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Hittites in the Levant (was:"Hittites" Re: SV: [ANE-2] pulling down houses)

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  • driver40386
    ... From a trading perspective, that is the comings and goings of traders between Cilicia, Cyprus, Phoenicia & Palestine from the 16th century BCE to the 12th.
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 28, 2007
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      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "E. Adams" <nyokabi@...> wrote:

      > PS: as to the ancestral language of Urijah the Hethite, I have
      > long wondered if he might not be a descendant of the men of
      > URU Kurustama, "men of Khatti", who were sent to Egypt
      > (or Egyptian territory in S. Syria or Palestine) in the 15th c.?
      > Probably they were send as mercenaries or as hostage/ colons
      > to help keep the peace between Egypt and Hatti-- unless we
      > fall back on the idea that Egyptians wanted Anatolian
      > metallurgists;...

      From a trading perspective, that is the comings and goings of traders
      between Cilicia, Cyprus, Phoenicia & Palestine from the 16th century
      BCE to the 12th. I don't think we need to indicate any specific time
      period for the appearance of Anatolians (Hittites?) in the Levant to
      satisfy the Bible. That said, I suspect there is one period that has
      gone completely unnoticed because of our continued acceptance of late
      19th century traditions.

      Egyptian inscriptions have been telling us of one sure period when
      south Anatolians did descend in force into the Levant. The
      inscriptions of both Merneptah and Ramesses III who mention the
      advances of such peoples as the Tursha, (Tarsus), Denyen (Adana), &
      Weshesh (Issus), all city-states within Kode.
      The Medinet-Habu texts did refer to restless northerners but rather
      than offering a list of sites destroyed by any hypothetical Sea
      Peoples, we should be reading; "no-one could stand before their arms,
      Khatti, Kode, Carchemish, Arvad (not Arzawa) & Alishaya" etc, as
      Ramesses III facing a genuine Hittite alliance.

      The above named states, with the exception of Alishaya, were also part
      of the great Hittite alliance against Ramesses II at Kadesh, so it
      seems to me here, at a time just prior to the arrival of Dever's
      proto-Israelites, we see a very strong potential for the incursion of
      Hittite (south Anatolian) peoples into the Levant. Hence, remnants of
      the Khetha are already present when the Israelites spread themselves
      across a devastated Canaan.

      Regards, Jon Smyth
      Toronto, CAN
    • arenmaeir
      I suggest you take a look at Itamar Singer s article Hittites in the Bible Revisited in the A. Mazar Fs (edited by yours truly and P. de Miroschedji). It is
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 28, 2007
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        I suggest you take a look at Itamar Singer's article "Hittites in the
        Bible Revisited" in the A. Mazar Fs (edited by yours truly and P. de
        Miroschedji). It is an excellent overview and state of the art
        assessment of related issues.

        Aren Maeir
      • driver40386
        ... Many thanks for the reference, yes Bryce (2005) commented that Singer sees a conclusive connection between the Biblical Hittites and the Neo-Hittites of
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 28, 2007
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          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "arenmaeir" <maeira@...> wrote:
          >
          > I suggest you take a look at Itamar Singer's article "Hittites in the
          > Bible Revisited" in the A. Mazar Fs (edited by yours truly and P. de
          > Miroschedji). It is an excellent overview and state of the art
          > assessment of related issues.

          Many thanks for the reference, yes Bryce (2005) commented that Singer
          sees a conclusive connection between the Biblical Hittites and the
          Neo-Hittites of Syria and southern Anatolia. Even so, that still
          leaves open the question of "how so?".
          Much would be gained by setting aside the failed Sea Peoples Invasion
          hypothesis and look more closely at the coastal peoples already
          resident from Cilicia down to the Levantine coast.

          I found it particularly encouraging that Singer rejects Astour's
          interpretation of CTH 125 (KUB 26.33iii 4-9), as Assyria is nowhere
          mentioned in the text, though Egypt is.
          Assyria as the enemy of Arnuwanda III is pure conjecture by Astour. It
          is though a sad situation that the text provides no clear indication
          what role Egypt played as possibly the enemy that Arnuwandas was
          unable to withstand.

          Best Wishes, Jon Smyth
          Toronto, CAN
        • David Hall
          The Hittite and Hurrian languages were similar. The Amarna tablets included words written by Abdi-Hepa of Jerusalem. It has been argued that this name was
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 29, 2007
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            The Hittite and Hurrian languages were similar. The Amarna tablets included words written by Abdi-Hepa of Jerusalem. It has been argued that this name was Hurrian or Hittite as the two languages and cultures were similar. The Hurrian culture was found in Alalakh near the Syrian coast in the 18th cent. BCE. The Hittite culture was displacing the Hurrian culture in Syria during the Amarna age. About the time of the Amarna tablets were the tablets of Nuzi near Kirkuk, Iraq containing Hurrian forms. The Hurrians seem to have been dispersed by the 12th century. The Hittite culture may have endured into Assyrian times near Carchemesh and the upper Euphrates River into Assyrian Dynasty times as the Assyrians made mention of them. The Hurrian culture was not know to have survived the end of the Bronze Age (Wickip.).

            David Q. Hall
            dqhall59@...



            driver40386 <driver40386@...> wrote:
            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "arenmaeir" <maeira@...> wrote:
            >
            > I suggest you take a look at Itamar Singer's article "Hittites in the
            > Bible Revisited" in the A. Mazar Fs (edited by yours truly and P. de
            > Miroschedji). It is an excellent overview and state of the art
            > assessment of related issues.

            Many thanks for the reference, yes Bryce (2005) commented that Singer
            sees a conclusive connection between the Biblical Hittites and the
            Neo-Hittites of Syria and southern Anatolia. Even so, that still
            leaves open the question of "how so?".
            Much would be gained by setting aside the failed Sea Peoples Invasion
            hypothesis and look more closely at the coastal peoples already
            resident from Cilicia down to the Levantine coast.

            I found it particularly encouraging that Singer rejects Astour's
            interpretation of CTH 125 (KUB 26.33iii 4-9), as Assyria is nowhere
            mentioned in the text, though Egypt is.
            Assyria as the enemy of Arnuwanda III is pure conjecture by Astour. It
            is though a sad situation that the text provides no clear indication
            what role Egypt played as possibly the enemy that Arnuwandas was
            unable to withstand.

            Best Wishes, Jon Smyth
            Toronto, CAN






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Peter T. Daniels
            The Hittite and Hurrian languages are not similar. Hittite is Indo-European. Hurrian is related to no known language other than Urartian. Do not cite wikipedia
            Message 5 of 28 , Jul 29, 2007
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              The Hittite and Hurrian languages are not similar.

              Hittite is Indo-European.

              Hurrian is related to no known language other than Urartian.

              Do not cite wikipedia in a scholarly forum.
              --
              Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...

              ----- Original Message ----
              From: David Hall <dqhall59@...>
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 1:42:59 PM
              Subject: Re: Hittites in the Levant (was:"Hittites" Re: SV: [ANE-2] pulling down houses)

              The Hittite and Hurrian languages were similar. The Amarna tablets included words written by Abdi-Hepa of Jerusalem. It has been argued that this name was Hurrian or Hittite as the two languages and cultures were similar. The Hurrian culture was found in Alalakh near the Syrian coast in the 18th cent. BCE. The Hittite culture was displacing the Hurrian culture in Syria during the Amarna age. About the time of the Amarna tablets were the tablets of Nuzi near Kirkuk, Iraq containing Hurrian forms. The Hurrians seem to have been dispersed by the 12th century. The Hittite culture may have endured into Assyrian times near Carchemesh and the upper Euphrates River into Assyrian Dynasty times as the Assyrians made mention of them. The Hurrian culture was not know to have survived the end of the Bronze Age (Wickip.).
            • Robert M Whiting
              ... To about the same extent that Akkadian and Sumerian were similar. Like Sumerian and Akkadian, Hittite and Hurrian belong to completely different and
              Message 6 of 28 , Jul 29, 2007
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                On Sun, 29 Jul 2007, David Hall wrote:

                > The Hittite and Hurrian languages were similar.

                To about the same extent that Akkadian and Sumerian were similar. Like
                Sumerian and Akkadian, Hittite and Hurrian belong to completely different
                and unrelated language groups. Hittite is Indo-European. Hurrian may be
                related to Caucasian languages, but is generally considered an isolate; in
                any case, it is not Indo-European. The fact that there may be many loan
                words between the languages does not make them related any more than the
                very large number of French loan words in English makes English a Romance
                language. Languages that are in contact over a long period will come to
                have surface resemblances (these are called areal features) but will
                retain their own inherent structures.

                > The Amarna tablets included words written by Abdi-Hepa of Jerusalem.

                Abdi-Hepa is simply a West Semitic name. The theophoric element comes
                from the name of a goddess of Hittite/Hurrian origin; but this goddess was
                part of the local pantheon so it is not a foreign word for these purposes.
                The 'abd' part is, of course, the common West Semitic for "slave/servant".

                > It has been argued that this name was Hurrian or Hittite as the two
                > languages and cultures were similar.

                But this is of course fallacious because the two languages are not similar
                at all. The cultures may be similar, but that is areal rather than
                cognate, and as long as Hepa was a local goddess, the name is good West
                Semitic. Foreign gods are frequently adopted by local cultures and
                religions often cross linguistic boundaries.

                <snip>

                Bob Whiting
                whiting@...
              • Niels Peter Lemche
                Abdi is normally here written ÌR. There has been some discussion about the first part of the name, whether or not it is really West Semitic (although I
                Message 7 of 28 , Jul 29, 2007
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                  Abdi is normally here written ÌR. There has been some discussion about the first part of the name, whether or not it is really West Semitic (although I personally prefer to see it as such).

                  Hall's mistake is understandable when one forgets Bob's remarks about acculturation, including translation.

                  Niels Peter Lemche


                  -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                  Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Robert M Whiting
                  Sendt: 29. juli 2007 21:16
                  Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Emne: Re: Hittites in the Levant (was:"Hittites" Re: SV: [ANE-2] pulling down houses)

                  On Sun, 29 Jul 2007, David Hall wrote:

                  > The Hittite and Hurrian languages were similar.

                  To about the same extent that Akkadian and Sumerian were similar. Like
                  Sumerian and Akkadian, Hittite and Hurrian belong to completely different
                  and unrelated language groups. Hittite is Indo-European. Hurrian may be
                  related to Caucasian languages, but is generally considered an isolate; in
                  any case, it is not Indo-European. The fact that there may be many loan
                  words between the languages does not make them related any more than the
                  very large number of French loan words in English makes English a Romance
                  language. Languages that are in contact over a long period will come to
                  have surface resemblances (these are called areal features) but will
                  retain their own inherent structures.

                  > The Amarna tablets included words written by Abdi-Hepa of Jerusalem.

                  Abdi-Hepa is simply a West Semitic name. The theophoric element comes
                  from the name of a goddess of Hittite/Hurrian origin but this goddess was
                  part of the local pantheon so it is not a foreign word for these purposes.
                  The 'abd' part is, of course, the common West Semitic for "slave/servant".

                  > It has been argued that this name was Hurrian or Hittite as the two
                  > languages and cultures were similar.

                  But this is of course fallacious because the two languages are not similar
                  at all. The cultures may be similar, but that is areal rather than
                  cognate, and as long as Hepa was a local goddess, the name is good West
                  Semitic. Foreign gods are frequently adopted by local cultures and
                  religions often cross linguistic boundaries.

                  <snip>

                  Bob Whiting
                  whiting@...



                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • driver40386
                  The Hittites absolutely did survive, perhaps into the 10th century. One branch of the family ruled from Carchemish, which in turn branched out to Malatya. The
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jul 29, 2007
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                    The Hittites absolutely did survive, perhaps into the 10th century.
                    One branch of the family ruled from Carchemish, which in turn branched
                    out to Malatya. The south Anatolian city-states in and around Kode
                    reformed into what became Hattina to the Assyrians. See the monographs
                    by Hoffner, The Last days of Khattusha, and Guterbock, Survival of the
                    Hittite Dynasty, in The Crisis Years, 1992, and more recent Bryce, The
                    Kingdom of the Hittites, 2005.
                    Contra to our old 20th century traditions, Khatti and Carchemish did
                    not succumb to any hypothetical Sea Peoples Invasion. The Hittites
                    were alive and well and certainly well able to take to the field in
                    battle. Hence what has been too often quoted as textual evidence of a
                    Sea Peoples onslaught across Anatolia, the Medinet-Habu text, appears
                    to be nothing of the sort.
                    Ramses III reliefs at Medinet-Habu show he laid seige to "Tunip of
                    Hatti", to the city of "Yereth" (Arvad). He is presented with a sword
                    by Amun to "move against that land of Hatti". The Medinet-Habu reliefs
                    also list a captive chief of Kode, and a captive chief of Hatti.
                    I find it astonishing that Historians do not make reference to the
                    struggle between Ramesses III and the Hittites. The old excuse that
                    Ram. III must have copied his texts from those of Ram. II simply is
                    not good enough.
                    So yes, there may be very good reason to see vestiges of Hittite
                    peoples scattered across the Levant in the 12th-11th centuries BCE.

                    By this period the only remnants of the Hurrian nation were to be
                    found in Mesopotamia - Hanigalbat. I think Essarhaddon is the last
                    Assyrian king to mention that Hurrian state.

                    Best Wishes, Jon Smyth
                    Toronto, CAN


                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, David Hall <dqhall59@...> wrote:
                    [edit]
                    >... The Hittite culture may have endured into Assyrian times near
                    Carchemesh and the upper Euphrates River into Assyrian Dynasty times
                    as the Assyrians made mention of them. The Hurrian culture was not
                    know to have survived the end of the Bronze Age (Wickip.).
                    >
                    > David Q. Hall
                    > dqhall59@...
                  • David Hall
                    Thanks for the correction. All I can get is that Abd is slave in modern Arabic; Abdi was assumed to have meant slave in ancient West Semitic. Hepa or Heba
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jul 29, 2007
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                      Thanks for the correction. All I can get is that Abd is slave in modern Arabic; Abdi was assumed to have meant slave in ancient West Semitic. Hepa or Heba was a goddess as told by both Hittite and Hurrian peoples; thus it is a loan word borrowed from one or the other. The languages were usually dissimilar. The cultures were parallel inasmuch as they both had a myth(s) of Hepa, yet I was not able to show any further similarities.

                      David Q. Hall

                      Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...> wrote:


                      Abdi is normally here written ÌR. There has been some discussion about the first part of the name, whether or not it is really West Semitic (although I personally prefer to see it as such).

                      Hall's mistake is understandable when one forgets Bob's remarks about acculturation, including translation.

                      Niels Peter Lemche

                      -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                      Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Robert M Whiting
                      Sendt: 29. juli 2007 21:16
                      Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      Emne: Re: Hittites in the Levant (was:"Hittites" Re: SV: [ANE-2] pulling down houses)

                      On Sun, 29 Jul 2007, David Hall wrote:

                      > The Hittite and Hurrian languages were similar.

                      To about the same extent that Akkadian and Sumerian were similar. Like
                      Sumerian and Akkadian, Hittite and Hurrian belong to completely different
                      and unrelated language groups. Hittite is Indo-European. Hurrian may be
                      related to Caucasian languages, but is generally considered an isolate; in
                      any case, it is not Indo-European. The fact that there may be many loan
                      words between the languages does not make them related any more than the
                      very large number of French loan words in English makes English a Romance
                      language. Languages that are in contact over a long period will come to
                      have surface resemblances (these are called areal features) but will
                      retain their own inherent structures.

                      > The Amarna tablets included words written by Abdi-Hepa of Jerusalem.

                      Abdi-Hepa is simply a West Semitic name. The theophoric element comes
                      from the name of a goddess of Hittite/Hurrian origin but this goddess was
                      part of the local pantheon so it is not a foreign word for these purposes.
                      The 'abd' part is, of course, the common West Semitic for "slave/servant".

                      > It has been argued that this name was Hurrian or Hittite as the two
                      > languages and cultures were similar.

                      But this is of course fallacious because the two languages are not similar
                      at all. The cultures may be similar, but that is areal rather than
                      cognate, and as long as Hepa was a local goddess, the name is good West
                      Semitic. Foreign gods are frequently adopted by local cultures and
                      religions often cross linguistic boundaries.

                      <snip>

                      Bob Whiting
                      whiting@...

                      Yahoo! Groups Links






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Niels Peter Lemche
                      Dear David, Some Hebrew needed? ebed in Hebrew. The common word for a slave in West Semitic. The problem for ÌR = ebed is the presence of Hepa, a goddess of
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jul 29, 2007
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                        Dear David,

                        Some Hebrew needed? 'ebed in Hebrew. The common word for a slave in West Semitic.

                        The problem for ÌR = 'ebed is the presence of Hepa, a goddess of Hurrian origin. There are other theophoric names from the LBA with Hepa as the theophoric element, such as Hattusilis III's queen Putuhepa.

                        Niels Peter Lemche


                        -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                        Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af David Hall
                        Sendt: 30. juli 2007 05:43
                        Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        Emne: Re: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa

                        Thanks for the correction. All I can get is that Abd is slave in modern Arabic; Abdi was assumed to have meant slave in ancient West Semitic. Hepa or Heba was a goddess as told by both Hittite and Hurrian peoples; thus it is a loan word borrowed from one or the other. The languages were usually dissimilar. The cultures were parallel inasmuch as they both had a myth(s) of Hepa, yet I was not able to show any further similarities.

                        David Q. Hall

                        Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...> wrote:


                        Abdi is normally here written ÌR. There has been some discussion about the first part of the name, whether or not it is really West Semitic (although I personally prefer to see it as such).

                        Hall's mistake is understandable when one forgets Bob's remarks about acculturation, including translation.

                        Niels Peter Lemche

                        -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                        Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Robert M Whiting
                        Sendt: 29. juli 2007 21:16
                        Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        Emne: Re: Hittites in the Levant (was:"Hittites" Re: SV: [ANE-2] pulling down houses)

                        On Sun, 29 Jul 2007, David Hall wrote:

                        > The Hittite and Hurrian languages were similar.

                        To about the same extent that Akkadian and Sumerian were similar. Like
                        Sumerian and Akkadian, Hittite and Hurrian belong to completely different
                        and unrelated language groups. Hittite is Indo-European. Hurrian may be
                        related to Caucasian languages, but is generally considered an isolate; in
                        any case, it is not Indo-European. The fact that there may be many loan
                        words between the languages does not make them related any more than the
                        very large number of French loan words in English makes English a Romance
                        language. Languages that are in contact over a long period will come to
                        have surface resemblances (these are called areal features) but will
                        retain their own inherent structures.

                        > The Amarna tablets included words written by Abdi-Hepa of Jerusalem.

                        Abdi-Hepa is simply a West Semitic name. The theophoric element comes
                        from the name of a goddess of Hittite/Hurrian origin but this goddess was
                        part of the local pantheon so it is not a foreign word for these purposes.
                        The 'abd' part is, of course, the common West Semitic for "slave/servant".

                        > It has been argued that this name was Hurrian or Hittite as the two
                        > languages and cultures were similar.

                        But this is of course fallacious because the two languages are not similar
                        at all. The cultures may be similar, but that is areal rather than
                        cognate, and as long as Hepa was a local goddess, the name is good West
                        Semitic. Foreign gods are frequently adopted by local cultures and
                        religions often cross linguistic boundaries.

                        <snip>

                        Bob Whiting
                        whiting@...

                        Yahoo! Groups Links






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                      • Ariel L. Szczupak
                        ... ayin-bet-dalet root. the center of the semantic range is work , extending to serve, slave, worship, etc. ... Ariel. [100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
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                          At 09:45 AM 7/30/2007, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

                          >Dear David,
                          >
                          >Some Hebrew needed? 'ebed in Hebrew. The common word for a slave in
                          >West Semitic.

                          ayin-bet-dalet root. the center of the semantic range is "work",
                          extending to serve, slave, worship, etc.


                          >The problem for ÌR = 'ebed is the presence of Hepa, a goddess of
                          >Hurrian origin. There are other theophoric names from the LBA with
                          >Hepa as the theophoric element, such as Hattusilis III's queen Putuhepa.
                          >
                          >Niels Peter Lemche
                          >
                          >-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                          >Fra: <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          >[mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af David Hall
                          >Sendt: 30. juli 2007 05:43
                          >Til: <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          >Emne: Re: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                          >
                          >Thanks for the correction. All I can get is that Abd is slave in
                          >modern Arabic; Abdi was assumed to have meant slave in ancient West
                          >Semitic. Hepa or Heba was a goddess as told by both Hittite and
                          >Hurrian peoples; thus it is a loan word borrowed from one or the
                          >other. The languages were usually dissimilar. The cultures were
                          >parallel inasmuch as they both had a myth(s) of Hepa, yet I was not
                          >able to show any further similarities.
                          >
                          >David Q. Hall
                          >
                          >Niels Peter Lemche <<mailto:npl%40teol.ku.dk>npl@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >Abdi is normally here written ÌR. There has been some discussion
                          >about the first part of the name, whether or not it is really West
                          >Semitic (although I personally prefer to see it as such).
                          >
                          >Hall's mistake is understandable when one forgets Bob's remarks
                          >about acculturation, including translation.
                          >
                          >Niels Peter Lemche
                          >
                          >-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                          >Fra: <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          >[mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Robert M Whiting
                          >Sendt: 29. juli 2007 21:16
                          >Til: <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          >Emne: Re: Hittites in the Levant (was:"Hittites" Re: SV: [ANE-2]
                          >pulling down houses)
                          >
                          >On Sun, 29 Jul 2007, David Hall wrote:
                          >
                          > > The Hittite and Hurrian languages were similar.
                          >
                          >To about the same extent that Akkadian and Sumerian were similar. Like
                          >Sumerian and Akkadian, Hittite and Hurrian belong to completely different
                          >and unrelated language groups. Hittite is Indo-European. Hurrian may be
                          >related to Caucasian languages, but is generally considered an isolate; in
                          >any case, it is not Indo-European. The fact that there may be many loan
                          >words between the languages does not make them related any more than the
                          >very large number of French loan words in English makes English a Romance
                          >language. Languages that are in contact over a long period will come to
                          >have surface resemblances (these are called areal features) but will
                          >retain their own inherent structures.
                          >
                          > > The Amarna tablets included words written by Abdi-Hepa of Jerusalem.
                          >
                          >Abdi-Hepa is simply a West Semitic name. The theophoric element comes
                          >from the name of a goddess of Hittite/Hurrian origin but this goddess was
                          >part of the local pantheon so it is not a foreign word for these purposes.
                          >The 'abd' part is, of course, the common West Semitic for "slave/servant".
                          >
                          > > It has been argued that this name was Hurrian or Hittite as the two
                          > > languages and cultures were similar.
                          >
                          >But this is of course fallacious because the two languages are not similar
                          >at all. The cultures may be similar, but that is areal rather than
                          >cognate, and as long as Hepa was a local goddess, the name is good West
                          >Semitic. Foreign gods are frequently adopted by local cultures and
                          >religions often cross linguistic boundaries.
                          >
                          ><snip>
                          >
                          >Bob Whiting
                          ><mailto:whiting%40cc.helsinki.fi>whiting@...
                          >
                          >Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >

                          Ariel.

                          [100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto ergo sum!]

                          ---
                          Ariel L. Szczupak
                          AMIS-JLM (Ricercar Ltd.)
                          POB 4707, Jerusalem, Israel 91401
                          Phone: +972-2-5619660 Fax: +972-2-5634203
                          ane.als@...
                        • Bjarte Kaldhol
                          Dear List, Although Heba(t) may be rare as an element in Semitic names, it is not unique. There is a Heba-DINGIR (f) at Alalah, perhaps to be read Heba-ili and
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
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                            Dear List,



                            Although Heba(t) may be rare as an element in Semitic names, it is not
                            unique. There is a Heba-DINGIR (f) at Alalah, perhaps to be read Heba-ili
                            and not Heba-an (Heban, in which case it would be Hurrian), and a Hebat-ili
                            (f) as well as an Ili-Heba (m) are found at Emar (SCCNH 13, p. 123 f). I
                            don't think there is any problem with reading IR3-Heba as Abdi-Heba.



                            Best wishes,

                            Bjarte Kaldhol



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Stern, Richard H.
                            Dear colleagues: Isn t ebed also servant as in ebed-Yahu, the servant of YHWH? So, maybe it translates better as: servant of Hepa.
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
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                              Dear colleagues:

                              Isn't 'ebed also "servant" as in 'ebed-Yahu, the servant of YHWH? So, maybe it translates better as: servant of Hepa.

                              =====================================
                              Best regards.

                              Richard H. Stern
                              rstern@... rstern@...
                              Washington, DC 20036
                              http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                              =====================================

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Niels Peter Lemche
                              Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 2:46 AM
                              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa

                              Dear David,

                              Some Hebrew needed? 'ebed in Hebrew. The common word for a slave in West Semitic.

                              The problem for ÌR = 'ebed is the presence of Hepa, a goddess of Hurrian origin. There are other theophoric names from the LBA with Hepa as the theophoric element, such as Hattusilis III's queen Putuhepa.

                              Niels Peter Lemche


                              -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                              Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af David Hall
                              Sendt: 30. juli 2007 05:43
                              Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                              Emne: Re: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa

                              Thanks for the correction. All I can get is that Abd is slave in modern Arabic; Abdi was assumed to have meant slave in ancient West Semitic. Hepa or Heba was a goddess as told by both Hittite and Hurrian peoples; thus it is a loan word borrowed from one or the other. The languages were usually dissimilar. The cultures were parallel inasmuch as they both had a myth(s) of Hepa, yet I was not able to show any further similarities.

                              David Q. Hall

                              Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...> wrote:


                              Abdi is normally here written ÌR. There has been some discussion about the first part of the name, whether or not it is really West Semitic (although I personally prefer to see it as such).

                              Hall's mistake is understandable when one forgets Bob's remarks about acculturation, including translation.

                              Niels Peter Lemche

                              -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                              Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Robert M Whiting
                              Sendt: 29. juli 2007 21:16
                              Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                              Emne: Re: Hittites in the Levant (was:"Hittites" Re: SV: [ANE-2] pulling down houses)

                              On Sun, 29 Jul 2007, David Hall wrote:

                              > The Hittite and Hurrian languages were similar.

                              To about the same extent that Akkadian and Sumerian were similar. Like
                              Sumerian and Akkadian, Hittite and Hurrian belong to completely different
                              and unrelated language groups. Hittite is Indo-European. Hurrian may be
                              related to Caucasian languages, but is generally considered an isolate; in
                              any case, it is not Indo-European. The fact that there may be many loan
                              words between the languages does not make them related any more than the
                              very large number of French loan words in English makes English a Romance
                              language. Languages that are in contact over a long period will come to
                              have surface resemblances (these are called areal features) but will
                              retain their own inherent structures.

                              > The Amarna tablets included words written by Abdi-Hepa of Jerusalem.

                              Abdi-Hepa is simply a West Semitic name. The theophoric element comes
                              from the name of a goddess of Hittite/Hurrian origin but this goddess was
                              part of the local pantheon so it is not a foreign word for these purposes.
                              The 'abd' part is, of course, the common West Semitic for "slave/servant".

                              > It has been argued that this name was Hurrian or Hittite as the two
                              > languages and cultures were similar.

                              But this is of course fallacious because the two languages are not similar
                              at all. The cultures may be similar, but that is areal rather than
                              cognate, and as long as Hepa was a local goddess, the name is good West
                              Semitic. Foreign gods are frequently adopted by local cultures and
                              religions often cross linguistic boundaries.

                              <snip>

                              Bob Whiting
                              whiting@...

                              Yahoo! Groups Links






                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                              Yahoo! Groups Links






                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                            • Niels Peter Lemche
                              Basically, ebed means worker , therefore slave and servant is more or less the same. The master does not work, his subordinate -- whatever their status --
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
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                                Basically, 'ebed means 'worker', therefore slave and servant is more or less the same. The master does not work, his subordinate -- whatever their status -- does. Therefore the king is the servant of the deity in Western Asia, and everybody the servant of the king. But, as terminology is not very refined, the basic idea is that the one in power gives the order and does not work, his servant/slave/serf -- choose for yourself -- does. No reason to involve modern, western ideas. They had no unions.

                                Niels Peter Lemche



                                -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Stern, Richard H.
                                Sendt: 30. juli 2007 19:49
                                Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                Emne: RE: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa

                                Dear colleagues:

                                Isn't 'ebed also "servant" as in 'ebed-Yahu, the servant of YHWH? So, maybe it translates better as: servant of Hepa.

                                =====================================
                                Best regards.

                                Richard H. Stern
                                rstern@... rstern@...
                                Washington, DC 20036
                                http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                                =====================================
                              • Dierk van den Berg
                                Niels, I was taught by P. Lapide (former Bar Ilan) not even to think of translating ebed (worker, servant) with slave . Best Dierk van den Berg ... more or
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
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                                  Niels,
                                  I was taught by P. Lapide (former Bar Ilan) not even to think of
                                  translating ebed (worker, servant) with 'slave'.

                                  Best
                                  Dierk van den Berg







                                  --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Basically, 'ebed means 'worker', therefore slave and servant is
                                  more or less the same. The master does not work, his subordinate --
                                  whatever their status -- does. Therefore the king is the servant of
                                  the deity in Western Asia, and everybody the servant of the king.
                                  But, as terminology is not very refined, the basic idea is that the
                                  one in power gives the order and does not work, his
                                  servant/slave/serf -- choose for yourself -- does. No reason to
                                  involve modern, western ideas. They had no unions.
                                  >
                                  > Niels Peter Lemche
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                  > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                                  af Stern, Richard H.
                                  > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 19:49
                                  > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Emne: RE: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                  >
                                  > Dear colleagues:
                                  >
                                  > Isn't 'ebed also "servant" as in 'ebed-Yahu, the servant of YHWH?
                                  So, maybe it translates better as: servant of Hepa.
                                  >
                                  > =====================================
                                  > Best regards.
                                  >
                                  > Richard H. Stern
                                  > rstern@... rstern@...
                                  > Washington, DC 20036
                                  > http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                                  > =====================================
                                  >
                                • Niels Peter Lemche
                                  Well, some of the laws indicate a status of not being free. E.g. Exod 21:2ff. Niels Peter Lemche ... Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com]
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
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                                    Well, some of the laws indicate a status of not being free. E.g. Exod 21:2ff.

                                    Niels Peter Lemche

                                    -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                    Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Dierk van den Berg
                                    Sendt: 30. juli 2007 22:59
                                    Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                    Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa

                                    Niels,
                                    I was taught by P. Lapide (former Bar Ilan) not even to think of
                                    translating ebed (worker, servant) with 'slave'.

                                    Best
                                    Dierk van den Berg







                                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Basically, 'ebed means 'worker', therefore slave and servant is
                                    more or less the same. The master does not work, his subordinate --
                                    whatever their status -- does. Therefore the king is the servant of
                                    the deity in Western Asia, and everybody the servant of the king.
                                    But, as terminology is not very refined, the basic idea is that the
                                    one in power gives the order and does not work, his
                                    servant/slave/serf -- choose for yourself -- does. No reason to
                                    involve modern, western ideas. They had no unions.
                                    >
                                    > Niels Peter Lemche
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                    > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                                    af Stern, Richard H.
                                    > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 19:49
                                    > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Emne: RE: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                    >
                                    > Dear colleagues:
                                    >
                                    > Isn't 'ebed also "servant" as in 'ebed-Yahu, the servant of YHWH?
                                    So, maybe it translates better as: servant of Hepa.
                                    >
                                    > =====================================
                                    > Best regards.
                                    >
                                    > Richard H. Stern
                                    > rstern@... rstern@...
                                    > Washington, DC 20036
                                    > http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                                    > =====================================
                                    >





                                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  • Dierk van den Berg
                                    Well, Ex 21.2f. refers to temp. soccage, not slavery, and thus to a deror after 49 shabbetot jamim in the jobel. _Dierk van den Berg ... Exod 21:2ff. ... af
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
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                                      Well, Ex 21.2f. refers to temp. soccage, not slavery, and thus to a
                                      deror after 49 shabbetot jamim in the jobel.

                                      _Dierk van den Berg



                                      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Well, some of the laws indicate a status of not being free. E.g.
                                      Exod 21:2ff.
                                      >
                                      > Niels Peter Lemche
                                      >
                                      > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                      > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                                      af Dierk van den Berg
                                      > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 22:59
                                      > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                      >
                                      > Niels,
                                      > I was taught by P. Lapide (former Bar Ilan) not even to think of
                                      > translating ebed (worker, servant) with 'slave'.
                                      >
                                      > Best
                                      > Dierk van den Berg
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Basically, 'ebed means 'worker', therefore slave and servant is
                                      > more or less the same. The master does not work, his subordinate --
                                      > whatever their status -- does. Therefore the king is the servant of
                                      > the deity in Western Asia, and everybody the servant of the king.
                                      > But, as terminology is not very refined, the basic idea is that the
                                      > one in power gives the order and does not work, his
                                      > servant/slave/serf -- choose for yourself -- does. No reason to
                                      > involve modern, western ideas. They had no unions.
                                      > >
                                      > > Niels Peter Lemche
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                      > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På
                                      vegne
                                      > af Stern, Richard H.
                                      > > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 19:49
                                      > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Emne: RE: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                      > >
                                      > > Dear colleagues:
                                      > >
                                      > > Isn't 'ebed also "servant" as in 'ebed-Yahu, the servant of
                                      YHWH?
                                      > So, maybe it translates better as: servant of Hepa.
                                      > >
                                      > > =====================================
                                      > > Best regards.
                                      > >
                                      > > Richard H. Stern
                                      > > rstern@ rstern@
                                      > > Washington, DC 20036
                                      > > http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                                      > > =====================================
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                    • Niels Peter Lemche
                                      Well, interesting suggestion. Do you have some bibliographical references? Or just free invention. PS: I wrote a couple of articles -- still quoted -- about
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
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                                        Well, interesting suggestion. Do you have some bibliographical references? Or just free invention.

                                        PS: I wrote a couple of articles -- still quoted -- about this in Vetus Testamentum 1975 and 1976, and JNES 1979.

                                        Niels Peter Lemche



                                        -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                        Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Dierk van den Berg
                                        Sendt: 30. juli 2007 23:24
                                        Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                        Emne: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa

                                        Well, Ex 21.2f. refers to temp. soccage, not slavery, and thus to a
                                        deror after 49 shabbetot jamim in the jobel.

                                        _Dierk van den Berg
                                      • Tory Thorpe
                                        Dear NPL, Are you still of the opinion that the ebed laws in the Book of the Covenant were taken over from Canaanites despite the absence of a codex in Western
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
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                                          Dear NPL,
                                          Are you still of the opinion that the ebed laws in the Book of the
                                          Covenant were taken over from Canaanites despite the absence of a
                                          codex in Western Asia?

                                          Tory Thorpe


                                          On Jul 30, 2007, at 5:11 PM, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

                                          > Well, some of the laws indicate a status of not being free. E.g.
                                          > Exod 21:2ff.
                                          >
                                          > Niels Peter Lemche
                                          >
                                          > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                          > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                                          > af Dierk van den Berg
                                          > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 22:59
                                          > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                          >
                                          > Niels,
                                          > I was taught by P. Lapide (former Bar Ilan) not even to think of
                                          > translating ebed (worker, servant) with 'slave'.
                                          >
                                          > Best
                                          > Dierk van den Berg
                                          >
                                          > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Basically, 'ebed means 'worker', therefore slave and servant is
                                          > more or less the same. The master does not work, his subordinate --
                                          > whatever their status -- does. Therefore the king is the servant of
                                          > the deity in Western Asia, and everybody the servant of the king.
                                          > But, as terminology is not very refined, the basic idea is that the
                                          > one in power gives the order and does not work, his
                                          > servant/slave/serf -- choose for yourself -- does. No reason to
                                          > involve modern, western ideas. They had no unions.
                                          > >
                                          > > Niels Peter Lemche
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                          > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                                          > af Stern, Richard H.
                                          > > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 19:49
                                          > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Emne: RE: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                          > >
                                          > > Dear colleagues:
                                          > >
                                          > > Isn't 'ebed also "servant" as in 'ebed-Yahu, the servant of YHWH?
                                          > So, maybe it translates better as: servant of Hepa.
                                          > >
                                          > > =====================================
                                          > > Best regards.
                                          > >
                                          > > Richard H. Stern
                                          > > rstern@... rstern@...
                                          > > Washington, DC 20036
                                          > > http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                                          > > =====================================
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >



                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Niels Peter Lemche
                                          Dear Tory, No, the Book of Covenant belongs squarely within the Babylonian Law Tradition. And my attitude to that was formed by Kraus Geneva 1969, and
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
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                                            Dear Tory,

                                            No, the Book of Covenant belongs squarely within the Babylonian Law Tradition. And my attitude to that was formed by Kraus Geneva 1969, and confirmed by Martha Roth's introduction to her translations in the SBL Series.

                                            I wrote about the missing laws from Syria and Palestine in the Kent Law Review about ten years ago (based on a symposium at the Robbins Collection at Berkeley in 1995).

                                            Interesting ideas about Exod 21:2 ff. also in Oswald Loretz's book about the Habiru in the BZAW series.

                                            Niels Peter Lemche



                                            -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                            Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Tory Thorpe
                                            Sendt: 30. juli 2007 23:33
                                            Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                            Emne: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa

                                            Dear NPL,
                                            Are you still of the opinion that the ebed laws in the Book of the
                                            Covenant were taken over from Canaanites despite the absence of a
                                            codex in Western Asia?

                                            Tory Thorpe


                                            On Jul 30, 2007, at 5:11 PM, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

                                            > Well, some of the laws indicate a status of not being free. E.g.
                                            > Exod 21:2ff.
                                            >
                                            > Niels Peter Lemche
                                            >
                                            > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                            > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                                            > af Dierk van den Berg
                                            > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 22:59
                                            > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                            >
                                            > Niels,
                                            > I was taught by P. Lapide (former Bar Ilan) not even to think of
                                            > translating ebed (worker, servant) with 'slave'.
                                            >
                                            > Best
                                            > Dierk van den Berg
                                            >
                                            > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Basically, 'ebed means 'worker', therefore slave and servant is
                                            > more or less the same. The master does not work, his subordinate --
                                            > whatever their status -- does. Therefore the king is the servant of
                                            > the deity in Western Asia, and everybody the servant of the king.
                                            > But, as terminology is not very refined, the basic idea is that the
                                            > one in power gives the order and does not work, his
                                            > servant/slave/serf -- choose for yourself -- does. No reason to
                                            > involve modern, western ideas. They had no unions.
                                            > >
                                            > > Niels Peter Lemche
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                            > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                                            > af Stern, Richard H.
                                            > > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 19:49
                                            > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > Emne: RE: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                            > >
                                            > > Dear colleagues:
                                            > >
                                            > > Isn't 'ebed also "servant" as in 'ebed-Yahu, the servant of YHWH?
                                            > So, maybe it translates better as: servant of Hepa.
                                            > >
                                            > > =====================================
                                            > > Best regards.
                                            > >
                                            > > Richard H. Stern
                                            > > rstern@... rstern@...
                                            > > Washington, DC 20036
                                            > > http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                                            > > =====================================
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >



                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          • Dierk van den Berg
                                            Release (deror) already after severn years in the shemittah acc. Ex 21.2, cf. Neh 10.32b; Is 61.2, not only in the jobel after up to 49 years. cf. Johann
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
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                                              Release (deror) already after severn years in the shemittah acc. Ex
                                              21.2, cf. Neh 10.32b; Is 61.2, not only in the jobel after up to 49
                                              years.

                                              cf. Johann Maier_Die Qumran Essener, vol III_Munich 1996, pp. 104-111

                                              Dierk v/d Berg









                                              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Well, interesting suggestion. Do you have some bibliographical
                                              references? Or just free invention.
                                              >
                                              > PS: I wrote a couple of articles -- still quoted -- about this in
                                              Vetus Testamentum 1975 and 1976, and JNES 1979.
                                              >
                                              > Niels Peter Lemche
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                              > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                                              af Dierk van den Berg
                                              > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 23:24
                                              > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Emne: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                              >
                                              > Well, Ex 21.2f. refers to temp. soccage, not slavery, and thus to a
                                              > deror after 49 shabbetot jamim in the jobel.
                                              >
                                              > _Dierk van den Berg
                                              >
                                            • Dierk van den Berg
                                              Niels, perhaps I should add P. Lapide_Ist die Bibel richtig übersetzt, vol I_Guetersloh 1996, p.65f. on Ex 21.2f. The seminar was in the early 90s, long ago.
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
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                                                Niels,

                                                perhaps I should add P. Lapide_Ist die Bibel richtig übersetzt, vol
                                                I_Guetersloh 1996, p.65f. on Ex 21.2f.

                                                The seminar was in the early 90s, long ago.

                                                _Dierk v/d Berg



                                                --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Well, interesting suggestion. Do you have some bibliographical
                                                references? Or just free invention.
                                                >
                                                > PS: I wrote a couple of articles -- still quoted -- about this in
                                                Vetus Testamentum 1975 and 1976, and JNES 1979.
                                                >
                                                > Niels Peter Lemche
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                                > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                                                af Dierk van den Berg
                                                > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 23:24
                                                > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Emne: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                                >
                                                > Well, Ex 21.2f. refers to temp. soccage, not slavery, and thus to a
                                                > deror after 49 shabbetot jamim in the jobel.
                                                >
                                                > _Dierk van den Berg
                                                >
                                              • Tory Thorpe
                                                Could you mean Kraus paper in Geneva NS 8 (1960)? Not having seen your paper in the Kent Law Review, thanks for the reference, would it be correct to say, in
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
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                                                  Could you mean Kraus' paper in Geneva NS 8 (1960)? Not having seen
                                                  your paper in the Kent Law Review, thanks for the reference, would it
                                                  be correct to say, in your view, that West Semitic states in the 2nd
                                                  millennium BCE derived their code of laws from the Babylonian legal
                                                  tradition and Weltanschauung?

                                                  Tory Thorpe


                                                  On Jul 30, 2007, at 5:38 PM, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

                                                  > Dear Tory,
                                                  >
                                                  > No, the Book of Covenant belongs squarely within the Babylonian Law
                                                  > Tradition. And my attitude to that was formed by Kraus Geneva 1969,
                                                  > and confirmed by Martha Roth's introduction to her translations in
                                                  > the SBL Series.
                                                  >
                                                  > I wrote about the missing laws from Syria and Palestine in the Kent
                                                  > Law Review about ten years ago (based on a symposium at the Robbins
                                                  > Collection at Berkeley in 1995).
                                                  >
                                                  > Interesting ideas about Exod 21:2 ff. also in Oswald Loretz's book
                                                  > about the Habiru in the BZAW series.
                                                  >
                                                  > Niels Peter Lemche
                                                  >
                                                  > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                                  > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                                                  > af Tory Thorpe
                                                  > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 23:33
                                                  > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Emne: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                                  >
                                                  > Dear NPL,
                                                  > Are you still of the opinion that the ebed laws in the Book of the
                                                  > Covenant were taken over from Canaanites despite the absence of a
                                                  > codex in Western Asia?
                                                  >
                                                  > Tory Thorpe
                                                  >
                                                  > On Jul 30, 2007, at 5:11 PM, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > Well, some of the laws indicate a status of not being free. E.g.
                                                  > > Exod 21:2ff.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Niels Peter Lemche
                                                  > >
                                                  > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                                  > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                                                  > > af Dierk van den Berg
                                                  > > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 22:59
                                                  > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Niels,
                                                  > > I was taught by P. Lapide (former Bar Ilan) not even to think of
                                                  > > translating ebed (worker, servant) with 'slave'.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Best
                                                  > > Dierk van den Berg
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Basically, 'ebed means 'worker', therefore slave and servant is
                                                  > > more or less the same. The master does not work, his subordinate --
                                                  > > whatever their status -- does. Therefore the king is the servant of
                                                  > > the deity in Western Asia, and everybody the servant of the king.
                                                  > > But, as terminology is not very refined, the basic idea is that the
                                                  > > one in power gives the order and does not work, his
                                                  > > servant/slave/serf -- choose for yourself -- does. No reason to
                                                  > > involve modern, western ideas. They had no unions.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Niels Peter Lemche
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                                  > > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                                                  > > af Stern, Richard H.
                                                  > > > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 19:49
                                                  > > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > > Emne: RE: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Dear colleagues:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Isn't 'ebed also "servant" as in 'ebed-Yahu, the servant of YHWH?
                                                  > > So, maybe it translates better as: servant of Hepa.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > =====================================
                                                  > > > Best regards.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Richard H. Stern
                                                  > > > rstern@... rstern@...
                                                  > > > Washington, DC 20036
                                                  > > > http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                                                  > > > =====================================
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >
                                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >



                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Niels Peter Lemche
                                                  No, they probably did not care much about written law. Then there is the question of the status of the Mesopotamian law tradition. I will suggest that you look
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
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                                                    No, they probably did not care much about written law. Then there is the question of the status of the Mesopotamian law tradition. I will suggest that you look up Martha Roth's essay, and maybe some of the Assyriologists heremay step in.

                                                    Niels Peter Lemche



                                                    -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                                    Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Tory Thorpe
                                                    Sendt: 31. juli 2007 00:31
                                                    Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Emne: Re: SV: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa

                                                    Could you mean Kraus' paper in Geneva NS 8 (1960)? Not having seen
                                                    your paper in the Kent Law Review, thanks for the reference, would it
                                                    be correct to say, in your view, that West Semitic states in the 2nd
                                                    millennium BCE derived their code of laws from the Babylonian legal
                                                    tradition and Weltanschauung?

                                                    Tory Thorpe


                                                    On Jul 30, 2007, at 5:38 PM, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

                                                    > Dear Tory,
                                                    >
                                                    > No, the Book of Covenant belongs squarely within the Babylonian Law
                                                    > Tradition. And my attitude to that was formed by Kraus Geneva 1969,
                                                    > and confirmed by Martha Roth's introduction to her translations in
                                                    > the SBL Series.
                                                    >
                                                    > I wrote about the missing laws from Syria and Palestine in the Kent
                                                    > Law Review about ten years ago (based on a symposium at the Robbins
                                                    > Collection at Berkeley in 1995).
                                                    >
                                                    > Interesting ideas about Exod 21:2 ff. also in Oswald Loretz's book
                                                    > about the Habiru in the BZAW series.
                                                    >
                                                    > Niels Peter Lemche
                                                    >
                                                  • Niels Peter Lemche
                                                    OK, I was afraid that you were quoting something important relating to the question. I suppose that you read some of the titles directly relevant to the
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Jul 30, 2007
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                                                      OK, I was afraid that you were quoting something important relating to the question.

                                                      I suppose that you read some of the titles directly relevant to the question. Some of this is old, I know, but still worth reading. You could start with my own articles which at least try to explain the relations between Exod 21:2-11; Leviticus 25; Deuteronomy 15; Jeremiah 34, but also has a saying about Nehemiah. Then Loretz is good and very different, and something about the andurarum -- misharum tradition in the ANE.

                                                      It's called slavery because of debts, you know.

                                                      The Chicago kent Law Review is: Justice in Western Asia in Antiquity, or: Why No Laws Were Needed!, KLR 70 (1995), 1695-1716.

                                                      More recent on this John Van Seters, A Law Book for the Diaspora: Revision in the Study of the Covenant Code (Oxford University, 2003), and the ongoing debate between him and Otto and Jackson (his reply to them in the last issue of SJOT).

                                                      Niels Peter Lemche



                                                      -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                                      Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Dierk van den Berg
                                                      Sendt: 30. juli 2007 23:57
                                                      Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Emne: Re: SV: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa

                                                      Release (deror) already after severn years in the shemittah acc. Ex
                                                      21.2, cf. Neh 10.32b; Is 61.2, not only in the jobel after up to 49
                                                      years.

                                                      cf. Johann Maier_Die Qumran Essener, vol III_Munich 1996, pp. 104-111

                                                      Dierk v/d Berg









                                                      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Well, interesting suggestion. Do you have some bibliographical
                                                      references? Or just free invention.
                                                      >
                                                      > PS: I wrote a couple of articles -- still quoted -- about this in
                                                      Vetus Testamentum 1975 and 1976, and JNES 1979.
                                                      >
                                                      > Niels Peter Lemche
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                                      > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                                                      af Dierk van den Berg
                                                      > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 23:24
                                                      > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > Emne: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                                      >
                                                      > Well, Ex 21.2f. refers to temp. soccage, not slavery, and thus to a
                                                      > deror after 49 shabbetot jamim in the jobel.
                                                      >
                                                      > _Dierk van den Berg
                                                      >





                                                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    • George F Somsel
                                                      It is more correctly indentureship, not socage. george gfsomsel Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Jul 31, 2007
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                                                        It is more correctly indentureship, not socage.

                                                        george
                                                        gfsomsel

                                                        Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
                                                        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                                        defend the truth till death.

                                                        - Jan Hus
                                                        _________



                                                        ----- Original Message ----
                                                        From: Dierk van den Berg <haGalil@...>
                                                        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 4:23:36 PM
                                                        Subject: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa

                                                        Well, Ex 21.2f. refers to temp. soccage, not slavery, and thus to a
                                                        deror after 49 shabbetot jamim in the jobel.

                                                        _Dierk van den Berg

                                                        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > Well, some of the laws indicate a status of not being free. E.g.
                                                        Exod 21:2ff.
                                                        >
                                                        > Niels Peter Lemche
                                                        >
                                                        > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-- ---
                                                        > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. com] På vegne
                                                        af Dierk van den Berg
                                                        > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 22:59
                                                        > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                                                        > Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                                        >
                                                        > Niels,
                                                        > I was taught by P. Lapide (former Bar Ilan) not even to think of
                                                        > translating ebed (worker, servant) with 'slave'.
                                                        >
                                                        > Best
                                                        > Dierk van den Berg
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@> wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Basically, 'ebed means 'worker', therefore slave and servant is
                                                        > more or less the same. The master does not work, his subordinate --
                                                        > whatever their status -- does. Therefore the king is the servant of
                                                        > the deity in Western Asia, and everybody the servant of the king.
                                                        > But, as terminology is not very refined, the basic idea is that the
                                                        > one in power gives the order and does not work, his
                                                        > servant/slave/ serf -- choose for yourself -- does. No reason to
                                                        > involve modern, western ideas. They had no unions.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Niels Peter Lemche
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-- ---
                                                        > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. com] På
                                                        vegne
                                                        > af Stern, Richard H.
                                                        > > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 19:49
                                                        > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                                                        > > Emne: RE: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Dear colleagues:
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Isn't 'ebed also "servant" as in 'ebed-Yahu, the servant of
                                                        YHWH?
                                                        > So, maybe it translates better as: servant of Hepa.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > ============ ========= ========= =======
                                                        > > Best regards.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Richard H. Stern
                                                        > > rstern@ rstern@
                                                        > > Washington, DC 20036
                                                        > > http://docs. law.gwu.edu/ facweb/claw/ rhs1.htm
                                                        > > ============ ========= ========= =======
                                                        > >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                        >






                                                        ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                                                        http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433

                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      • Dierk van den Berg
                                                        Well, I will read the articles mentioned. Thanks. Appraisal later, not before. And I hope you have read the articles I have mentioned. Nevertheless it is still
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Jul 31, 2007
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                                                          Well, I will read the articles mentioned. Thanks. Appraisal later,
                                                          not before. And I hope you have read the articles I have mentioned.

                                                          Nevertheless it is still socage IMO due to the forced release from
                                                          the debris, you know.That's something unkommon in slaveholder
                                                          societies.

                                                          Dierk van den Berg



                                                          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > OK, I was afraid that you were quoting something important relating
                                                          to the question.
                                                          >
                                                          > I suppose that you read some of the titles directly relevant to the
                                                          question. Some of this is old, I know, but still worth reading. You
                                                          could start with my own articles which at least try to explain the
                                                          relations between Exod 21:2-11; Leviticus 25; Deuteronomy 15;
                                                          Jeremiah 34, but also has a saying about Nehemiah. Then Loretz is
                                                          good and very different, and something about the andurarum --
                                                          misharum tradition in the ANE.
                                                          >
                                                          > It's called slavery because of debts, you know.
                                                          >
                                                          > The Chicago kent Law Review is: Justice in Western Asia in
                                                          Antiquity, or: Why No Laws Were Needed!, KLR 70 (1995), 1695-1716.
                                                          >
                                                          > More recent on this John Van Seters, A Law Book for the Diaspora:
                                                          Revision in the Study of the Covenant Code (Oxford University, 2003),
                                                          and the ongoing debate between him and Otto and Jackson (his reply to
                                                          them in the last issue of SJOT).
                                                          >
                                                          > Niels Peter Lemche
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                                          > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
                                                          af Dierk van den Berg
                                                          > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 23:57
                                                          > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > Emne: Re: SV: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                                          >
                                                          > Release (deror) already after severn years in the shemittah acc. Ex
                                                          > 21.2, cf. Neh 10.32b; Is 61.2, not only in the jobel after up to 49
                                                          > years.
                                                          >
                                                          > cf. Johann Maier_Die Qumran Essener, vol III_Munich 1996, pp. 104-
                                                          111
                                                          >
                                                          > Dierk v/d Berg
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@> wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Well, interesting suggestion. Do you have some bibliographical
                                                          > references? Or just free invention.
                                                          > >
                                                          > > PS: I wrote a couple of articles -- still quoted -- about this in
                                                          > Vetus Testamentum 1975 and 1976, and JNES 1979.
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Niels Peter Lemche
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                                          > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På
                                                          vegne
                                                          > af Dierk van den Berg
                                                          > > Sendt: 30. juli 2007 23:24
                                                          > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > > Emne: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Abdi-Hepa
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Well, Ex 21.2f. refers to temp. soccage, not slavery, and thus to
                                                          a
                                                          > > deror after 49 shabbetot jamim in the jobel.
                                                          > >
                                                          > > _Dierk van den Berg
                                                          > >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                          >
                                                        • Ariel L. Szczupak
                                                          ... I just recalled a beautiful example of the semantic range of the root. Num 4:47 has, about what was done in the tabernacle, ... la avod avodat avoda
                                                          Message 28 of 28 , Jul 31, 2007
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                                                            At 10:51 AM 7/30/2007, Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:
                                                            >At 09:45 AM 7/30/2007, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            >>Dear David,
                                                            >>
                                                            >>Some Hebrew needed? 'ebed in Hebrew. The common word for a slave in
                                                            >>West Semitic.
                                                            >
                                                            >ayin-bet-dalet root. the center of the semantic range is "work",
                                                            >extending to serve, slave, worship, etc.

                                                            I just recalled a beautiful example of the semantic range of the
                                                            root. Num 4:47 has, about what was done in the tabernacle, "...
                                                            la'avod 'avodat 'avoda ve'avodat masa ...". [KJV translates "do the
                                                            service of the ministry, and the service of the burden" and NAS
                                                            translates "do the work of service and the work of carrying"]



                                                            Ariel.

                                                            [100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto ergo sum!]

                                                            ---
                                                            Ariel L. Szczupak
                                                            AMIS-JLM (Ricercar Ltd.)
                                                            POB 4707, Jerusalem, Israel 91401
                                                            Phone: +972-2-5619660 Fax: +972-2-5634203
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