Boyd and Richerson
                                1985) has been used to integrate ritual and social inequality into a
                                model outlining how ritually sanctioned justification may be monopolised
                                by high ranking individuals to increase their lineage’s wealth and
                                social status (Aldenderfer 1993). Giddens’ (1984) theory of
                                structuration and the concepts of agency (Barrett 2001) and
                                indirectly biased transmission (Boyd and Richerson 1985) are powerful
                                theoretical tools for explaining how social complexity subsequently
                                became institutionalised. Spencer (1993) uses these theoretical
                                constructions to hypothesize how transient “simultaneous
                                hierarchy” (achieved status) evolves into permanent elite, using agency
                                as the catalyst and structuration as the cultural limitations framing
                                the process.


                                --
                                Best, Mikey Brass
                                MA in Archaeology degree, University College London
                                "The Antiquity of Man" http://www.antiquityofman.com
                                Book: "The Antiquity of Man: Artifactual, fossil and gene records explored"

                                - !ke e: /xarra //ke
                                ("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
                              • Mikey Brass
                                ... For the same reason I would be hesistant to apply ethnography from, for example, a corner of southern Africa to Polynesia without taking into account
                                Message 15 of 29 , Sep 9, 2007
                                  Martín Segovia wrote:

                                  > Why not?

                                  For the same reason I would be hesistant to apply ethnography from, for
                                  example, a corner of southern Africa to Polynesia without taking into
                                  account ethnography from the region in question.

                                  Getting *ideas* from reading a a broad range of ethnography is not
                                  something I disagree with, of course. However, successfully *applying*
                                  ethnographic concepts is a different animal.

                                  There have been too many inaccurate instances of applying non-African
                                  ethnography to African contexts for me to anything but cautious.

                                  Kevin MacDonald and Andrew Reid have a book coming out next year on
                                  early African statehood which explores these themes indepth.

                                  --
                                  Best, Mikey Brass
                                  MA in Archaeology degree, University College London
                                  "The Antiquity of Man" http://www.antiquityofman.com
                                  Book: "The Antiquity of Man: Artifactual, fossil and gene records explored"

                                  - !ke e: /xarra //ke
                                  ("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
                                • B. Andelkovic
                                  Dear Mr. Segovia, Thank you for your comments. ... It is my believe that Egyptology and Egyptian archaeology dealing with the pre- and proto-history of Egypt
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Sep 10, 2007
                                    Dear Mr. Segovia,

                                    Thank you for your comments.

                                    >It´s quite clear that individuals and their power struggles
                                    >are not new in egyptology, but the concept of "aggrandisers"


                                    It is my believe that "Egyptology" and Egyptian archaeology dealing with the
                                    pre- and proto-history of Egypt are hardly quite the same discipline
                                    (although the first two "Dinasties" are correctly identified as the very end
                                    of Naqada IIIC1-IIID).

                                    As far as one can conclude from Prof. Castillos own words: "aggrandizers,
                                    that is, individuals seeking to benefit from favourable circumstances to
                                    create a power base for themselves and emerge like god-like rulers of a
                                    larger community than the one to which they originally belonged", it pretty
                                    much looks like the very same thing (i.e. power struggle of individuals),
                                    and accordingly, can hardly be perceived as "new".

                                    >the beginning of class stratification in predynastic
                                    >Egypt I have never read it discussed in any egyptology book or paper so far

                                    Here is an excerpt from my 2004 reference:

                                    "We have no doubts that conflict was, if not a prime mover (cf. Griswold
                                    1992b: 237), a prime method then of the state formation. Therefore, we agree
                                    with Campagno (2002b: 21) that "in the beginning [and ever since] was war",
                                    but we are prone to disagree over the reason, namely exotic prestige goods,
                                    he suggested for the conflict. Exotic goods were, in our view, merely an
                                    item in a long list of gains that went to the ultimate winner of the "grand
                                    prize", because what the Egyptian elite were really fighting for was
                                    absolute power. Needless to say, the final winner was the Divine King. A
                                    number of authors (e.g. Patch 1991: 359-360; Geller 1992: 156-157; cf.
                                    Griswold 1992b: 239; Siegemund 1999: 243-252) reject
                                    competition/conflict/warfare as a motivating factor because they likewise
                                    consider only a few isolated items of the winner's list. Indeed, the
                                    conflict was hardly caused by shortage of land, approaching of the carrying
                                    capacity, or scarce resources. The natural resources and energetic potential
                                    were more than abundant in the Nile Valley. Nonetheless, the most manifest
                                    aspect of the power competition was truly a fight over land, or better said,
                                    fight over territory (and more territory) caused, as Needler stressed (1984:
                                    31) by "the inherent tendency of absolute power to expand beyond its
                                    borders". In essence, Bard and Carneiro (1989; cf. Bard 1992: 16) were
                                    right with their circumscription model, except in omitting to reveal the
                                    main and the most important reason for the competition - the true prime
                                    mover - the will to power."

                                    The other two of my references (I have mentioned in my previous mail) are
                                    still in press, so no wonder that you have never read them. The similar is
                                    valid for my PhD "The Evolution of Gerzean Culture: Internal and External
                                    Factors" (submitted December 2002, defended June 2003, University of
                                    Belgrade) that was, unfortunately, written in Serbian.

                                    However, let me mention but a few, I believe that similar views are held in
                                    the several papers of my friend and colleague Dr. Marcelo Campagno
                                    (including his PhD, "From Kin-chiefs to God-kings. Emergence and
                                    Consolidation of the State in Ancient Egypt: From Badarian to Early Dynastic
                                    Period, ca. 4500-2700 B.C.", defended December 2001, University of Buenos
                                    Aires), as well as in the works of Dr. Alejandro Jimenez-Serrano
                                    (Universidad de Jean).

                                    I have to add that I know, respect and appreciate Prof. Castillos work very
                                    much. The point that you might have missed is rather related to Eliot
                                    Braun's comment (September 3, 2007) "It seems that once every few years
                                    someone discovers 'America' and the PAPERS PICK IT UP." [emphasis added]

                                    With best regards,

                                    Branislav Andelkovic
                                    Editor, Journal of the Serbian Archaeological Society

                                    ____________________________________________
                                    Dr. Branislav Andelkovic
                                    Asst. Professor of Near Eastern Archaeology
                                    Faculty of Philosophy, Department of Archaeology
                                    Cika Ljubina 18-20, 11000 Belgrade, Serbia
                                    E-mail: B.Andelkovic@...
                                    Tel.+381 11 3206 235; Fax.+381 11 2639 356
                                    ____________________________________________
                                    The Belgrade Mummy: http://www.f.bg.ac.yu/bemum/
                                  • Martín Segovia
                                    ... individuals), ... Dear Dr. Andelkovic, Thank you for your detailed reply. From what you write I confirm the views I got from other readings, that all those
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Sep 10, 2007
                                      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "B. Andelkovic" <B.Andelkovic@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >



                                      >it pretty
                                      >much looks like the very same thing (i.e. power struggle of
                                      individuals),
                                      >and accordingly, can hardly be perceived as "new".



                                      Dear Dr. Andelkovic,

                                      Thank you for your detailed reply.

                                      From what you write I confirm the views I
                                      got from other readings, that all those
                                      approaches you mention analyze the conflicts
                                      to expand power among chieftains, but I
                                      don´t see there the very beginning, how
                                      those people ++started++ changing things
                                      in their own communities to get the process
                                      going, how and why and what allowed the
                                      rise of these fellows over their kin
                                      rupturing all traditions and old social
                                      bonds, how they managed to do so and how
                                      that can be appreciated in the archaeological
                                      record in prehistoric Egypt, that is what
                                      I see of new in this approach and not
                                      repeating all over the discovery of
                                      America.

                                      And I understand that Bard later dissociated
                                      herself from earlier views she shared with
                                      Carneiro because the circumscription model
                                      didn´t seem to apply to Egypt then with plenty
                                      of fertile land for everybody.

                                      Respectfully yours,

                                      Martin Segovia
                                    • richfaussette
                                      ... static? Yes, resource competition increases selection pressure among neighboring groups. Adaptive traits survive the increase in selection pressure. They
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Sep 10, 2007
                                        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Mikey Brass <michael.brass@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Jon Smyth wrote:
                                        > > Is it not perceived that in order for a social group to evolve
                                        > > interaction is required between different social groups?
                                        > > That a group which remains isolated is more likely to remain
                                        static?


                                        Yes, resource competition increases selection pressure among
                                        neighboring groups. Adaptive traits survive the increase in selection
                                        pressure. They are "selected." That's evolution.

                                        An isolated group would remain relatively "static" in technology that
                                        promoted their survival in resource competition with other groups
                                        after many generations of that technology not being "selected" simply
                                        because there were no other groups around to bring the requisite
                                        selection stresses to bear.


                                        Paul Colinvaux, the ecologist, in Fates of Nations: A Biological
                                        Theory of History posits this mechanism for technological advances.

                                        rich faussette
                                      • Martín Segovia
                                        ... Well, you don´t know if what you find in one region of the world can be applied to another until you try and see how well it explains the problem at
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Sep 11, 2007
                                          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Mikey Brass <michael.brass@...> wrote:
                                          >

                                          >Getting *ideas* from reading a a broad range of ethnography is not
                                          >something I disagree with, of course. However, successfully
                                          >*applying*
                                          >ethnographic concepts is a different animal.



                                          Well, you don´t know if what you find in one
                                          region of the world can be "applied" to another
                                          until you try and see how well it explains the
                                          problem at hand there or not, but a priori
                                          rejecting that it can be applied or expressing
                                          a distrust to such approaches is closing one´s
                                          mind to possibilities that can be good answers
                                          to problems such as the birth and growth of
                                          complexity in a given place and time.

                                          That some of them have been found wanting
                                          or incorrect is part of the natural order of
                                          things in science, in many cases you don´t
                                          know until you try it.

                                          Martin Segovia
                                        • Martín Segovia
                                          Dear Dr. Andelkovic, ... Griswold ... the grand ... was ... External ... Thank you for the information. All this is fine for the disputes among chiefs
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Sep 11, 2007
                                            Dear Dr. Andelkovic,

                                            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "B. Andelkovic" <B.Andelkovic@...>
                                            wrote:
                                            >

                                            >"We have no doubts that conflict was, if not a prime mover (cf.
                                            Griswold
                                            >1992b: 237), a prime method then of the ++state formation++.
                                            ==============
                                            >Exotic goods were, in our view, merely an
                                            >item in a long list of gains that went to the ++ultimate winner of
                                            the "grand
                                            >prize",++ because what the Egyptian elite were really fighting for
                                            was
                                            >absolute power.
                                            ==============
                                            >The similar is
                                            >valid for my PhD "The Evolution of ++Gerzean Culture++: Internal and
                                            External
                                            >Factors"



                                            Thank you for the information.

                                            All this is fine for the disputes among
                                            chiefs competing "for the grand prize",
                                            as you remark, but as I said, others try
                                            to go deeper into the very beginning of
                                            it all and that seems to me to be rather
                                            new.


                                            >However, let me mention but a few, I believe that similar views are
                                            held in
                                            >the several papers of my friend and colleague Dr. Marcelo Campagno


                                            I´ve read some of the papers and books
                                            by this scholar but I haven´t found there
                                            answers to this specific problem, except
                                            for general comments of what may have
                                            happened but nothing of how, who and why
                                            and possible archaeological indicators
                                            of the first steps.

                                            So it seems we are talking of different
                                            things and there seems to be little purpose
                                            in going round in circles mentioning things
                                            that are not really the same, even if they
                                            are part of the same overall process.

                                            All the best,

                                            Martin Segovia
                                          • richfaussette
                                            ... I don´t see there the very beginning, how those people ++started++ changing things in their own communities to get the process going, how and why and what
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Sep 11, 2007
                                              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Martín Segovia <martsego@...> wrote:
                                              I don´t see there the very beginning, how
                                              those people ++started++ changing things
                                              in their own communities to get the process
                                              going, how and why and what allowed the
                                              rise of these fellows over their kin
                                              rupturing all traditions and old social
                                              bonds, how they managed to do so and how
                                              that can be appreciated in the archaeological
                                              record in prehistoric Egypt, that is what
                                              I see of new in this approach and not
                                              repeating all over the discovery of
                                              America.

                                              martin,
                                              The hymn to man in the rg veda precisely records the substantive
                                              changes in hierarchalization and specialization that must be made to
                                              move from a pastoral/tribal existence to nation state.

                                              When they dismembered Man,
                                              Into how many parts did they separate him?
                                              What was his mouth, what his arms,
                                              What did they call his thighs and feet?
                                              The Brahmin was his mouth;
                                              The Rajanya (Princes) became his arms;
                                              His thighs produced the Vaisya (professionals and merchants);
                                              His feet gave birth to the Sudra (laborer).


                                              Man is dismembered when he moves from tribal to landed society. The
                                              dismemberment is specialization into priest/warrior classes, a
                                              transition that is theologically resisted in Genesis when Joseph
                                              arranges for his family to remain shepherds in Egypt and symbolized
                                              when Cain (the farmer) kills Abel (the shepherd).
                                              The overriding theology of the hebrew bible and the christian gospels
                                              says that a man of God has the "law written on his heart."
                                              It logically follows that a man with the law written on his heart has
                                              no need of a written law maintained by a priestly caste. He is
                                              not "of the nations." His social structure is tribal. he is of the
                                              order of melchizedek: priest AND warrior.

                                              The Persian diaspora is described by Bryant as the imposition of a
                                              socioethnic elite over landed states. In the story of Joseph in Egypt
                                              we have Joseph's family, a socioethnic elite serving as intermediary
                                              functionaries (controllers and the pharoah' s herdsmen), between the
                                              pharoah and the formerly free farmers of Egypt.

                                              It is also necessary for tribesmen, wishing to dominate landed
                                              states, to serve in a landed state, learn the structure and then
                                              return to their people and teach them how to master it and fulfill
                                              specialized functions as Moses did.

                                              rich faussette
                                            • Mikey Brass
                                              ... There is a wealth of literature on the inherent dangers of uncritically applying ethnography. There have been too many inaccurate instances of applying
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Sep 11, 2007
                                                Martín Segovia wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Mikey Brass <michael.brass@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >> Getting *ideas* from reading a a broad range of ethnography is not
                                                >> something I disagree with, of course. However, successfully
                                                >> *applying*
                                                >> ethnographic concepts is a different animal.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Well, you don´t know if what you find in one
                                                > region of the world can be "applied" to another
                                                > until you try and see how well it explains the
                                                > problem at hand there or not, but a priori
                                                > rejecting that it can be applied or expressing
                                                > a distrust to such approaches is closing one´s
                                                > mind to possibilities that can be good answers
                                                > to problems such as the birth and growth of
                                                > complexity in a given place and time.

                                                There is a wealth of literature on the inherent dangers of uncritically
                                                applying ethnography. There have been too many inaccurate instances of
                                                applying non-African ethnography to African contexts for me to be
                                                anything but cautious. I trust you noticed that what I stated in my
                                                messages differs from your above summary of them.


                                                --
                                                Best, Mikey Brass
                                                MA in Archaeology degree, University College London
                                                "The Antiquity of Man" http://www.antiquityofman.com
                                                Book: "The Antiquity of Man: Artifactual, fossil and gene records explored"

                                                - !ke e: /xarra //ke
                                                ("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
                                              • Samuel Lerner
                                                ... to ... Your approach seems quite different to others here, should we strive to understand these things through theology or legends? best regards, ....
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Sep 11, 2007
                                                  --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "richfaussette" <RFaussette@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > The hymn to man in the rg veda precisely records the substantive
                                                  > changes in hierarchalization and specialization that must be made
                                                  to
                                                  > move from a pastoral/tribal existence to nation state.
                                                  >
                                                  > When they dismembered Man,
                                                  > Into how many parts did they separate him?
                                                  > What was his mouth, what his arms,
                                                  > What did they call his thighs and feet?
                                                  > The Brahmin was his mouth;
                                                  > The Rajanya (Princes) became his arms;
                                                  > His thighs produced the Vaisya (professionals and merchants);
                                                  > His feet gave birth to the Sudra (laborer).
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Man is dismembered when he moves from tribal to landed society. The
                                                  > dismemberment is specialization into priest/warrior classes, a
                                                  > transition that is theologically resisted in Genesis when Joseph
                                                  > arranges for his family to remain shepherds in Egypt and symbolized
                                                  > when Cain (the farmer) kills Abel (the shepherd).
                                                  >



                                                  Your approach seems quite different to others here, should we strive
                                                  to understand these things through theology or legends?

                                                  best regards,

                                                  .... Samuel Lerner
                                                • richfaussette
                                                  ... The ... symbolized ... Samuel, My approach is based on the evolution of social systems and the comparative psychology of religion. What I did in the
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Sep 12, 2007
                                                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Samuel Lerner" <samulern@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "richfaussette" <RFaussette@> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > The hymn to man in the rg veda precisely records the substantive
                                                    > > changes in hierarchalization and specialization that must be made
                                                    > to
                                                    > > move from a pastoral/tribal existence to nation state.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > When they dismembered Man,
                                                    > > Into how many parts did they separate him?
                                                    > > What was his mouth, what his arms,
                                                    > > What did they call his thighs and feet?
                                                    > > The Brahmin was his mouth;
                                                    > > The Rajanya (Princes) became his arms;
                                                    > > His thighs produced the Vaisya (professionals and merchants);
                                                    > > His feet gave birth to the Sudra (laborer).
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Man is dismembered when he moves from tribal to landed society.
                                                    The
                                                    > > dismemberment is specialization into priest/warrior classes, a
                                                    > > transition that is theologically resisted in Genesis when Joseph
                                                    > > arranges for his family to remain shepherds in Egypt and
                                                    symbolized
                                                    > > when Cain (the farmer) kills Abel (the shepherd).
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Your approach seems quite different to others here, should we strive
                                                    > to understand these things through theology or legends?
                                                    >
                                                    > best regards,
                                                    >
                                                    > .... Samuel Lerner


                                                    Samuel,
                                                    My approach is based on the evolution of social systems and the
                                                    comparative psychology of religion. What I did in the previous post
                                                    was show how the theology conforms to the structure of the social
                                                    system under discussion.
                                                    I am not a scholar. I do not presume to know what the scholars on
                                                    this list know. I have simply looked at the evolution of religion
                                                    from a Darwinian perspective rather than fight the common fight,
                                                    religion versus science and the result after a quarter century of
                                                    effort has been productive for me.
                                                    Do you disagree with anything I've written? Please object and I will
                                                    clarify.


                                                    rich faussette
                                                  • Samuel Lerner
                                                    ... Thanks, this is all I wanted to know. Shana tova. .... Samuel Lerner
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Sep 12, 2007
                                                      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "richfaussette" <RFaussette@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > I am not a scholar. I do not presume to know what the scholars on
                                                      > this list know. I have simply looked at the evolution of religion
                                                      > from a Darwinian perspective rather than fight the common fight,
                                                      > religion versus science and the result after a quarter century of
                                                      > effort has been productive for me.


                                                      Thanks, this is all I wanted to know.

                                                      Shana tova.

                                                      .... Samuel Lerner
                                                    • richfaussette
                                                      ... There is a bit more - perhaps others would be interested. The following lines appear in wikipedia (we ll use it as a resource for the purposes of
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Sep 17, 2007
                                                        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Samuel Lerner" <samulern@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "richfaussette" <RFaussette@> wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > > I am not a scholar. I do not presume to know what the scholars on
                                                        > > this list know. I have simply looked at the evolution of religion
                                                        > > from a Darwinian perspective rather than fight the common fight,
                                                        > > religion versus science and the result after a quarter century of
                                                        > > effort has been productive for me.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Thanks, this is all I wanted to know.
                                                        >
                                                        > Shana tova.
                                                        >
                                                        > .... Samuel Lerner
                                                        >



                                                        There is a bit more - perhaps others would be interested. The
                                                        following lines appear in wikipedia (we'll use it as a resource for
                                                        the purposes of illustration).

                                                        "Nonetheless, "the precarious condition in which they lived for a
                                                        considerable period made it impracticable for them to keep up their
                                                        former proselytizing zeal. The instinctive fear of disintegration and
                                                        absorption in the vast multitudes among whom they lived created in
                                                        them a spirit of exclusiveness and a strong feeling for the
                                                        preservation of the racial characteristics and distinctive features
                                                        of their community. Living in an atmosphere surcharged with the Hindu
                                                        caste system, they felt that their own safety lay in encircling
                                                        their fold by rigid caste barriers" (Dhalla, 1938:474). Even so, at
                                                        some point (perhaps not long after their arrival in India), the
                                                        Zoroastrians - perhaps determining that the social stratification
                                                        that they had brought with them was unsustainable in the small
                                                        community - did away with all but the hereditary priesthood (called
                                                        the asronih in Sassanid Iran). The remaining estates - the
                                                        (r)atheshtarih (nobility, soldiers, and civil servants), vastaryoshih
                                                        (farmers and herdsmen), hutokshih (artisans and laborers) - were
                                                        folded into an all-comprehensive class today known as the behdini
                                                        ("followers of daena", for which "good religion" is one translation).
                                                        This change would have far reaching consequences. For one, it opened
                                                        the gene pool to some extent since until that time inter-class
                                                        marriages were exceedingly rare (this would continue to be a
                                                        problem for the priesthood until the 20th century). For another, it
                                                        did away with the boundaries along occupational lines, a factor that
                                                        would enamour the Parsis to the 18th and 19th century British
                                                        colonial authorities who had little patience for the unpredictable
                                                        complications of the Hindu caste system (such as a clerk from one
                                                        caste who would not deal with a clerk from another)."



                                                        Now recall Pierre Bryant's description of the Persian diaspora as a
                                                        socioethnic elite (From Cyrus to Alexander) as you consider the
                                                        conscious decision by the Parsis above to shed priest/warrior
                                                        stratification to live in diaspora in India. Now further consider the
                                                        conquest of Canaan in the Hebrew bible as a nation building exercise
                                                        in which just the opposite occurs. Rather than being shed, the
                                                        stratification is created (priesthood and military organized by
                                                        Moses). So, the split into priest/warrior classes is described in the
                                                        bible, but where do we see the same priestly/pastoral diaspora social
                                                        structure described for the Parsis in the Hebrew bible?

                                                        We find it in Genesis.

                                                        My essay on this matter will be published this fall in the Occidental
                                                        Quarterly. It is titled THE BOOK OF GENESIS FROM A DARWINIAN
                                                        PERSPECTIVE.

                                                        The Hebrew bible contains a formula for nation building and another
                                                        formula (allegorized in the book of genesis) for living in diaspora.

                                                        rich faussette
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