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Re: Mithras "quote"

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  • Dierk van den Berg
    Not really, Trudy. Zarathustra is Avestan, Zoroaster is Greek, Zartusht is Middle- Persian and, IIRC, Old Iranian Zarat-ushtra. Actually, for Joh 6.53-56 is
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 4, 2007
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      Not really, Trudy.
      Zarathustra is Avestan, Zoroaster is Greek, Zartusht is Middle-
      Persian and, IIRC, Old Iranian Zarat-ushtra.

      Actually, for Joh 6.53-56 is not rooted in the Gathas of the Avesta,
      the "Mithraic" saying in question is late esoteric rparaphrase - too
      late to take it seriously.

      tot ziens
      _Dierk van den Berg


      ------------ /// ------------



      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Trudy Kawami" <tkawami@...> wrote:
      >
      > Zarathustra is just a western version of the Persian name
      Zardusht/Zardosht, etc. It is not usually prefaced by "the," that is
      Zardusht is not a title. The Zardusht-nameh is the "Book of
      Zardusht," a text of uncertain (very late?) date that is NOT
      considered a reliable source of anything Zoroastrian. I am afraid
      that "this important Persian text" is neither Persian nor important.
      > Why not go straight to the Avesta & read the sort of sayings
      attributed to Zoroaster in the Middle Persian (& earlier)texts. The
      English translation is readily available on line.
      > Trudy Kawami
      >
      > ________________________________
      >
      > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Roger Pearse
      > Sent: Fri 8/3/2007 6:02 PM
      > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Mithtas "quote"
      >
      >
      >
      > Vermaseren gives this quotation (pp.103-4)
      >
      > "Justin records that on the occasion of the meal the participants
      used
      > certain formulae comparable with the ritual of the Eucharist, and in
      > this connection mention may be made of a medieval text, [p.104]
      > published by Cumont, in which of Christ is set beside the sayings of
      > Zarathushtra. The Zardusht speaks to his pupils in these words: 'He
      > who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will
      be
      > made one with me and I with him, the same shall not know
      > salvation....' Compare this with Christ's words to his
      disciples: 'He
      > who eats of my body and drinks of my blood shall have eternal
      life.'
      > In this important Persian text lies the source of the conflict
      > between the Christians and their opponents, and though of later
      date
      > it seems to confirm Justin's assertion."
      >
      > But he gives no reference. If "the Zardusht" is the Zardusht-nama,
      it
      > does not seem to contain any such passage. Where does Vermaseren get
      > this from? What 'Cumont'? It is not in "Textes et Monuments" v.2.
      >
      > Any suggestions would be very helpful.
      >
      > All the best,
      >
      > Roger Pearse
      >
      > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%
      40yahoogroups.com> , "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Dierk van den Berg wrote:
      > >
      > > > The source is:
      > > > Joh 6.53-56.
      > >
      > > So it would appear. But not, I am told, according to Joscelyn
      > Godwin
      > > who
      > > apparently claims (I don't have the book to check) in her _Mystery
      > > Religions in the Ancient World_ (p. 28) the reference is from
      > a "Persian
      > > Mithraic text," or to Vermaseren (a student of Cumont) who --
      again
      > I'm
      > > told -- notes that the source of this saying is a medieval text
      and
      > the
      > > source is Zarathustra, not Mithra. (M.J. Vermaseren, Mithras the
      > Secret
      > > God, p. 103)
      > >
      > > Jeffrey
      > > --
      > > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
      > > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
      > > Chicago, Illinois
      > > e-mail jgibson000@
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Roger Pearse
      ... Sorry, but does this mean that you know the source of this saying or paraphrase? If so, whereabouts in the sources is it to be found? Thanks, Roger Pearse
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 4, 2007
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        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Dierk van den Berg" <haGalil@...> wrote:
        > Actually, for Joh 6.53-56 is not rooted in the Gathas of
        > the Avesta, the "Mithraic" saying in question is late
        > esoteric rparaphrase - too late to take it seriously.

        Sorry, but does this mean that you know the source of this saying or
        paraphrase? If so, whereabouts in the sources is it to be found?

        Thanks,

        Roger Pearse
      • Dierk van den Berg
        We have Freke and Gandy quoting Godwin, who is quoting Vermaseren, who is quoting Cumont, who is quoting a lone manuscript that was written in the terror of
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 4, 2007
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          We have Freke and Gandy quoting Godwin, who is quoting Vermaseren, who
          is quoting Cumont, who is quoting a lone manuscript that was written in
          the terror of the year one thousand, so I'll bet you dollars to donut
          holes that we are high probably dealing with Adso of Montier-en-
          Der's 'Libellus de Antichristo' 954 CE.


          tot ziens
          Dierk van den Berg


          ---------- // ----------


          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Pearse" <roger_pearse@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Dierk van den Berg" <haGalil@> wrote:
          > > Actually, for Joh 6.53-56 is not rooted in the Gathas of
          > > the Avesta, the "Mithraic" saying in question is late
          > > esoteric rparaphrase - too late to take it seriously.
          >
          > Sorry, but does this mean that you know the source of this saying or
          > paraphrase? If so, whereabouts in the sources is it to be found?
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Roger Pearse
          >
        • Trudy Kawami
          Dierk, you are right. That s what I get for trying to post while doing something else. (Multi-tasking in August is damgerous to one s health - or at least
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 6, 2007
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            Dierk, you are right. That's what I get for trying to post while doing
            something else. (Multi-tasking in August is damgerous to one's health -
            or at least mind.)
            Trudy

            ________________________________

            From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            Dierk van den Berg
            Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 7:24 AM
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Mithras "quote"



            Not really, Trudy.
            Zarathustra is Avestan, Zoroaster is Greek, Zartusht is Middle-
            Persian and, IIRC, Old Iranian Zarat-ushtra.

            Actually, for Joh 6.53-56 is not rooted in the Gathas of the Avesta,
            the "Mithraic" saying in question is late esoteric rparaphrase - too
            late to take it seriously.

            tot ziens
            _Dierk van den Berg

            ------------ /// ------------

            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> , "Trudy
            Kawami" <tkawami@...> wrote:
            >
            > Zarathustra is just a western version of the Persian name
            Zardusht/Zardosht, etc. It is not usually prefaced by "the," that is
            Zardusht is not a title. The Zardusht-nameh is the "Book of
            Zardusht," a text of uncertain (very late?) date that is NOT
            considered a reliable source of anything Zoroastrian. I am afraid
            that "this important Persian text" is neither Persian nor important.
            > Why not go straight to the Avesta & read the sort of sayings
            attributed to Zoroaster in the Middle Persian (& earlier)texts. The
            English translation is readily available on line.
            > Trudy Kawami
            >
            > ________________________________
            >
            > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> on
            behalf of Roger Pearse
            > Sent: Fri 8/3/2007 6:02 PM
            > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
            > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Mithtas "quote"
            >
            >
            >
            > Vermaseren gives this quotation (pp.103-4)
            >
            > "Justin records that on the occasion of the meal the participants
            used
            > certain formulae comparable with the ritual of the Eucharist, and in
            > this connection mention may be made of a medieval text, [p.104]
            > published by Cumont, in which of Christ is set beside the sayings of
            > Zarathushtra. The Zardusht speaks to his pupils in these words: 'He
            > who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will
            be
            > made one with me and I with him, the same shall not know
            > salvation....' Compare this with Christ's words to his
            disciples: 'He
            > who eats of my body and drinks of my blood shall have eternal
            life.'
            > In this important Persian text lies the source of the conflict
            > between the Christians and their opponents, and though of later
            date
            > it seems to confirm Justin's assertion."
            >
            > But he gives no reference. If "the Zardusht" is the Zardusht-nama,
            it
            > does not seem to contain any such passage. Where does Vermaseren get
            > this from? What 'Cumont'? It is not in "Textes et Monuments" v.2.
            >
            > Any suggestions would be very helpful.
            >
            > All the best,
            >
            > Roger Pearse
            >
            > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
            <mailto:ANE-2%
            40yahoogroups.com> , "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Dierk van den Berg wrote:
            > >
            > > > The source is:
            > > > Joh 6.53-56.
            > >
            > > So it would appear. But not, I am told, according to Joscelyn
            > Godwin
            > > who
            > > apparently claims (I don't have the book to check) in her _Mystery
            > > Religions in the Ancient World_ (p. 28) the reference is from
            > a "Persian
            > > Mithraic text," or to Vermaseren (a student of Cumont) who --
            again
            > I'm
            > > told -- notes that the source of this saying is a medieval text
            and
            > the
            > > source is Zarathustra, not Mithra. (M.J. Vermaseren, Mithras the
            > Secret
            > > God, p. 103)
            > >
            > > Jeffrey
            > > --
            > > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
            > > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
            > > Chicago, Illinois
            > > e-mail jgibson000@
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Roger Pearse
            ... Most interesting! Where is the bit about the year 1000? Adso is a writer that I have not come across before -- is this a published work? For reference, I
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 23, 2007
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              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Dierk van den Berg" <haGalil@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > We have Freke and Gandy quoting Godwin, who is quoting
              > Vermaseren, who is quoting Cumont, who is quoting a lone
              > manuscript that was written in the terror of the year one
              > thousand, so I'll bet you dollars to donut
              > holes that we are high probably dealing with Adso of Montier-en-
              > Der's 'Libellus de Antichristo' 954 CE.

              Most interesting! Where is the bit about the year 1000? Adso is a
              writer that I have not come across before -- is this a published
              work?

              For reference, I have the Cumont paper, which refers to an unknown
              work in Garshuni in Mingana Ms. 142.

              Mingana catalogue page image:

              http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/mingana142.png

              Transcribing the Syriac:

              'Mention also is made of the god bnd'ritos, who was worshipped until
              the arrival of Christ.

              'On folio 59a it is said that Zoroaster (zrdšh plus a seyame -- why
              is this plural?) said to his disciple, "Anyone who does not eat my
              body and drink my blood and mix with me and I with him, will have no
              salvation."'

              Cumont article "Un bas relief Mithriaque du louvre" is here,
              temporarily, in PDF:

              http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/cumont_ra6_25_1946_zardusht
              .pdf

              For those willing to tolerate some errors, a scan of the text is
              here:

              http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/cumont_ra6_25_1946_zardusht
              .htm

              A rough English translation of the relevant bit:
              --start---
              St. Justin and Tertullian see in these mithraic meals a satanic
              imitation of the Christian communion [1]. The Greek apologist,
              recalling how the eucharist was instituted, ends by observing that
              the perverse demons imitated it in the mysteries of Mithras, and he
              refers to ritual formulas which were marked on the bread and the cup
              presented to the worshipper during his initiation; they must have
              offered some resemblance to the words pronounced by Jesus in the
              last supper [2].

              A strange passage in a late work may perhaps compensate for the
              reticence of Justin, who scrupled to reproduce the pagan formulae.
              An Arab manuscript in Syriac characters (Karshuni) of the Library of
              Birmingham [3] containing a homily or pastoral letter, the theme of
              which is to put side by side the false pretentions of the Jews and
              Magians and the true wisdom of Christianity. The motif which is
              repeated with monotonous rigour, is that the devil has accomplished
              a series of miracles among the unbelievers, but, to these false
              miracles, God has opposed true ones.

              Speaking about the Magi [193.1], the unknown author asserts that
              Zoroaster, having built pyres, exhorted his followers to throw
              themselves into the fire, and that they would seem to perish in the
              flames; and then coming out safe and well, they would appear to have
              come back from the dead, but this was only an illusion produced by
              magic spells. But Christ measured himself against Zoroaster, and by
              really bringing people back from the dead, made the propaganda of
              the Magi in the whole world pointless.

              Then the Christian writer adds: "This Zardasht again says to his
              disciples: whoever does not eat of my body and does not drink of my
              blood, so that he mixes with me and I mix with him, he will not have
              salvation... But Christ says to his disciples: Whoever eats my body
              and drinks my blood will have eternal life. [193.2]"

              The first part of this passage really goes back to a Mazdaean
              tradition, according to which similar wonders proved the divine
              mission of Zoroaster. In his childhood, he is thrown into a large
              bonfire at the instigation of the wizards, but the burning flames
              save him and his mother finds him alive [195.1]. Later, one reads
              elsewhere, the prophet being withdrawn on a mountain, a rain of fire
              set fire to him, but the Persians, who had come to pray in this
              place, see the prophet appear unharmed [195.2].

              When the author of the Arab homily claims to have consulted a book
              of the Magi, the title of which unfortunately could not be
              deciphered, he appears to be telling the truth. There is thus some
              probability that he also found in this book the words which he gives
              to Zoroaster addressing his disciples.

              So had this book transferred to the person of the founder of
              Mazdaeism that which the Mithraists applied to the Bull; that it was
              necessary, in a mystical meal, to consume its flesh and to drink its
              blood? Perhaps. But our medieval source is so confused that it would
              be labour lost, I believe, to try to clarify this.

              It is not doubtful that certain Magi moved their traditions closer
              to the doctrines of the Church and claimed for themselves the
              priority. A Mazdaean myth, stripped of its true sense, was called
              upon to prove that Jesus, whose miraculous star was to announce the
              birth to the astrologers of Persia, was an avatar of Zoroaster
              [195.3]: "He will arise, says he, from my family and my line; I am
              him, and he is me; I am in him, and he is in me " These words offer
              a singular analogy with those of the anonymous Arab "so that he
              mixes with me and I mix with him".

              F. Cumont.
              ---

              1. Tertullien. De praescr. haeret.. 40 : Mithra celebrat et panis
              oblationem et imaginent resurrectionis inducit. »

              2. Justin. Apol. I, 66 ...

              3. A. Mingana, Catalogue of the Mingana collection of manuscripts
              (Birmingham, Selley Oak colleges library) Cambridge, 1933. Ms.
              Mingana, n° 142, ff. 48 - 61. --- Our attention was drawn to this
              manuscript by Fr. Vosé, whose erudition as an orientalist has again
              allowed us to profit from his discoveries. Our friend Mr. Levi della
              Vida agreed to undertake to translate the Karshuni work which
              interested us, with his proven competence, and he proposed to study
              in it more detail and determine its sources and date. The war has
              unfortunately halted his research; let us hope, only temporarily.

              193.1. We reproduce here the translation of what this difficult to
              access and sometimes not very comprehensible work says about the
              Magi. f. 158 b: "As for the sect of the Magi, we will say again to
              you what did Zardasht in the time of L d. yû. n (or c. d. yû. n),
              the 82nd king after Adam. He started pyres, and accomplished
              prodigies which induced souls to obey him. Among his various
              miracles, he excited people to throw themselves into the pyres, and
              those who saw them believed that they burned, but all this was art
              of sorcery. After some time, as they always found them in the pyres,
              the people believed (f. 159 a) that they were resuscitated, as the
              book Z. b. h. r. and other books of the Magi attest. This Zardasht
              again says to his disciples: whoever does not eat of my body and
              does not drink of my blood, so that he mixes with me and I mix with
              him, he will not have salvation." When his works became famous, and
              his followers spread in the world, they boiled and drank beef.

              193.2. Jean, VI, 53; cf Matth., XXVI, 26. — On the introduction of a
              similar formula into Manicheism, cf Alberry, Das manichäische Bema-
              Fest (Zeitschr. F Neutest. Wissenschaft, 1938, XXXVII, p. 7).

              195.1. Dinkart, VII, 3, 8 s. (West, Pahlavi Texts, V, 36), Zad-
              Sparam, XVI, 7 (Ibid., p. 146). The same story in the Persian
              Zarâtust Nama (Rosenberg, Le livre de Zoroastre, 1904, c. 8, p. 12).

              195.2. Dion Chrysost... Or.. XXXVI, 39. cf. our Mages hellénisés. I,
              p. 29 ; II, p. 143. In the same way at the end of the world, the
              just will traverse a river of fire without feeling the burning
              (Boundahish, XXX. 18).

              195.3. Theodore bar Koni, in Mages hellénisés, vol. II, p. 128
              (translation of P. Peeters) ; cf. vol. I, p. 52 ff.
              ---



              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Dierk van den Berg" <haGalil@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > We have Freke and Gandy quoting Godwin, who is quoting
              > Vermaseren, who is quoting Cumont, who is quoting a lone
              > manuscript that was written in the terror of the year one
              > thousand, so I'll bet you dollars to donut
              > holes that we are high probably dealing with Adso of Montier-en-
              > Der's 'Libellus de Antichristo' 954 CE.
              >
              >
              > tot ziens
              > Dierk van den Berg
              >
              >
              > ---------- // ----------
              >
              >
              > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Pearse" <roger_pearse@> wrote:
              > >
              > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Dierk van den Berg" <haGalil@>
              wrote:
              > > > Actually, for Joh 6.53-56 is not rooted in the Gathas of
              > > > the Avesta, the "Mithraic" saying in question is late
              > > > esoteric rparaphrase - too late to take it seriously.
              > >
              > > Sorry, but does this mean that you know the source of this
              saying or
              > > paraphrase? If so, whereabouts in the sources is it to be
              found?
              > >
              > > Thanks,
              > >
              > > Roger Pearse
              > >
              >
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