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[ANE-2] Epyptian Mythology

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  • ANTONIO LOMBATTI
    Hi all: I m looking for reliable sources (apart from the Book of the Dead and the Papyrus Ani published by Sir. E.A. Wallis Budge) on the legends concerning
    Message 1 of 9 , Aug 16, 2007
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      Hi all:

      I'm looking for reliable sources (apart from the Book of the Dead and
      the Papyrus Ani published by Sir. E.A. Wallis Budge) on the legends
      concerning the life of the Egyptian Horus. In recent books, I have
      found the following information about presumed paralles between
      Horus's life and that of Jesus:

      Horus was born from a virgin, but he was the son of the god Osiris.
      His mother�s name was Meri, and his earthly father was called Seb (Jo-
      Seph). Horus was of royal descent. He was born in a cave. The
      annunciation of his birth was given by an angel and when he was born
      the star Sirius appeared in the sky. Ancient Egyptians paraded a
      manger and a child representing Horus through the street on December
      25. Some shepherds witnessed his birth. Then, Herut tried to have him
      murdered. Literary sources are silent about Horus life from 12 to 30
      years old. Hi consacration took place in the river Eridanus, by Anup.
      Anup was later beheaded.

      Horus was tempted while he was in the desert of Amenta: he was taken
      up a mountain by his arch-rival Sut. However, he resisted the
      temptation. We�re told that he walked on waters, cast out demons,
      healed sick people, and restored sight to the blind. He was put to
      death by crucifixion accompanied by two thieves. He descended to hell
      and resurrected after three days.

      Thanks for you kind help.
      Antonio Lombatti



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • gtosiris@mpx.com.au
      Hi Antonio, The key source for this sort of nonsense was the 19th-century poet, freethinker, spiritualist, and amateur Egyptologist Gerald Massey in his
      Message 2 of 9 , Aug 16, 2007
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        Hi Antonio,

        The key source for this sort of nonsense was the 19th-century poet, freethinker,
        spiritualist, and amateur Egyptologist Gerald Massey in his Ancient Egypt: The Light of
        the World (2 Volumes, 1907). All other sources that make these types of claims -
        whether they know it or not - basically borrow from Gerald Massey. What a lot of people
        don't realise is that his Ancient Egypt is a spiritualist interpretation of Egyptian history
        and mythology. A considerable number of early 20th-century freethinkers took up and
        uncritically promoted these sorts of ideas. The book is a mess. Another myth that still
        survives in popular freethought circles the supposed parallels between the so-called
        "Passion of Bel" and the New Testament Passion of Jesus. I have collected quite a lot of
        the material on both because I'm fascinated how it keeps on surviving and drawing
        attention at a popular level.

        Regards,
        Gary Thompson

        On 16 Aug 2007 at 10:47, ANTONIO LOMBATTI wrote:

        > Hi all:
        >
        > I'm looking for reliable sources (apart from the Book of the Dead and
        > the Papyrus Ani published by Sir. E.A. Wallis Budge) on the legends
        > concerning the life of the Egyptian Horus. In recent books, I have
        > found the following information about presumed paralles between
        > Horus's life and that of Jesus:
        >
        > Horus was born from a virgin, but he was the son of the god Osiris.
        > His mother’s name was Meri, and his earthly father was called Seb (Jo-
        > Seph). Horus was of royal descent. He was born in a cave. The
        > annunciation of his birth was given by an angel and when he was born
        > the star Sirius appeared in the sky. Ancient Egyptians paraded a
        > manger and a child representing Horus through the street on December
        > 25. Some shepherds witnessed his birth. Then, Herut tried to have him
        > murdered. Literary sources are silent about Horus life from 12 to 30
        > years old. Hi consacration took place in the river Eridanus, by Anup.
        > Anup was later beheaded.
        >
        > Horus was tempted while he was in the desert of Amenta: he was taken
        > up a mountain by his arch-rival Sut. However, he resisted the
        > temptation. We’re told that he walked on waters, cast out demons,
        > healed sick people, and restored sight to the blind. He was put to
        > death by crucifixion accompanied by two thieves. He descended to hell
        > and resurrected after three days.
        >
        > Thanks for you kind help.
        > Antonio Lombatti
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > No virus found in this incoming message.
        > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
        > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/955 - Release Date:
        > 15/08/2007 4:55 PM
        >
      • Antonio Lombatti
        Hi Gary: thanks for you reply. So, do you suggest that all these tales about the life of Horus come from the pseudo-scientific books by G. Massey. Aren t there
        Message 3 of 9 , Aug 16, 2007
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          Hi Gary:

          thanks for you reply.

          So, do you suggest that all these tales about the life of Horus come from the pseudo-scientific books by G. Massey. Aren't there any legends about Horus dealing with a virginal birth, parents named Meri and Jo-Seph, angel annunciation, shepherds at the cave, crucifixion and so on in Egyptian mythology?

          Antonio Lombatti

          ---------------------------
          http://www.antoniolombatti.it


          spiritualist, and amateur Egyptologist Gerald Massey in his Ancient Egypt: The Light of
          >the World (2 Volumes, 1907). All other sources that make these types of claims -
          >whether they know it or not - basically borrow from Gerald Massey. What a lot of people
          >don't realise is that his Ancient Egypt is a spiritualist interpretation of Egyptian history
          >and mythology. A considerable number of early 20th-century freethinkers took up and
          >uncritically promoted these sorts of ideas. The book is a mess. Another myth that still
          >survives in popular freethought circles the supposed parallels between the so-called
          >"Passion of Bel" and the New Testament Passion of Jesus. I have collected quite a lot of
          >the material on both because I'm fascinated how it keeps on surviving and drawing
          >attention at a popular level.
          >
          >Regards,
          >Gary Thompson
          >
          >On 16 Aug 2007 at 10:47, ANTONIO LOMBATTI wrote:
          >
          >> Hi all:
          >>
          >> I'm looking for reliable sources (apart from the Book of the Dead and
          >> the Papyrus Ani published by Sir. E.A. Wallis Budge) on the legends
          >> concerning the life of the Egyptian Horus. In recent books, I have
          >> found the following information about presumed paralles between
          >> Horus's life and that of Jesus:
          >>
          >> Horus was born from a virgin, but he was the son of the god Osiris.
          >> His mother’s name was Meri, and his earthly father was called Seb (Jo-
          >> Seph). Horus was of royal descent. He was born in a cave. The
          >> annunciation of his birth was given by an angel and when he was born
          >> the star Sirius appeared in the sky. Ancient Egyptians paraded a
          >> manger and a child representing Horus through the street on December
          >> 25. Some shepherds witnessed his birth. Then, Herut tried to have him
          >> murdered. Literary sources are silent about Horus life from 12 to 30
          >> years old. Hi consacration took place in the river Eridanus, by Anup.
          >> Anup was later beheaded.
          >>
          >> Horus was tempted while he was in the desert of Amenta: he was taken
          >> up a mountain by his arch-rival Sut. However, he resisted the
          >> temptation. We’re told that he walked on waters, cast out demons,
          >> healed sick people, and restored sight to the blind. He was put to
          >> death by crucifixion accompanied by two thieves. He descended to hell
          >> and resurrected after three days.
          >>
          >> Thanks for you kind help.
          >> Antonio Lombatti
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> --
          >> No virus found in this incoming message.
          >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
          >> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/955 - Release Date:
          >> 15/08/2007 4:55 PM
          >>
          >
          >
          >
        • neseret
          2c. Re: Epyptian Mythology Posted by: Antonio Lombatti antonio.lombatti@mac.com antonio_lombatti Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:23 pm ((PDT)) Hi Gary: thanks for
          Message 4 of 9 , Aug 17, 2007
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            2c. Re: Epyptian Mythology
            Posted by: "Antonio Lombatti" antonio.lombatti@...
            antonio_lombatti
            Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:23 pm ((PDT))

            Hi Gary:

            thanks for you reply.

            So, do you suggest that all these tales about the life of Horus come
            from the pseudo-scientific books by G. Massey. Aren't there any
            legends about Horus dealing with a virginal birth, parents named Meri
            and Jo-Seph, angel annunciation, shepherds at the cave, crucifixion
            and so on in Egyptian mythology?

            Antonio Lombatti
            --------
            Let's try it this way:

            a) Horus is not born from a "virginal birth." Full stop. Horus is
            conceived by Isis when she, in the form of a kestrel, "acts the part
            of a man" (according to mythological texts) and encourages
            fertilisation of her womb from the sperm of her (half-dead) husband
            Osiris.

            There are pictorial representations of this conception, such as this
            one from the Temple of Seti I at Abydos:

            <http://www.geocities.com/neseret/Images/Conception-Horus-1-2001.jpg>

            b) Obviously, the parents of Horus are, in this case, Osiris and
            Isis. As far as I know, I have _never_ heard of any myth in which
            Horus' parents are named "Meri" or Jo-seph." In the ancient Egyptian
            myth of Haroeris, or the "Elder Horus", his parents are Geb and Nut
            (earth and the sky), but again, no reference can be found for
            a "Meri" or Jo-seph" as names for the parents.

            c) No ancient Egyptian myth, to my knowledge, recalls _any deity's_
            birth by angel annunciation, shepherds at the cave, OR crucifixion.

            It's really that simple. You just have to realise that earlier
            authors on ancient Egypt were so eager to show a direct connection
            between Egyptian religion and Christianity that there was a "bending"
            (if not outright false revision) of Egyptian myths to make it
            more "palatable" to their Judaeo-Christian audience in the 19th and
            20th centuries CE.

            For your best references on Egyptian religion, and on Horus and Isis
            in the Osirian mythology, in particular, I suggest:

            Bonnet, H. 2001 (1952). _Reallexikon der Aegyptischen
            Religiongeschichte_. Berlin: Walter deGruyter.

            Griffiths, J. G. 1980. _The Origins of Osiris and His Cult._ Studies
            in the History of Religions (Supplements to Numen)40. Leiden: E. J.
            Brill.

            ________________. 1960. _The Conflict of Horus and Seth: From
            Egyptian and Classical Sources_. Liverpool Monographs in Archaeology
            and Oriental Studies. H. W. Fairman. Liverpool: Liverpool University
            Press.

            Heyob, S. K. 1975. _The Cult of Isis Among Women in the Graeco-Roman
            World_. Études Préliminaires aux Religions Orientales dans L'Empire
            Romain. M. J. Vermaseren. Leiden: Brill.

            Kees, H. 1941. _Der Götterglaube in Alten Aegypten_. Leipzig: J. C.
            Hinrichs Verlag.

            Lesko, B. S. 1999. _The Great Goddesses of Egypt_. Norman: University
            of Oklahoma Press.

            Redford, D. B., Ed. 2002. _The Ancient Gods Speak: A Guide to
            Egyptian Religion_. Oxford: Oxford University Press.

            Witt, R. E. 1997 (1971). _Isis in the Ancient World_. Baltimore: John
            Hopkins University Press.

            HTH.

            Regards --

            Katherine Griffis-Greenberg, MA (Lon)

            Doctoral Program (Egyptology)
            Oriental Institute
            University of Oxford
            Oxford, United Kingdom

            http://www.griffis-consulting.com
          • Antonio Lombatti
            Thanks Katherine for your entlightening answer: it s bright clear now. It s just another example of pseudo-science that has been circulating on the web and
            Message 5 of 9 , Aug 17, 2007
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              Thanks Katherine for your entlightening answer: it's bright clear now. It's just another example of pseudo-science that has been circulating on the web and also in R. Price's books (among others). I though he was a scrupolous scholar, but his "deconstruction" of the Jesus myth has taken him far away from reliable literary and historical sources.

              All the very best from Italy,
              Antonio Lombatti


              On Friday, August 17, 2007, at 10:17AM, "neseret" <weblist@...> wrote:
              >2c. Re: Epyptian Mythology
              > Posted by: "Antonio Lombatti" antonio.lombatti@...
              >antonio_lombatti
              > Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:23 pm ((PDT))
              >
              >Hi Gary:
              >
              >thanks for you reply.
              >
              >So, do you suggest that all these tales about the life of Horus come
              >from the pseudo-scientific books by G. Massey. Aren't there any
              >legends about Horus dealing with a virginal birth, parents named Meri
              >and Jo-Seph, angel annunciation, shepherds at the cave, crucifixion
              >and so on in Egyptian mythology?
              >
              >Antonio Lombatti
              >--------
              >Let's try it this way:
              >
              >a) Horus is not born from a "virginal birth." Full stop. Horus is
              >conceived by Isis when she, in the form of a kestrel, "acts the part
              >of a man" (according to mythological texts) and encourages
              >fertilisation of her womb from the sperm of her (half-dead) husband
              >Osiris.
              >
              >There are pictorial representations of this conception, such as this
              >one from the Temple of Seti I at Abydos:
              >
              ><http://www.geocities.com/neseret/Images/Conception-Horus-1-2001.jpg>
              >
              >b) Obviously, the parents of Horus are, in this case, Osiris and
              >Isis. As far as I know, I have _never_ heard of any myth in which
              >Horus' parents are named "Meri" or Jo-seph." In the ancient Egyptian
              >myth of Haroeris, or the "Elder Horus", his parents are Geb and Nut
              >(earth and the sky), but again, no reference can be found for
              >a "Meri" or Jo-seph" as names for the parents.
              >
              >c) No ancient Egyptian myth, to my knowledge, recalls _any deity's_
              >birth by angel annunciation, shepherds at the cave, OR crucifixion.
              >
              >It's really that simple. You just have to realise that earlier
              >authors on ancient Egypt were so eager to show a direct connection
              >between Egyptian religion and Christianity that there was a "bending"
              >(if not outright false revision) of Egyptian myths to make it
              >more "palatable" to their Judaeo-Christian audience in the 19th and
              >20th centuries CE.
              >
              >For your best references on Egyptian religion, and on Horus and Isis
              >in the Osirian mythology, in particular, I suggest:
              >
              >Bonnet, H. 2001 (1952). _Reallexikon der Aegyptischen
              >Religiongeschichte_. Berlin: Walter deGruyter.
              >
              >Griffiths, J. G. 1980. _The Origins of Osiris and His Cult._ Studies
              >in the History of Religions (Supplements to Numen)40. Leiden: E. J.
              >Brill.
              >
              >________________. 1960. _The Conflict of Horus and Seth: From
              >Egyptian and Classical Sources_. Liverpool Monographs in Archaeology
              >and Oriental Studies. H. W. Fairman. Liverpool: Liverpool University
              >Press.
              >
              >Heyob, S. K. 1975. _The Cult of Isis Among Women in the Graeco-Roman
              >World_. Études Préliminaires aux Religions Orientales dans L'Empire
              >Romain. M. J. Vermaseren. Leiden: Brill.
              >
              >Kees, H. 1941. _Der Götterglaube in Alten Aegypten_. Leipzig: J. C.
              >Hinrichs Verlag.
              >
              >Lesko, B. S. 1999. _The Great Goddesses of Egypt_. Norman: University
              >of Oklahoma Press.
              >
              >Redford, D. B., Ed. 2002. _The Ancient Gods Speak: A Guide to
              >Egyptian Religion_. Oxford: Oxford University Press.
              >
              >Witt, R. E. 1997 (1971). _Isis in the Ancient World_. Baltimore: John
              >Hopkins University Press.
              >
              >HTH.
              >
              >Regards --
              >
              >Katherine Griffis-Greenberg, MA (Lon)
              >
              >Doctoral Program (Egyptology)
              >Oriental Institute
              >University of Oxford
              >Oxford, United Kingdom
              >
              >http://www.griffis-consulting.com
              >
              >
            • gtosiris@mpx.com.au
              ... Hi Antonio, You indicate awareness that Gerald Massey wrote a number of books. You also seem to be alluding to freethought interpretations of particular
              Message 6 of 9 , Aug 19, 2007
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                On 16 Aug 2007 at 9:54, Antonio Lombatti wrote:

                > Hi Gary:
                >
                > thanks for you reply.
                >
                > So, do you suggest that all these tales about the life of Horus come
                > from the pseudo-scientific books by G. Massey. Aren't there any
                > legends about Horus dealing with a virginal birth, parents named Meri
                > and Jo-Seph, angel annunciation, shepherds at the cave, crucifixion
                > and so on in Egyptian mythology?
                >
                > Antonio Lombatti

                Hi Antonio,

                You indicate awareness that Gerald Massey wrote a number of books. You also seem to
                be alluding to freethought interpretations of particular panel scenes in the "southern
                sanctuary" at the second millennium BCE Temple of Amun at Luxor. The numerous
                descriptors of why Jesus = Horus are all fictions originating with the pan-Egyptian ideas
                of Gerald Massey (1828-1907). Modern scholarship on Egyptian religion and mythology
                offers no support for these claims. Massey can hardly be considered an informed
                scholar. He had no formal education and could not read Egyptian hieroglyphs. The
                American theosophist Alvin Kuhn (1880-1963), in one of his books, incorrectly claimed
                that Gerald Massey employed teams of people to decipher Egyptian material. Massey,
                however, always lived in near poverty and had trouble raising money for the publication
                of his books. (Due to his financial difficulties only 500 copies of Ancient Egypt: The Light
                of the World were published. Most of the money to finance publication came from a few
                close friends.)

                The absence of full references to original Egyptian sources is a trade-mark of this kind
                of literature. The attempts at proofs only consist of references to dated secondary
                sources. This is true for Gerald Massey and remains true for modern proponents of the
                so-called "Christ-Myth" theory. That modern proponents of the theory make no attempt
                to fully reference original Egyptian sources or competent modern secondary sources
                demonstrates why the topic remains full of inaccuracies and misunderstandings. Once
                again, Gerald Massey, an enthusiastic convert to spiritualism, believed that spiritualism
                originated in ancient Egypt and is reflected in their religion and mythology. At core his
                Ancient Egypt: The Light of the World is his spiritualist interpretation of the so-called
                Book of the Dead. All this was tied in with Massey's belief in an ancient Egyptian 12-
                constellation zodiac (identical with our own) circa 10,000 years BCE and an ancient
                Egyptian knowledge of precession that was incorporated into their religion and
                mythology. Modern scholarship has shown that our 12-constellation zodiac originated in
                the first millennium BCE in Mesopotamia and was adopted with a few changes by the
                ancient Greeks circa fourth-century BCE.

                One of the "scholarly" works that early proponents of "Jesus Myth in Egyptian
                Mythology" used was An Analysis of the Egyptian Mythology by James Pritchard (1819,
                expanded editions 1823 and 1838). James Pritchard (1786-1848) was a medical doctor
                and amateur ethnologist who believed that all religions had a common origin and
                underlying unity with their content. Apart from being nearly 200 years old it first
                appeared before the French scholar Jean-Françoise Champollion had completed his
                ground-breaking work on deciphering the phonetic values of the Egyptian hieroglyphs.

                Avoiding running over the same ground as Katherine Griffis-Greenberg I would
                recommend you refer to The Riddle of Resurrection: "Dying and Rising Gods" in the
                Ancient Near East by the biblical scholar Tryggve Mettinger (2001). The author
                discusses the Ugaritic Baal, Melqart-Hercules, Adon(is), Eshmun-Asclepius, Osiris, and
                Dumuzi-Tammuz. Also, The Saviour God: Comparative Studies in the Concept of
                Salvation edited by Samuel Brandon (1963). Samuel Brandon (1907-1971) was
                Professor of Comparative Religion at the University of Manchester. For a critical
                scholarly discussion of the Luxor Temple panel scenes, and accompanying inscriptions,
                in the "southern sanctuary" (the inscriptions are usually overlooked by "Jesus Myth in
                Egyptian Mythology" proponents) see: Die Geburt des Gottkönigs: Studien zur
                Überlieferung eines altägyptischen Mythos by the Egyptologist Hellmut Brunner (1964;
                2nd edition 1986).

                Regards,
                Gary Thompson


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Bradley Skene
                Prof. Thompson, Could you point out some recent publications on these panel scenes? And possibly some place on the web with relevant photographs or
                Message 7 of 9 , Aug 21, 2007
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                  Prof. Thompson,

                  Could you point out some recent publications on these panel scenes? And
                  possibly some place on the web with relevant photographs or illustrations?

                  Thanks,

                  Bradley A Skene


                  On 8/19/07, gtosiris@... <gtosiris@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > On 16 Aug 2007 at 9:54, Antonio Lombatti wrote:
                  >
                  > > ... You also seem to
                  > be alluding to freethought interpretations of particular panel scenes in
                  > the "southern
                  > sanctuary" at the second millennium BCE Temple of Amun at Luxor. ...
                • gtosiris@mpx.com.au
                  Hi Bradley, You are introducing confusion with your question. (1) To all appearances Antonio Lombatti is credited with a quote when in fact the statement was
                  Message 8 of 9 , Aug 23, 2007
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                    Hi Bradley,

                    You are introducing confusion with your question. (1) To all appearances Antonio
                    Lombatti is credited with a quote when in fact the statement was made by myself. (2)
                    Opening with Prof Thompson easily invites a mistaken response by one (or more
                    persons) as it is easy for a same name person on this list to overlook the identifying
                    email address in the header material of the quote. By way of mentioning I have certainly
                    never held the title of Professor. My best suggestion is for you to make the effort to
                    consult the reference I gave on the particular issue i.e., refer to a copy of the book Die
                    Geburt des Gottkönigs by the expert Egyptologist Hellmut Brunner that I mentioned in
                    my previous email. I have not casually given the reference. He discusses both the
                    particular panel scenes and the accompanying inscriptions. Katherine Griffis-Greenberg
                    may help you further. I have little idea of what is on the web regarding the matter. My
                    familiarity with Gerald Massey and his ideas date back to 1968.

                    Regards,
                    Gary Thompson

                    On 23 Aug 2007 at 7:54, Bradley Skene wrote:

                    > I don't know myself, beyond what was I quoted in my previous
                    > e-mail--evidently they are often purposefully misinterpreted as a
                    > presenting a myth of Horus closely parallel to the Gospel lives of
                    > Jesus.
                    >
                    > Cheers,
                    >
                    > Bradley Skene
                    >
                    >
                    > On 8/23/07, Thomas L. Thompson <tlt@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Dear Bradley Skene,
                    > > Which panel scenes are you referring to? I do not have the context
                    > > of your question and I have not read Antonio Lombatti's letter.
                    > > Thomas
                    > >
                    > > Thomas L. Thompson
                    > > University of Copenhagen
                    > >
                    > > ________________________________
                    > >
                    > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> på vegne af
                    > > Bradley Skene Sendt: on 22-08-2007 06:51 Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    > > <ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> Emne: Re: [ANE-2] Epyptian Mythology
                    > >
                    > > Prof. Thompson,
                    > >
                    > > Could you point out some recent publications on these panel scenes?
                    > > And possibly some place on the web with relevant photographs or
                    > > illustrations?
                    > >
                    > > Thanks,
                    > >
                    > > Bradley A Skene
                    > >
                    > > On 8/19/07, gtosiris@... <gtosiris%40mpx.com.au>
                    > > <mailto:gtosiris%<gtosiris%25> 40mpx.com.au> <gtosiris@...
                    > > <gtosiris%40mpx.com.au> <mailto: gtosiris%
                    > > <gtosiris%25>40mpx.com.au> > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > On 16 Aug 2007 at 9:54, Antonio Lombatti wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > > ... You also seem to
                    > > > be alluding to freethought interpretations of particular panel
                    > > > scenes in the "southern sanctuary" at the second millennium BCE
                    > > > Temple of Amun at Luxor. ...
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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