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Re: Mithtas "quote"

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  • Dierk van den Berg
    The source is: Joh 6.53-56. tot ziens, Dierk van den Berg ... forum by ... give
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 3, 2007
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      The source is:
      Joh 6.53-56.


      tot ziens,
      Dierk van den Berg



      ------------------- /// --------------------




      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Can anyone answer the question below that was posed on another
      forum by
      > my friend Roger Pearse?
      >
      >
      > Yours,
      >
      > Jeffrey
      >
      > *********
      > A common supposed quotation came my way in usenet, and I have been
      > spurred to try to track it down. I haven't succeeded -- can anyone
      give
      > a real source?
      >
      >
      > This quote is attributed to Mithras:
      >
      >
      > "He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that
      > he will be made one with me and I with him, the same shall not
      > know salvation."
      >
      > The source may be the "Zardusht-nama" (Book of Zoroaster), a 13th
      > century text.
      >
      > [snip]
      >
      > Roger Pearse
      >
      > ********
      > --
      > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
      > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
      > Chicago, Illinois
      > e-mail jgibson000@...
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
      ... So it would appear. But not, I am told, according to Joscelyn Godwin who apparently claims (I don t have the book to check) in her _Mystery Religions in
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 3, 2007
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        Dierk van den Berg wrote:

        > The source is:
        > Joh 6.53-56.

        So it would appear. But not, I am told, according to Joscelyn Godwin
        who
        apparently claims (I don't have the book to check) in her _Mystery
        Religions in the Ancient World_ (p. 28) the reference is from a "Persian
        Mithraic text," or to Vermaseren (a student of Cumont) who -- again I'm
        told -- notes that the source of this saying is a medieval text and the
        source is Zarathustra, not Mithra. (M.J. Vermaseren, Mithras the Secret
        God, p. 103)

        Jeffrey
        --
        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
        1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
        Chicago, Illinois
        e-mail jgibson000@...
      • Roger Pearse
        Vermaseren gives this quotation (pp.103-4) Justin records that on the occasion of the meal the participants used certain formulae comparable with the ritual
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 3, 2007
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          Vermaseren gives this quotation (pp.103-4)

          "Justin records that on the occasion of the meal the participants used
          certain formulae comparable with the ritual of the Eucharist, and in
          this connection mention may be made of a medieval text, [p.104]
          published by Cumont, in which of Christ is set beside the sayings of
          Zarathushtra. The Zardusht speaks to his pupils in these words: 'He
          who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be
          made one with me and I with him, the same shall not know
          salvation....' Compare this with Christ's words to his disciples: 'He
          who eats of my body and drinks of my blood shall have eternal life.'
          In this important Persian text lies the source of the conflict
          between the Christians and their opponents, and though of later date
          it seems to confirm Justin's assertion."

          But he gives no reference. If "the Zardusht" is the Zardusht-nama, it
          does not seem to contain any such passage. Where does Vermaseren get
          this from? What 'Cumont'? It is not in "Textes et Monuments" v.2.

          Any suggestions would be very helpful.

          All the best,

          Roger Pearse

          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>
          wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > Dierk van den Berg wrote:
          >
          > > The source is:
          > > Joh 6.53-56.
          >
          > So it would appear. But not, I am told, according to Joscelyn
          Godwin
          > who
          > apparently claims (I don't have the book to check) in her _Mystery
          > Religions in the Ancient World_ (p. 28) the reference is from
          a "Persian
          > Mithraic text," or to Vermaseren (a student of Cumont) who -- again
          I'm
          > told -- notes that the source of this saying is a medieval text and
          the
          > source is Zarathustra, not Mithra. (M.J. Vermaseren, Mithras the
          Secret
          > God, p. 103)
          >
          > Jeffrey
          > --
          > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
          > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
          > Chicago, Illinois
          > e-mail jgibson000@...
          >
        • Dierk van den Berg
          It is not mentioned in the Zarathustrian Gathas, IIRC. tot ziens, Dierk van den Berg ... Godwin ... a Persian ... I m ... the ... Secret
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 3, 2007
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            It is not mentioned in the Zarathustrian Gathas, IIRC.

            tot ziens,
            Dierk van den Berg


            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>
            wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > Dierk van den Berg wrote:
            >
            > > The source is:
            > > Joh 6.53-56.
            >
            > So it would appear. But not, I am told, according to Joscelyn
            Godwin
            > who
            > apparently claims (I don't have the book to check) in her _Mystery
            > Religions in the Ancient World_ (p. 28) the reference is from
            a "Persian
            > Mithraic text," or to Vermaseren (a student of Cumont) who -- again
            I'm
            > told -- notes that the source of this saying is a medieval text and
            the
            > source is Zarathustra, not Mithra. (M.J. Vermaseren, Mithras the
            Secret
            > God, p. 103)
            >
            > Jeffrey
            > --
            > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
            > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
            > Chicago, Illinois
            > e-mail jgibson000@...
            >
          • Peter T. Daniels
            Joscelyn Godwin is an Englishman; he was finishing his graduate studies in musicology at Cornell during my first undergraduate year (1968-69). Among his
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 3, 2007
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              Joscelyn Godwin is an Englishman; he was finishing his graduate studies in musicology at Cornell during my first undergraduate year (1968-69). Among his fascinating publications are a study of Athanasius Kircher, well known for his studies of Egyptian hieroglyphs, and the translation of Hypnerotomachia Poliphili, that most enigmatic of incunabula.

              If it's esoteric, he's your man.
              --
              Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...



              ----- Original Message ----
              From: Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...>
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, August 3, 2007 5:26:43 PM
              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: Mithtas "quote"



              Dierk van den Berg wrote:

              > The source is:
              > Joh 6.53-56.

              So it would appear. But not, I am told, according to Joscelyn Godwin
              who
              apparently claims (I don't have the book to check) in her _Mystery
              Religions in the Ancient World_ (p. 28) the reference is from a "Persian
              Mithraic text," or to Vermaseren (a student of Cumont) who -- again I'm
              told -- notes that the source of this saying is a medieval text and the
              source is Zarathustra, not Mithra. (M.J. Vermaseren, Mithras the Secret
              God, p. 103)

              Jeffrey
              --
              Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
              1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
              Chicago, Illinois
              e-mail jgibson000@comcast. net



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Trudy Kawami
              Zarathustra is just a western version of the Persian name Zardusht/Zardosht, etc. It is not usually prefaced by the, that is Zardusht is not a title. The
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 3, 2007
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                Zarathustra is just a western version of the Persian name Zardusht/Zardosht, etc. It is not usually prefaced by "the," that is Zardusht is not a title. The Zardusht-nameh is the "Book of Zardusht," a text of uncertain (very late?) date that is NOT considered a reliable source of anything Zoroastrian. I am afraid that "this important Persian text" is neither Persian nor important.
                Why not go straight to the Avesta & read the sort of sayings attributed to Zoroaster in the Middle Persian (& earlier)texts. The English translation is readily available on line.
                Trudy Kawami

                ________________________________

                From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Roger Pearse
                Sent: Fri 8/3/2007 6:02 PM
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Mithtas "quote"



                Vermaseren gives this quotation (pp.103-4)

                "Justin records that on the occasion of the meal the participants used
                certain formulae comparable with the ritual of the Eucharist, and in
                this connection mention may be made of a medieval text, [p.104]
                published by Cumont, in which of Christ is set beside the sayings of
                Zarathushtra. The Zardusht speaks to his pupils in these words: 'He
                who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be
                made one with me and I with him, the same shall not know
                salvation....' Compare this with Christ's words to his disciples: 'He
                who eats of my body and drinks of my blood shall have eternal life.'
                In this important Persian text lies the source of the conflict
                between the Christians and their opponents, and though of later date
                it seems to confirm Justin's assertion."

                But he gives no reference. If "the Zardusht" is the Zardusht-nama, it
                does not seem to contain any such passage. Where does Vermaseren get
                this from? What 'Cumont'? It is not in "Textes et Monuments" v.2.

                Any suggestions would be very helpful.

                All the best,

                Roger Pearse

                --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> , "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>
                wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > Dierk van den Berg wrote:
                >
                > > The source is:
                > > Joh 6.53-56.
                >
                > So it would appear. But not, I am told, according to Joscelyn
                Godwin
                > who
                > apparently claims (I don't have the book to check) in her _Mystery
                > Religions in the Ancient World_ (p. 28) the reference is from
                a "Persian
                > Mithraic text," or to Vermaseren (a student of Cumont) who -- again
                I'm
                > told -- notes that the source of this saying is a medieval text and
                the
                > source is Zarathustra, not Mithra. (M.J. Vermaseren, Mithras the
                Secret
                > God, p. 103)
                >
                > Jeffrey
                > --
                > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                > Chicago, Illinois
                > e-mail jgibson000@...
                >






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Dierk van den Berg
                Not really, Trudy. Zarathustra is Avestan, Zoroaster is Greek, Zartusht is Middle- Persian and, IIRC, Old Iranian Zarat-ushtra. Actually, for Joh 6.53-56 is
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 4, 2007
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                  Not really, Trudy.
                  Zarathustra is Avestan, Zoroaster is Greek, Zartusht is Middle-
                  Persian and, IIRC, Old Iranian Zarat-ushtra.

                  Actually, for Joh 6.53-56 is not rooted in the Gathas of the Avesta,
                  the "Mithraic" saying in question is late esoteric rparaphrase - too
                  late to take it seriously.

                  tot ziens
                  _Dierk van den Berg


                  ------------ /// ------------



                  --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Trudy Kawami" <tkawami@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Zarathustra is just a western version of the Persian name
                  Zardusht/Zardosht, etc. It is not usually prefaced by "the," that is
                  Zardusht is not a title. The Zardusht-nameh is the "Book of
                  Zardusht," a text of uncertain (very late?) date that is NOT
                  considered a reliable source of anything Zoroastrian. I am afraid
                  that "this important Persian text" is neither Persian nor important.
                  > Why not go straight to the Avesta & read the sort of sayings
                  attributed to Zoroaster in the Middle Persian (& earlier)texts. The
                  English translation is readily available on line.
                  > Trudy Kawami
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  >
                  > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Roger Pearse
                  > Sent: Fri 8/3/2007 6:02 PM
                  > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Mithtas "quote"
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Vermaseren gives this quotation (pp.103-4)
                  >
                  > "Justin records that on the occasion of the meal the participants
                  used
                  > certain formulae comparable with the ritual of the Eucharist, and in
                  > this connection mention may be made of a medieval text, [p.104]
                  > published by Cumont, in which of Christ is set beside the sayings of
                  > Zarathushtra. The Zardusht speaks to his pupils in these words: 'He
                  > who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will
                  be
                  > made one with me and I with him, the same shall not know
                  > salvation....' Compare this with Christ's words to his
                  disciples: 'He
                  > who eats of my body and drinks of my blood shall have eternal
                  life.'
                  > In this important Persian text lies the source of the conflict
                  > between the Christians and their opponents, and though of later
                  date
                  > it seems to confirm Justin's assertion."
                  >
                  > But he gives no reference. If "the Zardusht" is the Zardusht-nama,
                  it
                  > does not seem to contain any such passage. Where does Vermaseren get
                  > this from? What 'Cumont'? It is not in "Textes et Monuments" v.2.
                  >
                  > Any suggestions would be very helpful.
                  >
                  > All the best,
                  >
                  > Roger Pearse
                  >
                  > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%
                  40yahoogroups.com> , "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Dierk van den Berg wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > The source is:
                  > > > Joh 6.53-56.
                  > >
                  > > So it would appear. But not, I am told, according to Joscelyn
                  > Godwin
                  > > who
                  > > apparently claims (I don't have the book to check) in her _Mystery
                  > > Religions in the Ancient World_ (p. 28) the reference is from
                  > a "Persian
                  > > Mithraic text," or to Vermaseren (a student of Cumont) who --
                  again
                  > I'm
                  > > told -- notes that the source of this saying is a medieval text
                  and
                  > the
                  > > source is Zarathustra, not Mithra. (M.J. Vermaseren, Mithras the
                  > Secret
                  > > God, p. 103)
                  > >
                  > > Jeffrey
                  > > --
                  > > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                  > > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                  > > Chicago, Illinois
                  > > e-mail jgibson000@
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Roger Pearse
                  ... Sorry, but does this mean that you know the source of this saying or paraphrase? If so, whereabouts in the sources is it to be found? Thanks, Roger Pearse
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 4, 2007
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                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Dierk van den Berg" <haGalil@...> wrote:
                    > Actually, for Joh 6.53-56 is not rooted in the Gathas of
                    > the Avesta, the "Mithraic" saying in question is late
                    > esoteric rparaphrase - too late to take it seriously.

                    Sorry, but does this mean that you know the source of this saying or
                    paraphrase? If so, whereabouts in the sources is it to be found?

                    Thanks,

                    Roger Pearse
                  • Dierk van den Berg
                    We have Freke and Gandy quoting Godwin, who is quoting Vermaseren, who is quoting Cumont, who is quoting a lone manuscript that was written in the terror of
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 4, 2007
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                      We have Freke and Gandy quoting Godwin, who is quoting Vermaseren, who
                      is quoting Cumont, who is quoting a lone manuscript that was written in
                      the terror of the year one thousand, so I'll bet you dollars to donut
                      holes that we are high probably dealing with Adso of Montier-en-
                      Der's 'Libellus de Antichristo' 954 CE.


                      tot ziens
                      Dierk van den Berg


                      ---------- // ----------


                      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Pearse" <roger_pearse@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Dierk van den Berg" <haGalil@> wrote:
                      > > Actually, for Joh 6.53-56 is not rooted in the Gathas of
                      > > the Avesta, the "Mithraic" saying in question is late
                      > > esoteric rparaphrase - too late to take it seriously.
                      >
                      > Sorry, but does this mean that you know the source of this saying or
                      > paraphrase? If so, whereabouts in the sources is it to be found?
                      >
                      > Thanks,
                      >
                      > Roger Pearse
                      >
                    • Trudy Kawami
                      Dierk, you are right. That s what I get for trying to post while doing something else. (Multi-tasking in August is damgerous to one s health - or at least
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 6, 2007
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                        Dierk, you are right. That's what I get for trying to post while doing
                        something else. (Multi-tasking in August is damgerous to one's health -
                        or at least mind.)
                        Trudy

                        ________________________________

                        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                        Dierk van den Berg
                        Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 7:24 AM
                        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Mithras "quote"



                        Not really, Trudy.
                        Zarathustra is Avestan, Zoroaster is Greek, Zartusht is Middle-
                        Persian and, IIRC, Old Iranian Zarat-ushtra.

                        Actually, for Joh 6.53-56 is not rooted in the Gathas of the Avesta,
                        the "Mithraic" saying in question is late esoteric rparaphrase - too
                        late to take it seriously.

                        tot ziens
                        _Dierk van den Berg

                        ------------ /// ------------

                        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> , "Trudy
                        Kawami" <tkawami@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Zarathustra is just a western version of the Persian name
                        Zardusht/Zardosht, etc. It is not usually prefaced by "the," that is
                        Zardusht is not a title. The Zardusht-nameh is the "Book of
                        Zardusht," a text of uncertain (very late?) date that is NOT
                        considered a reliable source of anything Zoroastrian. I am afraid
                        that "this important Persian text" is neither Persian nor important.
                        > Why not go straight to the Avesta & read the sort of sayings
                        attributed to Zoroaster in the Middle Persian (& earlier)texts. The
                        English translation is readily available on line.
                        > Trudy Kawami
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        >
                        > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> on
                        behalf of Roger Pearse
                        > Sent: Fri 8/3/2007 6:02 PM
                        > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Mithtas "quote"
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Vermaseren gives this quotation (pp.103-4)
                        >
                        > "Justin records that on the occasion of the meal the participants
                        used
                        > certain formulae comparable with the ritual of the Eucharist, and in
                        > this connection mention may be made of a medieval text, [p.104]
                        > published by Cumont, in which of Christ is set beside the sayings of
                        > Zarathushtra. The Zardusht speaks to his pupils in these words: 'He
                        > who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will
                        be
                        > made one with me and I with him, the same shall not know
                        > salvation....' Compare this with Christ's words to his
                        disciples: 'He
                        > who eats of my body and drinks of my blood shall have eternal
                        life.'
                        > In this important Persian text lies the source of the conflict
                        > between the Christians and their opponents, and though of later
                        date
                        > it seems to confirm Justin's assertion."
                        >
                        > But he gives no reference. If "the Zardusht" is the Zardusht-nama,
                        it
                        > does not seem to contain any such passage. Where does Vermaseren get
                        > this from? What 'Cumont'? It is not in "Textes et Monuments" v.2.
                        >
                        > Any suggestions would be very helpful.
                        >
                        > All the best,
                        >
                        > Roger Pearse
                        >
                        > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                        <mailto:ANE-2%
                        40yahoogroups.com> , "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Dierk van den Berg wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > The source is:
                        > > > Joh 6.53-56.
                        > >
                        > > So it would appear. But not, I am told, according to Joscelyn
                        > Godwin
                        > > who
                        > > apparently claims (I don't have the book to check) in her _Mystery
                        > > Religions in the Ancient World_ (p. 28) the reference is from
                        > a "Persian
                        > > Mithraic text," or to Vermaseren (a student of Cumont) who --
                        again
                        > I'm
                        > > told -- notes that the source of this saying is a medieval text
                        and
                        > the
                        > > source is Zarathustra, not Mithra. (M.J. Vermaseren, Mithras the
                        > Secret
                        > > God, p. 103)
                        > >
                        > > Jeffrey
                        > > --
                        > > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                        > > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                        > > Chicago, Illinois
                        > > e-mail jgibson000@
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Roger Pearse
                        ... Most interesting! Where is the bit about the year 1000? Adso is a writer that I have not come across before -- is this a published work? For reference, I
                        Message 11 of 13 , Aug 23, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Dierk van den Berg" <haGalil@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > We have Freke and Gandy quoting Godwin, who is quoting
                          > Vermaseren, who is quoting Cumont, who is quoting a lone
                          > manuscript that was written in the terror of the year one
                          > thousand, so I'll bet you dollars to donut
                          > holes that we are high probably dealing with Adso of Montier-en-
                          > Der's 'Libellus de Antichristo' 954 CE.

                          Most interesting! Where is the bit about the year 1000? Adso is a
                          writer that I have not come across before -- is this a published
                          work?

                          For reference, I have the Cumont paper, which refers to an unknown
                          work in Garshuni in Mingana Ms. 142.

                          Mingana catalogue page image:

                          http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/mingana142.png

                          Transcribing the Syriac:

                          'Mention also is made of the god bnd'ritos, who was worshipped until
                          the arrival of Christ.

                          'On folio 59a it is said that Zoroaster (zrdšh plus a seyame -- why
                          is this plural?) said to his disciple, "Anyone who does not eat my
                          body and drink my blood and mix with me and I with him, will have no
                          salvation."'

                          Cumont article "Un bas relief Mithriaque du louvre" is here,
                          temporarily, in PDF:

                          http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/cumont_ra6_25_1946_zardusht
                          .pdf

                          For those willing to tolerate some errors, a scan of the text is
                          here:

                          http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/cumont_ra6_25_1946_zardusht
                          .htm

                          A rough English translation of the relevant bit:
                          --start---
                          St. Justin and Tertullian see in these mithraic meals a satanic
                          imitation of the Christian communion [1]. The Greek apologist,
                          recalling how the eucharist was instituted, ends by observing that
                          the perverse demons imitated it in the mysteries of Mithras, and he
                          refers to ritual formulas which were marked on the bread and the cup
                          presented to the worshipper during his initiation; they must have
                          offered some resemblance to the words pronounced by Jesus in the
                          last supper [2].

                          A strange passage in a late work may perhaps compensate for the
                          reticence of Justin, who scrupled to reproduce the pagan formulae.
                          An Arab manuscript in Syriac characters (Karshuni) of the Library of
                          Birmingham [3] containing a homily or pastoral letter, the theme of
                          which is to put side by side the false pretentions of the Jews and
                          Magians and the true wisdom of Christianity. The motif which is
                          repeated with monotonous rigour, is that the devil has accomplished
                          a series of miracles among the unbelievers, but, to these false
                          miracles, God has opposed true ones.

                          Speaking about the Magi [193.1], the unknown author asserts that
                          Zoroaster, having built pyres, exhorted his followers to throw
                          themselves into the fire, and that they would seem to perish in the
                          flames; and then coming out safe and well, they would appear to have
                          come back from the dead, but this was only an illusion produced by
                          magic spells. But Christ measured himself against Zoroaster, and by
                          really bringing people back from the dead, made the propaganda of
                          the Magi in the whole world pointless.

                          Then the Christian writer adds: "This Zardasht again says to his
                          disciples: whoever does not eat of my body and does not drink of my
                          blood, so that he mixes with me and I mix with him, he will not have
                          salvation... But Christ says to his disciples: Whoever eats my body
                          and drinks my blood will have eternal life. [193.2]"

                          The first part of this passage really goes back to a Mazdaean
                          tradition, according to which similar wonders proved the divine
                          mission of Zoroaster. In his childhood, he is thrown into a large
                          bonfire at the instigation of the wizards, but the burning flames
                          save him and his mother finds him alive [195.1]. Later, one reads
                          elsewhere, the prophet being withdrawn on a mountain, a rain of fire
                          set fire to him, but the Persians, who had come to pray in this
                          place, see the prophet appear unharmed [195.2].

                          When the author of the Arab homily claims to have consulted a book
                          of the Magi, the title of which unfortunately could not be
                          deciphered, he appears to be telling the truth. There is thus some
                          probability that he also found in this book the words which he gives
                          to Zoroaster addressing his disciples.

                          So had this book transferred to the person of the founder of
                          Mazdaeism that which the Mithraists applied to the Bull; that it was
                          necessary, in a mystical meal, to consume its flesh and to drink its
                          blood? Perhaps. But our medieval source is so confused that it would
                          be labour lost, I believe, to try to clarify this.

                          It is not doubtful that certain Magi moved their traditions closer
                          to the doctrines of the Church and claimed for themselves the
                          priority. A Mazdaean myth, stripped of its true sense, was called
                          upon to prove that Jesus, whose miraculous star was to announce the
                          birth to the astrologers of Persia, was an avatar of Zoroaster
                          [195.3]: "He will arise, says he, from my family and my line; I am
                          him, and he is me; I am in him, and he is in me " These words offer
                          a singular analogy with those of the anonymous Arab "so that he
                          mixes with me and I mix with him".

                          F. Cumont.
                          ---

                          1. Tertullien. De praescr. haeret.. 40 : Mithra celebrat et panis
                          oblationem et imaginent resurrectionis inducit. »

                          2. Justin. Apol. I, 66 ...

                          3. A. Mingana, Catalogue of the Mingana collection of manuscripts
                          (Birmingham, Selley Oak colleges library) Cambridge, 1933. Ms.
                          Mingana, n° 142, ff. 48 - 61. --- Our attention was drawn to this
                          manuscript by Fr. Vosé, whose erudition as an orientalist has again
                          allowed us to profit from his discoveries. Our friend Mr. Levi della
                          Vida agreed to undertake to translate the Karshuni work which
                          interested us, with his proven competence, and he proposed to study
                          in it more detail and determine its sources and date. The war has
                          unfortunately halted his research; let us hope, only temporarily.

                          193.1. We reproduce here the translation of what this difficult to
                          access and sometimes not very comprehensible work says about the
                          Magi. f. 158 b: "As for the sect of the Magi, we will say again to
                          you what did Zardasht in the time of L d. yû. n (or c. d. yû. n),
                          the 82nd king after Adam. He started pyres, and accomplished
                          prodigies which induced souls to obey him. Among his various
                          miracles, he excited people to throw themselves into the pyres, and
                          those who saw them believed that they burned, but all this was art
                          of sorcery. After some time, as they always found them in the pyres,
                          the people believed (f. 159 a) that they were resuscitated, as the
                          book Z. b. h. r. and other books of the Magi attest. This Zardasht
                          again says to his disciples: whoever does not eat of my body and
                          does not drink of my blood, so that he mixes with me and I mix with
                          him, he will not have salvation." When his works became famous, and
                          his followers spread in the world, they boiled and drank beef.

                          193.2. Jean, VI, 53; cf Matth., XXVI, 26. — On the introduction of a
                          similar formula into Manicheism, cf Alberry, Das manichäische Bema-
                          Fest (Zeitschr. F Neutest. Wissenschaft, 1938, XXXVII, p. 7).

                          195.1. Dinkart, VII, 3, 8 s. (West, Pahlavi Texts, V, 36), Zad-
                          Sparam, XVI, 7 (Ibid., p. 146). The same story in the Persian
                          Zarâtust Nama (Rosenberg, Le livre de Zoroastre, 1904, c. 8, p. 12).

                          195.2. Dion Chrysost... Or.. XXXVI, 39. cf. our Mages hellénisés. I,
                          p. 29 ; II, p. 143. In the same way at the end of the world, the
                          just will traverse a river of fire without feeling the burning
                          (Boundahish, XXX. 18).

                          195.3. Theodore bar Koni, in Mages hellénisés, vol. II, p. 128
                          (translation of P. Peeters) ; cf. vol. I, p. 52 ff.
                          ---



                          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Dierk van den Berg" <haGalil@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > We have Freke and Gandy quoting Godwin, who is quoting
                          > Vermaseren, who is quoting Cumont, who is quoting a lone
                          > manuscript that was written in the terror of the year one
                          > thousand, so I'll bet you dollars to donut
                          > holes that we are high probably dealing with Adso of Montier-en-
                          > Der's 'Libellus de Antichristo' 954 CE.
                          >
                          >
                          > tot ziens
                          > Dierk van den Berg
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------- // ----------
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Pearse" <roger_pearse@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Dierk van den Berg" <haGalil@>
                          wrote:
                          > > > Actually, for Joh 6.53-56 is not rooted in the Gathas of
                          > > > the Avesta, the "Mithraic" saying in question is late
                          > > > esoteric rparaphrase - too late to take it seriously.
                          > >
                          > > Sorry, but does this mean that you know the source of this
                          saying or
                          > > paraphrase? If so, whereabouts in the sources is it to be
                          found?
                          > >
                          > > Thanks,
                          > >
                          > > Roger Pearse
                          > >
                          >
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