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Re: Hittites in the Levant (was:"Hittites" Re: SV: [ANE-2] pulling down houses)

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  • Peter T. Daniels
    The Hittite and Hurrian languages are not similar. Hittite is Indo-European. Hurrian is related to no known language other than Urartian. Do not cite wikipedia
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 29, 2007
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      The Hittite and Hurrian languages are not similar.

      Hittite is Indo-European.

      Hurrian is related to no known language other than Urartian.

      Do not cite wikipedia in a scholarly forum.
      --
      Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: David Hall <dqhall59@...>
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 1:42:59 PM
      Subject: Re: Hittites in the Levant (was:"Hittites" Re: SV: [ANE-2] pulling down houses)

      The Hittite and Hurrian languages were similar. The Amarna tablets included words written by Abdi-Hepa of Jerusalem. It has been argued that this name was Hurrian or Hittite as the two languages and cultures were similar. The Hurrian culture was found in Alalakh near the Syrian coast in the 18th cent. BCE. The Hittite culture was displacing the Hurrian culture in Syria during the Amarna age. About the time of the Amarna tablets were the tablets of Nuzi near Kirkuk, Iraq containing Hurrian forms. The Hurrians seem to have been dispersed by the 12th century. The Hittite culture may have endured into Assyrian times near Carchemesh and the upper Euphrates River into Assyrian Dynasty times as the Assyrians made mention of them. The Hurrian culture was not know to have survived the end of the Bronze Age (Wickip.).
    • Robert M Whiting
      ... To about the same extent that Akkadian and Sumerian were similar. Like Sumerian and Akkadian, Hittite and Hurrian belong to completely different and
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 29, 2007
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        On Sun, 29 Jul 2007, David Hall wrote:

        > The Hittite and Hurrian languages were similar.

        To about the same extent that Akkadian and Sumerian were similar. Like
        Sumerian and Akkadian, Hittite and Hurrian belong to completely different
        and unrelated language groups. Hittite is Indo-European. Hurrian may be
        related to Caucasian languages, but is generally considered an isolate; in
        any case, it is not Indo-European. The fact that there may be many loan
        words between the languages does not make them related any more than the
        very large number of French loan words in English makes English a Romance
        language. Languages that are in contact over a long period will come to
        have surface resemblances (these are called areal features) but will
        retain their own inherent structures.

        > The Amarna tablets included words written by Abdi-Hepa of Jerusalem.

        Abdi-Hepa is simply a West Semitic name. The theophoric element comes
        from the name of a goddess of Hittite/Hurrian origin; but this goddess was
        part of the local pantheon so it is not a foreign word for these purposes.
        The 'abd' part is, of course, the common West Semitic for "slave/servant".

        > It has been argued that this name was Hurrian or Hittite as the two
        > languages and cultures were similar.

        But this is of course fallacious because the two languages are not similar
        at all. The cultures may be similar, but that is areal rather than
        cognate, and as long as Hepa was a local goddess, the name is good West
        Semitic. Foreign gods are frequently adopted by local cultures and
        religions often cross linguistic boundaries.

        <snip>

        Bob Whiting
        whiting@...
      • Niels Peter Lemche
        Abdi is normally here written ÌR. There has been some discussion about the first part of the name, whether or not it is really West Semitic (although I
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 29, 2007
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          Abdi is normally here written ÌR. There has been some discussion about the first part of the name, whether or not it is really West Semitic (although I personally prefer to see it as such).

          Hall's mistake is understandable when one forgets Bob's remarks about acculturation, including translation.

          Niels Peter Lemche


          -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
          Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Robert M Whiting
          Sendt: 29. juli 2007 21:16
          Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Emne: Re: Hittites in the Levant (was:"Hittites" Re: SV: [ANE-2] pulling down houses)

          On Sun, 29 Jul 2007, David Hall wrote:

          > The Hittite and Hurrian languages were similar.

          To about the same extent that Akkadian and Sumerian were similar. Like
          Sumerian and Akkadian, Hittite and Hurrian belong to completely different
          and unrelated language groups. Hittite is Indo-European. Hurrian may be
          related to Caucasian languages, but is generally considered an isolate; in
          any case, it is not Indo-European. The fact that there may be many loan
          words between the languages does not make them related any more than the
          very large number of French loan words in English makes English a Romance
          language. Languages that are in contact over a long period will come to
          have surface resemblances (these are called areal features) but will
          retain their own inherent structures.

          > The Amarna tablets included words written by Abdi-Hepa of Jerusalem.

          Abdi-Hepa is simply a West Semitic name. The theophoric element comes
          from the name of a goddess of Hittite/Hurrian origin but this goddess was
          part of the local pantheon so it is not a foreign word for these purposes.
          The 'abd' part is, of course, the common West Semitic for "slave/servant".

          > It has been argued that this name was Hurrian or Hittite as the two
          > languages and cultures were similar.

          But this is of course fallacious because the two languages are not similar
          at all. The cultures may be similar, but that is areal rather than
          cognate, and as long as Hepa was a local goddess, the name is good West
          Semitic. Foreign gods are frequently adopted by local cultures and
          religions often cross linguistic boundaries.

          <snip>

          Bob Whiting
          whiting@...



          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • driver40386
          The Hittites absolutely did survive, perhaps into the 10th century. One branch of the family ruled from Carchemish, which in turn branched out to Malatya. The
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 29, 2007
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            The Hittites absolutely did survive, perhaps into the 10th century.
            One branch of the family ruled from Carchemish, which in turn branched
            out to Malatya. The south Anatolian city-states in and around Kode
            reformed into what became Hattina to the Assyrians. See the monographs
            by Hoffner, The Last days of Khattusha, and Guterbock, Survival of the
            Hittite Dynasty, in The Crisis Years, 1992, and more recent Bryce, The
            Kingdom of the Hittites, 2005.
            Contra to our old 20th century traditions, Khatti and Carchemish did
            not succumb to any hypothetical Sea Peoples Invasion. The Hittites
            were alive and well and certainly well able to take to the field in
            battle. Hence what has been too often quoted as textual evidence of a
            Sea Peoples onslaught across Anatolia, the Medinet-Habu text, appears
            to be nothing of the sort.
            Ramses III reliefs at Medinet-Habu show he laid seige to "Tunip of
            Hatti", to the city of "Yereth" (Arvad). He is presented with a sword
            by Amun to "move against that land of Hatti". The Medinet-Habu reliefs
            also list a captive chief of Kode, and a captive chief of Hatti.
            I find it astonishing that Historians do not make reference to the
            struggle between Ramesses III and the Hittites. The old excuse that
            Ram. III must have copied his texts from those of Ram. II simply is
            not good enough.
            So yes, there may be very good reason to see vestiges of Hittite
            peoples scattered across the Levant in the 12th-11th centuries BCE.

            By this period the only remnants of the Hurrian nation were to be
            found in Mesopotamia - Hanigalbat. I think Essarhaddon is the last
            Assyrian king to mention that Hurrian state.

            Best Wishes, Jon Smyth
            Toronto, CAN


            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, David Hall <dqhall59@...> wrote:
            [edit]
            >... The Hittite culture may have endured into Assyrian times near
            Carchemesh and the upper Euphrates River into Assyrian Dynasty times
            as the Assyrians made mention of them. The Hurrian culture was not
            know to have survived the end of the Bronze Age (Wickip.).
            >
            > David Q. Hall
            > dqhall59@...
          • David Hall
            Thanks for the correction. All I can get is that Abd is slave in modern Arabic; Abdi was assumed to have meant slave in ancient West Semitic. Hepa or Heba
            Message 5 of 28 , Jul 29, 2007
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              Thanks for the correction. All I can get is that Abd is slave in modern Arabic; Abdi was assumed to have meant slave in ancient West Semitic. Hepa or Heba was a goddess as told by both Hittite and Hurrian peoples; thus it is a loan word borrowed from one or the other. The languages were usually dissimilar. The cultures were parallel inasmuch as they both had a myth(s) of Hepa, yet I was not able to show any further similarities.

              David Q. Hall

              Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...> wrote:


              Abdi is normally here written ÌR. There has been some discussion about the first part of the name, whether or not it is really West Semitic (although I personally prefer to see it as such).

              Hall's mistake is understandable when one forgets Bob's remarks about acculturation, including translation.

              Niels Peter Lemche

              -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
              Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Robert M Whiting
              Sendt: 29. juli 2007 21:16
              Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Emne: Re: Hittites in the Levant (was:"Hittites" Re: SV: [ANE-2] pulling down houses)

              On Sun, 29 Jul 2007, David Hall wrote:

              > The Hittite and Hurrian languages were similar.

              To about the same extent that Akkadian and Sumerian were similar. Like
              Sumerian and Akkadian, Hittite and Hurrian belong to completely different
              and unrelated language groups. Hittite is Indo-European. Hurrian may be
              related to Caucasian languages, but is generally considered an isolate; in
              any case, it is not Indo-European. The fact that there may be many loan
              words between the languages does not make them related any more than the
              very large number of French loan words in English makes English a Romance
              language. Languages that are in contact over a long period will come to
              have surface resemblances (these are called areal features) but will
              retain their own inherent structures.

              > The Amarna tablets included words written by Abdi-Hepa of Jerusalem.

              Abdi-Hepa is simply a West Semitic name. The theophoric element comes
              from the name of a goddess of Hittite/Hurrian origin but this goddess was
              part of the local pantheon so it is not a foreign word for these purposes.
              The 'abd' part is, of course, the common West Semitic for "slave/servant".

              > It has been argued that this name was Hurrian or Hittite as the two
              > languages and cultures were similar.

              But this is of course fallacious because the two languages are not similar
              at all. The cultures may be similar, but that is areal rather than
              cognate, and as long as Hepa was a local goddess, the name is good West
              Semitic. Foreign gods are frequently adopted by local cultures and
              religions often cross linguistic boundaries.

              <snip>

              Bob Whiting
              whiting@...

              Yahoo! Groups Links






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Niels Peter Lemche
              Dear David, Some Hebrew needed? ebed in Hebrew. The common word for a slave in West Semitic. The problem for ÌR = ebed is the presence of Hepa, a goddess of
              Message 6 of 28 , Jul 29, 2007
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                Dear David,

                Some Hebrew needed? 'ebed in Hebrew. The common word for a slave in West Semitic.

                The problem for ÌR = 'ebed is the presence of Hepa, a goddess of Hurrian origin. There are other theophoric names from the LBA with Hepa as the theophoric element, such as Hattusilis III's queen Putuhepa.

                Niels Peter Lemche


                -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af David Hall
                Sendt: 30. juli 2007 05:43
                Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Emne: Re: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa

                Thanks for the correction. All I can get is that Abd is slave in modern Arabic; Abdi was assumed to have meant slave in ancient West Semitic. Hepa or Heba was a goddess as told by both Hittite and Hurrian peoples; thus it is a loan word borrowed from one or the other. The languages were usually dissimilar. The cultures were parallel inasmuch as they both had a myth(s) of Hepa, yet I was not able to show any further similarities.

                David Q. Hall

                Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...> wrote:


                Abdi is normally here written ÌR. There has been some discussion about the first part of the name, whether or not it is really West Semitic (although I personally prefer to see it as such).

                Hall's mistake is understandable when one forgets Bob's remarks about acculturation, including translation.

                Niels Peter Lemche

                -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Robert M Whiting
                Sendt: 29. juli 2007 21:16
                Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Emne: Re: Hittites in the Levant (was:"Hittites" Re: SV: [ANE-2] pulling down houses)

                On Sun, 29 Jul 2007, David Hall wrote:

                > The Hittite and Hurrian languages were similar.

                To about the same extent that Akkadian and Sumerian were similar. Like
                Sumerian and Akkadian, Hittite and Hurrian belong to completely different
                and unrelated language groups. Hittite is Indo-European. Hurrian may be
                related to Caucasian languages, but is generally considered an isolate; in
                any case, it is not Indo-European. The fact that there may be many loan
                words between the languages does not make them related any more than the
                very large number of French loan words in English makes English a Romance
                language. Languages that are in contact over a long period will come to
                have surface resemblances (these are called areal features) but will
                retain their own inherent structures.

                > The Amarna tablets included words written by Abdi-Hepa of Jerusalem.

                Abdi-Hepa is simply a West Semitic name. The theophoric element comes
                from the name of a goddess of Hittite/Hurrian origin but this goddess was
                part of the local pantheon so it is not a foreign word for these purposes.
                The 'abd' part is, of course, the common West Semitic for "slave/servant".

                > It has been argued that this name was Hurrian or Hittite as the two
                > languages and cultures were similar.

                But this is of course fallacious because the two languages are not similar
                at all. The cultures may be similar, but that is areal rather than
                cognate, and as long as Hepa was a local goddess, the name is good West
                Semitic. Foreign gods are frequently adopted by local cultures and
                religions often cross linguistic boundaries.

                <snip>

                Bob Whiting
                whiting@...

                Yahoo! Groups Links






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • Ariel L. Szczupak
                ... ayin-bet-dalet root. the center of the semantic range is work , extending to serve, slave, worship, etc. ... Ariel. [100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto
                Message 7 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
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                  At 09:45 AM 7/30/2007, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

                  >Dear David,
                  >
                  >Some Hebrew needed? 'ebed in Hebrew. The common word for a slave in
                  >West Semitic.

                  ayin-bet-dalet root. the center of the semantic range is "work",
                  extending to serve, slave, worship, etc.


                  >The problem for ÌR = 'ebed is the presence of Hepa, a goddess of
                  >Hurrian origin. There are other theophoric names from the LBA with
                  >Hepa as the theophoric element, such as Hattusilis III's queen Putuhepa.
                  >
                  >Niels Peter Lemche
                  >
                  >-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                  >Fra: <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  >[mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af David Hall
                  >Sendt: 30. juli 2007 05:43
                  >Til: <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  >Emne: Re: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                  >
                  >Thanks for the correction. All I can get is that Abd is slave in
                  >modern Arabic; Abdi was assumed to have meant slave in ancient West
                  >Semitic. Hepa or Heba was a goddess as told by both Hittite and
                  >Hurrian peoples; thus it is a loan word borrowed from one or the
                  >other. The languages were usually dissimilar. The cultures were
                  >parallel inasmuch as they both had a myth(s) of Hepa, yet I was not
                  >able to show any further similarities.
                  >
                  >David Q. Hall
                  >
                  >Niels Peter Lemche <<mailto:npl%40teol.ku.dk>npl@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >Abdi is normally here written ÌR. There has been some discussion
                  >about the first part of the name, whether or not it is really West
                  >Semitic (although I personally prefer to see it as such).
                  >
                  >Hall's mistake is understandable when one forgets Bob's remarks
                  >about acculturation, including translation.
                  >
                  >Niels Peter Lemche
                  >
                  >-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                  >Fra: <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  >[mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Robert M Whiting
                  >Sendt: 29. juli 2007 21:16
                  >Til: <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  >Emne: Re: Hittites in the Levant (was:"Hittites" Re: SV: [ANE-2]
                  >pulling down houses)
                  >
                  >On Sun, 29 Jul 2007, David Hall wrote:
                  >
                  > > The Hittite and Hurrian languages were similar.
                  >
                  >To about the same extent that Akkadian and Sumerian were similar. Like
                  >Sumerian and Akkadian, Hittite and Hurrian belong to completely different
                  >and unrelated language groups. Hittite is Indo-European. Hurrian may be
                  >related to Caucasian languages, but is generally considered an isolate; in
                  >any case, it is not Indo-European. The fact that there may be many loan
                  >words between the languages does not make them related any more than the
                  >very large number of French loan words in English makes English a Romance
                  >language. Languages that are in contact over a long period will come to
                  >have surface resemblances (these are called areal features) but will
                  >retain their own inherent structures.
                  >
                  > > The Amarna tablets included words written by Abdi-Hepa of Jerusalem.
                  >
                  >Abdi-Hepa is simply a West Semitic name. The theophoric element comes
                  >from the name of a goddess of Hittite/Hurrian origin but this goddess was
                  >part of the local pantheon so it is not a foreign word for these purposes.
                  >The 'abd' part is, of course, the common West Semitic for "slave/servant".
                  >
                  > > It has been argued that this name was Hurrian or Hittite as the two
                  > > languages and cultures were similar.
                  >
                  >But this is of course fallacious because the two languages are not similar
                  >at all. The cultures may be similar, but that is areal rather than
                  >cognate, and as long as Hepa was a local goddess, the name is good West
                  >Semitic. Foreign gods are frequently adopted by local cultures and
                  >religions often cross linguistic boundaries.
                  >
                  ><snip>
                  >
                  >Bob Whiting
                  ><mailto:whiting%40cc.helsinki.fi>whiting@...
                  >
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >

                  Ariel.

                  [100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto ergo sum!]

                  ---
                  Ariel L. Szczupak
                  AMIS-JLM (Ricercar Ltd.)
                  POB 4707, Jerusalem, Israel 91401
                  Phone: +972-2-5619660 Fax: +972-2-5634203
                  ane.als@...
                • Bjarte Kaldhol
                  Dear List, Although Heba(t) may be rare as an element in Semitic names, it is not unique. There is a Heba-DINGIR (f) at Alalah, perhaps to be read Heba-ili and
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
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                    Dear List,



                    Although Heba(t) may be rare as an element in Semitic names, it is not
                    unique. There is a Heba-DINGIR (f) at Alalah, perhaps to be read Heba-ili
                    and not Heba-an (Heban, in which case it would be Hurrian), and a Hebat-ili
                    (f) as well as an Ili-Heba (m) are found at Emar (SCCNH 13, p. 123 f). I
                    don't think there is any problem with reading IR3-Heba as Abdi-Heba.



                    Best wishes,

                    Bjarte Kaldhol



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Stern, Richard H.
                    Dear colleagues: Isn t ebed also servant as in ebed-Yahu, the servant of YHWH? So, maybe it translates better as: servant of Hepa.
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
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                      Dear colleagues:

                      Isn't 'ebed also "servant" as in 'ebed-Yahu, the servant of YHWH? So, maybe it translates better as: servant of Hepa.

                      =====================================
                      Best regards.

                      Richard H. Stern
                      rstern@... rstern@...
                      Washington, DC 20036
                      http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                      =====================================

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Niels Peter Lemche
                      Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 2:46 AM
                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa

                      Dear David,

                      Some Hebrew needed? 'ebed in Hebrew. The common word for a slave in West Semitic.

                      The problem for ÌR = 'ebed is the presence of Hepa, a goddess of Hurrian origin. There are other theophoric names from the LBA with Hepa as the theophoric element, such as Hattusilis III's queen Putuhepa.

                      Niels Peter Lemche


                      -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                      Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af David Hall
                      Sendt: 30. juli 2007 05:43
                      Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      Emne: Re: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa

                      Thanks for the correction. All I can get is that Abd is slave in modern Arabic; Abdi was assumed to have meant slave in ancient West Semitic. Hepa or Heba was a goddess as told by both Hittite and Hurrian peoples; thus it is a loan word borrowed from one or the other. The languages were usually dissimilar. The cultures were parallel inasmuch as they both had a myth(s) of Hepa, yet I was not able to show any further similarities.

                      David Q. Hall

                      Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...> wrote:


                      Abdi is normally here written ÌR. There has been some discussion about the first part of the name, whether or not it is really West Semitic (although I personally prefer to see it as such).

                      Hall's mistake is understandable when one forgets Bob's remarks about acculturation, including translation.

                      Niels Peter Lemche

                      -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                      Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Robert M Whiting
                      Sendt: 29. juli 2007 21:16
                      Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      Emne: Re: Hittites in the Levant (was:"Hittites" Re: SV: [ANE-2] pulling down houses)

                      On Sun, 29 Jul 2007, David Hall wrote:

                      > The Hittite and Hurrian languages were similar.

                      To about the same extent that Akkadian and Sumerian were similar. Like
                      Sumerian and Akkadian, Hittite and Hurrian belong to completely different
                      and unrelated language groups. Hittite is Indo-European. Hurrian may be
                      related to Caucasian languages, but is generally considered an isolate; in
                      any case, it is not Indo-European. The fact that there may be many loan
                      words between the languages does not make them related any more than the
                      very large number of French loan words in English makes English a Romance
                      language. Languages that are in contact over a long period will come to
                      have surface resemblances (these are called areal features) but will
                      retain their own inherent structures.

                      > The Amarna tablets included words written by Abdi-Hepa of Jerusalem.

                      Abdi-Hepa is simply a West Semitic name. The theophoric element comes
                      from the name of a goddess of Hittite/Hurrian origin but this goddess was
                      part of the local pantheon so it is not a foreign word for these purposes.
                      The 'abd' part is, of course, the common West Semitic for "slave/servant".

                      > It has been argued that this name was Hurrian or Hittite as the two
                      > languages and cultures were similar.

                      But this is of course fallacious because the two languages are not similar
                      at all. The cultures may be similar, but that is areal rather than
                      cognate, and as long as Hepa was a local goddess, the name is good West
                      Semitic. Foreign gods are frequently adopted by local cultures and
                      religions often cross linguistic boundaries.

                      <snip>

                      Bob Whiting
                      whiting@...

                      Yahoo! Groups Links






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                      Yahoo! Groups Links






                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • Niels Peter Lemche
                      Basically, ebed means worker , therefore slave and servant is more or less the same. The master does not work, his subordinate -- whatever their status --
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
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                        Basically, 'ebed means 'worker', therefore slave and servant is more or less the same. The master does not work, his subordinate -- whatever their status -- does. Therefore the king is the servant of the deity in Western Asia, and everybody the servant of the king. But, as terminology is not very refined, the basic idea is that the one in power gives the order and does not work, his servant/slave/serf -- choose for yourself -- does. No reason to involve modern, western ideas. They had no unions.

                        Niels Peter Lemche



                        -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                        Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Stern, Richard H.
                        Sendt: 30. juli 2007 19:49
                        Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        Emne: RE: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa

                        Dear colleagues:

                        Isn't 'ebed also "servant" as in 'ebed-Yahu, the servant of YHWH? So, maybe it translates better as: servant of Hepa.

                        =====================================
                        Best regards.

                        Richard H. Stern
                        rstern@... rstern@...
                        Washington, DC 20036
                        http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                        =====================================
                      • Dierk van den Berg
                        Niels, I was taught by P. Lapide (former Bar Ilan) not even to think of translating ebed (worker, servant) with slave . Best Dierk van den Berg ... more or
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
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                          Niels,
                          I was taught by P. Lapide (former Bar Ilan) not even to think of
                          translating ebed (worker, servant) with 'slave'.

                          Best
                          Dierk van den Berg







                          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Basically, 'ebed means 'worker', therefore slave and servant is
                          more or less the same. The master does not work, his subordinate --
                          whatever their status -- does. Therefore the king is the servant of
                          the deity in Western Asia, and everybody the servant of the king.
                          But, as terminology is not very refined, the basic idea is that the
                          one in power gives the order and does not work, his
                          servant/slave/serf -- choose for yourself -- does. No reason to
                          involve modern, western ideas. They had no unions.
                          >
                          > Niels Peter Lemche
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                          > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                          af Stern, Richard H.
                          > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 19:49
                          > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          > Emne: RE: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                          >
                          > Dear colleagues:
                          >
                          > Isn't 'ebed also "servant" as in 'ebed-Yahu, the servant of YHWH?
                          So, maybe it translates better as: servant of Hepa.
                          >
                          > =====================================
                          > Best regards.
                          >
                          > Richard H. Stern
                          > rstern@... rstern@...
                          > Washington, DC 20036
                          > http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                          > =====================================
                          >
                        • Niels Peter Lemche
                          Well, some of the laws indicate a status of not being free. E.g. Exod 21:2ff. Niels Peter Lemche ... Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com]
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Well, some of the laws indicate a status of not being free. E.g. Exod 21:2ff.

                            Niels Peter Lemche

                            -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                            Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Dierk van den Berg
                            Sendt: 30. juli 2007 22:59
                            Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                            Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa

                            Niels,
                            I was taught by P. Lapide (former Bar Ilan) not even to think of
                            translating ebed (worker, servant) with 'slave'.

                            Best
                            Dierk van den Berg







                            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Basically, 'ebed means 'worker', therefore slave and servant is
                            more or less the same. The master does not work, his subordinate --
                            whatever their status -- does. Therefore the king is the servant of
                            the deity in Western Asia, and everybody the servant of the king.
                            But, as terminology is not very refined, the basic idea is that the
                            one in power gives the order and does not work, his
                            servant/slave/serf -- choose for yourself -- does. No reason to
                            involve modern, western ideas. They had no unions.
                            >
                            > Niels Peter Lemche
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                            > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                            af Stern, Richard H.
                            > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 19:49
                            > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                            > Emne: RE: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                            >
                            > Dear colleagues:
                            >
                            > Isn't 'ebed also "servant" as in 'ebed-Yahu, the servant of YHWH?
                            So, maybe it translates better as: servant of Hepa.
                            >
                            > =====================================
                            > Best regards.
                            >
                            > Richard H. Stern
                            > rstern@... rstern@...
                            > Washington, DC 20036
                            > http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                            > =====================================
                            >





                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                          • Dierk van den Berg
                            Well, Ex 21.2f. refers to temp. soccage, not slavery, and thus to a deror after 49 shabbetot jamim in the jobel. _Dierk van den Berg ... Exod 21:2ff. ... af
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
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                              Well, Ex 21.2f. refers to temp. soccage, not slavery, and thus to a
                              deror after 49 shabbetot jamim in the jobel.

                              _Dierk van den Berg



                              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Well, some of the laws indicate a status of not being free. E.g.
                              Exod 21:2ff.
                              >
                              > Niels Peter Lemche
                              >
                              > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                              > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                              af Dierk van den Berg
                              > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 22:59
                              > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                              > Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                              >
                              > Niels,
                              > I was taught by P. Lapide (former Bar Ilan) not even to think of
                              > translating ebed (worker, servant) with 'slave'.
                              >
                              > Best
                              > Dierk van den Berg
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Basically, 'ebed means 'worker', therefore slave and servant is
                              > more or less the same. The master does not work, his subordinate --
                              > whatever their status -- does. Therefore the king is the servant of
                              > the deity in Western Asia, and everybody the servant of the king.
                              > But, as terminology is not very refined, the basic idea is that the
                              > one in power gives the order and does not work, his
                              > servant/slave/serf -- choose for yourself -- does. No reason to
                              > involve modern, western ideas. They had no unions.
                              > >
                              > > Niels Peter Lemche
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                              > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På
                              vegne
                              > af Stern, Richard H.
                              > > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 19:49
                              > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Emne: RE: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                              > >
                              > > Dear colleagues:
                              > >
                              > > Isn't 'ebed also "servant" as in 'ebed-Yahu, the servant of
                              YHWH?
                              > So, maybe it translates better as: servant of Hepa.
                              > >
                              > > =====================================
                              > > Best regards.
                              > >
                              > > Richard H. Stern
                              > > rstern@ rstern@
                              > > Washington, DC 20036
                              > > http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                              > > =====================================
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                            • Niels Peter Lemche
                              Well, interesting suggestion. Do you have some bibliographical references? Or just free invention. PS: I wrote a couple of articles -- still quoted -- about
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
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                                Well, interesting suggestion. Do you have some bibliographical references? Or just free invention.

                                PS: I wrote a couple of articles -- still quoted -- about this in Vetus Testamentum 1975 and 1976, and JNES 1979.

                                Niels Peter Lemche



                                -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Dierk van den Berg
                                Sendt: 30. juli 2007 23:24
                                Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                Emne: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa

                                Well, Ex 21.2f. refers to temp. soccage, not slavery, and thus to a
                                deror after 49 shabbetot jamim in the jobel.

                                _Dierk van den Berg
                              • Tory Thorpe
                                Dear NPL, Are you still of the opinion that the ebed laws in the Book of the Covenant were taken over from Canaanites despite the absence of a codex in Western
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Dear NPL,
                                  Are you still of the opinion that the ebed laws in the Book of the
                                  Covenant were taken over from Canaanites despite the absence of a
                                  codex in Western Asia?

                                  Tory Thorpe


                                  On Jul 30, 2007, at 5:11 PM, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

                                  > Well, some of the laws indicate a status of not being free. E.g.
                                  > Exod 21:2ff.
                                  >
                                  > Niels Peter Lemche
                                  >
                                  > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                  > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                                  > af Dierk van den Berg
                                  > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 22:59
                                  > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                  >
                                  > Niels,
                                  > I was taught by P. Lapide (former Bar Ilan) not even to think of
                                  > translating ebed (worker, servant) with 'slave'.
                                  >
                                  > Best
                                  > Dierk van den Berg
                                  >
                                  > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Basically, 'ebed means 'worker', therefore slave and servant is
                                  > more or less the same. The master does not work, his subordinate --
                                  > whatever their status -- does. Therefore the king is the servant of
                                  > the deity in Western Asia, and everybody the servant of the king.
                                  > But, as terminology is not very refined, the basic idea is that the
                                  > one in power gives the order and does not work, his
                                  > servant/slave/serf -- choose for yourself -- does. No reason to
                                  > involve modern, western ideas. They had no unions.
                                  > >
                                  > > Niels Peter Lemche
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                  > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                                  > af Stern, Richard H.
                                  > > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 19:49
                                  > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Emne: RE: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                  > >
                                  > > Dear colleagues:
                                  > >
                                  > > Isn't 'ebed also "servant" as in 'ebed-Yahu, the servant of YHWH?
                                  > So, maybe it translates better as: servant of Hepa.
                                  > >
                                  > > =====================================
                                  > > Best regards.
                                  > >
                                  > > Richard H. Stern
                                  > > rstern@... rstern@...
                                  > > Washington, DC 20036
                                  > > http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                                  > > =====================================
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Niels Peter Lemche
                                  Dear Tory, No, the Book of Covenant belongs squarely within the Babylonian Law Tradition. And my attitude to that was formed by Kraus Geneva 1969, and
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
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                                    Dear Tory,

                                    No, the Book of Covenant belongs squarely within the Babylonian Law Tradition. And my attitude to that was formed by Kraus Geneva 1969, and confirmed by Martha Roth's introduction to her translations in the SBL Series.

                                    I wrote about the missing laws from Syria and Palestine in the Kent Law Review about ten years ago (based on a symposium at the Robbins Collection at Berkeley in 1995).

                                    Interesting ideas about Exod 21:2 ff. also in Oswald Loretz's book about the Habiru in the BZAW series.

                                    Niels Peter Lemche



                                    -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                    Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Tory Thorpe
                                    Sendt: 30. juli 2007 23:33
                                    Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                    Emne: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa

                                    Dear NPL,
                                    Are you still of the opinion that the ebed laws in the Book of the
                                    Covenant were taken over from Canaanites despite the absence of a
                                    codex in Western Asia?

                                    Tory Thorpe


                                    On Jul 30, 2007, at 5:11 PM, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

                                    > Well, some of the laws indicate a status of not being free. E.g.
                                    > Exod 21:2ff.
                                    >
                                    > Niels Peter Lemche
                                    >
                                    > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                    > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                                    > af Dierk van den Berg
                                    > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 22:59
                                    > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                    >
                                    > Niels,
                                    > I was taught by P. Lapide (former Bar Ilan) not even to think of
                                    > translating ebed (worker, servant) with 'slave'.
                                    >
                                    > Best
                                    > Dierk van den Berg
                                    >
                                    > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Basically, 'ebed means 'worker', therefore slave and servant is
                                    > more or less the same. The master does not work, his subordinate --
                                    > whatever their status -- does. Therefore the king is the servant of
                                    > the deity in Western Asia, and everybody the servant of the king.
                                    > But, as terminology is not very refined, the basic idea is that the
                                    > one in power gives the order and does not work, his
                                    > servant/slave/serf -- choose for yourself -- does. No reason to
                                    > involve modern, western ideas. They had no unions.
                                    > >
                                    > > Niels Peter Lemche
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                    > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                                    > af Stern, Richard H.
                                    > > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 19:49
                                    > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Emne: RE: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                    > >
                                    > > Dear colleagues:
                                    > >
                                    > > Isn't 'ebed also "servant" as in 'ebed-Yahu, the servant of YHWH?
                                    > So, maybe it translates better as: servant of Hepa.
                                    > >
                                    > > =====================================
                                    > > Best regards.
                                    > >
                                    > > Richard H. Stern
                                    > > rstern@... rstern@...
                                    > > Washington, DC 20036
                                    > > http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                                    > > =====================================
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  • Dierk van den Berg
                                    Release (deror) already after severn years in the shemittah acc. Ex 21.2, cf. Neh 10.32b; Is 61.2, not only in the jobel after up to 49 years. cf. Johann
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
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                                      Release (deror) already after severn years in the shemittah acc. Ex
                                      21.2, cf. Neh 10.32b; Is 61.2, not only in the jobel after up to 49
                                      years.

                                      cf. Johann Maier_Die Qumran Essener, vol III_Munich 1996, pp. 104-111

                                      Dierk v/d Berg









                                      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Well, interesting suggestion. Do you have some bibliographical
                                      references? Or just free invention.
                                      >
                                      > PS: I wrote a couple of articles -- still quoted -- about this in
                                      Vetus Testamentum 1975 and 1976, and JNES 1979.
                                      >
                                      > Niels Peter Lemche
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                      > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                                      af Dierk van den Berg
                                      > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 23:24
                                      > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Emne: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                      >
                                      > Well, Ex 21.2f. refers to temp. soccage, not slavery, and thus to a
                                      > deror after 49 shabbetot jamim in the jobel.
                                      >
                                      > _Dierk van den Berg
                                      >
                                    • Dierk van den Berg
                                      Niels, perhaps I should add P. Lapide_Ist die Bibel richtig übersetzt, vol I_Guetersloh 1996, p.65f. on Ex 21.2f. The seminar was in the early 90s, long ago.
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
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                                        Niels,

                                        perhaps I should add P. Lapide_Ist die Bibel richtig übersetzt, vol
                                        I_Guetersloh 1996, p.65f. on Ex 21.2f.

                                        The seminar was in the early 90s, long ago.

                                        _Dierk v/d Berg



                                        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Well, interesting suggestion. Do you have some bibliographical
                                        references? Or just free invention.
                                        >
                                        > PS: I wrote a couple of articles -- still quoted -- about this in
                                        Vetus Testamentum 1975 and 1976, and JNES 1979.
                                        >
                                        > Niels Peter Lemche
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                        > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                                        af Dierk van den Berg
                                        > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 23:24
                                        > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Emne: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                        >
                                        > Well, Ex 21.2f. refers to temp. soccage, not slavery, and thus to a
                                        > deror after 49 shabbetot jamim in the jobel.
                                        >
                                        > _Dierk van den Berg
                                        >
                                      • Tory Thorpe
                                        Could you mean Kraus paper in Geneva NS 8 (1960)? Not having seen your paper in the Kent Law Review, thanks for the reference, would it be correct to say, in
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Could you mean Kraus' paper in Geneva NS 8 (1960)? Not having seen
                                          your paper in the Kent Law Review, thanks for the reference, would it
                                          be correct to say, in your view, that West Semitic states in the 2nd
                                          millennium BCE derived their code of laws from the Babylonian legal
                                          tradition and Weltanschauung?

                                          Tory Thorpe


                                          On Jul 30, 2007, at 5:38 PM, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

                                          > Dear Tory,
                                          >
                                          > No, the Book of Covenant belongs squarely within the Babylonian Law
                                          > Tradition. And my attitude to that was formed by Kraus Geneva 1969,
                                          > and confirmed by Martha Roth's introduction to her translations in
                                          > the SBL Series.
                                          >
                                          > I wrote about the missing laws from Syria and Palestine in the Kent
                                          > Law Review about ten years ago (based on a symposium at the Robbins
                                          > Collection at Berkeley in 1995).
                                          >
                                          > Interesting ideas about Exod 21:2 ff. also in Oswald Loretz's book
                                          > about the Habiru in the BZAW series.
                                          >
                                          > Niels Peter Lemche
                                          >
                                          > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                          > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                                          > af Tory Thorpe
                                          > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 23:33
                                          > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Emne: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                          >
                                          > Dear NPL,
                                          > Are you still of the opinion that the ebed laws in the Book of the
                                          > Covenant were taken over from Canaanites despite the absence of a
                                          > codex in Western Asia?
                                          >
                                          > Tory Thorpe
                                          >
                                          > On Jul 30, 2007, at 5:11 PM, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > Well, some of the laws indicate a status of not being free. E.g.
                                          > > Exod 21:2ff.
                                          > >
                                          > > Niels Peter Lemche
                                          > >
                                          > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                          > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                                          > > af Dierk van den Berg
                                          > > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 22:59
                                          > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                          > >
                                          > > Niels,
                                          > > I was taught by P. Lapide (former Bar Ilan) not even to think of
                                          > > translating ebed (worker, servant) with 'slave'.
                                          > >
                                          > > Best
                                          > > Dierk van den Berg
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Basically, 'ebed means 'worker', therefore slave and servant is
                                          > > more or less the same. The master does not work, his subordinate --
                                          > > whatever their status -- does. Therefore the king is the servant of
                                          > > the deity in Western Asia, and everybody the servant of the king.
                                          > > But, as terminology is not very refined, the basic idea is that the
                                          > > one in power gives the order and does not work, his
                                          > > servant/slave/serf -- choose for yourself -- does. No reason to
                                          > > involve modern, western ideas. They had no unions.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Niels Peter Lemche
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                          > > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                                          > > af Stern, Richard H.
                                          > > > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 19:49
                                          > > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > Emne: RE: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Dear colleagues:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Isn't 'ebed also "servant" as in 'ebed-Yahu, the servant of YHWH?
                                          > > So, maybe it translates better as: servant of Hepa.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > =====================================
                                          > > > Best regards.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Richard H. Stern
                                          > > > rstern@... rstern@...
                                          > > > Washington, DC 20036
                                          > > > http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                                          > > > =====================================
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >



                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Niels Peter Lemche
                                          No, they probably did not care much about written law. Then there is the question of the status of the Mesopotamian law tradition. I will suggest that you look
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
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                                            No, they probably did not care much about written law. Then there is the question of the status of the Mesopotamian law tradition. I will suggest that you look up Martha Roth's essay, and maybe some of the Assyriologists heremay step in.

                                            Niels Peter Lemche



                                            -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                            Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Tory Thorpe
                                            Sendt: 31. juli 2007 00:31
                                            Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                            Emne: Re: SV: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa

                                            Could you mean Kraus' paper in Geneva NS 8 (1960)? Not having seen
                                            your paper in the Kent Law Review, thanks for the reference, would it
                                            be correct to say, in your view, that West Semitic states in the 2nd
                                            millennium BCE derived their code of laws from the Babylonian legal
                                            tradition and Weltanschauung?

                                            Tory Thorpe


                                            On Jul 30, 2007, at 5:38 PM, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

                                            > Dear Tory,
                                            >
                                            > No, the Book of Covenant belongs squarely within the Babylonian Law
                                            > Tradition. And my attitude to that was formed by Kraus Geneva 1969,
                                            > and confirmed by Martha Roth's introduction to her translations in
                                            > the SBL Series.
                                            >
                                            > I wrote about the missing laws from Syria and Palestine in the Kent
                                            > Law Review about ten years ago (based on a symposium at the Robbins
                                            > Collection at Berkeley in 1995).
                                            >
                                            > Interesting ideas about Exod 21:2 ff. also in Oswald Loretz's book
                                            > about the Habiru in the BZAW series.
                                            >
                                            > Niels Peter Lemche
                                            >
                                          • Niels Peter Lemche
                                            OK, I was afraid that you were quoting something important relating to the question. I suppose that you read some of the titles directly relevant to the
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
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                                              OK, I was afraid that you were quoting something important relating to the question.

                                              I suppose that you read some of the titles directly relevant to the question. Some of this is old, I know, but still worth reading. You could start with my own articles which at least try to explain the relations between Exod 21:2-11; Leviticus 25; Deuteronomy 15; Jeremiah 34, but also has a saying about Nehemiah. Then Loretz is good and very different, and something about the andurarum -- misharum tradition in the ANE.

                                              It's called slavery because of debts, you know.

                                              The Chicago kent Law Review is: Justice in Western Asia in Antiquity, or: Why No Laws Were Needed!, KLR 70 (1995), 1695-1716.

                                              More recent on this John Van Seters, A Law Book for the Diaspora: Revision in the Study of the Covenant Code (Oxford University, 2003), and the ongoing debate between him and Otto and Jackson (his reply to them in the last issue of SJOT).

                                              Niels Peter Lemche



                                              -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                              Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Dierk van den Berg
                                              Sendt: 30. juli 2007 23:57
                                              Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                              Emne: Re: SV: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa

                                              Release (deror) already after severn years in the shemittah acc. Ex
                                              21.2, cf. Neh 10.32b; Is 61.2, not only in the jobel after up to 49
                                              years.

                                              cf. Johann Maier_Die Qumran Essener, vol III_Munich 1996, pp. 104-111

                                              Dierk v/d Berg









                                              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Well, interesting suggestion. Do you have some bibliographical
                                              references? Or just free invention.
                                              >
                                              > PS: I wrote a couple of articles -- still quoted -- about this in
                                              Vetus Testamentum 1975 and 1976, and JNES 1979.
                                              >
                                              > Niels Peter Lemche
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                              > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                                              af Dierk van den Berg
                                              > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 23:24
                                              > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Emne: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                              >
                                              > Well, Ex 21.2f. refers to temp. soccage, not slavery, and thus to a
                                              > deror after 49 shabbetot jamim in the jobel.
                                              >
                                              > _Dierk van den Berg
                                              >





                                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            • George F Somsel
                                              It is more correctly indentureship, not socage. george gfsomsel Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Jul 31, 2007
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                                                It is more correctly indentureship, not socage.

                                                george
                                                gfsomsel

                                                Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                                                learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                                defend the truth till death.

                                                - Jan Hus
                                                _________



                                                ----- Original Message ----
                                                From: Dierk van den Berg <haGalil@...>
                                                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 4:23:36 PM
                                                Subject: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa

                                                Well, Ex 21.2f. refers to temp. soccage, not slavery, and thus to a
                                                deror after 49 shabbetot jamim in the jobel.

                                                _Dierk van den Berg

                                                --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Well, some of the laws indicate a status of not being free. E.g.
                                                Exod 21:2ff.
                                                >
                                                > Niels Peter Lemche
                                                >
                                                > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-- ---
                                                > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. com] På vegne
                                                af Dierk van den Berg
                                                > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 22:59
                                                > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                                                > Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                                >
                                                > Niels,
                                                > I was taught by P. Lapide (former Bar Ilan) not even to think of
                                                > translating ebed (worker, servant) with 'slave'.
                                                >
                                                > Best
                                                > Dierk van den Berg
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Basically, 'ebed means 'worker', therefore slave and servant is
                                                > more or less the same. The master does not work, his subordinate --
                                                > whatever their status -- does. Therefore the king is the servant of
                                                > the deity in Western Asia, and everybody the servant of the king.
                                                > But, as terminology is not very refined, the basic idea is that the
                                                > one in power gives the order and does not work, his
                                                > servant/slave/ serf -- choose for yourself -- does. No reason to
                                                > involve modern, western ideas. They had no unions.
                                                > >
                                                > > Niels Peter Lemche
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-- ---
                                                > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. com] På
                                                vegne
                                                > af Stern, Richard H.
                                                > > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 19:49
                                                > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                                                > > Emne: RE: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                                > >
                                                > > Dear colleagues:
                                                > >
                                                > > Isn't 'ebed also "servant" as in 'ebed-Yahu, the servant of
                                                YHWH?
                                                > So, maybe it translates better as: servant of Hepa.
                                                > >
                                                > > ============ ========= ========= =======
                                                > > Best regards.
                                                > >
                                                > > Richard H. Stern
                                                > > rstern@ rstern@
                                                > > Washington, DC 20036
                                                > > http://docs. law.gwu.edu/ facweb/claw/ rhs1.htm
                                                > > ============ ========= ========= =======
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >






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                                              • Dierk van den Berg
                                                Well, I will read the articles mentioned. Thanks. Appraisal later, not before. And I hope you have read the articles I have mentioned. Nevertheless it is still
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Jul 31, 2007
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                                                  Well, I will read the articles mentioned. Thanks. Appraisal later,
                                                  not before. And I hope you have read the articles I have mentioned.

                                                  Nevertheless it is still socage IMO due to the forced release from
                                                  the debris, you know.That's something unkommon in slaveholder
                                                  societies.

                                                  Dierk van den Berg



                                                  --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > OK, I was afraid that you were quoting something important relating
                                                  to the question.
                                                  >
                                                  > I suppose that you read some of the titles directly relevant to the
                                                  question. Some of this is old, I know, but still worth reading. You
                                                  could start with my own articles which at least try to explain the
                                                  relations between Exod 21:2-11; Leviticus 25; Deuteronomy 15;
                                                  Jeremiah 34, but also has a saying about Nehemiah. Then Loretz is
                                                  good and very different, and something about the andurarum --
                                                  misharum tradition in the ANE.
                                                  >
                                                  > It's called slavery because of debts, you know.
                                                  >
                                                  > The Chicago kent Law Review is: Justice in Western Asia in
                                                  Antiquity, or: Why No Laws Were Needed!, KLR 70 (1995), 1695-1716.
                                                  >
                                                  > More recent on this John Van Seters, A Law Book for the Diaspora:
                                                  Revision in the Study of the Covenant Code (Oxford University, 2003),
                                                  and the ongoing debate between him and Otto and Jackson (his reply to
                                                  them in the last issue of SJOT).
                                                  >
                                                  > Niels Peter Lemche
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                                  > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                                                  af Dierk van den Berg
                                                  > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 23:57
                                                  > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Emne: Re: SV: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                                  >
                                                  > Release (deror) already after severn years in the shemittah acc. Ex
                                                  > 21.2, cf. Neh 10.32b; Is 61.2, not only in the jobel after up to 49
                                                  > years.
                                                  >
                                                  > cf. Johann Maier_Die Qumran Essener, vol III_Munich 1996, pp. 104-
                                                  111
                                                  >
                                                  > Dierk v/d Berg
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Well, interesting suggestion. Do you have some bibliographical
                                                  > references? Or just free invention.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > PS: I wrote a couple of articles -- still quoted -- about this in
                                                  > Vetus Testamentum 1975 and 1976, and JNES 1979.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Niels Peter Lemche
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                                  > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På
                                                  vegne
                                                  > af Dierk van den Berg
                                                  > > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 23:24
                                                  > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > Emne: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Well, Ex 21.2f. refers to temp. soccage, not slavery, and thus to
                                                  a
                                                  > > deror after 49 shabbetot jamim in the jobel.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > _Dierk van den Berg
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  >
                                                • Ariel L. Szczupak
                                                  ... I just recalled a beautiful example of the semantic range of the root. Num 4:47 has, about what was done in the tabernacle, ... la avod avodat avoda
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Jul 31, 2007
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                                                    At 10:51 AM 7/30/2007, Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:
                                                    >At 09:45 AM 7/30/2007, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >>Dear David,
                                                    >>
                                                    >>Some Hebrew needed? 'ebed in Hebrew. The common word for a slave in
                                                    >>West Semitic.
                                                    >
                                                    >ayin-bet-dalet root. the center of the semantic range is "work",
                                                    >extending to serve, slave, worship, etc.

                                                    I just recalled a beautiful example of the semantic range of the
                                                    root. Num 4:47 has, about what was done in the tabernacle, "...
                                                    la'avod 'avodat 'avoda ve'avodat masa ...". [KJV translates "do the
                                                    service of the ministry, and the service of the burden" and NAS
                                                    translates "do the work of service and the work of carrying"]



                                                    Ariel.

                                                    [100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto ergo sum!]

                                                    ---
                                                    Ariel L. Szczupak
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                                                    POB 4707, Jerusalem, Israel 91401
                                                    Phone: +972-2-5619660 Fax: +972-2-5634203
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