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Mithras "quote"

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  • Trudy Kawami
    Zarathustra is just a western version of the Persian name Zardusht/Zardosht, etc. It is not usually prefaced by the, that is Zardusht is not a title. The
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 3, 2007
      Zarathustra is just a western version of the Persian name Zardusht/Zardosht, etc. It is not usually prefaced by "the," that is Zardusht is not a title. The Zardusht-nameh is the "Book of Zardusht," a text of uncertain (very late?) date that is NOT considered a reliable source of anything Zoroastrian. I am afraid that "this important Persian text" is neither Persian nor important.
      Why not go straight to the Avesta & read the sort of sayings attributed to Zoroaster in the Middle Persian (& earlier)texts. The English translation is readily available on line.
      Trudy Kawami

      ________________________________

      From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Roger Pearse
      Sent: Fri 8/3/2007 6:02 PM
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Mithtas "quote"



      Vermaseren gives this quotation (pp.103-4)

      "Justin records that on the occasion of the meal the participants used
      certain formulae comparable with the ritual of the Eucharist, and in
      this connection mention may be made of a medieval text, [p.104]
      published by Cumont, in which of Christ is set beside the sayings of
      Zarathushtra. The Zardusht speaks to his pupils in these words: 'He
      who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be
      made one with me and I with him, the same shall not know
      salvation....' Compare this with Christ's words to his disciples: 'He
      who eats of my body and drinks of my blood shall have eternal life.'
      In this important Persian text lies the source of the conflict
      between the Christians and their opponents, and though of later date
      it seems to confirm Justin's assertion."

      But he gives no reference. If "the Zardusht" is the Zardusht-nama, it
      does not seem to contain any such passage. Where does Vermaseren get
      this from? What 'Cumont'? It is not in "Textes et Monuments" v.2.

      Any suggestions would be very helpful.

      All the best,

      Roger Pearse

      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> , "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>
      wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > Dierk van den Berg wrote:
      >
      > > The source is:
      > > Joh 6.53-56.
      >
      > So it would appear. But not, I am told, according to Joscelyn
      Godwin
      > who
      > apparently claims (I don't have the book to check) in her _Mystery
      > Religions in the Ancient World_ (p. 28) the reference is from
      a "Persian
      > Mithraic text," or to Vermaseren (a student of Cumont) who -- again
      I'm
      > told -- notes that the source of this saying is a medieval text and
      the
      > source is Zarathustra, not Mithra. (M.J. Vermaseren, Mithras the
      Secret
      > God, p. 103)
      >
      > Jeffrey
      > --
      > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
      > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
      > Chicago, Illinois
      > e-mail jgibson000@...
      >






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Dierk van den Berg
      Not really, Trudy. Zarathustra is Avestan, Zoroaster is Greek, Zartusht is Middle- Persian and, IIRC, Old Iranian Zarat-ushtra. Actually, for Joh 6.53-56 is
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 4, 2007
        Not really, Trudy.
        Zarathustra is Avestan, Zoroaster is Greek, Zartusht is Middle-
        Persian and, IIRC, Old Iranian Zarat-ushtra.

        Actually, for Joh 6.53-56 is not rooted in the Gathas of the Avesta,
        the "Mithraic" saying in question is late esoteric rparaphrase - too
        late to take it seriously.

        tot ziens
        _Dierk van den Berg


        ------------ /// ------------



        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Trudy Kawami" <tkawami@...> wrote:
        >
        > Zarathustra is just a western version of the Persian name
        Zardusht/Zardosht, etc. It is not usually prefaced by "the," that is
        Zardusht is not a title. The Zardusht-nameh is the "Book of
        Zardusht," a text of uncertain (very late?) date that is NOT
        considered a reliable source of anything Zoroastrian. I am afraid
        that "this important Persian text" is neither Persian nor important.
        > Why not go straight to the Avesta & read the sort of sayings
        attributed to Zoroaster in the Middle Persian (& earlier)texts. The
        English translation is readily available on line.
        > Trudy Kawami
        >
        > ________________________________
        >
        > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Roger Pearse
        > Sent: Fri 8/3/2007 6:02 PM
        > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Mithtas "quote"
        >
        >
        >
        > Vermaseren gives this quotation (pp.103-4)
        >
        > "Justin records that on the occasion of the meal the participants
        used
        > certain formulae comparable with the ritual of the Eucharist, and in
        > this connection mention may be made of a medieval text, [p.104]
        > published by Cumont, in which of Christ is set beside the sayings of
        > Zarathushtra. The Zardusht speaks to his pupils in these words: 'He
        > who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will
        be
        > made one with me and I with him, the same shall not know
        > salvation....' Compare this with Christ's words to his
        disciples: 'He
        > who eats of my body and drinks of my blood shall have eternal
        life.'
        > In this important Persian text lies the source of the conflict
        > between the Christians and their opponents, and though of later
        date
        > it seems to confirm Justin's assertion."
        >
        > But he gives no reference. If "the Zardusht" is the Zardusht-nama,
        it
        > does not seem to contain any such passage. Where does Vermaseren get
        > this from? What 'Cumont'? It is not in "Textes et Monuments" v.2.
        >
        > Any suggestions would be very helpful.
        >
        > All the best,
        >
        > Roger Pearse
        >
        > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%
        40yahoogroups.com> , "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Dierk van den Berg wrote:
        > >
        > > > The source is:
        > > > Joh 6.53-56.
        > >
        > > So it would appear. But not, I am told, according to Joscelyn
        > Godwin
        > > who
        > > apparently claims (I don't have the book to check) in her _Mystery
        > > Religions in the Ancient World_ (p. 28) the reference is from
        > a "Persian
        > > Mithraic text," or to Vermaseren (a student of Cumont) who --
        again
        > I'm
        > > told -- notes that the source of this saying is a medieval text
        and
        > the
        > > source is Zarathustra, not Mithra. (M.J. Vermaseren, Mithras the
        > Secret
        > > God, p. 103)
        > >
        > > Jeffrey
        > > --
        > > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
        > > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
        > > Chicago, Illinois
        > > e-mail jgibson000@
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Roger Pearse
        ... Sorry, but does this mean that you know the source of this saying or paraphrase? If so, whereabouts in the sources is it to be found? Thanks, Roger Pearse
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 4, 2007
          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Dierk van den Berg" <haGalil@...> wrote:
          > Actually, for Joh 6.53-56 is not rooted in the Gathas of
          > the Avesta, the "Mithraic" saying in question is late
          > esoteric rparaphrase - too late to take it seriously.

          Sorry, but does this mean that you know the source of this saying or
          paraphrase? If so, whereabouts in the sources is it to be found?

          Thanks,

          Roger Pearse
        • Dierk van den Berg
          We have Freke and Gandy quoting Godwin, who is quoting Vermaseren, who is quoting Cumont, who is quoting a lone manuscript that was written in the terror of
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 4, 2007
            We have Freke and Gandy quoting Godwin, who is quoting Vermaseren, who
            is quoting Cumont, who is quoting a lone manuscript that was written in
            the terror of the year one thousand, so I'll bet you dollars to donut
            holes that we are high probably dealing with Adso of Montier-en-
            Der's 'Libellus de Antichristo' 954 CE.


            tot ziens
            Dierk van den Berg


            ---------- // ----------


            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Pearse" <roger_pearse@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Dierk van den Berg" <haGalil@> wrote:
            > > Actually, for Joh 6.53-56 is not rooted in the Gathas of
            > > the Avesta, the "Mithraic" saying in question is late
            > > esoteric rparaphrase - too late to take it seriously.
            >
            > Sorry, but does this mean that you know the source of this saying or
            > paraphrase? If so, whereabouts in the sources is it to be found?
            >
            > Thanks,
            >
            > Roger Pearse
            >
          • Trudy Kawami
            Dierk, you are right. That s what I get for trying to post while doing something else. (Multi-tasking in August is damgerous to one s health - or at least
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 6, 2007
              Dierk, you are right. That's what I get for trying to post while doing
              something else. (Multi-tasking in August is damgerous to one's health -
              or at least mind.)
              Trudy

              ________________________________

              From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              Dierk van den Berg
              Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 7:24 AM
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Mithras "quote"



              Not really, Trudy.
              Zarathustra is Avestan, Zoroaster is Greek, Zartusht is Middle-
              Persian and, IIRC, Old Iranian Zarat-ushtra.

              Actually, for Joh 6.53-56 is not rooted in the Gathas of the Avesta,
              the "Mithraic" saying in question is late esoteric rparaphrase - too
              late to take it seriously.

              tot ziens
              _Dierk van den Berg

              ------------ /// ------------

              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> , "Trudy
              Kawami" <tkawami@...> wrote:
              >
              > Zarathustra is just a western version of the Persian name
              Zardusht/Zardosht, etc. It is not usually prefaced by "the," that is
              Zardusht is not a title. The Zardusht-nameh is the "Book of
              Zardusht," a text of uncertain (very late?) date that is NOT
              considered a reliable source of anything Zoroastrian. I am afraid
              that "this important Persian text" is neither Persian nor important.
              > Why not go straight to the Avesta & read the sort of sayings
              attributed to Zoroaster in the Middle Persian (& earlier)texts. The
              English translation is readily available on line.
              > Trudy Kawami
              >
              > ________________________________
              >
              > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> on
              behalf of Roger Pearse
              > Sent: Fri 8/3/2007 6:02 PM
              > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
              > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Mithtas "quote"
              >
              >
              >
              > Vermaseren gives this quotation (pp.103-4)
              >
              > "Justin records that on the occasion of the meal the participants
              used
              > certain formulae comparable with the ritual of the Eucharist, and in
              > this connection mention may be made of a medieval text, [p.104]
              > published by Cumont, in which of Christ is set beside the sayings of
              > Zarathushtra. The Zardusht speaks to his pupils in these words: 'He
              > who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will
              be
              > made one with me and I with him, the same shall not know
              > salvation....' Compare this with Christ's words to his
              disciples: 'He
              > who eats of my body and drinks of my blood shall have eternal
              life.'
              > In this important Persian text lies the source of the conflict
              > between the Christians and their opponents, and though of later
              date
              > it seems to confirm Justin's assertion."
              >
              > But he gives no reference. If "the Zardusht" is the Zardusht-nama,
              it
              > does not seem to contain any such passage. Where does Vermaseren get
              > this from? What 'Cumont'? It is not in "Textes et Monuments" v.2.
              >
              > Any suggestions would be very helpful.
              >
              > All the best,
              >
              > Roger Pearse
              >
              > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
              <mailto:ANE-2%
              40yahoogroups.com> , "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Dierk van den Berg wrote:
              > >
              > > > The source is:
              > > > Joh 6.53-56.
              > >
              > > So it would appear. But not, I am told, according to Joscelyn
              > Godwin
              > > who
              > > apparently claims (I don't have the book to check) in her _Mystery
              > > Religions in the Ancient World_ (p. 28) the reference is from
              > a "Persian
              > > Mithraic text," or to Vermaseren (a student of Cumont) who --
              again
              > I'm
              > > told -- notes that the source of this saying is a medieval text
              and
              > the
              > > source is Zarathustra, not Mithra. (M.J. Vermaseren, Mithras the
              > Secret
              > > God, p. 103)
              > >
              > > Jeffrey
              > > --
              > > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
              > > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
              > > Chicago, Illinois
              > > e-mail jgibson000@
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Roger Pearse
              ... Most interesting! Where is the bit about the year 1000? Adso is a writer that I have not come across before -- is this a published work? For reference, I
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 23, 2007
                --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Dierk van den Berg" <haGalil@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > We have Freke and Gandy quoting Godwin, who is quoting
                > Vermaseren, who is quoting Cumont, who is quoting a lone
                > manuscript that was written in the terror of the year one
                > thousand, so I'll bet you dollars to donut
                > holes that we are high probably dealing with Adso of Montier-en-
                > Der's 'Libellus de Antichristo' 954 CE.

                Most interesting! Where is the bit about the year 1000? Adso is a
                writer that I have not come across before -- is this a published
                work?

                For reference, I have the Cumont paper, which refers to an unknown
                work in Garshuni in Mingana Ms. 142.

                Mingana catalogue page image:

                http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/mingana142.png

                Transcribing the Syriac:

                'Mention also is made of the god bnd'ritos, who was worshipped until
                the arrival of Christ.

                'On folio 59a it is said that Zoroaster (zrdšh plus a seyame -- why
                is this plural?) said to his disciple, "Anyone who does not eat my
                body and drink my blood and mix with me and I with him, will have no
                salvation."'

                Cumont article "Un bas relief Mithriaque du louvre" is here,
                temporarily, in PDF:

                http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/cumont_ra6_25_1946_zardusht
                .pdf

                For those willing to tolerate some errors, a scan of the text is
                here:

                http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/cumont_ra6_25_1946_zardusht
                .htm

                A rough English translation of the relevant bit:
                --start---
                St. Justin and Tertullian see in these mithraic meals a satanic
                imitation of the Christian communion [1]. The Greek apologist,
                recalling how the eucharist was instituted, ends by observing that
                the perverse demons imitated it in the mysteries of Mithras, and he
                refers to ritual formulas which were marked on the bread and the cup
                presented to the worshipper during his initiation; they must have
                offered some resemblance to the words pronounced by Jesus in the
                last supper [2].

                A strange passage in a late work may perhaps compensate for the
                reticence of Justin, who scrupled to reproduce the pagan formulae.
                An Arab manuscript in Syriac characters (Karshuni) of the Library of
                Birmingham [3] containing a homily or pastoral letter, the theme of
                which is to put side by side the false pretentions of the Jews and
                Magians and the true wisdom of Christianity. The motif which is
                repeated with monotonous rigour, is that the devil has accomplished
                a series of miracles among the unbelievers, but, to these false
                miracles, God has opposed true ones.

                Speaking about the Magi [193.1], the unknown author asserts that
                Zoroaster, having built pyres, exhorted his followers to throw
                themselves into the fire, and that they would seem to perish in the
                flames; and then coming out safe and well, they would appear to have
                come back from the dead, but this was only an illusion produced by
                magic spells. But Christ measured himself against Zoroaster, and by
                really bringing people back from the dead, made the propaganda of
                the Magi in the whole world pointless.

                Then the Christian writer adds: "This Zardasht again says to his
                disciples: whoever does not eat of my body and does not drink of my
                blood, so that he mixes with me and I mix with him, he will not have
                salvation... But Christ says to his disciples: Whoever eats my body
                and drinks my blood will have eternal life. [193.2]"

                The first part of this passage really goes back to a Mazdaean
                tradition, according to which similar wonders proved the divine
                mission of Zoroaster. In his childhood, he is thrown into a large
                bonfire at the instigation of the wizards, but the burning flames
                save him and his mother finds him alive [195.1]. Later, one reads
                elsewhere, the prophet being withdrawn on a mountain, a rain of fire
                set fire to him, but the Persians, who had come to pray in this
                place, see the prophet appear unharmed [195.2].

                When the author of the Arab homily claims to have consulted a book
                of the Magi, the title of which unfortunately could not be
                deciphered, he appears to be telling the truth. There is thus some
                probability that he also found in this book the words which he gives
                to Zoroaster addressing his disciples.

                So had this book transferred to the person of the founder of
                Mazdaeism that which the Mithraists applied to the Bull; that it was
                necessary, in a mystical meal, to consume its flesh and to drink its
                blood? Perhaps. But our medieval source is so confused that it would
                be labour lost, I believe, to try to clarify this.

                It is not doubtful that certain Magi moved their traditions closer
                to the doctrines of the Church and claimed for themselves the
                priority. A Mazdaean myth, stripped of its true sense, was called
                upon to prove that Jesus, whose miraculous star was to announce the
                birth to the astrologers of Persia, was an avatar of Zoroaster
                [195.3]: "He will arise, says he, from my family and my line; I am
                him, and he is me; I am in him, and he is in me " These words offer
                a singular analogy with those of the anonymous Arab "so that he
                mixes with me and I mix with him".

                F. Cumont.
                ---

                1. Tertullien. De praescr. haeret.. 40 : Mithra celebrat et panis
                oblationem et imaginent resurrectionis inducit. »

                2. Justin. Apol. I, 66 ...

                3. A. Mingana, Catalogue of the Mingana collection of manuscripts
                (Birmingham, Selley Oak colleges library) Cambridge, 1933. Ms.
                Mingana, n° 142, ff. 48 - 61. --- Our attention was drawn to this
                manuscript by Fr. Vosé, whose erudition as an orientalist has again
                allowed us to profit from his discoveries. Our friend Mr. Levi della
                Vida agreed to undertake to translate the Karshuni work which
                interested us, with his proven competence, and he proposed to study
                in it more detail and determine its sources and date. The war has
                unfortunately halted his research; let us hope, only temporarily.

                193.1. We reproduce here the translation of what this difficult to
                access and sometimes not very comprehensible work says about the
                Magi. f. 158 b: "As for the sect of the Magi, we will say again to
                you what did Zardasht in the time of L d. yû. n (or c. d. yû. n),
                the 82nd king after Adam. He started pyres, and accomplished
                prodigies which induced souls to obey him. Among his various
                miracles, he excited people to throw themselves into the pyres, and
                those who saw them believed that they burned, but all this was art
                of sorcery. After some time, as they always found them in the pyres,
                the people believed (f. 159 a) that they were resuscitated, as the
                book Z. b. h. r. and other books of the Magi attest. This Zardasht
                again says to his disciples: whoever does not eat of my body and
                does not drink of my blood, so that he mixes with me and I mix with
                him, he will not have salvation." When his works became famous, and
                his followers spread in the world, they boiled and drank beef.

                193.2. Jean, VI, 53; cf Matth., XXVI, 26. — On the introduction of a
                similar formula into Manicheism, cf Alberry, Das manichäische Bema-
                Fest (Zeitschr. F Neutest. Wissenschaft, 1938, XXXVII, p. 7).

                195.1. Dinkart, VII, 3, 8 s. (West, Pahlavi Texts, V, 36), Zad-
                Sparam, XVI, 7 (Ibid., p. 146). The same story in the Persian
                Zarâtust Nama (Rosenberg, Le livre de Zoroastre, 1904, c. 8, p. 12).

                195.2. Dion Chrysost... Or.. XXXVI, 39. cf. our Mages hellénisés. I,
                p. 29 ; II, p. 143. In the same way at the end of the world, the
                just will traverse a river of fire without feeling the burning
                (Boundahish, XXX. 18).

                195.3. Theodore bar Koni, in Mages hellénisés, vol. II, p. 128
                (translation of P. Peeters) ; cf. vol. I, p. 52 ff.
                ---



                --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Dierk van den Berg" <haGalil@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > We have Freke and Gandy quoting Godwin, who is quoting
                > Vermaseren, who is quoting Cumont, who is quoting a lone
                > manuscript that was written in the terror of the year one
                > thousand, so I'll bet you dollars to donut
                > holes that we are high probably dealing with Adso of Montier-en-
                > Der's 'Libellus de Antichristo' 954 CE.
                >
                >
                > tot ziens
                > Dierk van den Berg
                >
                >
                > ---------- // ----------
                >
                >
                > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Pearse" <roger_pearse@> wrote:
                > >
                > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Dierk van den Berg" <haGalil@>
                wrote:
                > > > Actually, for Joh 6.53-56 is not rooted in the Gathas of
                > > > the Avesta, the "Mithraic" saying in question is late
                > > > esoteric rparaphrase - too late to take it seriously.
                > >
                > > Sorry, but does this mean that you know the source of this
                saying or
                > > paraphrase? If so, whereabouts in the sources is it to be
                found?
                > >
                > > Thanks,
                > >
                > > Roger Pearse
                > >
                >
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