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Mithtas "quote"

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  • Jeffrey B. Gibson
    Can anyone answer the question below that was posed on another forum by my friend Roger Pearse? Yours, Jeffrey ********* A common supposed quotation came my
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 3, 2007
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      Can anyone answer the question below that was posed on another forum by
      my friend Roger Pearse?


      Yours,

      Jeffrey

      *********
      A common supposed quotation came my way in usenet, and I have been
      spurred to try to track it down. I haven't succeeded -- can anyone give
      a real source?


      This quote is attributed to Mithras:


      "He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that
      he will be made one with me and I with him, the same shall not
      know salvation."

      The source may be the "Zardusht-nama" (Book of Zoroaster), a 13th
      century text.

      Here are the links that I found, in sequence of what leads to what:

      The quote: http://www.farvardyn.com/mithras4.php

      Cumont, Mithras, Zardusht (the page is mostly full of nonsense, tho)
      http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Religi...sm/m_m/pt5.htm

      About the Zardust-nama:
      http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Zoroaster

      (or Zartushtnamah):
      http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02151b.htm

      This gives us:
      http://www.avesta.org/dhalla/history6.htm

      "Other works in Persian. Besides the Rivayats, several works, both in
      prose and in verse, have reached us. The most important of these is the
      Zartusht Namah or Book of Zartusht composed in verse by Zartusht Bahram
      Pazdu in the thirteenth [460] century.2 The account of the life of the
      prophet is based upon the Pahlavi works.

      [2] West, GIrPh. 2.122, 123; Eastwick, tr. in English in Wilson's Parsi
      Religion, p. 477-522; Rosenberg, Le Livre de Zoroaster.

      Wilson's Parsi Religion (online complete):
      http://books.google.com/books?id=3Da...85&dq=3DWilson

      I have examined the translation of the Zartusht-Namah in Wilson, but I
      couldn't see the lines in question. References to 'Meher' are being
      treated as 'Mithra'.

      There seems to be some question of whether this text is faintly genuine,
      even as what it purports to be.

      The only source that I can find for the quote is Vermaseren, "Mithras:
      the secret god". I have been to look at this. Infuriatingly, it gives no
      reference for the statement, beyond "Cumont".

      I've also had a look at Cumont's two volume compendium of all Mithraic
      literature, "Textes et Monuments", and it contains no reference in the
      texts or in the index to the Zardusht or any Persian literature.

      I think that Vermaseren wouldn't have made it up; but I don't quite know
      how to proceed.

      Incidentally do you notice that, of all those who have freely circulated
      this 'quote', evidently none of them have verified it? Isn't that
      depressing?

      All the best,

      Roger Pearse

      ********
      --
      Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
      1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
      Chicago, Illinois
      e-mail jgibson000@...



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Trudy Kawami
      This quote sounds like a paraphrase of one of the Gospels, not something Zoroastrian. Zoroastrian Meher (Mithra) is a solar deity associated with justice, not
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 3, 2007
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        This quote sounds like a paraphrase of one of the Gospels, not
        something Zoroastrian. Zoroastrian Meher (Mithra) is a solar deity
        associated with justice, not a sacrificial figure. The Cult of Mithra
        the bull-slayer is one of the mystery cults of the Roman Empire and has
        very little to do with (Iranian) Zoroastrianism. There was a lot of
        "back-construction" in 19th century scholarship on Zoroastrianism, much
        of it inadvertantly fed by informants who were themselves influenced by
        "western" thought. I would start with Mary Boyce's work on
        Zoroastrianism as a base.
        Trudy Kawami ,_._,___


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Dierk van den Berg
        The source is: Joh 6.53-56. tot ziens, Dierk van den Berg ... forum by ... give
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 3, 2007
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          The source is:
          Joh 6.53-56.


          tot ziens,
          Dierk van den Berg



          ------------------- /// --------------------




          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Can anyone answer the question below that was posed on another
          forum by
          > my friend Roger Pearse?
          >
          >
          > Yours,
          >
          > Jeffrey
          >
          > *********
          > A common supposed quotation came my way in usenet, and I have been
          > spurred to try to track it down. I haven't succeeded -- can anyone
          give
          > a real source?
          >
          >
          > This quote is attributed to Mithras:
          >
          >
          > "He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that
          > he will be made one with me and I with him, the same shall not
          > know salvation."
          >
          > The source may be the "Zardusht-nama" (Book of Zoroaster), a 13th
          > century text.
          >
          > [snip]
          >
          > Roger Pearse
          >
          > ********
          > --
          > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
          > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
          > Chicago, Illinois
          > e-mail jgibson000@...
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Jeffrey B. Gibson
          ... So it would appear. But not, I am told, according to Joscelyn Godwin who apparently claims (I don t have the book to check) in her _Mystery Religions in
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 3, 2007
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            Dierk van den Berg wrote:

            > The source is:
            > Joh 6.53-56.

            So it would appear. But not, I am told, according to Joscelyn Godwin
            who
            apparently claims (I don't have the book to check) in her _Mystery
            Religions in the Ancient World_ (p. 28) the reference is from a "Persian
            Mithraic text," or to Vermaseren (a student of Cumont) who -- again I'm
            told -- notes that the source of this saying is a medieval text and the
            source is Zarathustra, not Mithra. (M.J. Vermaseren, Mithras the Secret
            God, p. 103)

            Jeffrey
            --
            Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
            1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
            Chicago, Illinois
            e-mail jgibson000@...
          • Roger Pearse
            Vermaseren gives this quotation (pp.103-4) Justin records that on the occasion of the meal the participants used certain formulae comparable with the ritual
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 3, 2007
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              Vermaseren gives this quotation (pp.103-4)

              "Justin records that on the occasion of the meal the participants used
              certain formulae comparable with the ritual of the Eucharist, and in
              this connection mention may be made of a medieval text, [p.104]
              published by Cumont, in which of Christ is set beside the sayings of
              Zarathushtra. The Zardusht speaks to his pupils in these words: 'He
              who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be
              made one with me and I with him, the same shall not know
              salvation....' Compare this with Christ's words to his disciples: 'He
              who eats of my body and drinks of my blood shall have eternal life.'
              In this important Persian text lies the source of the conflict
              between the Christians and their opponents, and though of later date
              it seems to confirm Justin's assertion."

              But he gives no reference. If "the Zardusht" is the Zardusht-nama, it
              does not seem to contain any such passage. Where does Vermaseren get
              this from? What 'Cumont'? It is not in "Textes et Monuments" v.2.

              Any suggestions would be very helpful.

              All the best,

              Roger Pearse

              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>
              wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > Dierk van den Berg wrote:
              >
              > > The source is:
              > > Joh 6.53-56.
              >
              > So it would appear. But not, I am told, according to Joscelyn
              Godwin
              > who
              > apparently claims (I don't have the book to check) in her _Mystery
              > Religions in the Ancient World_ (p. 28) the reference is from
              a "Persian
              > Mithraic text," or to Vermaseren (a student of Cumont) who -- again
              I'm
              > told -- notes that the source of this saying is a medieval text and
              the
              > source is Zarathustra, not Mithra. (M.J. Vermaseren, Mithras the
              Secret
              > God, p. 103)
              >
              > Jeffrey
              > --
              > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
              > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
              > Chicago, Illinois
              > e-mail jgibson000@...
              >
            • Dierk van den Berg
              It is not mentioned in the Zarathustrian Gathas, IIRC. tot ziens, Dierk van den Berg ... Godwin ... a Persian ... I m ... the ... Secret
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 3, 2007
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                It is not mentioned in the Zarathustrian Gathas, IIRC.

                tot ziens,
                Dierk van den Berg


                --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>
                wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > Dierk van den Berg wrote:
                >
                > > The source is:
                > > Joh 6.53-56.
                >
                > So it would appear. But not, I am told, according to Joscelyn
                Godwin
                > who
                > apparently claims (I don't have the book to check) in her _Mystery
                > Religions in the Ancient World_ (p. 28) the reference is from
                a "Persian
                > Mithraic text," or to Vermaseren (a student of Cumont) who -- again
                I'm
                > told -- notes that the source of this saying is a medieval text and
                the
                > source is Zarathustra, not Mithra. (M.J. Vermaseren, Mithras the
                Secret
                > God, p. 103)
                >
                > Jeffrey
                > --
                > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                > Chicago, Illinois
                > e-mail jgibson000@...
                >
              • Peter T. Daniels
                Joscelyn Godwin is an Englishman; he was finishing his graduate studies in musicology at Cornell during my first undergraduate year (1968-69). Among his
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 3, 2007
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                  Joscelyn Godwin is an Englishman; he was finishing his graduate studies in musicology at Cornell during my first undergraduate year (1968-69). Among his fascinating publications are a study of Athanasius Kircher, well known for his studies of Egyptian hieroglyphs, and the translation of Hypnerotomachia Poliphili, that most enigmatic of incunabula.

                  If it's esoteric, he's your man.
                  --
                  Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...



                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...>
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, August 3, 2007 5:26:43 PM
                  Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: Mithtas "quote"



                  Dierk van den Berg wrote:

                  > The source is:
                  > Joh 6.53-56.

                  So it would appear. But not, I am told, according to Joscelyn Godwin
                  who
                  apparently claims (I don't have the book to check) in her _Mystery
                  Religions in the Ancient World_ (p. 28) the reference is from a "Persian
                  Mithraic text," or to Vermaseren (a student of Cumont) who -- again I'm
                  told -- notes that the source of this saying is a medieval text and the
                  source is Zarathustra, not Mithra. (M.J. Vermaseren, Mithras the Secret
                  God, p. 103)

                  Jeffrey
                  --
                  Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                  1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                  Chicago, Illinois
                  e-mail jgibson000@comcast. net



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Trudy Kawami
                  Zarathustra is just a western version of the Persian name Zardusht/Zardosht, etc. It is not usually prefaced by the, that is Zardusht is not a title. The
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 3, 2007
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                    Zarathustra is just a western version of the Persian name Zardusht/Zardosht, etc. It is not usually prefaced by "the," that is Zardusht is not a title. The Zardusht-nameh is the "Book of Zardusht," a text of uncertain (very late?) date that is NOT considered a reliable source of anything Zoroastrian. I am afraid that "this important Persian text" is neither Persian nor important.
                    Why not go straight to the Avesta & read the sort of sayings attributed to Zoroaster in the Middle Persian (& earlier)texts. The English translation is readily available on line.
                    Trudy Kawami

                    ________________________________

                    From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Roger Pearse
                    Sent: Fri 8/3/2007 6:02 PM
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Mithtas "quote"



                    Vermaseren gives this quotation (pp.103-4)

                    "Justin records that on the occasion of the meal the participants used
                    certain formulae comparable with the ritual of the Eucharist, and in
                    this connection mention may be made of a medieval text, [p.104]
                    published by Cumont, in which of Christ is set beside the sayings of
                    Zarathushtra. The Zardusht speaks to his pupils in these words: 'He
                    who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be
                    made one with me and I with him, the same shall not know
                    salvation....' Compare this with Christ's words to his disciples: 'He
                    who eats of my body and drinks of my blood shall have eternal life.'
                    In this important Persian text lies the source of the conflict
                    between the Christians and their opponents, and though of later date
                    it seems to confirm Justin's assertion."

                    But he gives no reference. If "the Zardusht" is the Zardusht-nama, it
                    does not seem to contain any such passage. Where does Vermaseren get
                    this from? What 'Cumont'? It is not in "Textes et Monuments" v.2.

                    Any suggestions would be very helpful.

                    All the best,

                    Roger Pearse

                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> , "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Dierk van den Berg wrote:
                    >
                    > > The source is:
                    > > Joh 6.53-56.
                    >
                    > So it would appear. But not, I am told, according to Joscelyn
                    Godwin
                    > who
                    > apparently claims (I don't have the book to check) in her _Mystery
                    > Religions in the Ancient World_ (p. 28) the reference is from
                    a "Persian
                    > Mithraic text," or to Vermaseren (a student of Cumont) who -- again
                    I'm
                    > told -- notes that the source of this saying is a medieval text and
                    the
                    > source is Zarathustra, not Mithra. (M.J. Vermaseren, Mithras the
                    Secret
                    > God, p. 103)
                    >
                    > Jeffrey
                    > --
                    > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                    > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                    > Chicago, Illinois
                    > e-mail jgibson000@...
                    >






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Dierk van den Berg
                    Not really, Trudy. Zarathustra is Avestan, Zoroaster is Greek, Zartusht is Middle- Persian and, IIRC, Old Iranian Zarat-ushtra. Actually, for Joh 6.53-56 is
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 4, 2007
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                      Not really, Trudy.
                      Zarathustra is Avestan, Zoroaster is Greek, Zartusht is Middle-
                      Persian and, IIRC, Old Iranian Zarat-ushtra.

                      Actually, for Joh 6.53-56 is not rooted in the Gathas of the Avesta,
                      the "Mithraic" saying in question is late esoteric rparaphrase - too
                      late to take it seriously.

                      tot ziens
                      _Dierk van den Berg


                      ------------ /// ------------



                      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Trudy Kawami" <tkawami@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Zarathustra is just a western version of the Persian name
                      Zardusht/Zardosht, etc. It is not usually prefaced by "the," that is
                      Zardusht is not a title. The Zardusht-nameh is the "Book of
                      Zardusht," a text of uncertain (very late?) date that is NOT
                      considered a reliable source of anything Zoroastrian. I am afraid
                      that "this important Persian text" is neither Persian nor important.
                      > Why not go straight to the Avesta & read the sort of sayings
                      attributed to Zoroaster in the Middle Persian (& earlier)texts. The
                      English translation is readily available on line.
                      > Trudy Kawami
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      >
                      > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Roger Pearse
                      > Sent: Fri 8/3/2007 6:02 PM
                      > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Mithtas "quote"
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Vermaseren gives this quotation (pp.103-4)
                      >
                      > "Justin records that on the occasion of the meal the participants
                      used
                      > certain formulae comparable with the ritual of the Eucharist, and in
                      > this connection mention may be made of a medieval text, [p.104]
                      > published by Cumont, in which of Christ is set beside the sayings of
                      > Zarathushtra. The Zardusht speaks to his pupils in these words: 'He
                      > who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will
                      be
                      > made one with me and I with him, the same shall not know
                      > salvation....' Compare this with Christ's words to his
                      disciples: 'He
                      > who eats of my body and drinks of my blood shall have eternal
                      life.'
                      > In this important Persian text lies the source of the conflict
                      > between the Christians and their opponents, and though of later
                      date
                      > it seems to confirm Justin's assertion."
                      >
                      > But he gives no reference. If "the Zardusht" is the Zardusht-nama,
                      it
                      > does not seem to contain any such passage. Where does Vermaseren get
                      > this from? What 'Cumont'? It is not in "Textes et Monuments" v.2.
                      >
                      > Any suggestions would be very helpful.
                      >
                      > All the best,
                      >
                      > Roger Pearse
                      >
                      > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%
                      40yahoogroups.com> , "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Dierk van den Berg wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > The source is:
                      > > > Joh 6.53-56.
                      > >
                      > > So it would appear. But not, I am told, according to Joscelyn
                      > Godwin
                      > > who
                      > > apparently claims (I don't have the book to check) in her _Mystery
                      > > Religions in the Ancient World_ (p. 28) the reference is from
                      > a "Persian
                      > > Mithraic text," or to Vermaseren (a student of Cumont) who --
                      again
                      > I'm
                      > > told -- notes that the source of this saying is a medieval text
                      and
                      > the
                      > > source is Zarathustra, not Mithra. (M.J. Vermaseren, Mithras the
                      > Secret
                      > > God, p. 103)
                      > >
                      > > Jeffrey
                      > > --
                      > > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                      > > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                      > > Chicago, Illinois
                      > > e-mail jgibson000@
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Roger Pearse
                      ... Sorry, but does this mean that you know the source of this saying or paraphrase? If so, whereabouts in the sources is it to be found? Thanks, Roger Pearse
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 4, 2007
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                        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Dierk van den Berg" <haGalil@...> wrote:
                        > Actually, for Joh 6.53-56 is not rooted in the Gathas of
                        > the Avesta, the "Mithraic" saying in question is late
                        > esoteric rparaphrase - too late to take it seriously.

                        Sorry, but does this mean that you know the source of this saying or
                        paraphrase? If so, whereabouts in the sources is it to be found?

                        Thanks,

                        Roger Pearse
                      • Dierk van den Berg
                        We have Freke and Gandy quoting Godwin, who is quoting Vermaseren, who is quoting Cumont, who is quoting a lone manuscript that was written in the terror of
                        Message 11 of 13 , Aug 4, 2007
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                          We have Freke and Gandy quoting Godwin, who is quoting Vermaseren, who
                          is quoting Cumont, who is quoting a lone manuscript that was written in
                          the terror of the year one thousand, so I'll bet you dollars to donut
                          holes that we are high probably dealing with Adso of Montier-en-
                          Der's 'Libellus de Antichristo' 954 CE.


                          tot ziens
                          Dierk van den Berg


                          ---------- // ----------


                          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Pearse" <roger_pearse@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Dierk van den Berg" <haGalil@> wrote:
                          > > Actually, for Joh 6.53-56 is not rooted in the Gathas of
                          > > the Avesta, the "Mithraic" saying in question is late
                          > > esoteric rparaphrase - too late to take it seriously.
                          >
                          > Sorry, but does this mean that you know the source of this saying or
                          > paraphrase? If so, whereabouts in the sources is it to be found?
                          >
                          > Thanks,
                          >
                          > Roger Pearse
                          >
                        • Trudy Kawami
                          Dierk, you are right. That s what I get for trying to post while doing something else. (Multi-tasking in August is damgerous to one s health - or at least
                          Message 12 of 13 , Aug 6, 2007
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                            Dierk, you are right. That's what I get for trying to post while doing
                            something else. (Multi-tasking in August is damgerous to one's health -
                            or at least mind.)
                            Trudy

                            ________________________________

                            From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                            Dierk van den Berg
                            Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 7:24 AM
                            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Mithras "quote"



                            Not really, Trudy.
                            Zarathustra is Avestan, Zoroaster is Greek, Zartusht is Middle-
                            Persian and, IIRC, Old Iranian Zarat-ushtra.

                            Actually, for Joh 6.53-56 is not rooted in the Gathas of the Avesta,
                            the "Mithraic" saying in question is late esoteric rparaphrase - too
                            late to take it seriously.

                            tot ziens
                            _Dierk van den Berg

                            ------------ /// ------------

                            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> , "Trudy
                            Kawami" <tkawami@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Zarathustra is just a western version of the Persian name
                            Zardusht/Zardosht, etc. It is not usually prefaced by "the," that is
                            Zardusht is not a title. The Zardusht-nameh is the "Book of
                            Zardusht," a text of uncertain (very late?) date that is NOT
                            considered a reliable source of anything Zoroastrian. I am afraid
                            that "this important Persian text" is neither Persian nor important.
                            > Why not go straight to the Avesta & read the sort of sayings
                            attributed to Zoroaster in the Middle Persian (& earlier)texts. The
                            English translation is readily available on line.
                            > Trudy Kawami
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            >
                            > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> on
                            behalf of Roger Pearse
                            > Sent: Fri 8/3/2007 6:02 PM
                            > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Mithtas "quote"
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Vermaseren gives this quotation (pp.103-4)
                            >
                            > "Justin records that on the occasion of the meal the participants
                            used
                            > certain formulae comparable with the ritual of the Eucharist, and in
                            > this connection mention may be made of a medieval text, [p.104]
                            > published by Cumont, in which of Christ is set beside the sayings of
                            > Zarathushtra. The Zardusht speaks to his pupils in these words: 'He
                            > who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will
                            be
                            > made one with me and I with him, the same shall not know
                            > salvation....' Compare this with Christ's words to his
                            disciples: 'He
                            > who eats of my body and drinks of my blood shall have eternal
                            life.'
                            > In this important Persian text lies the source of the conflict
                            > between the Christians and their opponents, and though of later
                            date
                            > it seems to confirm Justin's assertion."
                            >
                            > But he gives no reference. If "the Zardusht" is the Zardusht-nama,
                            it
                            > does not seem to contain any such passage. Where does Vermaseren get
                            > this from? What 'Cumont'? It is not in "Textes et Monuments" v.2.
                            >
                            > Any suggestions would be very helpful.
                            >
                            > All the best,
                            >
                            > Roger Pearse
                            >
                            > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                            <mailto:ANE-2%
                            40yahoogroups.com> , "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Dierk van den Berg wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > The source is:
                            > > > Joh 6.53-56.
                            > >
                            > > So it would appear. But not, I am told, according to Joscelyn
                            > Godwin
                            > > who
                            > > apparently claims (I don't have the book to check) in her _Mystery
                            > > Religions in the Ancient World_ (p. 28) the reference is from
                            > a "Persian
                            > > Mithraic text," or to Vermaseren (a student of Cumont) who --
                            again
                            > I'm
                            > > told -- notes that the source of this saying is a medieval text
                            and
                            > the
                            > > source is Zarathustra, not Mithra. (M.J. Vermaseren, Mithras the
                            > Secret
                            > > God, p. 103)
                            > >
                            > > Jeffrey
                            > > --
                            > > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                            > > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                            > > Chicago, Illinois
                            > > e-mail jgibson000@
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Roger Pearse
                            ... Most interesting! Where is the bit about the year 1000? Adso is a writer that I have not come across before -- is this a published work? For reference, I
                            Message 13 of 13 , Aug 23, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Dierk van den Berg" <haGalil@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > We have Freke and Gandy quoting Godwin, who is quoting
                              > Vermaseren, who is quoting Cumont, who is quoting a lone
                              > manuscript that was written in the terror of the year one
                              > thousand, so I'll bet you dollars to donut
                              > holes that we are high probably dealing with Adso of Montier-en-
                              > Der's 'Libellus de Antichristo' 954 CE.

                              Most interesting! Where is the bit about the year 1000? Adso is a
                              writer that I have not come across before -- is this a published
                              work?

                              For reference, I have the Cumont paper, which refers to an unknown
                              work in Garshuni in Mingana Ms. 142.

                              Mingana catalogue page image:

                              http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/mingana142.png

                              Transcribing the Syriac:

                              'Mention also is made of the god bnd'ritos, who was worshipped until
                              the arrival of Christ.

                              'On folio 59a it is said that Zoroaster (zrdšh plus a seyame -- why
                              is this plural?) said to his disciple, "Anyone who does not eat my
                              body and drink my blood and mix with me and I with him, will have no
                              salvation."'

                              Cumont article "Un bas relief Mithriaque du louvre" is here,
                              temporarily, in PDF:

                              http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/cumont_ra6_25_1946_zardusht
                              .pdf

                              For those willing to tolerate some errors, a scan of the text is
                              here:

                              http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/cumont_ra6_25_1946_zardusht
                              .htm

                              A rough English translation of the relevant bit:
                              --start---
                              St. Justin and Tertullian see in these mithraic meals a satanic
                              imitation of the Christian communion [1]. The Greek apologist,
                              recalling how the eucharist was instituted, ends by observing that
                              the perverse demons imitated it in the mysteries of Mithras, and he
                              refers to ritual formulas which were marked on the bread and the cup
                              presented to the worshipper during his initiation; they must have
                              offered some resemblance to the words pronounced by Jesus in the
                              last supper [2].

                              A strange passage in a late work may perhaps compensate for the
                              reticence of Justin, who scrupled to reproduce the pagan formulae.
                              An Arab manuscript in Syriac characters (Karshuni) of the Library of
                              Birmingham [3] containing a homily or pastoral letter, the theme of
                              which is to put side by side the false pretentions of the Jews and
                              Magians and the true wisdom of Christianity. The motif which is
                              repeated with monotonous rigour, is that the devil has accomplished
                              a series of miracles among the unbelievers, but, to these false
                              miracles, God has opposed true ones.

                              Speaking about the Magi [193.1], the unknown author asserts that
                              Zoroaster, having built pyres, exhorted his followers to throw
                              themselves into the fire, and that they would seem to perish in the
                              flames; and then coming out safe and well, they would appear to have
                              come back from the dead, but this was only an illusion produced by
                              magic spells. But Christ measured himself against Zoroaster, and by
                              really bringing people back from the dead, made the propaganda of
                              the Magi in the whole world pointless.

                              Then the Christian writer adds: "This Zardasht again says to his
                              disciples: whoever does not eat of my body and does not drink of my
                              blood, so that he mixes with me and I mix with him, he will not have
                              salvation... But Christ says to his disciples: Whoever eats my body
                              and drinks my blood will have eternal life. [193.2]"

                              The first part of this passage really goes back to a Mazdaean
                              tradition, according to which similar wonders proved the divine
                              mission of Zoroaster. In his childhood, he is thrown into a large
                              bonfire at the instigation of the wizards, but the burning flames
                              save him and his mother finds him alive [195.1]. Later, one reads
                              elsewhere, the prophet being withdrawn on a mountain, a rain of fire
                              set fire to him, but the Persians, who had come to pray in this
                              place, see the prophet appear unharmed [195.2].

                              When the author of the Arab homily claims to have consulted a book
                              of the Magi, the title of which unfortunately could not be
                              deciphered, he appears to be telling the truth. There is thus some
                              probability that he also found in this book the words which he gives
                              to Zoroaster addressing his disciples.

                              So had this book transferred to the person of the founder of
                              Mazdaeism that which the Mithraists applied to the Bull; that it was
                              necessary, in a mystical meal, to consume its flesh and to drink its
                              blood? Perhaps. But our medieval source is so confused that it would
                              be labour lost, I believe, to try to clarify this.

                              It is not doubtful that certain Magi moved their traditions closer
                              to the doctrines of the Church and claimed for themselves the
                              priority. A Mazdaean myth, stripped of its true sense, was called
                              upon to prove that Jesus, whose miraculous star was to announce the
                              birth to the astrologers of Persia, was an avatar of Zoroaster
                              [195.3]: "He will arise, says he, from my family and my line; I am
                              him, and he is me; I am in him, and he is in me " These words offer
                              a singular analogy with those of the anonymous Arab "so that he
                              mixes with me and I mix with him".

                              F. Cumont.
                              ---

                              1. Tertullien. De praescr. haeret.. 40 : Mithra celebrat et panis
                              oblationem et imaginent resurrectionis inducit. »

                              2. Justin. Apol. I, 66 ...

                              3. A. Mingana, Catalogue of the Mingana collection of manuscripts
                              (Birmingham, Selley Oak colleges library) Cambridge, 1933. Ms.
                              Mingana, n° 142, ff. 48 - 61. --- Our attention was drawn to this
                              manuscript by Fr. Vosé, whose erudition as an orientalist has again
                              allowed us to profit from his discoveries. Our friend Mr. Levi della
                              Vida agreed to undertake to translate the Karshuni work which
                              interested us, with his proven competence, and he proposed to study
                              in it more detail and determine its sources and date. The war has
                              unfortunately halted his research; let us hope, only temporarily.

                              193.1. We reproduce here the translation of what this difficult to
                              access and sometimes not very comprehensible work says about the
                              Magi. f. 158 b: "As for the sect of the Magi, we will say again to
                              you what did Zardasht in the time of L d. yû. n (or c. d. yû. n),
                              the 82nd king after Adam. He started pyres, and accomplished
                              prodigies which induced souls to obey him. Among his various
                              miracles, he excited people to throw themselves into the pyres, and
                              those who saw them believed that they burned, but all this was art
                              of sorcery. After some time, as they always found them in the pyres,
                              the people believed (f. 159 a) that they were resuscitated, as the
                              book Z. b. h. r. and other books of the Magi attest. This Zardasht
                              again says to his disciples: whoever does not eat of my body and
                              does not drink of my blood, so that he mixes with me and I mix with
                              him, he will not have salvation." When his works became famous, and
                              his followers spread in the world, they boiled and drank beef.

                              193.2. Jean, VI, 53; cf Matth., XXVI, 26. — On the introduction of a
                              similar formula into Manicheism, cf Alberry, Das manichäische Bema-
                              Fest (Zeitschr. F Neutest. Wissenschaft, 1938, XXXVII, p. 7).

                              195.1. Dinkart, VII, 3, 8 s. (West, Pahlavi Texts, V, 36), Zad-
                              Sparam, XVI, 7 (Ibid., p. 146). The same story in the Persian
                              Zarâtust Nama (Rosenberg, Le livre de Zoroastre, 1904, c. 8, p. 12).

                              195.2. Dion Chrysost... Or.. XXXVI, 39. cf. our Mages hellénisés. I,
                              p. 29 ; II, p. 143. In the same way at the end of the world, the
                              just will traverse a river of fire without feeling the burning
                              (Boundahish, XXX. 18).

                              195.3. Theodore bar Koni, in Mages hellénisés, vol. II, p. 128
                              (translation of P. Peeters) ; cf. vol. I, p. 52 ff.
                              ---



                              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Dierk van den Berg" <haGalil@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > We have Freke and Gandy quoting Godwin, who is quoting
                              > Vermaseren, who is quoting Cumont, who is quoting a lone
                              > manuscript that was written in the terror of the year one
                              > thousand, so I'll bet you dollars to donut
                              > holes that we are high probably dealing with Adso of Montier-en-
                              > Der's 'Libellus de Antichristo' 954 CE.
                              >
                              >
                              > tot ziens
                              > Dierk van den Berg
                              >
                              >
                              > ---------- // ----------
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Pearse" <roger_pearse@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Dierk van den Berg" <haGalil@>
                              wrote:
                              > > > Actually, for Joh 6.53-56 is not rooted in the Gathas of
                              > > > the Avesta, the "Mithraic" saying in question is late
                              > > > esoteric rparaphrase - too late to take it seriously.
                              > >
                              > > Sorry, but does this mean that you know the source of this
                              saying or
                              > > paraphrase? If so, whereabouts in the sources is it to be
                              found?
                              > >
                              > > Thanks,
                              > >
                              > > Roger Pearse
                              > >
                              >
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