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Transoxiana 12, Agosto 2007 - Online

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  • Paola Raffetta
    Transoxiana, Journal Libre de Estudios Orientales ISSN 1666-7050 www.transoxiana.org ... Transoxiana 12 - Agosto 2007 * Editorial
    Message 1 of 29 , Aug 31 11:54 AM
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      Transoxiana, Journal Libre de Estudios Orientales
      ISSN 1666-7050
      www.transoxiana.org

      -----------------------------------------
      Transoxiana 12 - Agosto 2007


      * Editorial
      http://www.transoxiana.org/12/editorial.php

      * On Kalila wa Dimna and Persian National Fairy Tales
      Dr. Pavel Basharin, Department of Iranian Studies, Russian State
      University for the Humanities, Moscow, Russia.
      http://www.transoxiana.org/12/basharin-persian_fairytales.php

      * El desarrollo de la Idea Mesiánica en los Textos de la Cueva 4Q, la
      Literatura Apocalíptica y los Evangelios Sinópticos
      Lic. Laura Bizzarro, Universidad Catolica Argentina.
      http://www.transoxiana.org/12/bizzarro-mesianismo_qumran.php

      * Arte e Religião na Rota da Seda - as Transformações na Iconografia Budista
      Dr. André Bueno, Faculdade Estadual de Filosofia, Ciências e Letras de
      União da Vitória (FAFIUV), Brasil.
      http://www.transoxiana.org/12/bueno-religion_silkroad.php

      * Buddhist Activity in Pre-Islamic Persia According to Literary
      Sources and Archaeology
      Dr. Matteo Compareti, Venecia, Italia.
      http://www.transoxiana.org/12/compareti-iranian_buddhism.php

      * Immortals In Ancient Iranian Myths
      Gholnar Ghal'e Khani (PhD), Parvin Ghasemi (PhD), Shahram Razmjooee,
      Shiraz University, Iran.
      http://www.transoxiana.org/12/ghasemi_khani-iranian_immortals.php

      * Modernización del modelo de familia y del rol de la mujer en Corea del Sur
      Elementos del chamanismo y del confucianismo presentes en el proceso de cambio
      Paula Marina Iadevito, Universidad de Buenos Aires, Argentina.
      http://www.transoxiana.org/12/iadevito-familia_mujer_corea.php

      * On the Origin of the Place-Name Buxārā
      Dr. Shamsiddin Kamoliddin, Tashkent Academy of Science, Uzbekistan
      http://www.transoxiana.org/12/kamoliddin-buxara.php

      * Armenios de Irán en España y Sudamérica en los siglos XVII y XVIII
      Vartán Matiossián, USAL + Hovnanian School, USA
      http://www.transoxiana.org/12/matiossian-armenia_america.php

      * Central Asian Jewelry and their Symbols in Ancient Time
      Dr. Elena Neva, Independent Scholar, USA.
      http://www.transoxiana.org/12/neva-jewelry_symbols.php

      * Kalila wa Dimna on Silk
      Paintings by Elena Uzdenikova, Russia.
      http://www.transoxiana.org/12/uzdenikova-kalila_dimna.php

      * The Biggest Expedition
      Studying the Ancient Iranian World: Chorasmian Expedition of S.P. Tolstov
      Sergey A. Yatsenko, Russian State University for the Humanities, Moscow, Russia.
      http://www.transoxiana.org/12/yatsenko-tolstov_chorasmia.php

      Book Reviews:

      * Identité personnelle et nexus psychophysique dans la civilisation
      byzantine, 313-1453. Une recension de: Antoine Courban, (2007), "Why
      one is not another?"
      María Andrea Piñeda, Universidad Nacional de San Luis, Argentina
      http://www.transoxiana.org/12/pineda-review_courban.php


      * Permanent Call for Papers
      http://www.transoxiana.org/call_for_papers.html
      * Past Issues
      http://www.transoxiana.org/archivo.html
      * RSS
      http://www.transoxiana.org/rss-feed.xml


      Paola E. Raffetta, Editora
      editor[at]transoxiana.org

      --
      http://www.paolaraffetta.com.ar
      estudios orientales - internet

      The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man
      persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. All progress,
      therefore, depends upon the unreasonable man. -- G. B. Shaw

      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    • Antonio Lombatti
      Archaeologists working in Syria have unearthed the remains of dozens of youths thought to have been killed in a fierce confrontation 6,000 years ago. According
      Message 2 of 29 , Sep 1, 2007
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        Archaeologists working in Syria have unearthed the remains of dozens of youths thought to have been killed in a fierce confrontation 6,000 years ago.

        According to Science magazine, the celebrating victors may even have feasted on beef in the aftermath.

        The findings come from northeastern Syria, near Tell Brak, one of the world's oldest known cities.

        The full BBC article can be read here:

        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6971289.stm

        Antonio Lombatti
      • Eliot Braun
        The notion of secondary burial suggests these pits are similar to south Levantine burial customs of the Chalcolithic period. I get the feeling that these pits
        Message 3 of 29 , Sep 1, 2007
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          The notion of secondary burial suggests these pits are similar to south Levantine burial customs of the Chalcolithic period. I get the feeling that these pits may represent burials over a span of time rather than single-events. That would detract somewhat from the suggested dramatic scenario in the article. Perhaps as interesting is the archaeologist's name, Jason "Ur".

          Eliot Braun, Ph D
          Ha-oren 12, Har Adar, Israel 90836
          Tel. 972-2-5345687

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Antonio Lombatti
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 5:55 PM
          Subject: [ANE-2] Ancient Mass Burials


          Archaeologists working in Syria have unearthed the remains of dozens of youths thought to have been killed in a fierce confrontation 6,000 years ago.

          According to Science magazine, the celebrating victors may even have feasted on beef in the aftermath.

          The findings come from northeastern Syria, near Tell Brak, one of the world's oldest known cities.

          The full BBC article can be read here:

          http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6971289.stm

          Antonio Lombatti





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • cejo@uchicago.edu
          Jason is real, and indeed vey interesting. He s on the Anthropology faculty at Harvard and a graduate of Chicago. Read his dissertation at:
          Message 4 of 29 , Sep 1, 2007
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            Jason is real, and indeed vey interesting. He's on the Anthropology faculty at Harvard and a graduate of Chicago. Read his
            dissertation at:
            http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/library/dissertation/ur.html

            -Chuck Jones-
            Athens



            ---- Original message ----
            >Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 00:54:20 +0300
            >From: Eliot Braun <ebraun@...>
            >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Ancient Mass Burials
            >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > The notion of secondary burial suggests these pits are similar to south Levantine burial
            > customs of the Chalcolithic period. I get the feeling that these pits may represent
            > burials over a span of time rather than single-events. That would detract somewhat from
            > the suggested dramatic scenario in the article. Perhaps as interesting is the
            > archaeologist's name, Jason "Ur".
            >
            > Eliot Braun, Ph D
            > Ha-oren 12, Har Adar, Israel 90836
            > Tel. 972-2-5345687
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Antonio Lombatti
            > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 5:55 PM
            > Subject: [ANE-2] Ancient Mass Burials
            >
            > Archaeologists working in Syria have unearthed the remains of dozens of youths thought to
            > have been killed in a fierce confrontation 6,000 years ago.
            >
            > According to Science magazine, the celebrating victors may even have feasted on beef in
            > the aftermath.
            >
            > The findings come from northeastern Syria, near Tell Brak, one of the world's oldest known
            > cities.
            >
            > The full BBC article can be read here:
            >
            > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6971289.stm
            >
            > Antonio Lombatti
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
          • Peter Westh
            ... The link to the dissertation text itself seems to be dead? Peter Westh PhD student University of Copenhagen Department of Cross-cultural and Regional
            Message 5 of 29 , Sep 2, 2007
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              > Jason is real, and indeed vey interesting. He's on the
              > Anthropology faculty at Harvard and a graduate of Chicago. Read his
              > dissertation at:
              > http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/library/dissertation/ur.html
              >
              > -Chuck Jones-
              > Athens

              The link to the dissertation text itself seems to be dead?


              Peter Westh
              PhD student
              University of Copenhagen
              Department of Cross-cultural and Regional Studies
              History of Religions Section
              Artillerivej 86, room 2.06
              DK-2300 Copenhagen
              Denmark
            • Niels Peter Lemche
              Found this:
              Message 6 of 29 , Sep 2, 2007
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                Found this:

                http://libcat.uchicago.edu/ipac20/ipac.jsp?session=11O87H06Q2541.16146&profile=ucpublic&uri=full=3100001~!5536183~!3&ri=1&aspect=subtab13&menu=search&source=~!horizon

                Niels Peter Lemche

                -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Peter Westh
                Sendt: 2. september 2007 09:55
                Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Emne: RE: [ANE-2] Ancient Mass Burials

                > Jason is real, and indeed vey interesting. He's on the
                > Anthropology faculty at Harvard and a graduate of Chicago. Read his
                > dissertation at:
                > http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/library/dissertation/ur.html
                >
                > -Chuck Jones-
                > Athens

                The link to the dissertation text itself seems to be dead?


                Peter Westh
                PhD student
                University of Copenhagen
                Department of Cross-cultural and Regional Studies
                History of Religions Section
                Artillerivej 86, room 2.06
                DK-2300 Copenhagen
                Denmark



                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • Antonio Lombatti
                Dr. Ur, Harvard University, speaks of the recent discoveries in terms of urbanism: http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/article/20070901/NEWS/709010382/1033/NEWS01
                Message 7 of 29 , Sep 2, 2007
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                  Dr. Ur, Harvard University, speaks of the recent discoveries in terms of urbanism:

                  http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/article/20070901/NEWS/709010382/1033/NEWS01

                  Antonio Lombatti
                • Antonio Lombatti
                  Professor Juan José Castillos, of the Uruguayan Institute of Egyptology, claims that the evolution of the Egyptian civilisation resulted from the ambition of
                  Message 8 of 29 , Sep 2, 2007
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                    Professor Juan José Castillos, of the Uruguayan Institute of Egyptology, claims that the evolution of the Egyptian civilisation resulted from the ambition of individuals with a strong inclination towards exerting power. He presented his thesis yesterday at the 2nd National Summit for Egyptology Studies, in the southern Brazilian city of Curitiba.

                    The full report can be read here:

                    http://www.anba.com.br/ingles/noticia.php?id=15771

                    Antonio Lombatti
                  • George F Somsel
                    Now who d a thunk that? It appears that this is something that is at least implicit in virtually any concept of the development of civilization. george
                    Message 9 of 29 , Sep 3, 2007
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                      Now who'd a thunk that? It appears that this is something that is at least implicit in virtually any concept of the development of civilization.

                      george
                      gfsomsel

                      Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                      learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                      defend the truth till death.

                      - Jan Hus
                      _________



                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...>
                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2007 6:41:06 AM
                      Subject: [ANE-2] New Theory on the Evolution of Egypt

                      Professor Juan José Castillos, of the Uruguayan Institute of Egyptology, claims that the evolution of the Egyptian civilisation resulted from the ambition of individuals with a strong inclination towards exerting power. He presented his thesis yesterday at the 2nd National Summit for Egyptology Studies, in the southern Brazilian city of Curitiba.

                      The full report can be read here:

                      http://www.anba com.br/ingles/ noticia.php? id=15771

                      Antonio Lombatti.



                      ____________________________________________________________________________________
                      Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
                      http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Martín Segovia
                      ... at least implicit in virtually any concept of the development of civilization. ... Maybe if you judge by the simplistic way journalists put it, but I think
                      Message 10 of 29 , Sep 3, 2007
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                        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Now who'd a thunk that? It appears that this is something that is
                        at least implicit in virtually any concept of the development of
                        civilization.
                        >
                        > george
                        > gfsomsel




                        Maybe if you judge by the simplistic way journalists
                        put it, but I think that as a theory it was advanced
                        only about 15 years ago in anthropology and AFAIK never
                        for egyptology where demography, circumscription, the
                        need for control over irrigation, etc., etc. had not
                        very convincingly been advanced before and the concept
                        in all its implications seems to be a fairly original
                        idea for the early development of complexity in Egypt.

                        Doesn´t it at least deserve a fair hearing when it is
                        more academically presented? Maybe it has already been
                        and I haven´t seen it. I didn´t attend the meeting they
                        mention, has anybody here?

                        Martin



                        >
                        > ----- Original Message ----
                        > From: Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...>
                        > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2007 6:41:06 AM
                        > Subject: [ANE-2] New Theory on the Evolution of Egypt
                        >
                        > Professor Juan José Castillos, of the Uruguayan Institute of
                        Egyptology, claims that the evolution of the Egyptian civilisation
                        resulted from the ambition of individuals with a strong inclination
                        towards exerting power. He presented his thesis yesterday at the 2nd
                        National Summit for Egyptology Studies, in the southern Brazilian
                        city of Curitiba.
                        >
                        > The full report can be read here:
                        >
                        > http://www.anba com.br/ingles/ noticia.php? id=15771
                        >
                        > Antonio Lombatti.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        ______________________________________________________________________
                        ______________
                        > Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative
                        vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
                        > http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • B. Andelkovic
                        With the past and present civilizations in mind, overambitious, power-hungry individuals and conflict over power can hardly be labeled as new . As far as
                        Message 11 of 29 , Sep 6, 2007
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                          With the past and present "civilizations" in mind, overambitious, power-hungry individuals and conflict over power can hardly be labeled as "new".

                          As far as the state formation in Naqada IIC-IID1 Egypt (ca. 3500 BC) is concerned (power conflict as the true prime mover/dominant factor included) perhaps this might be of interest:


                          Andelkovic, B., 2004, The Upper Egyptian Commonwealth: A Crucial Phase of the State Formation Process. Pp. 535-546 in Egypt at its Origins. Studies in Memory of Barbara Adams. Proceedings of the International Conference "Origin of the State. Predynastic and Early Dynastic Egypt", Krakow, 28th August - 1st September 2002. Orientalia Lovaniensia Analecta 138, eds. S. Hendrickx, R. F. Friedman, K. M. Cialowicz, and M. Chlodnicki. Leuven, Paris and Dudley, MA: Uitgeverij Peeters and Departement Oosterose Studies.

                          Andelkovic, B., Models of State Formation in Predynastic Egypt. In Archaeology of Early Northeastern Africa: In Memory of Lech Krzyzaniak. Studies in African Archaeology 9, eds. K. Kroeper, M. Chlodnicki and M. Kobusiewicz. Poznan: Poznan Archaeological Museum (2006, in press).

                          Andelkovic, B., Parameters of Statehood in Predynastic Egypt. In L'Egypte pré- et protodynastique. Les origines de l'Etat. Toulouse (France) 5-8 sept.2005, eds. B. Midant-Reynes, Y. Tristant, S. Hendrickx, and R. F. Friedman. [The Proceedings are to be published by Peeters Publishers at Leuven, Orientalia Lovaniensia Analecta series. Their publication is planned for the end of year 2007.]


                          ____________________________________________
                          Dr. Branislav Andelkovic
                          Asst. Professor of Near Eastern Archaeology
                          Faculty of Philosophy, Department of Archaeology
                          Cika Ljubina 18-20, 11000 Belgrade, Serbia
                          E-mail: B.Andelkovic@...
                          Tel.+381 11 3206 235; Fax.+381 11 2639 356
                          ____________________________________________
                          The Belgrade Mummy: http://www.f.bg.ac.yu/bemum/

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Martín Segovia
                          ... power-hungry individuals and conflict over power can hardly be labeled as new . ... BC) is concerned (power conflict as the true prime mover/dominant ...
                          Message 12 of 29 , Sep 7, 2007
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                            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "B. Andelkovic" <B.Andelkovic@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > With the past and present "civilizations" in mind, overambitious,
                            power-hungry individuals and conflict over power can hardly be
                            labeled as "new".
                            >
                            > As far as the state formation in Naqada IIC-IID1 Egypt (ca. 3500
                            BC) is concerned (power conflict as the true prime mover/dominant
                            factor included) perhaps this might be of interest:
                            >
                            >
                            (several references given)

                            >
                            > ____________________________________________
                            > Dr. Branislav Andelkovic
                            > Asst. Professor of Near Eastern Archaeology
                            > Faculty of Philosophy, Department of Archaeology
                            > Cika Ljubina 18-20, 11000 Belgrade, Serbia
                            > E-mail: B.Andelkovic@...
                            > Tel.+381 11 3206 235; Fax.+381 11 2639 356
                            > ____________________________________________
                            > The Belgrade Mummy: http://www.f.bg.ac.yu/bemum/
                            >





                            I am afraid you might have missed the point. It´s
                            quite clear that individuals and their power struggles
                            are not new in egyptology, but the concept of "aggrandisers"
                            and how they came about and even if it is an adequate
                            explanation for the appearance of hereditary chiefs
                            in formerly somewhat egalitarian groups, is a subject
                            much discussed in modern anthropology, and applied to
                            the beginning of class stratification in predynastic
                            Egypt I have never read it discussed in any egyptology
                            book or paper so far. It apparently requires looking
                            for different kinds of evidence in the archaeological
                            record.

                            All the interpretations I have read about deal with
                            other possible causes for this phenomenon, as I pointed
                            out in an earlier post.

                            So, if you can provide precise references in which
                            this modern anthropological concept is applied to Egypt,
                            then this research would not be ´new´, but if you cannot,
                            then this would definitely be new and original.

                            Just some thoughts I wanted to share.

                            Cheers,

                            Martin Segovia
                          • Osvaldo
                            Just for information, about the controversy of New Theory on the Evolution of Egypt, of professor J. J. Castillos’s webpage:
                            Message 13 of 29 , Sep 8, 2007
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                              Just for information, about the controversy of New Theory on the Evolution
                              of Egypt, of professor J. J. Castillos’s webpage:



                              http://www.geocities.com/jjcastillos/complexity.html



                              Fraternally,



                              Osvaldo Luiz Ribeiro

                              Brasil





                              _____

                              De: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] Em nome de Martín
                              Segovia
                              Enviada em: sexta-feira, 7 de setembro de 2007 14:45
                              Para: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                              Assunto: [ANE-2] Re: New Theory on the Evolution of Egypt





                              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com, "B.
                              Andelkovic" <B.Andelkovic@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > With the past and present "civilizations" in mind, overambitious,
                              power-hungry individuals and conflict over power can hardly be
                              labeled as "new".
                              >
                              > As far as the state formation in Naqada IIC-IID1 Egypt (ca. 3500
                              BC) is concerned (power conflict as the true prime mover/dominant
                              factor included) perhaps this might be of interest:
                              >
                              >
                              (several references given)

                              >
                              > ____________________________________________
                              > Dr. Branislav Andelkovic
                              > Asst. Professor of Near Eastern Archaeology
                              > Faculty of Philosophy, Department of Archaeology
                              > Cika Ljubina 18-20, 11000 Belgrade, Serbia
                              > E-mail: B.Andelkovic@...
                              > Tel.+381 11 3206 235; Fax.+381 11 2639 356
                              > ____________________________________________
                              > The Belgrade Mummy: http://www.f <http://www.f.bg.ac.yu/bemum/>
                              bg.ac.yu/bemum/
                              >

                              I am afraid you might have missed the point. It´s
                              quite clear that individuals and their power struggles
                              are not new in egyptology, but the concept of "aggrandisers"
                              and how they came about and even if it is an adequate
                              explanation for the appearance of hereditary chiefs
                              in formerly somewhat egalitarian groups, is a subject
                              much discussed in modern anthropology, and applied to
                              the beginning of class stratification in predynastic
                              Egypt I have never read it discussed in any egyptology
                              book or paper so far. It apparently requires looking
                              for different kinds of evidence in the archaeological
                              record.

                              All the interpretations I have read about deal with
                              other possible causes for this phenomenon, as I pointed
                              out in an earlier post.

                              So, if you can provide precise references in which
                              this modern anthropological concept is applied to Egypt,
                              then this research would not be ´new´, but if you cannot,
                              then this would definitely be new and original.

                              Just some thoughts I wanted to share.

                              Cheers,

                              Martin Segovia





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Mikey Brass
                              ... I tend to agree with the scholars criticising the concept of aggranisers on practical and theoretical grounds. One aspects of the criticism is it treats
                              Message 14 of 29 , Sep 8, 2007
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                                Osvaldo wrote:

                                > http://www.geocities.com/jjcastillos/complexity.html

                                I tend to agree with the scholars criticising the concept of aggranisers
                                on practical and theoretical grounds. One aspects of the criticism is it
                                treats the predynastic inhabitants of the Nile Valley as a region upon
                                which to impose theoretical models constructed from examples outside of
                                Africa.

                                --
                                Best, Mikey Brass
                                MA in Archaeology degree, University College London
                                "The Antiquity of Man" http://www.antiquityofman.com
                                Book: "The Antiquity of Man: Artifactual, fossil and gene records explored"

                                - !ke e: /xarra //ke
                                ("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
                              • Jon Smyth
                                Is it not perceived that in order for a social group to evolve interaction is required between different social groups? That a group which remains isolated is
                                Message 15 of 29 , Sep 9, 2007
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                                  Is it not perceived that in order for a social group to evolve
                                  interaction is required between different social groups?
                                  That a group which remains isolated is more likely to remain static?

                                  Progressive evolution of a select society may well be as a result of
                                  aggressive contact with the outside world. I think it has been readily
                                  demonstrated that conflicts tend to result in 'leaps-forward' in
                                  technology in all ages.
                                  Ironically there can be mutual benefits from mutual aggression between
                                  differing social groups.

                                  Are you concerned about a revamping of Petrie's Dynastic Race Theory?

                                  Best Wishes, Jon Smyth
                                  Toronto, CAN.


                                  --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Mikey Brass <michael.brass@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Osvaldo wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > http://www.geocities.com/jjcastillos/complexity.html
                                  >
                                  > I tend to agree with the scholars criticising the concept of
                                  aggranisers
                                  > on practical and theoretical grounds. One aspects of the criticism
                                  is it
                                  > treats the predynastic inhabitants of the Nile Valley as a region upon
                                  > which to impose theoretical models constructed from examples outside of
                                  > Africa.
                                  >
                                • Martín Segovia
                                  ... aggranisers ... is it ... upon ... outside of ... Why not? Not forcing them into the data but checking if they make sense or not, after all, man is
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Sep 9, 2007
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                                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Mikey Brass <michael.brass@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I tend to agree with the scholars criticising the concept of
                                    aggranisers
                                    > on practical and theoretical grounds. One aspects of the criticism
                                    is it
                                    > treats the predynastic inhabitants of the Nile Valley as a region
                                    upon
                                    > which to impose theoretical models constructed from examples
                                    outside of
                                    > Africa.
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    > Best, Mikey Brass
                                    > MA in Archaeology degree, University College London





                                    Why not? Not forcing them into the data but
                                    checking if they make sense or not, after
                                    all, man is basically the same everywhere.
                                    I don´t see anybody ´imposing´ anything on
                                    anybody but rather exploring possibilities.

                                    Following your views, then Carneiro´s ideas
                                    about circumscription should not have been
                                    applied to Egypt and Bard should not have
                                    joined him for the purpose because if I
                                    remember right, he originally conceived them
                                    for Peru. Still, those views were published
                                    and (for a while) received respectful attention.

                                    That would seem to me adopting a very narrow
                                    minded approach that would impoverish rather
                                    than increase knowledge.

                                    From my readings in archaeology and anthropology
                                    it seems that evidence and theoretical views
                                    emerging from all over the world are tested
                                    everywhere, and this seems a fertile pursuit.

                                    Sincerely,

                                    Martin Segovia
                                  • Mikey Brass
                                    ... I do not accept the concept of progressive evolution . Cultural structures, a higher abstraction level resting upon social organisational principles, are
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Sep 9, 2007
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                                      Jon Smyth wrote:
                                      > Is it not perceived that in order for a social group to evolve
                                      > interaction is required between different social groups?
                                      > That a group which remains isolated is more likely to remain static?
                                      >
                                      > Progressive evolution of a select society may well be as a result of
                                      > aggressive contact with the outside world. I think it has been readily
                                      > demonstrated that conflicts tend to result in 'leaps-forward' in
                                      > technology in all ages.
                                      > Ironically there can be mutual benefits from mutual aggression between
                                      > differing social groups.

                                      I do not accept the concept of "progressive evolution".

                                      Cultural structures, a higher abstraction level resting upon social
                                      organisational principles, are inherently vested with the
                                      trappings of power symbolism. This power symbolism has been defined as
                                      “a complex of thoughts, rules and practices…which describe and explain
                                      the functioning meaning and goal of a social group” (Skalnik 1996, 86).
                                      To the degree by which symbols of power are co-opted towards political
                                      ends, political ideology manifests itself as “a specific set of
                                      thoughts and rules regulating the co-existence of people on one
                                      territory…[embracing] more people…[and] explains why particular people
                                      should be rulers and others not” (Skalnik 1996, 86).

                                      The incorporation of symbols into the ideological trappings of political
                                      power questions to what degree these events parallel the transformation
                                      of essentially egalitarian modes of production into social hierarchies.
                                      Fieldwork conducted amongst the Moors and Tuaregs of the Sahara and
                                      Sahel (Bonte 1977), the Dii of Cameroon (Muller 1996) and the Nanumba
                                      polity in northern Ghana (Skalnik 1996), amongst others, has reinforced
                                      the notion of recognition of multiple forms of political organisation
                                      advocated by Fried (1967).

                                      The manifestations and nature of egalitarian political and
                                      socio-economic societies are well documented in the literature (Barnard
                                      1992, Fried 1967, Smith et al. 2000). What is important
                                      to note, however, is that while the environment is an active and
                                      important component of patterns of landscape exploitation, development
                                      of a ranked society from an egalitarian base in a pristine situation
                                      occurs through a combination of indigenous stimuli and variables
                                      (Fried 1967). Rank societies regulate behaviour through shared ethnic
                                      group membership differentiated into a formalised kinship network based
                                      on descent principles, labour divisions based on age and sex,
                                      redistributing integrated economic resources on a village as
                                      opposed to individual level (thus enhancing the status of the
                                      redistributor) and having the loci of co-operation centred around the
                                      ethnic group (Fried 1967, McElreath et al. 2003).

                                      Further delineations are required between centralised states and
                                      stateless segmentary lineage systems. In the latter, ritual and
                                      political influence have contrasting spheres of control:
                                      ritual activities in the peripheral areas are in constant flux, while
                                      the seat of political authority is centred on the core domains of the
                                      territory held in place by checks and balances of ritual sanction and
                                      institutionalised interdependence (Southall 1988b). The Nanumba
                                      political structure of northern Ghana is an example of a society whose
                                      power does not rest on the formalised structure of a state, but whose
                                      different groups and institutions function interdependently through a
                                      shared symbolic/cognitive manifestation of ritual, tradition and
                                      authority as the source of legitimation (Skalnik 1996).

                                      Muller (1996) has highlighted the intertwined political and ideological
                                      groupings of the Dii and Gbaya in Cameroon as examples of different
                                      political entities. The Dii chief undergoes a series of induction rites
                                      upon his succession which are seen to legitimise his rule and provide
                                      him with the strength, knowledge and humility to govern. Through this
                                      process, the right of rulership is based on contracts between the
                                      institution of the chief, who is also the chief priest, and those who
                                      are ruled. The Gbaya are a population living to the south of the
                                      Dii. While they too are organised into clans, the difference between
                                      them and the Dii is the Gbaya have no formalised hereditary leadership;
                                      their ideology of egalitarianism promotes splinter tendencies (Muller 1996).

                                      While constructs of societal nexus are generally orientated towards
                                      identifying either power symbols in polities such as state societies or
                                      to identify the use of symbolic constructs in egalitarian cultures,
                                      Renfrew (2001) has drawn attention to the feedback mechanisms of
                                      four crucial concepts. However, Renfrew’s model does not adequately
                                      account for ritual as a force for stability and change. Marxist (Bloch
                                      1977), ecological anthropological (Rappaport 1979) and Neo-Darwinian
                                      (Bettinger 1991) perspectives differ on the privileging of ritual as a
                                      casual or derivative principle. Despite this, there remains the issue of
                                      what factors integrate ritual with the social dynamics inherent in
                                      emerging social hierarchies. Dual inheritance theory (Boyd and Richerson
                                      1985) has been used to integrate ritual and social inequality into a
                                      model outlining how ritually sanctioned justification may be monopolised
                                      by high ranking individuals to increase their lineage’s wealth and
                                      social status (Aldenderfer 1993). Giddens’ (1984) theory of
                                      structuration and the concepts of agency (Barrett 2001) and
                                      indirectly biased transmission (Boyd and Richerson 1985) are powerful
                                      theoretical tools for explaining how social complexity subsequently
                                      became institutionalised. Spencer (1993) uses these theoretical
                                      constructions to hypothesize how transient “simultaneous
                                      hierarchy” (achieved status) evolves into permanent elite, using agency
                                      as the catalyst and structuration as the cultural limitations framing
                                      the process.


                                      --
                                      Best, Mikey Brass
                                      MA in Archaeology degree, University College London
                                      "The Antiquity of Man" http://www.antiquityofman.com
                                      Book: "The Antiquity of Man: Artifactual, fossil and gene records explored"

                                      - !ke e: /xarra //ke
                                      ("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
                                    • Mikey Brass
                                      ... For the same reason I would be hesistant to apply ethnography from, for example, a corner of southern Africa to Polynesia without taking into account
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Sep 9, 2007
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                                        Martín Segovia wrote:

                                        > Why not?

                                        For the same reason I would be hesistant to apply ethnography from, for
                                        example, a corner of southern Africa to Polynesia without taking into
                                        account ethnography from the region in question.

                                        Getting *ideas* from reading a a broad range of ethnography is not
                                        something I disagree with, of course. However, successfully *applying*
                                        ethnographic concepts is a different animal.

                                        There have been too many inaccurate instances of applying non-African
                                        ethnography to African contexts for me to anything but cautious.

                                        Kevin MacDonald and Andrew Reid have a book coming out next year on
                                        early African statehood which explores these themes indepth.

                                        --
                                        Best, Mikey Brass
                                        MA in Archaeology degree, University College London
                                        "The Antiquity of Man" http://www.antiquityofman.com
                                        Book: "The Antiquity of Man: Artifactual, fossil and gene records explored"

                                        - !ke e: /xarra //ke
                                        ("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
                                      • B. Andelkovic
                                        Dear Mr. Segovia, Thank you for your comments. ... It is my believe that Egyptology and Egyptian archaeology dealing with the pre- and proto-history of Egypt
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Sep 10, 2007
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                                          Dear Mr. Segovia,

                                          Thank you for your comments.

                                          >It´s quite clear that individuals and their power struggles
                                          >are not new in egyptology, but the concept of "aggrandisers"


                                          It is my believe that "Egyptology" and Egyptian archaeology dealing with the
                                          pre- and proto-history of Egypt are hardly quite the same discipline
                                          (although the first two "Dinasties" are correctly identified as the very end
                                          of Naqada IIIC1-IIID).

                                          As far as one can conclude from Prof. Castillos own words: "aggrandizers,
                                          that is, individuals seeking to benefit from favourable circumstances to
                                          create a power base for themselves and emerge like god-like rulers of a
                                          larger community than the one to which they originally belonged", it pretty
                                          much looks like the very same thing (i.e. power struggle of individuals),
                                          and accordingly, can hardly be perceived as "new".

                                          >the beginning of class stratification in predynastic
                                          >Egypt I have never read it discussed in any egyptology book or paper so far

                                          Here is an excerpt from my 2004 reference:

                                          "We have no doubts that conflict was, if not a prime mover (cf. Griswold
                                          1992b: 237), a prime method then of the state formation. Therefore, we agree
                                          with Campagno (2002b: 21) that "in the beginning [and ever since] was war",
                                          but we are prone to disagree over the reason, namely exotic prestige goods,
                                          he suggested for the conflict. Exotic goods were, in our view, merely an
                                          item in a long list of gains that went to the ultimate winner of the "grand
                                          prize", because what the Egyptian elite were really fighting for was
                                          absolute power. Needless to say, the final winner was the Divine King. A
                                          number of authors (e.g. Patch 1991: 359-360; Geller 1992: 156-157; cf.
                                          Griswold 1992b: 239; Siegemund 1999: 243-252) reject
                                          competition/conflict/warfare as a motivating factor because they likewise
                                          consider only a few isolated items of the winner's list. Indeed, the
                                          conflict was hardly caused by shortage of land, approaching of the carrying
                                          capacity, or scarce resources. The natural resources and energetic potential
                                          were more than abundant in the Nile Valley. Nonetheless, the most manifest
                                          aspect of the power competition was truly a fight over land, or better said,
                                          fight over territory (and more territory) caused, as Needler stressed (1984:
                                          31) by "the inherent tendency of absolute power to expand beyond its
                                          borders". In essence, Bard and Carneiro (1989; cf. Bard 1992: 16) were
                                          right with their circumscription model, except in omitting to reveal the
                                          main and the most important reason for the competition - the true prime
                                          mover - the will to power."

                                          The other two of my references (I have mentioned in my previous mail) are
                                          still in press, so no wonder that you have never read them. The similar is
                                          valid for my PhD "The Evolution of Gerzean Culture: Internal and External
                                          Factors" (submitted December 2002, defended June 2003, University of
                                          Belgrade) that was, unfortunately, written in Serbian.

                                          However, let me mention but a few, I believe that similar views are held in
                                          the several papers of my friend and colleague Dr. Marcelo Campagno
                                          (including his PhD, "From Kin-chiefs to God-kings. Emergence and
                                          Consolidation of the State in Ancient Egypt: From Badarian to Early Dynastic
                                          Period, ca. 4500-2700 B.C.", defended December 2001, University of Buenos
                                          Aires), as well as in the works of Dr. Alejandro Jimenez-Serrano
                                          (Universidad de Jean).

                                          I have to add that I know, respect and appreciate Prof. Castillos work very
                                          much. The point that you might have missed is rather related to Eliot
                                          Braun's comment (September 3, 2007) "It seems that once every few years
                                          someone discovers 'America' and the PAPERS PICK IT UP." [emphasis added]

                                          With best regards,

                                          Branislav Andelkovic
                                          Editor, Journal of the Serbian Archaeological Society

                                          ____________________________________________
                                          Dr. Branislav Andelkovic
                                          Asst. Professor of Near Eastern Archaeology
                                          Faculty of Philosophy, Department of Archaeology
                                          Cika Ljubina 18-20, 11000 Belgrade, Serbia
                                          E-mail: B.Andelkovic@...
                                          Tel.+381 11 3206 235; Fax.+381 11 2639 356
                                          ____________________________________________
                                          The Belgrade Mummy: http://www.f.bg.ac.yu/bemum/
                                        • Martín Segovia
                                          ... individuals), ... Dear Dr. Andelkovic, Thank you for your detailed reply. From what you write I confirm the views I got from other readings, that all those
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Sep 10, 2007
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                                            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "B. Andelkovic" <B.Andelkovic@...>
                                            wrote:
                                            >



                                            >it pretty
                                            >much looks like the very same thing (i.e. power struggle of
                                            individuals),
                                            >and accordingly, can hardly be perceived as "new".



                                            Dear Dr. Andelkovic,

                                            Thank you for your detailed reply.

                                            From what you write I confirm the views I
                                            got from other readings, that all those
                                            approaches you mention analyze the conflicts
                                            to expand power among chieftains, but I
                                            don´t see there the very beginning, how
                                            those people ++started++ changing things
                                            in their own communities to get the process
                                            going, how and why and what allowed the
                                            rise of these fellows over their kin
                                            rupturing all traditions and old social
                                            bonds, how they managed to do so and how
                                            that can be appreciated in the archaeological
                                            record in prehistoric Egypt, that is what
                                            I see of new in this approach and not
                                            repeating all over the discovery of
                                            America.

                                            And I understand that Bard later dissociated
                                            herself from earlier views she shared with
                                            Carneiro because the circumscription model
                                            didn´t seem to apply to Egypt then with plenty
                                            of fertile land for everybody.

                                            Respectfully yours,

                                            Martin Segovia
                                          • richfaussette
                                            ... static? Yes, resource competition increases selection pressure among neighboring groups. Adaptive traits survive the increase in selection pressure. They
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Sep 10, 2007
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                                              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Mikey Brass <michael.brass@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Jon Smyth wrote:
                                              > > Is it not perceived that in order for a social group to evolve
                                              > > interaction is required between different social groups?
                                              > > That a group which remains isolated is more likely to remain
                                              static?


                                              Yes, resource competition increases selection pressure among
                                              neighboring groups. Adaptive traits survive the increase in selection
                                              pressure. They are "selected." That's evolution.

                                              An isolated group would remain relatively "static" in technology that
                                              promoted their survival in resource competition with other groups
                                              after many generations of that technology not being "selected" simply
                                              because there were no other groups around to bring the requisite
                                              selection stresses to bear.


                                              Paul Colinvaux, the ecologist, in Fates of Nations: A Biological
                                              Theory of History posits this mechanism for technological advances.

                                              rich faussette
                                            • Martín Segovia
                                              ... Well, you don´t know if what you find in one region of the world can be applied to another until you try and see how well it explains the problem at
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Sep 11, 2007
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                                                --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Mikey Brass <michael.brass@...> wrote:
                                                >

                                                >Getting *ideas* from reading a a broad range of ethnography is not
                                                >something I disagree with, of course. However, successfully
                                                >*applying*
                                                >ethnographic concepts is a different animal.



                                                Well, you don´t know if what you find in one
                                                region of the world can be "applied" to another
                                                until you try and see how well it explains the
                                                problem at hand there or not, but a priori
                                                rejecting that it can be applied or expressing
                                                a distrust to such approaches is closing one´s
                                                mind to possibilities that can be good answers
                                                to problems such as the birth and growth of
                                                complexity in a given place and time.

                                                That some of them have been found wanting
                                                or incorrect is part of the natural order of
                                                things in science, in many cases you don´t
                                                know until you try it.

                                                Martin Segovia
                                              • Martín Segovia
                                                Dear Dr. Andelkovic, ... Griswold ... the grand ... was ... External ... Thank you for the information. All this is fine for the disputes among chiefs
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Sep 11, 2007
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                                                  Dear Dr. Andelkovic,

                                                  --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "B. Andelkovic" <B.Andelkovic@...>
                                                  wrote:
                                                  >

                                                  >"We have no doubts that conflict was, if not a prime mover (cf.
                                                  Griswold
                                                  >1992b: 237), a prime method then of the ++state formation++.
                                                  ==============
                                                  >Exotic goods were, in our view, merely an
                                                  >item in a long list of gains that went to the ++ultimate winner of
                                                  the "grand
                                                  >prize",++ because what the Egyptian elite were really fighting for
                                                  was
                                                  >absolute power.
                                                  ==============
                                                  >The similar is
                                                  >valid for my PhD "The Evolution of ++Gerzean Culture++: Internal and
                                                  External
                                                  >Factors"



                                                  Thank you for the information.

                                                  All this is fine for the disputes among
                                                  chiefs competing "for the grand prize",
                                                  as you remark, but as I said, others try
                                                  to go deeper into the very beginning of
                                                  it all and that seems to me to be rather
                                                  new.


                                                  >However, let me mention but a few, I believe that similar views are
                                                  held in
                                                  >the several papers of my friend and colleague Dr. Marcelo Campagno


                                                  I´ve read some of the papers and books
                                                  by this scholar but I haven´t found there
                                                  answers to this specific problem, except
                                                  for general comments of what may have
                                                  happened but nothing of how, who and why
                                                  and possible archaeological indicators
                                                  of the first steps.

                                                  So it seems we are talking of different
                                                  things and there seems to be little purpose
                                                  in going round in circles mentioning things
                                                  that are not really the same, even if they
                                                  are part of the same overall process.

                                                  All the best,

                                                  Martin Segovia
                                                • richfaussette
                                                  ... I don´t see there the very beginning, how those people ++started++ changing things in their own communities to get the process going, how and why and what
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Sep 11, 2007
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                                                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Martín Segovia <martsego@...> wrote:
                                                    I don´t see there the very beginning, how
                                                    those people ++started++ changing things
                                                    in their own communities to get the process
                                                    going, how and why and what allowed the
                                                    rise of these fellows over their kin
                                                    rupturing all traditions and old social
                                                    bonds, how they managed to do so and how
                                                    that can be appreciated in the archaeological
                                                    record in prehistoric Egypt, that is what
                                                    I see of new in this approach and not
                                                    repeating all over the discovery of
                                                    America.

                                                    martin,
                                                    The hymn to man in the rg veda precisely records the substantive
                                                    changes in hierarchalization and specialization that must be made to
                                                    move from a pastoral/tribal existence to nation state.

                                                    When they dismembered Man,
                                                    Into how many parts did they separate him?
                                                    What was his mouth, what his arms,
                                                    What did they call his thighs and feet?
                                                    The Brahmin was his mouth;
                                                    The Rajanya (Princes) became his arms;
                                                    His thighs produced the Vaisya (professionals and merchants);
                                                    His feet gave birth to the Sudra (laborer).


                                                    Man is dismembered when he moves from tribal to landed society. The
                                                    dismemberment is specialization into priest/warrior classes, a
                                                    transition that is theologically resisted in Genesis when Joseph
                                                    arranges for his family to remain shepherds in Egypt and symbolized
                                                    when Cain (the farmer) kills Abel (the shepherd).
                                                    The overriding theology of the hebrew bible and the christian gospels
                                                    says that a man of God has the "law written on his heart."
                                                    It logically follows that a man with the law written on his heart has
                                                    no need of a written law maintained by a priestly caste. He is
                                                    not "of the nations." His social structure is tribal. he is of the
                                                    order of melchizedek: priest AND warrior.

                                                    The Persian diaspora is described by Bryant as the imposition of a
                                                    socioethnic elite over landed states. In the story of Joseph in Egypt
                                                    we have Joseph's family, a socioethnic elite serving as intermediary
                                                    functionaries (controllers and the pharoah' s herdsmen), between the
                                                    pharoah and the formerly free farmers of Egypt.

                                                    It is also necessary for tribesmen, wishing to dominate landed
                                                    states, to serve in a landed state, learn the structure and then
                                                    return to their people and teach them how to master it and fulfill
                                                    specialized functions as Moses did.

                                                    rich faussette
                                                  • Mikey Brass
                                                    ... There is a wealth of literature on the inherent dangers of uncritically applying ethnography. There have been too many inaccurate instances of applying
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Sep 11, 2007
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                                                      Martín Segovia wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Mikey Brass <michael.brass@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      >> Getting *ideas* from reading a a broad range of ethnography is not
                                                      >> something I disagree with, of course. However, successfully
                                                      >> *applying*
                                                      >> ethnographic concepts is a different animal.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Well, you don´t know if what you find in one
                                                      > region of the world can be "applied" to another
                                                      > until you try and see how well it explains the
                                                      > problem at hand there or not, but a priori
                                                      > rejecting that it can be applied or expressing
                                                      > a distrust to such approaches is closing one´s
                                                      > mind to possibilities that can be good answers
                                                      > to problems such as the birth and growth of
                                                      > complexity in a given place and time.

                                                      There is a wealth of literature on the inherent dangers of uncritically
                                                      applying ethnography. There have been too many inaccurate instances of
                                                      applying non-African ethnography to African contexts for me to be
                                                      anything but cautious. I trust you noticed that what I stated in my
                                                      messages differs from your above summary of them.


                                                      --
                                                      Best, Mikey Brass
                                                      MA in Archaeology degree, University College London
                                                      "The Antiquity of Man" http://www.antiquityofman.com
                                                      Book: "The Antiquity of Man: Artifactual, fossil and gene records explored"

                                                      - !ke e: /xarra //ke
                                                      ("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
                                                    • Samuel Lerner
                                                      ... to ... Your approach seems quite different to others here, should we strive to understand these things through theology or legends? best regards, ....
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Sep 11, 2007
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                                                        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "richfaussette" <RFaussette@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > The hymn to man in the rg veda precisely records the substantive
                                                        > changes in hierarchalization and specialization that must be made
                                                        to
                                                        > move from a pastoral/tribal existence to nation state.
                                                        >
                                                        > When they dismembered Man,
                                                        > Into how many parts did they separate him?
                                                        > What was his mouth, what his arms,
                                                        > What did they call his thighs and feet?
                                                        > The Brahmin was his mouth;
                                                        > The Rajanya (Princes) became his arms;
                                                        > His thighs produced the Vaisya (professionals and merchants);
                                                        > His feet gave birth to the Sudra (laborer).
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Man is dismembered when he moves from tribal to landed society. The
                                                        > dismemberment is specialization into priest/warrior classes, a
                                                        > transition that is theologically resisted in Genesis when Joseph
                                                        > arranges for his family to remain shepherds in Egypt and symbolized
                                                        > when Cain (the farmer) kills Abel (the shepherd).
                                                        >



                                                        Your approach seems quite different to others here, should we strive
                                                        to understand these things through theology or legends?

                                                        best regards,

                                                        .... Samuel Lerner
                                                      • richfaussette
                                                        ... The ... symbolized ... Samuel, My approach is based on the evolution of social systems and the comparative psychology of religion. What I did in the
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Sep 12, 2007
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                                                          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Samuel Lerner" <samulern@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "richfaussette" <RFaussette@> wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          > > The hymn to man in the rg veda precisely records the substantive
                                                          > > changes in hierarchalization and specialization that must be made
                                                          > to
                                                          > > move from a pastoral/tribal existence to nation state.
                                                          > >
                                                          > > When they dismembered Man,
                                                          > > Into how many parts did they separate him?
                                                          > > What was his mouth, what his arms,
                                                          > > What did they call his thighs and feet?
                                                          > > The Brahmin was his mouth;
                                                          > > The Rajanya (Princes) became his arms;
                                                          > > His thighs produced the Vaisya (professionals and merchants);
                                                          > > His feet gave birth to the Sudra (laborer).
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Man is dismembered when he moves from tribal to landed society.
                                                          The
                                                          > > dismemberment is specialization into priest/warrior classes, a
                                                          > > transition that is theologically resisted in Genesis when Joseph
                                                          > > arranges for his family to remain shepherds in Egypt and
                                                          symbolized
                                                          > > when Cain (the farmer) kills Abel (the shepherd).
                                                          > >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Your approach seems quite different to others here, should we strive
                                                          > to understand these things through theology or legends?
                                                          >
                                                          > best regards,
                                                          >
                                                          > .... Samuel Lerner


                                                          Samuel,
                                                          My approach is based on the evolution of social systems and the
                                                          comparative psychology of religion. What I did in the previous post
                                                          was show how the theology conforms to the structure of the social
                                                          system under discussion.
                                                          I am not a scholar. I do not presume to know what the scholars on
                                                          this list know. I have simply looked at the evolution of religion
                                                          from a Darwinian perspective rather than fight the common fight,
                                                          religion versus science and the result after a quarter century of
                                                          effort has been productive for me.
                                                          Do you disagree with anything I've written? Please object and I will
                                                          clarify.


                                                          rich faussette
                                                        • Samuel Lerner
                                                          ... Thanks, this is all I wanted to know. Shana tova. .... Samuel Lerner
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Sep 12, 2007
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                                                            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "richfaussette" <RFaussette@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > I am not a scholar. I do not presume to know what the scholars on
                                                            > this list know. I have simply looked at the evolution of religion
                                                            > from a Darwinian perspective rather than fight the common fight,
                                                            > religion versus science and the result after a quarter century of
                                                            > effort has been productive for me.


                                                            Thanks, this is all I wanted to know.

                                                            Shana tova.

                                                            .... Samuel Lerner
                                                          • richfaussette
                                                            ... There is a bit more - perhaps others would be interested. The following lines appear in wikipedia (we ll use it as a resource for the purposes of
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Sep 17, 2007
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                                                              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Samuel Lerner" <samulern@...> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "richfaussette" <RFaussette@> wrote:
                                                              > >
                                                              > > I am not a scholar. I do not presume to know what the scholars on
                                                              > > this list know. I have simply looked at the evolution of religion
                                                              > > from a Darwinian perspective rather than fight the common fight,
                                                              > > religion versus science and the result after a quarter century of
                                                              > > effort has been productive for me.
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > Thanks, this is all I wanted to know.
                                                              >
                                                              > Shana tova.
                                                              >
                                                              > .... Samuel Lerner
                                                              >



                                                              There is a bit more - perhaps others would be interested. The
                                                              following lines appear in wikipedia (we'll use it as a resource for
                                                              the purposes of illustration).

                                                              "Nonetheless, "the precarious condition in which they lived for a
                                                              considerable period made it impracticable for them to keep up their
                                                              former proselytizing zeal. The instinctive fear of disintegration and
                                                              absorption in the vast multitudes among whom they lived created in
                                                              them a spirit of exclusiveness and a strong feeling for the
                                                              preservation of the racial characteristics and distinctive features
                                                              of their community. Living in an atmosphere surcharged with the Hindu
                                                              caste system, they felt that their own safety lay in encircling
                                                              their fold by rigid caste barriers" (Dhalla, 1938:474). Even so, at
                                                              some point (perhaps not long after their arrival in India), the
                                                              Zoroastrians - perhaps determining that the social stratification
                                                              that they had brought with them was unsustainable in the small
                                                              community - did away with all but the hereditary priesthood (called
                                                              the asronih in Sassanid Iran). The remaining estates - the
                                                              (r)atheshtarih (nobility, soldiers, and civil servants), vastaryoshih
                                                              (farmers and herdsmen), hutokshih (artisans and laborers) - were
                                                              folded into an all-comprehensive class today known as the behdini
                                                              ("followers of daena", for which "good religion" is one translation).
                                                              This change would have far reaching consequences. For one, it opened
                                                              the gene pool to some extent since until that time inter-class
                                                              marriages were exceedingly rare (this would continue to be a
                                                              problem for the priesthood until the 20th century). For another, it
                                                              did away with the boundaries along occupational lines, a factor that
                                                              would enamour the Parsis to the 18th and 19th century British
                                                              colonial authorities who had little patience for the unpredictable
                                                              complications of the Hindu caste system (such as a clerk from one
                                                              caste who would not deal with a clerk from another)."



                                                              Now recall Pierre Bryant's description of the Persian diaspora as a
                                                              socioethnic elite (From Cyrus to Alexander) as you consider the
                                                              conscious decision by the Parsis above to shed priest/warrior
                                                              stratification to live in diaspora in India. Now further consider the
                                                              conquest of Canaan in the Hebrew bible as a nation building exercise
                                                              in which just the opposite occurs. Rather than being shed, the
                                                              stratification is created (priesthood and military organized by
                                                              Moses). So, the split into priest/warrior classes is described in the
                                                              bible, but where do we see the same priestly/pastoral diaspora social
                                                              structure described for the Parsis in the Hebrew bible?

                                                              We find it in Genesis.

                                                              My essay on this matter will be published this fall in the Occidental
                                                              Quarterly. It is titled THE BOOK OF GENESIS FROM A DARWINIAN
                                                              PERSPECTIVE.

                                                              The Hebrew bible contains a formula for nation building and another
                                                              formula (allegorized in the book of genesis) for living in diaspora.

                                                              rich faussette
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